I know there's a guy in the Way Chorus called "Ad@m Barlow".... is he related to William? Interesting Podcast, but.... Sean Finnegan is part of VF's ministry, A ministry that has many similar beliefs and principles to TWI.
I know there's a guy in the Way Chorus called "Ad@m Barlow".... is he related to William? Interesting Podcast, but.... Sean Finnegan is part of VF's ministry, A ministry that has many similar beliefs and principles to TWI.
William talks about his parents and other members of his family being in twi for years. However, I don't think he mentioned anyone else being in the corps program.
Vince and Sean Finnegan began teaching against once saved/always saved which is a big departure from twi.
William talks about his parents and other members of his family being in twi for years. However, I don't think he mentioned anyone else being in the corps program.
Vince and Sean Finnegan began teaching against once saved/always saved which is a big departure from twi.
Charity many thanks for posting Vince teaching... good to see him again. I believe he correctly offers the distinction between the old covenant vs. the new and some of the necessary actions of the new. I think he missed and could have offered insight on the sacrament of confession, without which one may not receive forgiveness, and without which one may lose salvation. Although I am very glad he threw away the TWI belief of eternal security: perhaps one of the most dangerous views we were exposed to in TWI. To presume God's promise of eternal life is guaranteed no matter whether we do the corresponding works or not, was perhaps the most deadly of TWI doctrines. Thanks again.
I stumbled across this man, Rev Joseph Yoo, who speaks so much sense about the gospel. He did a four part series recently on Salvation. Here is part 4 of 4. Find the rest by googling his name.
I stumbled across this man, Rev Joseph Yoo, who speaks so much sense about the gospel. He did a four part series recently on Salvation. Here is part 4 of 4. Find the rest by googling his name.
Yes... important to do the works of faith in the household... Galatians 6:10 style... thank you.
I'm so glad/ that I'm part of/ the-fam-ily-of-God-
Not so fast, my friend. What a gut punch. Thrown away so easily.
And, the father, 5 kids, no possessions of his own! Wow!
Obviously, some had more skin in the game than others of us.
The gospel is like that. It spreads amidst guerilla warfare.
Better not bitter. How glorious these survived with faith intact. Not VP's faith; not LCM's faith; not RR's; These with a faith of their own and flourishing.
I think it's interesting to take note of the time of each person's story. It sounds like the current leadership renounces some of the practices coming from that era of leadership.
I'm not saying it's clear skies, there still seems to be cultish denominationalism or sectarianism, if there is some difference between those two words. I just want to acknowledge whatever progress has been made and be open to fellowship and brotherhood to the degree that is possible.
People act is if TWI is the only organization that will not change their doctrine when confronted with scripture indicating possible error.
Ask the new U.S. Pope Leo XIV to justify purgatory from the bible or praying to dead people to help their loved ones on earth? Or declaring using birth control is a sin?
There are over 2,000 Christian religions today and ask anyone of them to show why your religious beliefs are wrong. They will come up some scripture that indicates their religion is right.
About any belief in the world today can be justified using the bible.
Can you name a religion that will allow any questioning of their dogmas?
I can't even name a single GROUP which will allow any questioning of their dogmas. I have met Christians willing to agree to disagree, and to interact despite differences. They've been from different denominations, for that matter. (Not twi, mind you...)
People act is if TWI is the only organization that will not change their doctrine when confronted with scripture indicating possible error.
Ask the new U.S. Pope Leo XIV to justify purgatory from the bible or praying to dead people to help their loved ones on earth? Or declaring using birth control is a sin?
There are over 2,000 Christian religions today and ask anyone of them to show why your religious beliefs are wrong. They will come up some scripture that indicates their religion is right.
About any belief in the world today can be justified using the bible.
Can you name a religion that will allow any questioning of their dogmas?
Interesting question. My first reaction was 'no' - but then I thought about how the Roman Catholic Church allowed the mass to be watered down around 1958 with Vatican 2. IMO the only real way to see this is to attend a traditional latin mass, then go to the new Novus Ordo mass... you will see what I mean. Imagine having a concept for hundreds of years then change it.. it's a topic that's quite debated in RC circles...
Can you name a religion that will allow any questioning of their dogmas?
For the purpose of a serious conversation:
"In Essentials Unity, In Nonessentials Liberty, and In All Things Love."
This is a widely referenced maxim. Christians have plenty of doctrinal conversations. When it reaches a limit, Christians just split and have two separate groups with the same essential message of Jesus the Christ. Some groups are better than others with regard to liberty.
To refer to various sects as separate religions is intellectually dishonest, whatever passion you may feel.
I can't even name a single GROUP which will allow any questioning of their dogmas. I have met Christians willing to agree to disagree, and to interact despite differences. They've been from different denominations, for that matter. (Not twi, mind you...)
7 hours ago, WordWolf said:
The meaning of "household" was never exactly defined, but in practice, seemed to equate with being a Christian at all- because any act of disobedience to twi would threaten to put you out of "the household". Further, people like lcm were openly distainful of people leaving twi, and said they put themselves outside of God's protection and so on. Any time something bad happened to someone who left twi, it was ALWAYS "because they left the household." (Any time something bad happened to someone in twi, either they were blamed for not being faithful ENOUGH to twi, or the devil was going after them BECAUSE they were in twi.) And lcm was quite vocal about how God's blessings won't reach someone who isn't in lockstep with twi. There was a lengthy list of things which would result in a situation where "God won't even SPIT in your direction", most notably, tithing. lcm talked about God spitting in our direction a lot.
Within twi, there was very little, if any, "willingness to agree to disagree." With William Barlow, he shared that it was some fellow believers who complained about him (i.e., ratted him out) to leadership because they determined he was criticizing and mocking vpw (which he later explained to the leader how that was not what was actually happening).
With the second quote of WordWolf (highlighting is mine), he laid out how fear based the control in twi was. Questioning twi doctrine was obviously included in these acts of disobedience and qualified you as not being faithful enough. So beware anyone reading this thread who is currently in twi or is considering becoming involved - listen to the tape.
On the tape, one leader "seemed willing" to go through William's questions with him but before that could even begin to happen, Rivenbark was told about it, shut it down and kicked William out of the corps solely for this one reason. It seems most likely that twi knows they are not able todefend vpw's teachings when provided with scriptures. They nip it in the bud, accuse you of thinking you know more than weirwille (which happened to me as well and is considered blasphemy in their eyes), and remain faithful to the man who founded the ministry which now belongs to them.
Do you think this applies to the Way International?
I think that would be a GREAT question to put to anyone in leadership, there. If they don't subscribe to this maxim, I would want to know why. I'm not going to stick around anyplace a long time judging them, if I don't like it I'll just keep moving.
Was listening to Morningstar Fellowship this morning. The speaker made reference to Rick Joyner's claim that those who stay behind in support receive the same reward as those who are sent out.
Now, why would he do that!? That's just lazy. Why reference the founder of the ministry instead of the Bible itself!? It's 1 Sam 30:24
It seems the Way still has this problem. They want to play Weekend at Bernie's with Dr Wierwille. I'm pretty sure in his best days Dr Wierwille would not have wanted that. The Word, The Word, The Word! He didn't teach VPW, VPW, VPW!
The Word, The Word, The Word! He didn't teach VPW, VPW, VPW!
How sure are you that he did NOT teach that HIS teachings were the Word of God?
Whether he ever used those words or not is irrelevant. His actions, his exercise of excommunication ALL consistently DID mean that Victor's words were the Word of God.
How sure are you that he did NOT teach that HIS teachings were the Word of God?
Whether he ever used those words or not is irrelevant. His actions, his exercise of excommunication ALL consistently DID mean that Victor's words were the Word of God.
Well, I did reference his best days and in PFAL, he couldn't do enough to emphasize the Word and not Time, Look or Life.
This would be a great topic to explore. If he got off the Word and made it exclusively about his teaching of the Word, when did that turn take place?
As I mentioned, another church doing the same thing this morning. Probably a pattern problem
In the first paragraph, they fail to mention the two names he plagiarized the most - J.E. Stiles and Bullinger. I don't recognize most of the other men they do list. Did he publicly credit all of these men in his work?
Third paragraph lists the colleges in Emporia and in Indiana - neither of which were ever accredited and are both now closed. Does anyone know if the corps program is still run out of Camp Gunnison as well as the headquarters in Ohio? This link talks about the accreditation issues around these two places. Camp Gunnison's Accreditation
The University of Life outreach courses, an international Biblical studies correspondence school, is mentioned in the final paragraph but I can't see where that is still available.
The article closes with the claim that vp held forth the greatness and the accuracy of God’s Word.
So the quote "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" also meant the Word of God according to vpw. Yet, how many of the classes offered by twi today are the original ones taught by him?
In the first paragraph, they fail to mention the two names he plagiarized the most - J.E. Stiles and Bullinger. I don't recognize most of the other men they do list. Did he publicly credit all of these men in his work?
Third paragraph lists the colleges in Emporia and in Indiana - neither of which were ever accredited and are both now closed. Does anyone know if the corps program is still run out of Camp Gunnison as well as the headquarters in Ohio? This link talks about the accreditation issues around these two places. Camp Gunnison's Accreditation
The University of Life outreach courses, an international Biblical studies correspondence school, is mentioned in the final paragraph but I can't see where that is still available.
The article closes with the claim that vp held forth the greatness and the accuracy of God’s Word.
So the quote "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" also meant the Word of God according to vpw. Yet, how many of the classes offered by twi today are the original ones taught by him?
Yes, Way Corps is still run out of Camp Gunnison and HQ. (WC 55 as far as I know).
They do not mention Stiles, Bullinger or Leonard cause it is so freakin' easy to prove he plagiarized them, if someone just goes to google and writes down "Stiles, Wierwille".
I'm pretty sure in his best days Dr Wierwille would not have wanted that.
Btw, I don't project anything on to him. I was in the corps(e) 40 some years ago. I'm not interested in what he would or would not have wanted. I'm interested in what he said and did. From a strictly critical analysis perspective, it was his ministry. His organization. He wasn't about to let anyone disagree with him and get away with it.
Btw, I don't project anything on to him. I was in the corps(e) 40 some years ago. I'm not interested in what he would or would not have wanted. I'm interested in what he said and did. From a strictly critical analysis perspective, it was his ministry. His organization. He wasn't about to let anyone disagree with him and get away with it.
God's wonderful, matchless word. The word! The word! The word!
I wasn't in too deep. I never got to see anyone challenge his understanding of the word.
If they don't follow a unity, liberty, charity model like the one I mentioned then it isn't a place for me regardless of what anyone said or did when they were alive 40 years ago.
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Joe Maslow
I know there's a guy in the Way Chorus called "Ad@m Barlow".... is he related to William? Interesting Podcast, but.... Sean Finnegan is part of VF's ministry, A ministry that has many similar beliefs and principles to TWI.
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Charity
William talks about his parents and other members of his family being in twi for years. However, I don't think he mentioned anyone else being in the corps program.
Vince and Sean Finnegan began teaching against once saved/always saved which is a big departure from twi.
Myth: Salvation Cannot Be Lost
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oldiesman
Charity many thanks for posting Vince teaching... good to see him again. I believe he correctly offers the distinction between the old covenant vs. the new and some of the necessary actions of the new. I think he missed and could have offered insight on the sacrament of confession, without which one may not receive forgiveness, and without which one may lose salvation. Although I am very glad he threw away the TWI belief of eternal security: perhaps one of the most dangerous views we were exposed to in TWI. To presume God's promise of eternal life is guaranteed no matter whether we do the corresponding works or not, was perhaps the most deadly of TWI doctrines. Thanks again.
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Twinky
I stumbled across this man, Rev Joseph Yoo, who speaks so much sense about the gospel. He did a four part series recently on Salvation. Here is part 4 of 4. Find the rest by googling his name.
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oldiesman
Yes... important to do the works of faith in the household... Galatians 6:10 style... thank you.
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JoyfulSoul
I'm so glad/ that I'm part of/ the-fam-ily-of-God-
Not so fast, my friend. What a gut punch. Thrown away so easily.
And, the father, 5 kids, no possessions of his own! Wow!
Obviously, some had more skin in the game than others of us.
The gospel is like that. It spreads amidst guerilla warfare.
Better not bitter. How glorious these survived with faith intact. Not VP's faith; not LCM's faith; not RR's; These with a faith of their own and flourishing.
I think it's interesting to take note of the time of each person's story. It sounds like the current leadership renounces some of the practices coming from that era of leadership.
I'm not saying it's clear skies, there still seems to be cultish denominationalism or sectarianism, if there is some difference between those two words. I just want to acknowledge whatever progress has been made and be open to fellowship and brotherhood to the degree that is possible.
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Stayed Too Long
People act is if TWI is the only organization that will not change their doctrine when confronted with scripture indicating possible error.
Ask the new U.S. Pope Leo XIV to justify purgatory from the bible or praying to dead people to help their loved ones on earth? Or declaring using birth control is a sin?
There are over 2,000 Christian religions today and ask anyone of them to show why your religious beliefs are wrong. They will come up some scripture that indicates their religion is right.
About any belief in the world today can be justified using the bible.
Can you name a religion that will allow any questioning of their dogmas?
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WordWolf
I can't even name a single GROUP which will allow any questioning of their dogmas. I have met Christians willing to agree to disagree, and to interact despite differences. They've been from different denominations, for that matter. (Not twi, mind you...)
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oldiesman
Interesting question. My first reaction was 'no' - but then I thought about how the Roman Catholic Church allowed the mass to be watered down around 1958 with Vatican 2. IMO the only real way to see this is to attend a traditional latin mass, then go to the new Novus Ordo mass... you will see what I mean. Imagine having a concept for hundreds of years then change it.. it's a topic that's quite debated in RC circles...
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Twinky
Rev Joseph Yoo's take on unity, uniformity, and the glory of God. Facebook
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JoyfulSoul
For the purpose of a serious conversation:
"In Essentials Unity, In Nonessentials Liberty, and In All Things Love."
This is a widely referenced maxim. Christians have plenty of doctrinal conversations. When it reaches a limit, Christians just split and have two separate groups with the same essential message of Jesus the Christ. Some groups are better than others with regard to liberty.
To refer to various sects as separate religions is intellectually dishonest, whatever passion you may feel.
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Charity
Within twi, there was very little, if any, "willingness to agree to disagree." With William Barlow, he shared that it was some fellow believers who complained about him (i.e., ratted him out) to leadership because they determined he was criticizing and mocking vpw (which he later explained to the leader how that was not what was actually happening).
With the second quote of WordWolf (highlighting is mine), he laid out how fear based the control in twi was. Questioning twi doctrine was obviously included in these acts of disobedience and qualified you as not being faithful enough. So beware anyone reading this thread who is currently in twi or is considering becoming involved - listen to the tape.
On the tape, one leader "seemed willing" to go through William's questions with him but before that could even begin to happen, Rivenbark was told about it, shut it down and kicked William out of the corps solely for this one reason. It seems most likely that twi knows they are not able to defend vpw's teachings when provided with scriptures. They nip it in the bud, accuse you of thinking you know more than weirwille (which happened to me as well and is considered blasphemy in their eyes), and remain faithful to the man who founded the ministry which now belongs to them.
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Charity
Do you think this applies to the Way International?
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JoyfulSoul
I think that would be a GREAT question to put to anyone in leadership, there. If they don't subscribe to this maxim, I would want to know why. I'm not going to stick around anyplace a long time judging them, if I don't like it I'll just keep moving.
Was listening to Morningstar Fellowship this morning. The speaker made reference to Rick Joyner's claim that those who stay behind in support receive the same reward as those who are sent out.
Now, why would he do that!? That's just lazy. Why reference the founder of the ministry instead of the Bible itself!? It's 1 Sam 30:24
It seems the Way still has this problem. They want to play Weekend at Bernie's with Dr Wierwille. I'm pretty sure in his best days Dr Wierwille would not have wanted that. The Word, The Word, The Word! He didn't teach VPW, VPW, VPW!
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Rocky
How sure are you that he did NOT teach that HIS teachings were the Word of God?
Whether he ever used those words or not is irrelevant. His actions, his exercise of excommunication ALL consistently DID mean that Victor's words were the Word of God.
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JoyfulSoul
Well, I did reference his best days and in PFAL, he couldn't do enough to emphasize the Word and not Time, Look or Life.
This would be a great topic to explore. If he got off the Word and made it exclusively about his teaching of the Word, when did that turn take place?
As I mentioned, another church doing the same thing this morning. Probably a pattern problem
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Nathan_Jr
“Dr.”
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Charity
About the Founder
In the first paragraph, they fail to mention the two names he plagiarized the most - J.E. Stiles and Bullinger. I don't recognize most of the other men they do list. Did he publicly credit all of these men in his work?
Second paragraph is about his academic credentials. Two links concerning Pike's Peak Bible Seminary (aka Burton College) are Pikes Peak Bible Seminary (which mentions vpw) and GSC Thread Pike's Peak Seminary.
Third paragraph lists the colleges in Emporia and in Indiana - neither of which were ever accredited and are both now closed. Does anyone know if the corps program is still run out of Camp Gunnison as well as the headquarters in Ohio? This link talks about the accreditation issues around these two places. Camp Gunnison's Accreditation
The University of Life outreach courses, an international Biblical studies correspondence school, is mentioned in the final paragraph but I can't see where that is still available.
The article closes with the claim that vp held forth the greatness and the accuracy of God’s Word.
So the quote "The Word, the Word and nothing but the Word" also meant the Word of God according to vpw. Yet, how many of the classes offered by twi today are the original ones taught by him?
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Joe Maslow
Yes, Way Corps is still run out of Camp Gunnison and HQ. (WC 55 as far as I know).
They do not mention Stiles, Bullinger or Leonard cause it is so freakin' easy to prove he plagiarized them, if someone just goes to google and writes down "Stiles, Wierwille".
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Rocky
Btw, I don't project anything on to him. I was in the corps(e) 40 some years ago. I'm not interested in what he would or would not have wanted. I'm interested in what he said and did. From a strictly critical analysis perspective, it was his ministry. His organization. He wasn't about to let anyone disagree with him and get away with it.
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JoyfulSoul
God's wonderful, matchless word. The word! The word! The word!
I wasn't in too deep. I never got to see anyone challenge his understanding of the word.
If they don't follow a unity, liberty, charity model like the one I mentioned then it isn't a place for me regardless of what anyone said or did when they were alive 40 years ago.
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