Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI.
So I take it you are generally unhappy and come here out of a sense of unhappiness except you still wanna elevate wierwille above Jesus Christ.
Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll?
8 minutes ago, Mike said:
Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. Then, if they speak up about the positives, they are shot down with barrages of bitterness. Either that, or they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
8 minutes ago, Mike said:
This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
So? Wasn't Saint Vic full of sin and treachery?
I thought you wanted a balanced view.
You think you're right. Soon enough, those grads will be in the same boat as we are. 18,000 people aren't wrong. The truth just hasn't caught up with your grads.
Mike, I believe you are on a lost island when it concerns Jesus Christ. You have NO idea what awesome things he is doing in the lives of Christians all around the world and you will probably never know until Christ returns (or you go for a walk on the road to Damascus.) Then the eyes of your understanding will be finally opened and you'll have to say .
Mike, I believe you are on a lost island when it concerns Jesus Christ. You have NO idea what awesome things he is doing in the lives of Christians all around the world and you will probably never know until Christ returns (or you go for a walk on the road to Damascus.) Then the eyes of your understanding will be finally opened and you'll have to say .
And before you ask Mike how I could possibly know what's going on in the lives of Christians all around the world, it's because what he's doing in my life now is a heck of a lot more than what Christ was able to do when I was in twi. Let the Word have the first and last word on this:
Ephesians 3:14-21
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Do you think the word "know" is a head or book knowledge only?
with all saints does not mean just the household of twi
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
I live by the golden rule – treat others as I would like to be treated – that’s my standard for helping others.
I don’t have a Twig or a ministry or belong to any church or ministry. On Grease Spot what I like to point out to “new” people is the necessity to develop their own cognitive skills – something that was and is grossly undervalued at The Way International.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike seems to be stuck in servitude to a dead idol – and apparently believes people cannot think for themselves. I think one of the issues that some former cult followers have to deal with is a bad habit of codependency …. Malignant narcissistslike wierwille exhibit antisocial behavior, aggression, and abuse.
A malignant narcissist is always ready to raise the hostility level – and I know from 12 years of TWI experience wierwille had a way of pitting the world against “The Word” – which would undermine relationships of families, friends, careers, and even subvert personal goals – basically anything that was not 100 percent on board with wierwille being the man of god for the world!
Malignant narcissistic cult-leaders like wierwille dehumanize the people who follow them. Followers wind up depending on the cult-leader for establishing a standard way to think and act...This is perceived by the followers as providing spiritual leadership.
One fascinating field to check out is the psychological study by those qualified to observe and prescribe therapies for the intellectual and emotional damage in a cult-follower or former cult-follower. I’ve been to professional mental health providers myself and can vouch for the world of good it did to help me unpack the intellectual and emotional baggage of being in a harmful and controlling cult for 12 years!
~ ~ ~ ~
In case anyone hasn’t noticed Mike is staging a false dilemma . A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.
Mike seems to assume everyone needs a plagiarizing, lying, thieving, abusive drunkard, megalomaniac, self-serving sexual predator like wierwille to provide definitive answers to their adoring fans. An if you don’t have someone like that then you’re $hit out of luck on finding a good substitute for the Almighty wierwille.
That may be the real dilemma Mike has to deal with. How to fill the void of the absent wierwille...why he goes on and on about this is indeed a mystery...maybe misery loves company.
Have you ever asked older grads, not connected with GreaseSpot, what they think of this place? I mean have you asked MANY grads, like an informal poll?
Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI. Then, if they speak up about the positives, they are shot down with barrages of bitterness. Either that, or they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
Are we to assume Mike has done a survey?
Mike’s version of a survey might be private messaging other wierwille fans on Grease Spot.
I have a hard time believing anything Mike says.
Mike has done such a ‘good job’ of shooting his own credibility in the foot, I find myself trying to decode the contradictions, exaggerations and lies wrapped up inside his frequent rants. I usually can’t get a straight answer out of him, so part of my deciphering process is trying out alternate translations of what he says. For example:
Mike:Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI.
One possible translation:Mike is relatively happy with what he got from PFAL and he doesn’t like coming here, because when he’s challenged on what he got out of PFAL he has to bail.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike:…they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
One possible translation:Mike reads threads where other big-wierwille fans go on and on promoting wierwille’s ideology and it worries him to see their nonsense posts shot down so easily.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike:This is not a happy place.Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
One possible translation:Mike is not happy here – because when he mindlessly promotes wierwille adoration, thoughtful Grease Spotters expose Mike’s subjection to the rule of wierwille’s sin and treachery. Mike may be angry over the unjust treatment of his idol wierwille.
There has got to be something that each and every one of us look up to with great respect, and hope to line our actions and thoughts up against.
Is that so? There has GOT to be? This is fundamental to man's suffering and confusion that has persisted for hundreds of thousands of years: that there is some authority, some guru, some system of thought put together by the mortal thoughts of another that will guide us.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
The question is WHAT?
No! Yikes! The question is WHY?
4 hours ago, Mike said:
What is your "rule for faith and practice" that guides your thoughts?
If my thoughts are guided by another, then I am not free, but a slave to the errors of another, a slave to the opinions of another, a slave to the conclusions of another. If there is a "rule for faith and practice," it can only be put together by the thoughts of man. Obviously.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Do you have one rule for faith and practice, or do you flit around from one set of rules to another, looking for what is a convenient rule for the present?
Again, no one seems to see this. This is the fundamental problem: we are always lazily, fearfully seeking the easy, comfortable answers from another. Is this not obvious?
4 hours ago, Mike said:
f you have settled onto just one rule to guide your thoughts, what is it? Is it in writing?
Is it in writing? Does that change anything? Who is writing? The guru? The minister? The priest? The self-anointed authority? Who made the authority? Mortal man. Obviously.
4 hours ago, Mike said:
Fools will settle only on their own light to guide them.
No! Fools beleeve another can light their path, and that fool follows that path into a perpetuity of confusion.
What was in the beginning? Light, the Word. What is the Word? Is it the Christ? Where is the Christ? Is it within? What does your scripture say? Even Paul, a Pharisee so full of conclusions and surety, got THAT right.
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
In TWI there never were any “new” people. The vast majority of those I encountered were already Christians being love bombed into sitting in an excruciatingly boring audio class that isolated them off into a shipwreck splinter of the family faith.
Your long rambling series of questions seems similar to justifying the golden calf to Israel.
A tent evangelist and a ticket to a local church would be infinitely better than Plaffy. It would illustrate correct doctrine as opposed to isolationist fundamentalist cult doctrine.
”trusted past teaching” if it is doctrinal error then of course it needs to be addressed.
It seems like the bitterness is coming from you with your desperate pleas to worship a man and his stolen work.
We offer no alternative to TWI 4 folks other than the truth. Christianity can be found anywhere yet missed everywhere. Only those under the bondage of TWI need hand held steps to find it.
Just like former TWI brethren you throw out a “bitterness” label and negate the truth of everything taught or challenged.
It would be less boring if the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons didn’t employ the exact same tactics. Oooh look the other way there is no $32b that is a spiritual $32b lol.
Not surprising that those local TWI leaders make fun of us. They retain their comfort and never stand up for what they know is right - like the “yes ma’am” guy exactly. To me that is the brain dead vapid behavior as opposed to challenging a hucksters work.
Christianity is totally sweet. And better not under the bondage of Pharisees and not burying your head in the sand like the troll.
Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to?
No. Obviously.
9 hours ago, Mike said:
Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
When one realizes that the past "teachings" should never have been trusted because those "teachings" are demonstrably false, then one may see that all the "teachings" of man are just that - of man.
Man's confusion is this beleeef in doctrine of another and in the clinging to the opinions and conclusions of another. The "ocean of speculation" is the very doctrine that one should doubt. Doubt all doctrine.
Can one empty himself of indoctrination, conditioning, accumulation of conclusions, accumulation of constructed thought? Find out if you can.
In this emptiness there is freedom. Only a mind free from all conditioning can see, can hear.
9 hours ago, Mike said:
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
No! Yikes! No knowledge swap!
When it comes to spiritual matters, that which is eternal, that which cannot be named, we are unsure, afraid, so we seek comfort in knowing, not in unknowing. But we cannot find out about that which is eternal by accumulating knowledge. Knowledge is both the disease and the attempted ineffective cure. Can no one see this?
When one observes a little child moving about the world, one sees there is immense unknowing in that child. If one is sensitive, one may see and be humbled by the child's capacity for awe and wonder and clarity of sight. If one is able to watch, without judgement or fear, one might see the tremendous power in that little child.
The little child is powerfully free. Free from conditioning. Free from conclusions. But children grow up and become conditioned. They are not the same. They are not as free as they once were. Those of us with children can surely see this.
Matthew 18:3
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Let's turn my challenge to you folks around a little bit.
What do you do for "new" people you minister to?
What standard do you conform to in ministering to them?
Do you point to your own accumulated wisdom for them to learn from? Or do you point to another living teacher (or authof) as having a much larger cargo for your "new" people than you can deliver?
If it's the Bible or Jesus you point them to, do you just send "new" people to a Gideon Motel? Or do you send them to some teacher or "window" to the Bible and Jesus that will assist them in getting started?
Now switch gears from new people to the refugees of TWI. Is there any one package of teaching you can send them to? Or do you merely help strip them of their trusted past teaching, and send them off into the Ocean of Speculation and Doubt to become as empty and confused as the rest of the world?
Do you really offer the "comfort of unknowing" to those who thought they "really knew" from VPW in years past? Or do you have a hard knowledge swap for them, saying "Here, that VPW stuff was bad, but this is good. Take this in place of VPW."
You all probably don't realize how vapid an alternative you offer to TWI-4 people. It is laughable.... until I remember you are my damaged family, too. I really don't think there is a large crop of culty victims there for you to minister to in the future. They really have cooled off the really dumb diabolical stuff, and are at least communicating about the remaining dumb (and less diabolical) stuff.
There may still be bitter confused old grads from early TWIs who can still hook up here and be bitter with you all, but here is the harsh truth about that: they are all dying off now. Plus, bad news travels fast, and everyone has heard of GreaseSpot by now.
I have challenged you all before as to who is going to take up the bitterness torch after you all die off yourselves... but heard only crickets.
See heres the thing. wierwille's deification doens't fly outside of the way international's controlled environments. Within the walls of the way international it is considered unloving, bitter, dwelling on sin, dwelling on the negatives, David sinned, and fake accusations and fake boundaries all around the image of wierwille to keep the dead false prophet propped up. Truth is what it is...truth. The truth about wierwille cant stand the light of day because once the secrets hit the open air then the putrid stench hits eveyone's nostrils. Its taken dang near 20+ years for the way international to fully whitewash wierwiile into the image presented today by the way international. They had to scrub classes, edit and re-edit their publications, pull - edit - and re-release other classes...but without the whitewash wierwille is exposed for what he was: a drunken, plagairaising, lying false prophet who lived lavishly on people's donations. The only way wierwille can remain deified is to have a controlled cult environment where conversation can be controlled and people can be controlled and shamed away from the truth.
Its a sad day when you have people who absolutely cannot see past a dead false prophet and cannot fathom life without his image as their blind guiding light.
And exactly how do you do that?
Does he come and instruct you?
Did he leave you with a book?
Or more likely, do you wing it and assume anything you like in your head is what Jesus likes too?
Mike, didn't vp say at some point that Jesus Christ is the red thread in the Bible? I know I heard it somewhere. In Swedish and other Nordic and European countries, the expression “red thread” refers to the core idea or theme of something. They talk about it as the “throughline” that makes it all make sense. (Tamsen Webster)
Would there have even been a need for scripture if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Everything after Genesis 3 is about God preparing for the first coming of the Messiah, the Gospels are awesome records of how God and Jesus were one in purpose to bring about our redemption, and the remainder of scripture is still all about God and Jesus being one in purpose working in us with God's plan being fully completed in the end times. It brings us full circle back to the Garden of Eden.
If you are reading the Bible, why would you have to ask those 3 questions? How did the red thread lose it's meaning and power for you?
I point to the collaterals, because they round off my argument.
I point to what I got from the collaterals in the 1970s, and how they served me a clear window into the Bible. I still use that window to see clearly.
I asked you and others what window you use to see clearly, and you dodged the challenge. You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
I think you point to the collaterals as another bluff.
They contain wierwille’s ‘original’ nonsense.
Collaterals in the 1970s– Wow ! you’re talking vintage Kool-Aid!
It’s odd that you - as a professional window cleaner – would liken the collaterals to providing a clear window into the Bible. I wonder what your standard is for a clear and clean window. Did you ever get around to cleaning the sin-stained glass windows on your church’s catechism – i.e., the collaterals? Just wondering.
Everyone has biases, mental filters, ‘windows’ for how to interpret and process perceptions of anything. You probably won’t understand this, but I’ll say it anyway – even though I’ve seen you poo-poo this concept on other threads – using critical thinking skills enables one to better identify and isolate their own biases, mental filters, viewpoints - to not only recognize dubious ideas but also separate the wheat from the chaff. Obviously, that is a process you still avoid like the plague.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said:You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
Once again you have big-a$$-assumptions. I spent 12 years thinking through the ‘positives’ in the collaterals – to no avail! Your bogus challenge sidesteps the real issue.
Since wierwille was a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian lying, cheating, thieving, plagiarizing, self-serving, narcissistic, abusive, manipulating, sexual predator WHY should I look for any positive stuff in all that he said and did?
Where in the Bible does it indicate I should do that?
On the contrary in Matthew 7 NIV Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets and ravenous wolves camouflaged like sheep and He also said we’re to recognize them by their bad fruit. He didn’t say sort through the fruit and keep the good stuff. Jesus also warned us of evildoers who claim Jesus is their lord but ignore doing the will of the Father – like wierwille’s convenient commandments-of-God-loophole “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please”. (btw I noticed you ignored my previous references to that and where it was in PFAL ). If you don’t like the gospels because it’s not your administration - try 2 Peter 2 NIV
it’s the same basic idea of false prophets and false teachers among you who introduce destructive doctrines, and manyfollow their depraved conduct:
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories.
~ ~ ~ ~
As much as some people stubbornly defend wierwille-doctrine and want to grant him a free pass for his depraved lifestyle, one has to wonder why. Maybe they find that “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please” a good fit for what they’ve been doing or plan to do. I know - it seems contradictory – some folks who claim they love the Word of God and yet also quickly come to the defense of a notorious liar, cheater, thief, plagiarist, self-serving, narcissistic,abusive, manipulating, sexual predator like wierwille. Maybe there’s something wrong with their scale of values.
Edited by T-Bone the impact of wierwille's erroneous doctrine = collateral damage
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
I'm thinking it was probably the old bait and switch trick especially with the young people from the Jesus movement coming to twi.
vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
There's a whole thread on the absent Christ. Not sure if your question is answered there. The thread like 792 pages, so good luck finding it. I'm sure someone here knows the answer, or at least can offer a reasonable guess.
The absent Christ is a sort of paradox, a conundrum, a wacky theological contrivance designed to control. (The written word is always whatever vic says it is.) It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified.
It's kinda like AOS -- you are to run the race, but above all, you are to stand. Well, which is it? You are either running or standing. Not both. So much silliness behind these pretentious claims.
49 minutes ago, Charity said:
vp decided
Wonderful absurdities and calamitous errors usually follow these two words.
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
2 hours ago, Charity said:
I'm thinking it was probably the old bait and switch trick especially with the young people from the Jesus movement coming to twi.
Just my opinion here:
I don’t think wierwille ever switched the “theme” of his ministry - which I believe was always about wierwille ! Make no mistake, wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist so all credit goes to him!
Considering the timeline of wierwille’s ministry - I took PFAL in ‘74 and if memory serves, wierwille’s SNT tape of the red thread came out sometime after my WOW year - so maybe between ‘77 and ‘79, I remember playing the tape for our Twig and some local leadership were trying to outdo each other on who could recite the red thread the smoothest and fastest with the same pizazz as wierwille…. I could go up in the attic and dig out the SNT tape and look at the date - but I’m a lazy butt … I know what you’re thinking “hey T-Bone the extreme variations in attic temperatures is murder on cassette tapes”. Yes - I know.
In retrospect I don’t think it suggests a transition of themes (from the Jesus movement to the written Word taking the place of Christ) not only it doesn’t fit in the wierwille timeline - but there really is NO transition of themes if you think about it - I can still hear wierwille’s passionate delivery and the point he drove home “who was that fourth man in the book of Daniel? In Genesis he’s the seed of the woman, in Exodus he’s the Passover lamb … …Jesus Christ - you find him everywhere IN THE WORD !” I’ll give him this - he sure put on a good show…if I didn’t know better - I’d say he sure looked and sounded like a genuine preacher of the gospel.!
You might say “well, after all Jesus Christ IS the great subject of the Bible , so what’s the problem with wierwille’s red thread teaching?”
Maybe it’s just me but reflecting on the main theme of wierwille’s ministry - which was that wierwille would teach us “the Word” like it hadn’t been known since the 1st century - his plagiarized red thread teaching was just a variation on a theme. Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.”
This is the type of thing that can be appreciated on different levels depending on one’s viewpoint. And actually there are other LEGITIMATE sources on what the Bible is all about anyway . Take for instance
What the Bible is All About by Henrietta C. Mears and check out what Wikipedia says on Mears or read the book jackets on how many noteworthy people she trained and influenced. She passed away in 1963 - I bought her book in 1999 and have shared it with our kids because it’s biblically focused on Jesus Christ - and fwiw some of how Jesus Christ is portrayed in each book of the Bible from what Mears says differs from wierwille / Oral R. - but no big whoop - “I didn’t write the book”.
There's a whole thread on the absent Christ. Not sure if your question is answered there. The thread like 792 pages, so good luck finding it. I'm sure someone here knows the answer, or at least can offer a reasonable guess.
The absent Christ is a sort of paradox, a conundrum, a wacky theological contrivance designed to control. (The written word is always whatever vic says it is.) It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified.
It's kinda like AOS -- you are to run the race, but above all, you are to stand. Well, which is it? You are either running or standing. Not both. So much silliness behind these pretentious claims.
Wonderful absurdities and calamitous errors usually follow these two words.
Thanks for your post! You're right - the term "the absent Christ" is another one (among many) totally made up by vp and was used to place himself and twi as the head of the body. A couple of things came to mind after reading what you wrote which I'll share on the AOS thread and a new one.
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So I take it you are generally unhappy and come here out of a sense of unhappiness except you still wanna elevate wierwille above Jesus Christ.
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So_crates
So? Wasn't Saint Vic full of sin and treachery?
I thought you wanted a balanced view.
You think you're right. Soon enough, those grads will be in the same boat as we are. 18,000 people aren't wrong. The truth just hasn't caught up with your grads.
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Charity
Mike, I believe you are on a lost island when it concerns Jesus Christ. You have NO idea what awesome things he is doing in the lives of Christians all around the world and you will probably never know until Christ returns (or you go for a walk on the road to Damascus.) Then the eyes of your understanding will be finally opened and you'll have to say
.
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Charity
And before you ask Mike how I could possibly know what's going on in the lives of Christians all around the world, it's because what he's doing in my life now is a heck of a lot more than what Christ was able to do when I was in twi. Let the Word have the first and last word on this:
Ephesians 3:14-21
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Do you think the word "know" is a head or book knowledge only?
with all saints does not mean just the household of twi
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T-Bone
I live by the golden rule – treat others as I would like to be treated – that’s my standard for helping others.
I don’t have a Twig or a ministry or belong to any church or ministry. On Grease Spot what I like to point out to “new” people is the necessity to develop their own cognitive skills – something that was and is grossly undervalued at The Way International.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike seems to be stuck in servitude to a dead idol – and apparently believes people cannot think for themselves. I think one of the issues that some former cult followers have to deal with is a bad habit of codependency …. Malignant narcissists like wierwille exhibit antisocial behavior, aggression, and abuse.
A malignant narcissist is always ready to raise the hostility level – and I know from 12 years of TWI experience wierwille had a way of pitting the world against “The Word” – which would undermine relationships of families, friends, careers, and even subvert personal goals – basically anything that was not 100 percent on board with wierwille being the man of god for the world!
Malignant narcissistic cult-leaders like wierwille dehumanize the people who follow them. Followers wind up depending on the cult-leader for establishing a standard way to think and act...This is perceived by the followers as providing spiritual leadership.
One fascinating field to check out is the psychological study by those qualified to observe and prescribe therapies for the intellectual and emotional damage in a cult-follower or former cult-follower. I’ve been to professional mental health providers myself and can vouch for the world of good it did to help me unpack the intellectual and emotional baggage of being in a harmful and controlling cult for 12 years!
~ ~ ~ ~
In case anyone hasn’t noticed Mike is staging a false dilemma . A false dilemma, also referred to as false dichotomy or false binary, is an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available.
Mike seems to assume everyone needs a plagiarizing, lying, thieving, abusive drunkard, megalomaniac, self-serving sexual predator like wierwille to provide definitive answers to their adoring fans. An if you don’t have someone like that then you’re $hit out of luck on finding a good substitute for the Almighty wierwille.
That may be the real dilemma Mike has to deal with. How to fill the void of the absent wierwille...why he goes on and on about this is indeed a mystery...maybe misery loves company.
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T-Bone
Are we to assume Mike has done a survey?
Mike’s version of a survey might be private messaging other wierwille fans on Grease Spot.
I have a hard time believing anything Mike says.
Mike has done such a ‘good job’ of shooting his own credibility in the foot, I find myself trying to decode the contradictions, exaggerations and lies wrapped up inside his frequent rants. I usually can’t get a straight answer out of him, so part of my deciphering process is trying out alternate translations of what he says. For example:
Mike: Grads that are relatively happy with what they got from PFAL don't like coming here, because of all the bitterness they encounter here against what went wrong at TWI.
One possible translation: Mike is relatively happy with what he got from PFAL and he doesn’t like coming here, because when he’s challenged on what he got out of PFAL he has to bail.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: …they read threads and see others shot down with barrages of bitterness.
One possible translation: Mike reads threads where other big-wierwille fans go on and on promoting wierwille’s ideology and it worries him to see their nonsense posts shot down so easily.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike: This is not a happy place. Constant focus on sin and treachery is the rule. It is a bitter place to most grads, and if you ask them you will find out I am right.
One possible translation: Mike is not happy here – because when he mindlessly promotes wierwille adoration, thoughtful Grease Spotters expose Mike’s subjection to the rule of wierwille’s sin and treachery. Mike may be angry over the unjust treatment of his idol wierwille.
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Nathan_Jr
We do? Is that so?
Is that so? There has GOT to be? This is fundamental to man's suffering and confusion that has persisted for hundreds of thousands of years: that there is some authority, some guru, some system of thought put together by the mortal thoughts of another that will guide us.
No! Yikes! The question is WHY?
If my thoughts are guided by another, then I am not free, but a slave to the errors of another, a slave to the opinions of another, a slave to the conclusions of another. If there is a "rule for faith and practice," it can only be put together by the thoughts of man. Obviously.
Again, no one seems to see this. This is the fundamental problem: we are always lazily, fearfully seeking the easy, comfortable answers from another. Is this not obvious?
Is it in writing? Does that change anything? Who is writing? The guru? The minister? The priest? The self-anointed authority? Who made the authority? Mortal man. Obviously.
No! Fools beleeve another can light their path, and that fool follows that path into a perpetuity of confusion.
What was in the beginning? Light, the Word. What is the Word? Is it the Christ? Where is the Christ? Is it within? What does your scripture say? Even Paul, a Pharisee so full of conclusions and surety, got THAT right.
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chockfull
In TWI there never were any “new” people. The vast majority of those I encountered were already Christians being love bombed into sitting in an excruciatingly boring audio class that isolated them off into a shipwreck splinter of the family faith.
Your long rambling series of questions seems similar to justifying the golden calf to Israel.
A tent evangelist and a ticket to a local church would be infinitely better than Plaffy. It would illustrate correct doctrine as opposed to isolationist fundamentalist cult doctrine.
”trusted past teaching” if it is doctrinal error then of course it needs to be addressed.
It seems like the bitterness is coming from you with your desperate pleas to worship a man and his stolen work.
We offer no alternative to TWI 4 folks other than the truth. Christianity can be found anywhere yet missed everywhere. Only those under the bondage of TWI need hand held steps to find it.
Just like former TWI brethren you throw out a “bitterness” label and negate the truth of everything taught or challenged.
It would be less boring if the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormons didn’t employ the exact same tactics. Oooh look the other way there is no $32b that is a spiritual $32b lol.
Not surprising that those local TWI leaders make fun of us. They retain their comfort and never stand up for what they know is right - like the “yes ma’am” guy exactly. To me that is the brain dead vapid behavior as opposed to challenging a hucksters work.
Christianity is totally sweet. And better not under the bondage of Pharisees and not burying your head in the sand like the troll.
Bondage + censorship = bitterness
Freedom + truth = sweetness
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OldSkool
I mean, the way international says wierwille figured it out so we don't have to.
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chockfull
I mean how culty is your thinking if you describe all the world as empty and confused?
Do you just walk down the street with your nose in the air viewing people walking by as “empties”?
No wonder they live isolated. And build bunkers and have C rations.
I on the other hand enjoy a rich interaction with many varied people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds and beliefs.
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Nathan_Jr
No. Obviously.
When one realizes that the past "teachings" should never have been trusted because those "teachings" are demonstrably false, then one may see that all the "teachings" of man are just that - of man.
Man's confusion is this beleeef in doctrine of another and in the clinging to the opinions and conclusions of another. The "ocean of speculation" is the very doctrine that one should doubt. Doubt all doctrine.
Can one empty himself of indoctrination, conditioning, accumulation of conclusions, accumulation of constructed thought? Find out if you can.
In this emptiness there is freedom. Only a mind free from all conditioning can see, can hear.
No! Yikes! No knowledge swap!
When it comes to spiritual matters, that which is eternal, that which cannot be named, we are unsure, afraid, so we seek comfort in knowing, not in unknowing. But we cannot find out about that which is eternal by accumulating knowledge. Knowledge is both the disease and the attempted ineffective cure. Can no one see this?
When one observes a little child moving about the world, one sees there is immense unknowing in that child. If one is sensitive, one may see and be humbled by the child's capacity for awe and wonder and clarity of sight. If one is able to watch, without judgement or fear, one might see the tremendous power in that little child.
The little child is powerfully free. Free from conditioning. Free from conclusions. But children grow up and become conditioned. They are not the same. They are not as free as they once were. Those of us with children can surely see this.
Matthew 18:3
And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves, as usual.
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Nathan_Jr
Obviously, they are wrong. There is nothing to figure out.
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OldSkool
See heres the thing. wierwille's deification doens't fly outside of the way international's controlled environments. Within the walls of the way international it is considered unloving, bitter, dwelling on sin, dwelling on the negatives, David sinned, and fake accusations and fake boundaries all around the image of wierwille to keep the dead false prophet propped up. Truth is what it is...truth. The truth about wierwille cant stand the light of day because once the secrets hit the open air then the putrid stench hits eveyone's nostrils. Its taken dang near 20+ years for the way international to fully whitewash wierwiile into the image presented today by the way international. They had to scrub classes, edit and re-edit their publications, pull - edit - and re-release other classes...but without the whitewash wierwille is exposed for what he was: a drunken, plagairaising, lying false prophet who lived lavishly on people's donations. The only way wierwille can remain deified is to have a controlled cult environment where conversation can be controlled and people can be controlled and shamed away from the truth.
Its a sad day when you have people who absolutely cannot see past a dead false prophet and cannot fathom life without his image as their blind guiding light.
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Charity
Mike, didn't vp say at some point that Jesus Christ is the red thread in the Bible? I know I heard it somewhere. In Swedish and other Nordic and European countries, the expression “red thread” refers to the core idea or theme of something. They talk about it as the “throughline” that makes it all make sense. (Tamsen Webster)
Would there have even been a need for scripture if Adam and Eve had not sinned? Everything after Genesis 3 is about God preparing for the first coming of the Messiah, the Gospels are awesome records of how God and Jesus were one in purpose to bring about our redemption, and the remainder of scripture is still all about God and Jesus being one in purpose working in us with God's plan being fully completed in the end times. It brings us full circle back to the Garden of Eden.
If you are reading the Bible, why would you have to ask those 3 questions? How did the red thread lose it's meaning and power for you?
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waysider
It was part of Oral Roberts' "Fourth Man" sermon.
If you want to skip to it, it's found at 37:36
Edited by waysiderspelling
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Rocky
Yes, he said it. But he got it from Oral Roberts. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/24477-red-thread/
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T-Bone
I think you point to the collaterals as another bluff.
They contain wierwille’s ‘original’ nonsense.
Collaterals in the 1970s – Wow ! you’re talking vintage Kool-Aid!
It’s odd that you - as a professional window cleaner – would liken the collaterals to providing a clear window into the Bible. I wonder what your standard is for a clear and clean window. Did you ever get around to cleaning the sin-stained glass windows on your church’s catechism – i.e., the collaterals? Just wondering.
Everyone has biases, mental filters, ‘windows’ for how to interpret and process perceptions of anything. You probably won’t understand this, but I’ll say it anyway – even though I’ve seen you poo-poo this concept on other threads – using critical thinking skills enables one to better identify and isolate their own biases, mental filters, viewpoints - to not only recognize dubious ideas but also separate the wheat from the chaff. Obviously, that is a process you still avoid like the plague.
~ ~ ~ ~
Mike said: You probably don't think through the positive stuff NEARLY as much as you think through the negative stuff.
Once again you have big-a$$-assumptions. I spent 12 years thinking through the ‘positives’ in the collaterals – to no avail! Your bogus challenge sidesteps the real issue.
Since wierwille was a harmful and controlling pseudo-Christian lying, cheating, thieving, plagiarizing, self-serving, narcissistic, abusive, manipulating, sexual predator WHY should I look for any positive stuff in all that he said and did?
Where in the Bible does it indicate I should do that?
On the contrary in Matthew 7 NIV Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets and ravenous wolves camouflaged like sheep and He also said we’re to recognize them by their bad fruit. He didn’t say sort through the fruit and keep the good stuff. Jesus also warned us of evildoers who claim Jesus is their lord but ignore doing the will of the Father – like wierwille’s convenient commandments-of-God-loophole “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please”. (btw I noticed you ignored my previous references to that and where it was in PFAL
). If you don’t like the gospels because it’s not your administration 
- try 2 Peter 2 NIV
it’s the same basic idea of false prophets and false teachers among you who introduce destructive doctrines, and many follow their depraved conduct:
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories.
~ ~ ~ ~
As much as some people stubbornly defend wierwille-doctrine and want to grant him a free pass for his depraved lifestyle, one has to wonder why. Maybe they find that “as long as you love God and neighbor you can do as you full well please” a good fit for what they’ve been doing or plan to do. I know - it seems contradictory – some folks who claim they love the Word of God and yet also quickly come to the defense of a notorious liar, cheater, thief, plagiarist, self-serving, narcissistic, abusive, manipulating, sexual predator like wierwille. Maybe there’s something wrong with their scale of values.
Edited by T-Bonethe impact of wierwille's erroneous doctrine = collateral damage
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Charity
Thanks Waysider and Rocky. I read the posts on the Red Thread. So it would seem that this teaching by vp which focused on Jesus was well received in the early 70's but then somewhere along the line, vp decided the Written Word would take the place of Christ since he was "absent." Does anyone remember how this transition took place?
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Charity
I'm thinking it was probably the old bait and switch trick especially with the young people from the Jesus movement coming to twi.
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Rocky
He didn't explicitly indicate, anytime or place I am aware of, how the two concepts contradicted (or may have) each other.
I see this as just another notion Victor "borrowed" from someone else.
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Nathan_Jr
There's a whole thread on the absent Christ. Not sure if your question is answered there. The thread like 792 pages, so good luck finding it. I'm sure someone here knows the answer, or at least can offer a reasonable guess.
The absent Christ is a sort of paradox, a conundrum, a wacky theological contrivance designed to control. (The written word is always whatever vic says it is.) It's merely a seductive, novel, private interpretation, a pretension, designed to impress the dull mind. Like four crucified.
It's kinda like AOS -- you are to run the race, but above all, you are to stand. Well, which is it? You are either running or standing. Not both. So much silliness behind these pretentious claims.
Wonderful absurdities and calamitous errors usually follow these two words.
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T-Bone
Just my opinion here:
I don’t think wierwille ever switched the “theme” of his ministry - which I believe was always about wierwille ! Make no mistake, wierwille was an unabashed plagiarist so all credit goes to him!
Considering the timeline of wierwille’s ministry - I took PFAL in ‘74 and if memory serves, wierwille’s SNT tape of the red thread came out sometime after my WOW year - so maybe between ‘77 and ‘79, I remember playing the tape for our Twig and some local leadership were trying to outdo each other on who could recite the red thread the smoothest and fastest with the same pizazz as wierwille…. I could go up in the attic and dig out the SNT tape and look at the date - but I’m a lazy butt
… I know what you’re thinking “hey T-Bone the extreme variations in attic temperatures is murder on cassette tapes”. Yes - I know. 
In retrospect I don’t think it suggests a transition of themes (from the Jesus movement to the written Word taking the place of Christ) not only it doesn’t fit in the wierwille timeline - but there really is NO transition of themes if you think about it - I can still hear wierwille’s passionate delivery and the point he drove home “who was that fourth man in the book of Daniel? In Genesis he’s the seed of the woman, in Exodus he’s the Passover lamb … …Jesus Christ - you find him everywhere IN THE WORD !” I’ll give him this - he sure put on a good show…if I didn’t know better - I’d say he sure looked and sounded like a genuine preacher of the gospel.!
You might say “well, after all Jesus Christ IS the great subject of the Bible , so what’s the problem with wierwille’s red thread teaching?”
Maybe it’s just me but reflecting on the main theme of wierwille’s ministry - which was that wierwille would teach us “the Word” like it hadn’t been known since the 1st century - his plagiarized red thread teaching was just a variation on a theme. Jesus Christ is found everywhere in “the Word”. Who is teaching us “the Word”? Why wierwille , of course. It’s just another way to keep fans interested. wierwille used the topic of Jesus Christ like window dressing. It’s the bait of bait-and-switch. “Want to know more about Jesus Christ? Just come into my store - we have whatever you could want or need.”
This is the type of thing that can be appreciated on different levels depending on one’s viewpoint. And actually there are other LEGITIMATE sources on what the Bible is all about anyway . Take for instance
What the Bible is All About by Henrietta C. Mears and check out what Wikipedia says on Mears or read the book jackets on how many noteworthy people she trained and influenced. She passed away in 1963 - I bought her book in 1999 and have shared it with our kids because it’s biblically focused on Jesus Christ - and fwiw some of how Jesus Christ is portrayed in each book of the Bible from what Mears says differs from wierwille / Oral R. - but no big whoop - “I didn’t write the book”.
Edited by T-BoneThe clarity of hilarity
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Charity
Thanks for your post! You're right - the term "the absent Christ" is another one (among many) totally made up by vp and was used to place himself and twi as the head of the body. A couple of things came to mind after reading what you wrote which I'll share on the AOS thread and a new one.
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T-Bone
Hey all Grease Spotters,
Considering the topics this thread has touched upon, some of you might enjoy listening to these You Tubes by Michael S. Heiser and here is his website > Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert (drmsh.com) .
The Unseen Realm - documentary film with Dr. Michael S. Heiser
The Unseen Realm Q&A with Dr. Michael S. Heiser and Dr. Ben Witherington III
Demons and evil spirits in scripture: Dr. Michael Heiser 2019
What the Bible ACTUALLY Teaches about Demons (w/ Dr. Michael Heiser)
Who was Satan in the Book of Job? With Dr. Michael Heiser
Satan and Eden: with Dr. Michael Heiser
That’s all for now
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