"Looking back at what I just wrote, I feel pretty embarrassed to admit I ever bought in to this nonsense. But, here I am, 50 years later, trying to decide whether to laugh or cry about it."
That right there is my idea of a healthy frame of mind!
Back in my TWI-days I was a very forgiving person when it came to interacting with others cuz I believed it was the right thing to do. But when it came to myself – I had a hard time breaking the cycle of guilt that seemed to get more and more ramped up the more I got involved in TWI. Trying to please leadership I’d get caught up in their guilt-inducing-tirades…guilt and frustration…I got yelled at for not rushing over to “batten down the hatches” of the corps tents when there was a torrential downpour. When asked why I didn’t – I replied “because Rev. Martindale addressed us all huddled under the main tent and said don’t ANYONE leave the tent”. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
I think you’re correct on wierwille’s definition of the unforgiveable sin…since I’ve left TWI, I keep revising my own definitions of TWI-definitions...and so…the unforgiveable sin in TWI was questioning wierwille and other leadership.... ....that’s why the greatest sin a TWI-believer can commit is to break the first and great commandment…to NOT love wierwille with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength…the second is like unto it – thou shalt love thy leadership just like you love wierwille. On these 2 commandments hang all the PFAL books and TWI-programs.
I know all of this is true. I know the abuse is real.
I know what is available: devil seed rebirth. wedges. permanence
but I don't know how to get it or what to do with it once you've got it.
I'm fascinated. I'll just beleeeve for someone to come through with more details.
There never was any more detail. It was vague... and the unspoken truth was that you just had to take it on faith.
The people recruited into Wierwille's cult in the 1970s and 80s were young people, teens to young adults. FEW had the kind of analytical mind back then to even form the questions you have just posed. If anyone DID form and ask those questions, they either decided on their own that they didn't need to belong to this newfangled subculture or if they did get sucked in (by the undertow, as it were), if they mustered up the gumption to articulate the questions and asked them out loud, they were sent packing (marked and avoided) before they knew what hit them.
There never was any more detail. It was vague... and the unspoken truth was that you just had to take it on faith.
The people recruited into Wierwille's cult in the 1970s and 80s were young people, teens to young adults. FEW had the kind of analytical mind back then to even form the questions you have just posed. If anyone DID form and ask those questions, they either decided on their own that they didn't need to belong to this newfangled subculture or if they did get sucked in (by the undertow, as it were), if they mustered up the gumption to articulate the questions and asked them out loud, they were sent packing (marked and avoided) before they knew what hit them.
Thank you, Rocky.
So, it's a manufactured device designed to cover the floors with eggshells. A completely contrived wicked doctrine designed to cast a pall of fear and keep everyone in line, committed, obsequious. It's an invented, sinister tool for abuse.
This is both disappointing and expected news.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but its rotting carcass has contaminated a well from which people still drink.
I should add that, because it was considered non-retractable, it gave leadership an excuse to encourage followers to ostracize family and friends. It was a pretty handy tool to justify isolationism. No need to continue your relationship with them because they were beyond the point of ever being helped.
I should add that, because it was considered non-retractable, it gave leadership an excuse to encourage followers to ostracize family and friends. It was a pretty handy tool to justify isolationism. No need to continue your relationship with them because they were beyond the point of ever being helped.
As I read this it sounded very similar to the "no contact" strategy. Which is what someone leaving TWI might want to employ with TWI - as a means to establish boundaries.
Ostracism/ silent treatment/ mark and avoid (in TWI) VS No contact
It's the same thing with a different attitude behind it.
As I read this it sounded very similar to the "no contact" strategy. Which is what someone leaving TWI might want to employ with TWI - as a means to establish boundaries.
Ostracism/ silent treatment/ mark and avoid (in TWI) VS No contact
It's the same thing with a different attitude behind it.
Not the same thing.
"No contact" is, as you point out, a means to establish boundaries with the NPD. It's an essential tactic for survival - literally deployed to SAVE one's life.
The NPD deploys the tactics of ostracism, silent treatment and m&a in order to KILL and DESTROY.
But if one must MAKE it fit...well, there's a glove for that.
"No contact" is, as you point out, a means to establish boundaries with the NPD. It's an essential tactic for survival - literally deployed to SAVE one's life.
The NPD deploys the tactics of ostracism, silent treatment and m&a in order to KILL and DESTROY.
But if one must MAKE it fit...well, there's a glove for that.
I'm just following instructions. They told me to operate Power from on/while High.
What about sanctions? Is that no contact or ostracism?
Sanctions against Russia? Or against 18th century French cemeteries?
I need to understand the CONTEXT of your question so I may know how to answer, with either obfuscation or deflection. The context is critical to self interpreting a pronoun.
Sanctions against Russia? Or against 18th century French cemeteries?
I need to understand the CONTEXT of your question so I may know how to answer, with either obfuscation or deflection. The context is critical to self interpreting a pronoun.
I thought the context was the attitude behind the action.
I thought the context was the attitude behind the action.
The context is lots of things, see? It's so simple, if you work it. It's Pete throwing snowballs, It's Maggie jumping on Johnny. It's lots of things, really.
If you can't do it the right way, you ought to try it VP's way. It's AVAILABLE. Like this rotten corpse. No one said you had to eat of it under the glow of red candles. That's right! No one said you had to. It's your free will choice to do as ol' VP will fool well please.
Alliteration. Even assonance. Bless your little hearts.
I'm gonna go with French Cemeteries, in that case.
We were trained Way D to "keep your friends at arms length". That's for friends. You don't want to get to close to those types.
People are essentially dead. The dead of course are NOT alive.
The purpose of ostracism is a death sentence. No contact is as if someone is dead to you.
This is a typical strategy of NPDs: Create distance and eventually isolate the victim from friends and family. Going so far as gaslighting the victim to BELIEVE that their friends were never true friends or even real friends, they were counterfeits - the result is no friends nor family for the victim. (I have no friends when it comes to the word = your friends were never really your friends. This is a lie propagated from devil seed.)
Yes, In a way, no contact is as if someone is dead to you, because one must come to the understanding that the NPD is dead inside. The NPD's greatest fear is being exposed. In other words, the NPD is afraid of the Truth. And, as pointed out before, what does the NPD hate more than anything? Herself. She hates the truth of herself.
Yes, the purpose of ostracism is to KILL, to make life dead. The purpose of no contact with a NPD is to SAVE one's life, to survive, to thrive, to see the Truth.
I think from a superficial, semantic perspective, it appears that they are two sides of the same coin. The distinction seems subtle and nuanced, because it is, but it's still a clear distinction. One can't kill the NPD through no contact, one can only save one's self - the NPD will destroy itself.
The clear distinction is important so the victim doesn't self-deceive into the trap of guilt for killing. The victim must see this distinction as life SAVING. No contact, in the context of NPDs like VPW, is NOT the same as ostracism, not even close, not in anyway.
Prepositions, ya know....and condescensio.... even semicolons...even hook shots.... then, Then, THEN...
I should add that, because it was considered non-retractable, it gave leadership an excuse to encourage followers to ostracize family and friends. It was a pretty handy tool to justify isolationism. No need to continue your relationship with them because they were beyond the point of ever being helped.
Anyway, isolation is a thing.
Pushing people away to isolate others OR to self isolate are two other things.
While pushing others away you could be isolating yourself.
While pushing others away you could be isolating them.
Is that the case? To hide from the laughter? Or are they sick?
The genitive case? When you know that sickness is available, and you know how (H-O-W) to get sick, you must laugh - that's what to do with it once you've got it, laugh. Now, does laughter interpret the sickness or does the hiding interpret itself?
In the Corps teaching on Romas in 1973 Loy Craig asks vic about this. I'm not sure if Craig is trying to justify victor or himself, but the exchange is revealing, in spite of victor's cryptic answer. And you can see vic getting annoyed with Craig for pressing him.
On 6/5/2022 at 3:25 PM, OldSkool said:
Wow....just wow......and I don't mean the program. He actually said that his behavior that people do not see does not matter unless you believe it will. That NOT biblical in any way, shape of form. It is so very revealing. Do whatever you want as long as you believe it is ok then it is. No conscience, just pure BS rationilization. Occultist believe "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" (to quoate Aleister Crowley)...in other words...do whatever you want. It won't matter unless you believe it will. And people call this guy a man of God?
Im not tooting my own horn with what I am about to say because I stumble daily as a Christian. I was at work on Friday and we have a garage loaded with electrical construction materials. I need 4 lights for my bathroom light fixture at home. I seriously almost swiped a box and put them into my car to use at home. Nobody would have ever known. I didn't because God sees all and stealing is wrong. I will not steal, not even a penny. If I do it accidentally then I would want to restore ten fold what was taken.
My point - Why the heck didn't VPW use this as an example to teach Christian character? I would have mad respect for him if he said something to the effect of "Well people may not see what you do, but God does always so you want to always do the best you can to live the Bible"....but no....he reveals his true inner nature of being a man-pleaser and shows no concern for what Almighty God sees him do. And I bet God saw some real ugliness.
Craig:How much does your behavior that people do not see, influence your example to them?
vpw:It doesn’t, unless you believe it will.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
OldSkool, thanks for pointing that out…that’s another big error I missed on this thread …also thanks to Nathan_Jr for the partial 1973 corps teaching transcript…all I can say is absolutely mind-boggling!
…I think there’s an alternate translation in the False Teachers’ Guide To Indoctrinating Impressionable Young Minds (or FTGTIIYM for short) of an old familiar proverb that says “What they don’t know about you won’t hurt them.”
While we’re talking about translation work here’s an alternate translation of an inspirational quote by Napoleon Hill that I found in the New Incomprehensible And Almost Inconceivable But Definitely Diabolical Version Of Tips And Tricks For Shysters And Cult Leaders (or NIAAIBDDVOTATFSACLfor short): Whatever minds you can deceive with something up your sleeve they’re the ones you can thieve
For those interested in the original exposé on shysters and cult leaders you can check out these:
A wedge. Even in the original. Lambano that isolation. Mug Maggie. Force that sharing.
It is eerie how completely different cults like Scientology and The Way having polar opposite views and products all become so similar in how they execute.
Isolate and control.
Consume all of the followers time and money with activity to mask that they truly have nothing to help.
Who knows whether Maggie will survive the Muggings.
The state uses social media to influence behavior.
They also have these YouTube videos of people praising China and mocking very specific individuals in The West. It's hilarious watching how scripted the emotions are. They basically show up at your door one day with a camera and some threats and say "read this".
That's maybe 1.4 billion people, but it's now understood China has even been making those numbers up. It's probably overestimated by over 100 million people. Still bigger than all cults combined.
It is eerie how completely different cults like Scientology and The Way having polar opposite views and products all become so similar in how they execute.
Isolate and control.
Consume all of the followers time and money with activity to mask that they truly have nothing to help.
Who knows whether Maggie will survive the Muggings.
Right. The defining characteristics have little to do with dogmatic beliefs. In just the last few years, them have been some excellent threads here diving deep into cult structure and behavior. And though a search of Scientology will yield results, I'm not sure enough has been said about how VPW even plagiarized L. Ron Hubbard's tactics.
They were contemporaries. LRH had his Sea Org, VPW had his Corps. LRH was a brutal master of m&a. The classes and levels and always something new to purchase - required and mandated, but through cheerful free will choice. The lock box... on and on.
All cults operate the same. Dogmatic beliefs, whether spaceships or devil seed, are merely incidental The stupidity of belief does not a cult make; it's that the cult can convince people these beliefs are sound - through isolation and control.
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Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.
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Nathan_Jr
I know all of this is true. I know the abuse is real.
I know what is available: devil seed rebirth. wedges. permanence
but I don't know how to get it or what to do with it once you've got it.
please.
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Rocky
There never was any more detail. It was vague... and the unspoken truth was that you just had to take it on faith.
The people recruited into Wierwille's cult in the 1970s and 80s were young people, teens to young adults. FEW had the kind of analytical mind back then to even form the questions you have just posed. If anyone DID form and ask those questions, they either decided on their own that they didn't need to belong to this newfangled subculture or if they did get sucked in (by the undertow, as it were), if they mustered up the gumption to articulate the questions and asked them out loud, they were sent packing (marked and avoided) before they knew what hit them.
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Nathan_Jr
Thank you, Rocky.
So, it's a manufactured device designed to cover the floors with eggshells. A completely contrived wicked doctrine designed to cast a pall of fear and keep everyone in line, committed, obsequious. It's an invented, sinister tool for abuse.
This is both disappointing and expected news.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but its rotting carcass has contaminated a well from which people still drink.
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waysider
I should add that, because it was considered non-retractable, it gave leadership an excuse to encourage followers to ostracize family and friends. It was a pretty handy tool to justify isolationism. No need to continue your relationship with them because they were beyond the point of ever being helped.
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Bolshevik
As I read this it sounded very similar to the "no contact" strategy. Which is what someone leaving TWI might want to employ with TWI - as a means to establish boundaries.
Ostracism/ silent treatment/ mark and avoid (in TWI) VS No contact
It's the same thing with a different attitude behind it.
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Nathan_Jr
Not the same thing.
"No contact" is, as you point out, a means to establish boundaries with the NPD. It's an essential tactic for survival - literally deployed to SAVE one's life.
The NPD deploys the tactics of ostracism, silent treatment and m&a in order to KILL and DESTROY.
But if one must MAKE it fit...well, there's a glove for that.
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Bolshevik
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Nathan_Jr
Well, if that just isn't what to do with it once you've got it, I'll jump up on Johnny!
Bless your little hearts... the original, you know... to/for.... interpretations and all that...
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Bolshevik
I'm just following instructions. They told me to operate Power from on/while High.
What about sanctions? Is that no contact or ostracism?
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Nathan_Jr
Sanctions against Russia? Or against 18th century French cemeteries?
I need to understand the CONTEXT of your question so I may know how to answer, with either obfuscation or deflection. The context is critical to self interpreting a pronoun.
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Bolshevik
I thought the context was the attitude behind the action.
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Nathan_Jr
The context is lots of things, see? It's so simple, if you work it. It's Pete throwing snowballs, It's Maggie jumping on Johnny. It's lots of things, really.
If you can't do it the right way, you ought to try it VP's way. It's AVAILABLE. Like this rotten corpse. No one said you had to eat of it under the glow of red candles. That's right! No one said you had to. It's your free will choice to do as ol' VP will fool well please.
Alliteration. Even assonance. Bless your little hearts.
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Bolshevik
I'm gonna go with French Cemeteries, in that case.
We were trained Way D to "keep your friends at arms length". That's for friends. You don't want to get too close to those types.
People are essentially dead. The dead of course are NOT alive.
The purpose of ostracism is a death sentence. No contact is as if someone is dead to you.
Edited by Bolshevikwords that sound like other words
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Nathan_Jr
This is a typical strategy of NPDs: Create distance and eventually isolate the victim from friends and family. Going so far as gaslighting the victim to BELIEVE that their friends were never true friends or even real friends, they were counterfeits - the result is no friends nor family for the victim. (I have no friends when it comes to the word = your friends were never really your friends. This is a lie propagated from devil seed.)
Yes, In a way, no contact is as if someone is dead to you, because one must come to the understanding that the NPD is dead inside. The NPD's greatest fear is being exposed. In other words, the NPD is afraid of the Truth. And, as pointed out before, what does the NPD hate more than anything? Herself. She hates the truth of herself.
Yes, the purpose of ostracism is to KILL, to make life dead. The purpose of no contact with a NPD is to SAVE one's life, to survive, to thrive, to see the Truth.
I think from a superficial, semantic perspective, it appears that they are two sides of the same coin. The distinction seems subtle and nuanced, because it is, but it's still a clear distinction. One can't kill the NPD through no contact, one can only save one's self - the NPD will destroy itself.
The clear distinction is important so the victim doesn't self-deceive into the trap of guilt for killing. The victim must see this distinction as life SAVING. No contact, in the context of NPDs like VPW, is NOT the same as ostracism, not even close, not in anyway.
Prepositions, ya know....and condescensio.... even semicolons...even hook shots.... then, Then, THEN...
Edited by Nathan_JrOh, those gloves
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Bolshevik
Victim. Not a Victor.
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Bolshevik
Anyway, isolation is a thing.
Pushing people away to isolate others OR to self isolate are two other things.
While pushing others away you could be isolating yourself.
While pushing others away you could be isolating them.
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Nathan_Jr
Yep. All cults and cult followers must isolate.
A wedge. Even in the original. Lambano that isolation. Mug Maggie. Force that sharing.
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Bolshevik
Is that the case? To hide from the laughter? Or are they sick?
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Nathan_Jr
The genitive case? When you know that sickness is available, and you know how (H-O-W) to get sick, you must laugh - that's what to do with it once you've got it, laugh. Now, does laughter interpret the sickness or does the hiding interpret itself?
Pretty straightforward like a wedge. Or a glove.
Edited by Nathan_JrThrowing snowballs at Pete
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T-Bone
Craig: How much does your behavior that people do not see, influence your example to them?
vpw: It doesn’t, unless you believe it will.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
OldSkool, thanks for pointing that out…that’s another big error I missed on this thread
…also thanks to Nathan_Jr for the partial 1973 corps teaching transcript…all I can say is absolutely mind-boggling!
…I think there’s an alternate translation in the False Teachers’ Guide To Indoctrinating Impressionable Young Minds (or FTGTIIYM for short) of an old familiar proverb that says “What they don’t know about you won’t hurt them.”
While we’re talking about translation work here’s an alternate translation of an inspirational quote by Napoleon Hill that I found in the New Incomprehensible And Almost Inconceivable But Definitely Diabolical Version Of Tips And Tricks For Shysters And Cult Leaders (or NIAAIBDDVOTATFSACL for short):
Whatever minds you can deceive with something up your sleeve they’re the ones you can thieve
For those interested in the original exposé on shysters and cult leaders you can check out these:
Matthew 23
II Peter 2
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Bolshevik
Matthew calls them snakes and says they are dead inside.
Must be very old concepts.
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chockfull
It is eerie how completely different cults like Scientology and The Way having polar opposite views and products all become so similar in how they execute.
Isolate and control.
Consume all of the followers time and money with activity to mask that they truly have nothing to help.
Who knows whether Maggie will survive the Muggings.
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Bolshevik
China tears up your passport.
The state uses social media to influence behavior.
They also have these YouTube videos of people praising China and mocking very specific individuals in The West. It's hilarious watching how scripted the emotions are. They basically show up at your door one day with a camera and some threats and say "read this".
That's maybe 1.4 billion people, but it's now understood China has even been making those numbers up. It's probably overestimated by over 100 million people. Still bigger than all cults combined.
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Nathan_Jr
Right. The defining characteristics have little to do with dogmatic beliefs. In just the last few years, them have been some excellent threads here diving deep into cult structure and behavior. And though a search of Scientology will yield results, I'm not sure enough has been said about how VPW even plagiarized L. Ron Hubbard's tactics.
They were contemporaries. LRH had his Sea Org, VPW had his Corps. LRH was a brutal master of m&a. The classes and levels and always something new to purchase - required and mandated, but through cheerful free will choice. The lock box... on and on.
All cults operate the same. Dogmatic beliefs, whether spaceships or devil seed, are merely incidental The stupidity of belief does not a cult make; it's that the cult can convince people these beliefs are sound - through isolation and control.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves again
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