wow I just read this entire thread. took me 8 hours, but I have the flu and can't do much of anything else.
Mike I'll tell you what I persoanlly know:
-VPW propositioned my mother and also drunkenly exposed himself to her. On more than one occasion
-VPW once told me when I was about 15 "when it come to girls there's a famous rule called the 5 F's:
1. find em
2. finger em
3. feel em
4. f**k em
5. Forget em
These rules do not apply to our sisters in Christ. I don't care what you do with the unbelievers at school"
VP gave me the green light to fornicate , but only with the girls at school!
-If it snows in the summer someone would have noticed, no matter how freakishly small the storm was. It would have been in the papers, it would be on record at Town Hall. It's not there because it didn't happen. You said you looked deeper into it. PLEASE ellaborate and do so spesificly.
-VPW did not invent the hookshot or give Ray Kroch the idea for McDonalds (yes I asked mr. Kroch myself when I met him at Padres game years ago)
-VPW was a pervert and liar. Not exactly who my God would chose to be the greatest prophet since Paul. I know Paul was a bad boy himself (Saul) but he repented. Vic would teach one minute and screw someone's wife the next.
I know you're gonna disagree but I am telling you the truth from my personal experience, not some rumour.
I am throughly completly, completly complete. Glory!
Hi Gang! I just got home and will be headed to bed (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) soon. I’ll try a quickie response to all this to match my earlier quickie.
Maybe I was wrong about the lack of discussion these four points got. I’ll have to read the above posts again tomorrow (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) when I’m refreshed. I’m still chuckling about Rafael’s jab. Maybe I deserved it. I got so little sleep last night (non-GS related). Who knows... maybe I’ll have to take back some things, but then again, maybe not.
I did see a few things in the responses to my 4 points that I’d take exception to. Then again there may be other points in my notes or memory (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....), but later.
Here is one observation that may help sooner or later, although it’s a bit remote at the present due to more data needed. Notice in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching that in the list (which occurs twice) of the three things he tells his top leaders (and us) to master are the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, but a conspicuous absence of the Advanced Class. Why? There are several possible reasons (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) but I’ll be brief for now.
It’s also the case that in the tape/print record that was available at the time of the teaching, there was nothing available for the AC except for a syllabus. The AC is again in a different category, compared to the other two classes.
Also the AC changed from year to year in that classes in the early years it had a lot more material on spirits, later it had less. Later AC’s heavily emphasized the Foundational Class as ultra important.
The Intermediate and Foundational were combined into one class a few times, and then separated again over several decades. But even when the were separate, the intermediate had a few collateral teachings included in the syllabus.
Then the POP from Chris Geer has some very interesting comments from Dr about him being unhappy with the AC. Now I opened a huge can of worms with this point (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) but that’ll have to wait for later. You will find when we get to the POP that I am much more in agreement with people here, even though I cited it here.
My main point here is that the Advanced Class seems to not be in the same category as the FC and the IC, and several pieces of evidence form that impression.
I have a large file on a seemingly unrelated subject that also fits in here, but it will take some time (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) to get it all out in English. I call that related topic “Private Conversations With Dr†and as you may have come to expect, it’s pretty long. In a nutshell I think it’s a big mistake to place things Dr said off tape, and especially in private as doctrinal in any way.
I have slowly formed a rating system even for tapes, where widely distributed SNS tapes of Dr’s are kinda high, while the Corps tapes and “in-house†tapes gravitate lower in priority.
At the top of the list are the written materials that Dr identifies in his last teaching. He often stressed that the highest priority, ultimate standard is “It Is Written.†This is the motto of the Way Corps, isn’t it? It is well know that Dr put much more time into getting the print record as perfect as possible, and he placed a bit lower priority on tape. He went over the print record many, many times. He hardly EVER edited tapes of teachings. Almost the entire film class was done with one take, and hardly any editing. The PFAL book changed quite a few things that are on the film, and was the result of much thought and discussion.
In answer to earlier questions to me about EXACTLY which books of his I regard God-breathed I must admit that I don’t know for sure...yet. The way I expect to know is to diligently work what I am from his final instructions. I’m still learning.
I’m just extremely picky as to what I’m meek to learn from. I decided this after much, much thought. Some of it is up in the air, but that doesn’t deter me. I’m having fun, I’m blessed, and it’s has helped me much, so don’t bother me about it.
It took Dr 27 years to earn this kind of respect, and I absolutely refuse to take seriously anyone who DEMANDS this kind of respect from me. I used to highly respect all the clergy and most of the Corps (not as high as I respect Dr now), but they ALL utterly destroyed that somewhat special respect I used to give them. I will respect them as fellow human beings, and as equal brothers in Christ today. But if tomorrow I learn of any one of them that he has a HEART to disobey Dr’s final instructions, then that respect rapidly plummets depending on how vehemently they think evil of my father in the Word. I’ll do my best to be civil and polite, but if they demand I think their way on any issue, I first consider the opposite and see if THAT lines up with the word.
Summing all this up, I think Dr made mistakes in the Advanced Class just like I think he made mistakes in private conversations. He was human. Like you and I, He had to say at points in time and in some stretches of time “Oh wretched man that I am†just like Paul did too. Several times in the available tape/print record Dr issued variations on the “I wish I were the man I know to be.â€
Dr didn’t say to master the Advanced Class, he obviously omitted it. Since I have NOT yet mastered what he DID tell me to master, I feel I’m unqualified to sort all this out just now. I do not know which things in there are wrong, but I do know that I’m not trying to master the AC so I don’t NEED to know this...yet. I’ve got enough on my plate as is. I wont rely on it, NOR will I take any pot shots at it.
(almost .... done ..... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....)
I mentioned in another post that it is an ominous task to purge ALL that Dr taught me if I were to come to believe he was lying with all his “Thus saith the Lord†claims. It’s not ominous, but is difficult for me to purge and/or set aside for the time being all the Advanced Class or all the private conversations I had with him. It’s difficult, but I’m working on it. I also have the task of purging, or setting aside, all the other verbal and written teachings of all the other Way teachers, and all my own private non-PFAL research, but I’m doing it.
To master some one set of things requires intensely focusing on that ONE set and none other. I do allow myself news and entertainment info, but no other teachers will I mix in with Dr’s material. I’m done with that. “No man can serve two masters†is part of this carefully chosen policy of mine. I want to really key in on Dr’s vocabulary (remember how we were taught that God used the vocabulary of the human writers in producing the Bible), and to do that I’ve eliminated meek reception of all other voices on the subject of God’s Word. I believe this is a safe thing to do ONLY after spending almost 30 years doing the opposite.
(almost .... done ..... must ......finish .... soon)
So surprise, surprise, I don’t hang on every word of the Advanced Class. I have quoted some of it here, but that is only material that is in agreement with the material I’m mastering.... so far.
(getting .... sooo ...... sleepy....)
So I don’t completely know all these answers that were asked of me... so far.
(grammar ..... slipping.... need ..... pronouns ...)
As I have time I’ll go over more details. All of life demands that we frequently must decide what is NOT going to get onto the high priority list, and what is NOT going to get done. One thing for sure I’ve locked onto is I must not think evil of Dr. I also know all the twelve apostles died of SOMETHING, as well as all the prophets, and I try to not think evil of them either. Same with GSers, even though THAT’s a challenge at times.
(soon .... will ..... sleep )
So, I’m still waiting for Pawtucket’s approval before continuing with this thread’s topic. My guess is that very few of you have old Way Magazines. If anyone wants a preview I’m going to the May/June 1979 issue. That is where we will find much material on exactly what Dr means by “master†as well as material on HOW to master. There are a few surprises there. Nighty night.
Geez Mike. That was a quickie response? I knew I should have studied harder in that speed reading course in school.
But the most important thing is that the score was S.F. 49ers 39, N.Y. Giants 38. It was quite a game and I was at 3 Com Park in San Francisco today to witness it. Had to have been the most exciting football game I have ever seen.
So Mike, what do you think of Georgio's recent posts? Specifically, what do you think of Wierwille's well known sexual lusts? I might add Georgio is only one of the many witnesses to this.
"One thing for sure I’ve locked onto is I must not think evil of Dr."
"But if tomorrow I learn of any one of them that he has a HEART to disobey Dr’s final instructions, then that respect rapidly plummets depending on how vehemently they think evil of my father in the Word."
"... I do allow myself news and entertainment info, but no other teachers will I mix in with Dr’s material. I’m done with that. “No man can serve two masters†is part of this carefully chosen policy of mine."
Heck Mike, I think that your own words hang you far more than anything I or anybody else can say.
And they are of your own choosing and belief, which pretty much kicks the old 'mind control' argument into the trash can. You have made up your own mind on this one, Mike.
I just will not follow you into 'obeying Dr.s final instructions', so I guess that puts me into your disrespect pile.
So now we're just supposed to take the Advanced Class as merely "for our learning", and not a direct revelation from God to Dr. Wierwille? Especially odd, as one of the requirements to take the AC was demonstrated mastery of the FC and IC so that we might separate truth from error.
What, then, of Rev. Earl Burton, instructor of the latter-day IC?
Mike, look, Rafael has tried to correct you via rational logic, Mark Sanguinetti and others have tried to correct you via Biblical logic, and I've tried via PFAL logic to get you to see that you are ensnared in a web of subtle idolatry that is contrary to the Word of God, common sense, and even Wierwille's own teachings. It's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, Mike.
It won't take 17 years of researching. Ever hear the phrase "looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight that isn't even there?" Dr. Wierwille said it himself--whenever we come to the Word with preconceived notions, to prove our point, we are already wrong. I would think that goes for his works especially.
Ultimately, who do you wish to serve? Dr. Wierwille, through his works, or God, through His Word? You do not have to "purge" yourself of everything VPW taught, that's impossible, as well as foolish. What you should do is put all the books and collaterals aside, get a fresh KJV with no TWI notes in it, and prove to yourself from the Word every single doctrine that you can recall. Remember, the Word of God has to fit from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, it has to be the Word of God everywhere. We are still in the same administration as Paul was in, so anything that Dr. Wierwille said cannot contradict or supersede what the Epistles say--God would have to change administrations again to make such a reversal according to His Word, and that's not going to happen until Christ comes back.
Now, if you find that Dr. Wierwille was absolutely right on something, what does that tell you? That he interpreted it the way God meant it to be. If you find he was wrong on something (see Rafael's list of actual errors in PFAL for a start), you absolutely MUST follow God instead of Dr. Wierwille. We study to show ourselves approved to God, not men, after all.
At the end, you may just find that you have a greater appreciation for God's work, and see Dr. Wierwille's stuff as illustrative at best, not authoritative as you currently believe. You won't necessarily start going to Church, believing in the trinity, or praying to dead people. Or you might--several here have gone from VPW back to orthodoxy. Whichever way you go, make sure that it is the best possible decision based on what you can absolutely prove from the Bible.
That's all any of us can do, being imperfect before the Perfect One.
God bless,
Zixar
...And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. -- Victor Paul Wierwille, from his Last Teaching.
Mike, no response to the responses to your "four issues?"
Don't you think it was utterly callous, meanspirited, vicious, and deliberately dishonest for Mr. Weirwille to chastise "Churchianity" for its inneffective "Sisters of the Poor Bleeding Heart" approach to the sick and poor, when he himself was quickly assuming room temperature from a disease he had loudly proclaimed was the result of Devil Spirit Possession?
How many people in TWI actually knew about his condition? How many times did he LIE about it when asked directly about his cancer? Given your public stance, don't mustn't you argue that when Weirwille lied about his cancer he was doing the right and godly thing? In Passage of the Old Poop, you see a lot of totally dishonest, unprocessed and impotent anger by the Old Grifter. I believe it was partially due to the fact that he had backed himself into a corner. There was absolutely no way to justify his public lies about cancer and he knew it.
Cancer isn't something you can mess around with. The truth hurts, but it also sets the cancer survivor free. This is all contrary to Mr. Weirwille's public personnae. His lies killed him. He couldn't even tell the truth about something as vital as his medical condition. So he lied. He dishonestly placed the guilt for his condition on his associates and their actions.
POP would have been the ideal time to retract a very public and vicious and unbiblical doctrine. Yet the Old Grifter lied to the end.
I guess by that time, he could no longer stop himself, even if it would have helped him.
In Mike's early posts in this thread he stated that PFAL was God-breathed, that it was superior to the available versions of the bible because these versions were corrupted by men, but that PFAL was revelation, and thus not corrupted. He later included the collateral volumes as God-breathed as well, and by implication, he included what Wierwille said in certain public teaching venues.
I don't think anyone argued that everything out of Wierwille's mouth was wrong, but many put forth that his words must be compared to the bible, not the bible to his words. Numerous examples of verifiable errors in PFAL have been put forth, and at least one contradiction between statements in two different Wierwille volumes.
The conclusion of most of the participants in this thread was that Wierwille's words, due to the demonstrable errors, could therefore not be God-breathed; but must be examined statement by statement like anyone else's.
Even if we think that that all of VP taught was right, it still must be scrutizied for accuracy.
Now we have this statement by St. Michael:
quote:In answer to earlier questions to me about EXACTLY which books of his I regard God-breathed I must admit that I don’t know for sure...yet.
Hmmm...maybe some aren't? Isn't that what we've been saying? And how do we determine this?
quote:The way I expect to know is to diligently work what I am from his final instructions. I’m still learning.
For a minute there I thought he was back-pedaling, but he isn't really. Mike is going to tell us which of Wierwille's works were God-breathed, and which were not...based on what Wierwille said! Oh! I tremble with anticipation (yes, that was sarcasm for any who are keeping score)
And let's not overlook this gem:
quote:He (Wierwille)often stressed that the highest priority, ultimate standard is “It Is Written.†This is the motto of the Way Corps, isn’t it? It is well know that Dr put much more time into getting the print record as perfect as possible, and he placed a bit lower priority on tape. He went over the print record many, many times
Who here thinks Wierwille was talking about his own writings when he made "It Is Written" the Way Corps motto?
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
Excathedra wrote: “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his worksâ€
Exy, you are 100% correct in citing and applying the last part of that verse. MAYBE his cancer was a part of that “reward†but that’s none of our business, so I don’t focus much on it.
Since you brought this subject to me for comment, I’ll do it. If you don’t want to see what I say about it, the PgDn key is close by. If you ARE going to read what I wrote, please be well rested (I learned this was important in the wee hours of Sunday this week), and think about it all for a few hours before you respond. I know this is a difficult subject for you, and it has been for a lot of people, including me.
I too am learning that I must get quiet to hear the True God’s still small voice in dealing with difficult matters. Emotion often feels like it will help energize my response with maximum horsepower, but I’ve learned the hard way it can also run me off the road and over the cliff. Emotion is great for physical interactions, like hard labor or fight/flight kinds of things, but lousy for recalling detailed Biblical advice and hearing God’s still small voice.
I think you may be mis-applying the first part of that verse. MY OPINION is that your business regarding this matter is to forgive, forget, and get totally healed. I KNOW FOR SURE that God wants all three for you. That’s what your Bible says in MANY places and in MANY ways. If you choose to ignore these Bible passages then how could you in good conscience criticize me for not being biblical enough? Maybe you don’t.
There are many things I have done in my life I’m not proud of, but let me assure you that a skinny science nerd like myself never got “lucky†enough to do the things you find most reprehensible. If I had had those “troops†I too may have invaded Poland once or twice. I saw ALL my college roommates and most of my friends try, and sometimes succeed, in doing terrible things to women (usually very young and dumb) that sometimes turned my stomach. But then there were also those times that I was green, not with disgust, but with envy.
You are either going to have to learn to forgive this innate weakness the adversary exploits in 99% of all men, or 99% of the men on this board are going to be thinking of ways to hide it from you. If any man denies this extremely strong pressure the adversary wields, I’d suspect he’ll also deny that he masturbates. Either a medical condition or a jaded conscience to lying can bring a man to claim he is in that 1% category that’s totally innocent.
Before you become an arch feminist over this statistic, I suggest you first research the innate weakness(s) the adversary exploits in 99% of all WOMEN. Now THERE’S a hot new thread someone can start.
Now, regarding forgiving, forgetting, and healing, maybe you have already done some or all of that, THAT’S none of MY business, unless you bring the issue to my door, which you have.
If you want any help in that area, many of the cooler biblical heads here are capable of at least showing you the verses. Maybe Research Geek.
Now, Exy, back to the second half of the verse you quoted. There are many things I have done in my life for which I am still paying the price, even though I’ve gotten back into fellowship with Father. The same thing happened to David, NOT for his sexual problem per se, but for murder. He had to suffer with the consequences of his sin for many years, even though he was back in fellowship and writing Psalms from God.
And who knows how many more sins of his went undocumented. It’s not easy for a normal person to knock up a best friend’s wife and then have her husband killed without a LOT of warming up and practice. It’s called becoming jaded. It takes lots of time and sin USUALLY to get as bad as David did. God only documented in His Word what we needed for our learning.
I suppose God covered for David on his warm-up sins, or we’d all be tearing Psalms out of our Bibles. Plus the Father would surely WANT to cover the sins of His adopted son, David. I feel the exact same about my father in the Word. During Dr’s lifetime, God did the same kind of covering, else the collaterals would have never been printed up and so widely distributed.
And Proverbs would have been LONG gone if we all were really consistent in purging our lives of all male-sin and the products of great male-sinners. How many of Solomon’s wives do you think he mistreated? AT LEAST a couple hundred is my guess from listening to the OT History tapes, and from my participating in the male gender.
Exy, the timing of “God’s†reward mentioned in your above verse is not only in the future at judgement. (I used quotes there to indicate the idiom of permission.) Jesus talked about how giving is rewarded BOTH in this life and the next. That works for negative giving too.
Don’t worry, God is not mocked by anyone, even VPW, and whatsoever a man sows that will he reap also. Vengeance is MINE says the Lord. God will even the score for you MUCH better than you can ever dream to even it by being bitter and besmirching the good that Dr also did do for you and us. God will reward him for that too.
God will also reward you for your valiant effort to forgive, forget, and accept total healing, whether you’ve completed it or still working on it. Like Paul wrote to Philemon, Jesus Christ says with all the authority of God Almighty to you, Exy, “Put it on my charge account, I’ll pay in total for all VPW’s sins to you, just as I paid for your sins against others.†How do I know that? Precedent. It is written.
Zix, for myself, I’m simply not trying to master the AC. If you want more detail as to how to deal with it’s status, I suggest you get down to serious mastery of the collaterals. Then and only then will you get to “all nine all the time,†and then you can ask God for your answer.
If you think you can skip around the collaterals and ask, I think you’re asking for trouble. The devil can counterfeit God’s voice so well that only a master can tell them apart. The past 2000 years of failure at “all nine all the time†shows me it’s useless to try and “5-senses†my way in an end run around the devil’s defenses. He’s smarter than any 5-senses researcher. Look what he did to Bullinger regarding SIT. A mere 5-senses researcher NEEDS the extra boost of revelation to get through all the confusion that the arch intellectual devil has erected.
Do you see the catch-22 here? The 5-senses researcher is trying to learn the difference between God and His counterfeit, but in order to learn this he must be able to ALREADY tell the difference to obtain and hear the needed extra boost God’s voice will give him over the devil’s smarts.
The only way out of this 2000 year (at least) old vicious cycle is God has step in. That’s what the 1942 promise was and is. And that project of fixing His Word that God initiated was basically finished after 40 years of Him working with Dr. This is stated by Dr as his last words to Craig at Craig’s installation, and it’s on the same tape I quoted on the “News Flash!†thread about Craig’s non-spiritual installation.
Another thing the rare “spiritually boosted researcher†needs is the courage to face the fire of tradition and it’s many, many vehement adherents.
God has had to OFTEN wait a long time for JUST the right individual with these unique characteristics (super diligent in 5-senses work, super meek to God ONLY, and willing to take on the war with tradition with gusto) to come along for many of the job HE wanted done. Examples: Moses, John the Baptist, Mary. As far as the job of restoring God’s Word (like in Jer.36) it took 2000 years for God to find BOTH a tough ornery contrarian crowd like us to believe, and a tough ornery contrarian like Dr to teach us.
Larry P – What you are referring to (Dr’s nasty talk on cancer) does not exist in the tape/print record that I am aware of. I think it’s mostly an exaggggggeration based on a few rare bad days Dr might have had off the record. I also highly suspect a major source of your impression can come from mixing in other sources of such nastiness. I’m thinking specifically of a botched re-iteration of Dr’s teaching by the evil Corps/clergy that I have OFTEN witnessed with my own eyes, both back in the good old days, the fog years, and even today in every splinter group.
Unless we really work hard at it, it’s unlikely most of us can separate out in our memories “who said what†looking back some 20 years or more.
Dr’s tape/print record and his casual remarks are all jumbled together in all of our heads along with much of what we heard from and saw in the declining leadership from Legion Leaders to twig leaders. The end product of all this mixing and combining ends up being what I call the “verbal tradition†we were subject to. That verbal tradition sucked real bad! It was pretty bad in the late Seventies, and it went down hill from there.
Dr fought this evil verbal tradition in The Way and his fight IS in the record, in many places and in many ways. We just didn’t pay attention. We can now, though, because it’s being found on a daily basis by a small handful of people like me who decide to return to that record with a heart to meekly master what Dr told us to master in his Last/Lost Teaching.
Oakspear, you and others keep referring to comparing PFAL to the Bible, but you all keep ignoring the major problem that we don’t really HAVE the Bible, only what a very large team of scholars have given us.
I’ve repeated demonstrated in many posts, the simplest and most complete of which is “Feelings,†that this tradition provided “Bible†is only approximate. Why do you keep shoving this intractable problem under the rug? Is it because it’s difficult to deal with?
You cannot go into a single bookstore on this planet and buy THE Bible in English.
You can only buy...
.......................a version
.................................of a translation
..........................................of a modern critical compilation
Tell me how you solve this problem so that you can do your error checking in comparing of PFAL to “the Bible.â€
You’re not really using the Bible but and approximation of the Bible, and God did better than a mere approximation like that in what He taught Dr and Dr taught us.
Abigail, how do you know David did not have undocumented relapses at times. Old habits are hard to break, so I'd need a lot of Biblical proof before I believed your shooting from the hip.
How do you know "99% of all men do not use their power/position or physical force to sexually abuse women." ???? What percentage have you mneasured? I got my estimate from being a man and hearing men talk when women are not around. I also know there's some basis to "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." I also know there are exceptions to that, but in the adversary's kingdom they are few. The ONLY one I know who totally resisted this is our lord Jesus Christ.
quote:How do you know "99% of all men do not use their power/position or physical force to sexually abuse women." ???? What percentage have you mneasured? I got my estimate from being a man and hearing men talk when women are not around. I also know there's some basis to "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." I also know there are exceptions to that, but in the adversary's kingdom they are few. The ONLY one I know who totally resisted this is our lord Jesus Christ.
Mike, you truly are a disciple of the Ol' Vic, in every way. Thank you for making that abundantly clear. You just keep on researching, dude, it will keep you away from the rest of us. "Ever learning, and never able to the knowledge of the truth."
If you find and work things right with some under-employed academicians in a university psychology department, you might be able to turn your paleo-groupie-of-a-dead-megalomaniacal-heretic condition into a extended-study cash cow.
I never said that all abusers are of equal degree. The potential is in all of us men.
The same is the sad fact with women. They often abuse THEIR chemical power over men. It's just not in style to reveal this and it IS in style to hide it.
This is really long, but it mostly addresses specific things Mike wrote.
quote:Originally posted by Mike…
Here is one observation that may help sooner or later, although it’s a bit remote at the present due to more data needed. Notice in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching that in the list (which occurs twice) of the three things he tells his top leaders (and us) to master are the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, but a conspicuous absence of the Advanced Class. Why?
I was under the impression from your earlier posts that Wierwille had finished his work and was ready to die. Yet now you make it clear that there was a major portion of his work that was left undone. So, which is it?
quote:It’s also the case that in the tape/print record that was available at the time of the teaching, there was nothing available for the AC except for a syllabus. The AC is again in a different category, compared to the other two classes.
Actually, not much of the Intermediate class exists in written form, at least not written by Victor Paul Wierwille.
quote:The Intermediate and Foundational were combined into one class a few times, and then separated again over several decades. But even when the were separate, the intermediate had a few collateral teachings included in the syllabus.
Most of which was written by other people, no?
quote:My main point here is that the Advanced Class seems to not be in the same category as the FC and the IC, and several pieces of evidence form that impression.
Are you now saying the Intermediate Class was God-breathed? I’m lost. They ditched Wierwille’s Intermediate Class for Earl Burton’s. Why would Wierwille permit the God-breathed Word to be replaced with a cheap carbon copy?
quote:I have a large file on a seemingly unrelated subject that also fits in here,
Somehow, that does not surprise me.
quote:In a nutshell I think it’s a big mistake to place things Dr said off tape, and especially in private as doctrinal in any way.
You’re on the right track. Now, take it to the next step…
quote:I have slowly formed a rating system even for tapes, where widely distributed SNS tapes of Dr’s are kinda high, while the Corps tapes and “in-house†tapes gravitate lower in priority.
Holy cow.
quote:At the top of the list are the written materials that Dr identifies in his last teaching. He often stressed that the highest priority, ultimate standard is “It Is Written.†This is the motto of the Way Corps, isn’t it? It is well know that Dr put much more time into getting the print record as perfect as possible, and he placed a bit lower priority on tape.
As others have eloquently noted, Wierwille was thinking of THE BIBLE, not his own writings, when he quoted “It Is Written†and made it the motto of his Way Corps. There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to suggest that he was thinking of his own writings.
quote: He went over the print record many, many times.
Proof positive that he did not consider it “God-breathed,†as he felt comfortable adding words, subtracting words and changing words.
quote: He hardly EVER edited tapes of teachings.
Well, DUHHHH! What’s he supposed to do, jump in a time machine and re-teach the Rock of Ages until he gets it right?
quote: Almost the entire film class was done with one take, and hardly any editing. The PFAL book changed quite a few things that are on the film, and was the result of much thought and discussion.
It was the result of much thought and discussion. It was not a result of God breathing. It was a result of MAN’s thought and MAN’s discussion. God doesn’t give revelation by committee.
quote:I’m just extremely picky as to what I’m meek to learn from. I decided this after much, much thought. Some of it is up in the air, but that doesn’t deter me. I’m having fun, I’m blessed, and it’s has helped me much, so don’t bother me about it.
Picky: meaning, of course, you are only meek to learn from the written works of Victor Paul Wierwille. And not even that: for Wierwille’s written words reject your thesis, and your dismissive attitude toward the Bible.
quote:It took Dr 27 years to earn this kind of respect,
Really? It took him far less time to “earn†his doctorate.
quote: and I absolutely refuse to take seriously anyone who DEMANDS this kind of respect from me.
I see you’re beginning to understand our reaction to you.
quote:I will respect them as fellow human beings, and as equal brothers in Christ today.
Do you respect Wierwille as MORE than that?
quote:But if tomorrow I learn of any one of them that he has a HEART to disobey Dr’s final instructions, then that respect rapidly plummets depending on how vehemently they think evil of my father in the Word.
I believe your father in the Word was an error-prone, sexual predator who abused his position in the church in order to seduce women. I also think he was a plagiarist who dishonestly took credit for what others wrote. Will you leave me alone now?
Earlier, you wrote that God told the same thing to Wierwille that he told men before him. I would be inclined to accept that if not for the uncontested evidence that Wierwille read and had access to the men’s works BEFORE he wrote his own. Wierwille learned to speak in tongues from Stiles, then suddenly, his book quotes Stiles as though the words are Wierwille’s. That’s plagiarism. Your explanation for it is pure head-in-the-sand denial. Be my guest, but my respect for you rapidly plummets depending on your refusal to see the simple truth in front of you.
quote: Since I have NOT yet mastered what he DID tell me to master, I feel I’m unqualified to sort all this out just now.
For once, we agree. Had you mastered what Dr. told you to master, you would be rejecting your theory, just as Wierwille did.
quote:I do not know which things in there are wrong.
I’ve got a list.
quote:I mentioned in another post that it is an ominous task to purge ALL that Dr taught me if I were to come to believe he was lying with all his “Thus saith the Lord†claims.
AGAIN with the false dichotomy! Mike, it’s not ALL OR NOTHING. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good. That’s the Biblical mandate.
quote:I do allow myself news and entertainment info.
Good, my job is safe.
quote:“No man can serve two masters†is part of this carefully chosen policy of mine.
I think it was Abigail who nailed you on this one. Your master should be God, in Christ. Not Wierwille. You have chosen the works of a flawed man as your master. That’s idolatry.
quote:I’ve eliminated meek reception of all other voices on the subject of God’s Word.
We’ve noticed. I will, henceforth, treat YOUR assessment of God’s Word with the same lack of respect with which you treat mine. Thanks kindly for your declaration.
quote:So surprise, surprise, I don’t hang on every word of the Advanced Class. I have quoted some of it here, but that is only material that is in agreement with the material I’m mastering.... so far.
Most of us are taking this approach with EVERYTHING Wierwille said and taught. We’re supposed to be impressed because you’re not bowing before the Advanced Class? Yeah, right, whatever.
quote: One thing for sure I’ve locked onto is I must not think evil of Dr.
Must… not… think… evil… of… Dr….
Mike, your foolishness in this statement has already been addressed, so I’m not going to repeat it.
quote: I also know all the twelve apostles died of SOMETHING, as well as all the prophets, and I try to not think evil of them either. Same with GSers, even though THAT’s a challenge at times.
WOAH! The apostles NEVER claimed that they could stay alive by their believing, or that they would die only when they stopped believing. No one’s knocking Wierwille for getting cancer. What we’re saying is that he should have come clean and said he was WRONG to say cancer was a devil spirit, and apologize to the people he hurt by implying they were outside of the will of God because of their cancer. It was his HYPOCRISY we are criticizing, not his illness. (I’ll note that, along with Oldies, I never heard Wierwille say this. I’m only reacting to your comparison of Wierwille with the apostles).
And in Mike’s more recent post…
quote:
I think you may be mis-applying the first part of that verse. MY OPINION is that your business regarding this matter is to forgive, forget, and get totally healed.
Where does God say to forget? Let me tell you something: if you sexually abuse me or someone close to me, I may forgive you, but I don’t think the Bible commands me to forget it. And as long as some Wierwille-worshipping idolater continues to laud him as God’s prophet, and his works as God-breathed, we need people who are willing to stand up and say THE MAN WAS A SEXUAL PREDATOR who ABUSED his position in the Body of Christ to HURT God’s people. How DARE you tell people to forget that? Look, it’s as much a part of his legacy as PFAL. It’s a reminder to us not to worship a man, but you are doing that anyway. What GALL!
Show me where the Bible says to FORGET?
quote:There are many things I have done in my life I’m not proud of, but let me assure you that a skinny science nerd like myself never got “lucky†enough to do the things you find most reprehensible.
Have you SEEN Wierwille? It wasn’t his looks. It was his abuse of his position of power. My goodness, after 27 years, you can’t see this?
quote:If I had had those “troops†I too may have invaded Poland once or twice.
If you really feel that way, if you honestly think that of yourself, then do me a favor and lose my phone number. I will never pick up, and will never return your call.
quote:I saw ALL my college roommates and most of my friends try, and sometimes succeed, in doing terrible things to women (usually very young and dumb) that sometimes turned my stomach. But then there were also those times that I was green, not with disgust, but with envy.
They had NOTHING on Wierwille.
quote: Either a medical condition or a jaded conscience to lying can bring a man to claim he is in that 1% category that’s totally innocent.
No one is claiming or requiring innocence. But I expect, no, I DEMAND that my pastors do not abuse their positions to seduce the flock, that they do not practice and excuse rampant adultery. My GOD, Mike, have you abandoned all reason?
quote: The same thing happened to David, NOT for his sexual problem per se, but for murder. He had to suffer with the consequences of his sin for many years, even though he was back in fellowship and writing Psalms from God.
Psst. Come here. BULLSH!T. You think David’s sexual sin was not the real issue? Explain Nathan’s story. Nathan does not even MENTION the murder of Uriah! He mentions how someone took another man’s sheep. Nothing in Nathan’s story about killing anything or anyone. Nathan’s story was SPECIFICALLY about David’s adultery, and you come along, what 3,000 years later, and say David was reproved for murder, not for adultery? Fool!
quote:Plus the Father would surely WANT to cover the sins of His adopted son, David. I feel the exact same about my father in the Word. During Dr’s lifetime, God did the same kind of covering, else the collaterals would have never been printed up and so widely distributed.
So the fact that the collaterals are published and distributed are proof that God’s hand was on it? Dude, the Satanic Bible has sold more copies than PFAL. That proves NOTHING. And what “widely distributed.†Less than 100,000 people have a complete set. On earth!
quote:And Proverbs would have been LONG gone if we all were really consistent in purging our lives of all male-sin and the products of great male-sinners. How many of Solomon’s wives do you think he mistreated? AT LEAST a couple hundred is my guess from listening to the OT History tapes, and from my participating in the male gender.
Mike, you NUT, the Proverbs were written BEFORE that!
quote:If you think you can skip around the collaterals and ask, I think you’re asking for trouble. The devil can counterfeit God’s voice so well that only a master can tell them apart.
Meek Master Mike is back.
quote:The only way out of this 2000 year (at least) old vicious cycle is God has step in. That’s what the 1942 promise was and is.
A lie is what the 1942 promise was and is.
quote: And that project of fixing His Word that God initiated was basically finished after 40 years of Him working with Dr. This is stated by Dr as his last words to Craig at Craig’s installation, and it’s on the same tape I quoted on the “News Flash!†thread about Craig’s non-spiritual installation.
Wierwille said it. That settles it. You believe it.
quote:Another thing the rare “spiritually boosted researcher†needs is the courage to face the fire of tradition and its many, many vehement adherents.
Again with the straw man. They don’t agree with you: they must be in favor of tradition. I reject your FALSE, LYING accusation.
quote:Examples: Moses, John the Baptist, Mary. As far as the job of restoring God’s Word (like in Jer.36) it took 2000 years for God to find BOTH a tough ornery contrarian crowd like us to believe, and a tough ornery contrarian like Dr to teach us.
That’s rich. Ever hear of Charles Taze Russell? Tough, ornery contrarian, rejected the Trinity and rejected immediate life after death, founded a Christian sect people have actually HEARD of. Your Wierwille is a pathetic WANNABE compared to Charles Taze Russell.
Until now I have accused you of worshipping Wierwille’s writings alone. I now assert that you worship Wierwille as well: not as perfect, but as above and beyond any other Christian. Your idolatry exceeds anything I thought it was.
quote:Oakspear, you and others keep referring to comparing PFAL to the Bible, but you all keep ignoring the major problem that we don’t really HAVE the Bible, only what a very large team of scholars have given us.
YOU HYPOCRITE! Wierwille did not treat the Bible with such disrespect as you have! Wierwille said, repeatedly, that the Bible CAN be trusted. His whole claim to understanding the Word came from (supposedly) taking thousands of books to the city dump and going straight to the Bible. YOU reject the Book Wierwille praised. You HYPOCRITE! If Wierwille heard you, his fingers would BLEED from slapping you so repeatedly.
quote:I’ve repeated demonstrated in many posts, the simplest and most complete of which is “Feelings,†that this tradition provided “Bible†is only approximate. Why do you keep shoving this intractable problem under the rug? Is it because it’s difficult to deal with?
You’ve finally cracked.
quote:Tell me how you solve this problem so that you can do your error checking in comparing of PFAL to “the Bible.â€
What was Wierwille’s saying: Chapter and Verse, please? That was HIS saying. HE expected us to take whatever was taught and compare it to THE BIBLE, not his own books. That you can study his works for three decades and come away with such a profound disrespect for God’s Word strikes me as the ultimate paradox. You disgrace the man you worship.
Listen, Meek Master Mike, if Wierwille held the Bible with the same disregard as you, do tell, why did he spend so much time teaching us how to read it?
quote:You’re not really using the Bible but and approximation of the Bible, and God did better than a mere approximation like that in what He taught Dr and Dr taught us.
Given a choice between never having PFAL again, and never having the Bible again, I’d lose PFAL in a heartbeat. Wanna know something scary? So would Wierwille.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 06, 2003 at 12:21.]
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T-Bone
Great posts Rocky & Waysider ! Sometimes wierwille apologetics make me think of an Old Testament passage: 20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and
Bolshevik
He tells them to be joyful. Doesn't explain how. The Word says be joyful *POOF* you are now joyful. Like when claiming verses. Craftily disconnects the motive from the action. . . .
WordWolf
Yes. BTW, anyone who wants a quick summary of the main points of that entire transcript, it's simple. I said it before: "Serving people is important for Christians. Therefore, master
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Georgio Jessio
wow I just read this entire thread. took me 8 hours, but I have the flu and can't do much of anything else.
Mike I'll tell you what I persoanlly know:
-VPW propositioned my mother and also drunkenly exposed himself to her. On more than one occasion
-VPW once told me when I was about 15 "when it come to girls there's a famous rule called the 5 F's:
1. find em
2. finger em
3. feel em
4. f**k em
5. Forget em
These rules do not apply to our sisters in Christ. I don't care what you do with the unbelievers at school"
VP gave me the green light to fornicate , but only with the girls at school!
-If it snows in the summer someone would have noticed, no matter how freakishly small the storm was. It would have been in the papers, it would be on record at Town Hall. It's not there because it didn't happen. You said you looked deeper into it. PLEASE ellaborate and do so spesificly.
-VPW did not invent the hookshot or give Ray Kroch the idea for McDonalds (yes I asked mr. Kroch myself when I met him at Padres game years ago)
-VPW was a pervert and liar. Not exactly who my God would chose to be the greatest prophet since Paul. I know Paul was a bad boy himself (Saul) but he repented. Vic would teach one minute and screw someone's wife the next.
I know you're gonna disagree but I am telling you the truth from my personal experience, not some rumour.
I am throughly completly, completly complete. Glory!
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Georgio Jessio
Oh I almost forgot: Dr. was not a dr.
My skin crawls everytime you call him "Dr.". Pike's Peak man. You can't deny the doctorate was bogus. But I bet you will.
I am throughly completly, completly complete. Glory!
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Mike
Hi Gang! I just got home and will be headed to bed (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) soon. I’ll try a quickie response to all this to match my earlier quickie.
Maybe I was wrong about the lack of discussion these four points got. I’ll have to read the above posts again tomorrow (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) when I’m refreshed. I’m still chuckling about Rafael’s jab. Maybe I deserved it. I got so little sleep last night (non-GS related). Who knows... maybe I’ll have to take back some things, but then again, maybe not.
I did see a few things in the responses to my 4 points that I’d take exception to. Then again there may be other points in my notes or memory (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....), but later.
Here is one observation that may help sooner or later, although it’s a bit remote at the present due to more data needed. Notice in Dr’s Last/Lost Teaching that in the list (which occurs twice) of the three things he tells his top leaders (and us) to master are the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, but a conspicuous absence of the Advanced Class. Why? There are several possible reasons (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) but I’ll be brief for now.
It’s also the case that in the tape/print record that was available at the time of the teaching, there was nothing available for the AC except for a syllabus. The AC is again in a different category, compared to the other two classes.
Also the AC changed from year to year in that classes in the early years it had a lot more material on spirits, later it had less. Later AC’s heavily emphasized the Foundational Class as ultra important.
The Intermediate and Foundational were combined into one class a few times, and then separated again over several decades. But even when the were separate, the intermediate had a few collateral teachings included in the syllabus.
Then the POP from Chris Geer has some very interesting comments from Dr about him being unhappy with the AC. Now I opened a huge can of worms with this point (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) but that’ll have to wait for later. You will find when we get to the POP that I am much more in agreement with people here, even though I cited it here.
My main point here is that the Advanced Class seems to not be in the same category as the FC and the IC, and several pieces of evidence form that impression.
I have a large file on a seemingly unrelated subject that also fits in here, but it will take some time (... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....) to get it all out in English. I call that related topic “Private Conversations With Dr†and as you may have come to expect, it’s pretty long. In a nutshell I think it’s a big mistake to place things Dr said off tape, and especially in private as doctrinal in any way.
I have slowly formed a rating system even for tapes, where widely distributed SNS tapes of Dr’s are kinda high, while the Corps tapes and “in-house†tapes gravitate lower in priority.
At the top of the list are the written materials that Dr identifies in his last teaching. He often stressed that the highest priority, ultimate standard is “It Is Written.†This is the motto of the Way Corps, isn’t it? It is well know that Dr put much more time into getting the print record as perfect as possible, and he placed a bit lower priority on tape. He went over the print record many, many times. He hardly EVER edited tapes of teachings. Almost the entire film class was done with one take, and hardly any editing. The PFAL book changed quite a few things that are on the film, and was the result of much thought and discussion.
In answer to earlier questions to me about EXACTLY which books of his I regard God-breathed I must admit that I don’t know for sure...yet. The way I expect to know is to diligently work what I am from his final instructions. I’m still learning.
I’m just extremely picky as to what I’m meek to learn from. I decided this after much, much thought. Some of it is up in the air, but that doesn’t deter me. I’m having fun, I’m blessed, and it’s has helped me much, so don’t bother me about it.
It took Dr 27 years to earn this kind of respect, and I absolutely refuse to take seriously anyone who DEMANDS this kind of respect from me. I used to highly respect all the clergy and most of the Corps (not as high as I respect Dr now), but they ALL utterly destroyed that somewhat special respect I used to give them. I will respect them as fellow human beings, and as equal brothers in Christ today. But if tomorrow I learn of any one of them that he has a HEART to disobey Dr’s final instructions, then that respect rapidly plummets depending on how vehemently they think evil of my father in the Word. I’ll do my best to be civil and polite, but if they demand I think their way on any issue, I first consider the opposite and see if THAT lines up with the word.
Summing all this up, I think Dr made mistakes in the Advanced Class just like I think he made mistakes in private conversations. He was human. Like you and I, He had to say at points in time and in some stretches of time “Oh wretched man that I am†just like Paul did too. Several times in the available tape/print record Dr issued variations on the “I wish I were the man I know to be.â€
Dr didn’t say to master the Advanced Class, he obviously omitted it. Since I have NOT yet mastered what he DID tell me to master, I feel I’m unqualified to sort all this out just now. I do not know which things in there are wrong, but I do know that I’m not trying to master the AC so I don’t NEED to know this...yet. I’ve got enough on my plate as is. I wont rely on it, NOR will I take any pot shots at it.
(almost .... done ..... must ...... avoid ..... posting .... too .... much ....)
I mentioned in another post that it is an ominous task to purge ALL that Dr taught me if I were to come to believe he was lying with all his “Thus saith the Lord†claims. It’s not ominous, but is difficult for me to purge and/or set aside for the time being all the Advanced Class or all the private conversations I had with him. It’s difficult, but I’m working on it. I also have the task of purging, or setting aside, all the other verbal and written teachings of all the other Way teachers, and all my own private non-PFAL research, but I’m doing it.
To master some one set of things requires intensely focusing on that ONE set and none other. I do allow myself news and entertainment info, but no other teachers will I mix in with Dr’s material. I’m done with that. “No man can serve two masters†is part of this carefully chosen policy of mine. I want to really key in on Dr’s vocabulary (remember how we were taught that God used the vocabulary of the human writers in producing the Bible), and to do that I’ve eliminated meek reception of all other voices on the subject of God’s Word. I believe this is a safe thing to do ONLY after spending almost 30 years doing the opposite.
(almost .... done ..... must ......finish .... soon)
So surprise, surprise, I don’t hang on every word of the Advanced Class. I have quoted some of it here, but that is only material that is in agreement with the material I’m mastering.... so far.
(getting .... sooo ...... sleepy....)
So I don’t completely know all these answers that were asked of me... so far.
(grammar ..... slipping.... need ..... pronouns ...)
As I have time I’ll go over more details. All of life demands that we frequently must decide what is NOT going to get onto the high priority list, and what is NOT going to get done. One thing for sure I’ve locked onto is I must not think evil of Dr. I also know all the twelve apostles died of SOMETHING, as well as all the prophets, and I try to not think evil of them either. Same with GSers, even though THAT’s a challenge at times.
(soon .... will ..... sleep )
So, I’m still waiting for Pawtucket’s approval before continuing with this thread’s topic. My guess is that very few of you have old Way Magazines. If anyone wants a preview I’m going to the May/June 1979 issue. That is where we will find much material on exactly what Dr means by “master†as well as material on HOW to master. There are a few surprises there. Nighty night.
(snoooooooooooor blblblblblblbl snoooooooooooor blblblblblblbl)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Geez Mike. That was a quickie response? I knew I should have studied harder in that speed reading course in school.
But the most important thing is that the score was S.F. 49ers 39, N.Y. Giants 38. It was quite a game and I was at 3 Com Park in San Francisco today to witness it. Had to have been the most exciting football game I have ever seen.
So Mike, what do you think of Georgio's recent posts? Specifically, what do you think of Wierwille's well known sexual lusts? I might add Georgio is only one of the many witnesses to this.
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excathedra
georgio, thanks for posting. i've experienced what your mom experienced and other stuff.
i never knew about ww's 5 F's. how lovely. but he was freakin liar -- he practiced that with his sisters in christ -- probably exclusively
gosh what a nice father figure teaching a 15 year old boy how to treat the girls in school
ahhhh warms my heart
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excathedra
oh sorry, edit to above post, he was mostly into his daughters in christ lol
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GarthP2000
"One thing for sure I’ve locked onto is I must not think evil of Dr."
"But if tomorrow I learn of any one of them that he has a HEART to disobey Dr’s final instructions, then that respect rapidly plummets depending on how vehemently they think evil of my father in the Word."
"... I do allow myself news and entertainment info, but no other teachers will I mix in with Dr’s material. I’m done with that. “No man can serve two masters†is part of this carefully chosen policy of mine."
Heck Mike, I think that your own words hang you far more than anything I or anybody else can say.
And they are of your own choosing and belief, which pretty much kicks the old 'mind control' argument into the trash can. You have made up your own mind on this one, Mike.
I just will not follow you into 'obeying Dr.s final instructions', so I guess that puts me into your disrespect pile.
Not that I give a rat's a** about tho'.
Caio.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Raf
Mike,
Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike.
Mike.
Mike? Mike!
Oh Mike.
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excathedra
2Ti 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works.
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Zixar
So now we're just supposed to take the Advanced Class as merely "for our learning", and not a direct revelation from God to Dr. Wierwille? Especially odd, as one of the requirements to take the AC was demonstrated mastery of the FC and IC so that we might separate truth from error.
What, then, of Rev. Earl Burton, instructor of the latter-day IC?
Mike, look, Rafael has tried to correct you via rational logic, Mark Sanguinetti and others have tried to correct you via Biblical logic, and I've tried via PFAL logic to get you to see that you are ensnared in a web of subtle idolatry that is contrary to the Word of God, common sense, and even Wierwille's own teachings. It's a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, Mike.
It won't take 17 years of researching. Ever hear the phrase "looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight that isn't even there?" Dr. Wierwille said it himself--whenever we come to the Word with preconceived notions, to prove our point, we are already wrong. I would think that goes for his works especially.
Ultimately, who do you wish to serve? Dr. Wierwille, through his works, or God, through His Word? You do not have to "purge" yourself of everything VPW taught, that's impossible, as well as foolish. What you should do is put all the books and collaterals aside, get a fresh KJV with no TWI notes in it, and prove to yourself from the Word every single doctrine that you can recall. Remember, the Word of God has to fit from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21, it has to be the Word of God everywhere. We are still in the same administration as Paul was in, so anything that Dr. Wierwille said cannot contradict or supersede what the Epistles say--God would have to change administrations again to make such a reversal according to His Word, and that's not going to happen until Christ comes back.
Now, if you find that Dr. Wierwille was absolutely right on something, what does that tell you? That he interpreted it the way God meant it to be. If you find he was wrong on something (see Rafael's list of actual errors in PFAL for a start), you absolutely MUST follow God instead of Dr. Wierwille. We study to show ourselves approved to God, not men, after all.
At the end, you may just find that you have a greater appreciation for God's work, and see Dr. Wierwille's stuff as illustrative at best, not authoritative as you currently believe. You won't necessarily start going to Church, believing in the trinity, or praying to dead people. Or you might--several here have gone from VPW back to orthodoxy. Whichever way you go, make sure that it is the best possible decision based on what you can absolutely prove from the Bible.
That's all any of us can do, being imperfect before the Perfect One.
God bless,
Zixar
...And you earn people's respect by serving them the Word of God and loving them-- and then learning to keep your mouth shut. -- Victor Paul Wierwille, from his Last Teaching.
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Larry P2
Mike, no response to the responses to your "four issues?"
Don't you think it was utterly callous, meanspirited, vicious, and deliberately dishonest for Mr. Weirwille to chastise "Churchianity" for its inneffective "Sisters of the Poor Bleeding Heart" approach to the sick and poor, when he himself was quickly assuming room temperature from a disease he had loudly proclaimed was the result of Devil Spirit Possession?
How many people in TWI actually knew about his condition? How many times did he LIE about it when asked directly about his cancer? Given your public stance, don't mustn't you argue that when Weirwille lied about his cancer he was doing the right and godly thing? In Passage of the Old Poop, you see a lot of totally dishonest, unprocessed and impotent anger by the Old Grifter. I believe it was partially due to the fact that he had backed himself into a corner. There was absolutely no way to justify his public lies about cancer and he knew it.
Cancer isn't something you can mess around with. The truth hurts, but it also sets the cancer survivor free. This is all contrary to Mr. Weirwille's public personnae. His lies killed him. He couldn't even tell the truth about something as vital as his medical condition. So he lied. He dishonestly placed the guilt for his condition on his associates and their actions.
POP would have been the ideal time to retract a very public and vicious and unbiblical doctrine. Yet the Old Grifter lied to the end.
I guess by that time, he could no longer stop himself, even if it would have helped him.
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Oakspear
REVIEW
In Mike's early posts in this thread he stated that PFAL was God-breathed, that it was superior to the available versions of the bible because these versions were corrupted by men, but that PFAL was revelation, and thus not corrupted. He later included the collateral volumes as God-breathed as well, and by implication, he included what Wierwille said in certain public teaching venues.
I don't think anyone argued that everything out of Wierwille's mouth was wrong, but many put forth that his words must be compared to the bible, not the bible to his words. Numerous examples of verifiable errors in PFAL have been put forth, and at least one contradiction between statements in two different Wierwille volumes.
The conclusion of most of the participants in this thread was that Wierwille's words, due to the demonstrable errors, could therefore not be God-breathed; but must be examined statement by statement like anyone else's.
Even if we think that that all of VP taught was right, it still must be scrutizied for accuracy.
Now we have this statement by St. Michael:
Hmmm...maybe some aren't? Isn't that what we've been saying? And how do we determine this? For a minute there I thought he was back-pedaling, but he isn't really. Mike is going to tell us which of Wierwille's works were God-breathed, and which were not...based on what Wierwille said! Oh! I tremble with anticipation (yes, that was sarcasm for any who are keeping score)And let's not overlook this gem:
Who here thinks Wierwille was talking about his own writings when he made "It Is Written" the Way Corps motto?Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Abigail
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[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 2:56.]
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Mike
Excathedra wrote: “Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his worksâ€
Exy, you are 100% correct in citing and applying the last part of that verse. MAYBE his cancer was a part of that “reward†but that’s none of our business, so I don’t focus much on it.
Since you brought this subject to me for comment, I’ll do it. If you don’t want to see what I say about it, the PgDn key is close by. If you ARE going to read what I wrote, please be well rested (I learned this was important in the wee hours of Sunday this week), and think about it all for a few hours before you respond. I know this is a difficult subject for you, and it has been for a lot of people, including me.
I too am learning that I must get quiet to hear the True God’s still small voice in dealing with difficult matters. Emotion often feels like it will help energize my response with maximum horsepower, but I’ve learned the hard way it can also run me off the road and over the cliff. Emotion is great for physical interactions, like hard labor or fight/flight kinds of things, but lousy for recalling detailed Biblical advice and hearing God’s still small voice.
I think you may be mis-applying the first part of that verse. MY OPINION is that your business regarding this matter is to forgive, forget, and get totally healed. I KNOW FOR SURE that God wants all three for you. That’s what your Bible says in MANY places and in MANY ways. If you choose to ignore these Bible passages then how could you in good conscience criticize me for not being biblical enough? Maybe you don’t.
There are many things I have done in my life I’m not proud of, but let me assure you that a skinny science nerd like myself never got “lucky†enough to do the things you find most reprehensible. If I had had those “troops†I too may have invaded Poland once or twice. I saw ALL my college roommates and most of my friends try, and sometimes succeed, in doing terrible things to women (usually very young and dumb) that sometimes turned my stomach. But then there were also those times that I was green, not with disgust, but with envy.
You are either going to have to learn to forgive this innate weakness the adversary exploits in 99% of all men, or 99% of the men on this board are going to be thinking of ways to hide it from you. If any man denies this extremely strong pressure the adversary wields, I’d suspect he’ll also deny that he masturbates. Either a medical condition or a jaded conscience to lying can bring a man to claim he is in that 1% category that’s totally innocent.
Before you become an arch feminist over this statistic, I suggest you first research the innate weakness(s) the adversary exploits in 99% of all WOMEN. Now THERE’S a hot new thread someone can start.
Now, regarding forgiving, forgetting, and healing, maybe you have already done some or all of that, THAT’S none of MY business, unless you bring the issue to my door, which you have.
If you want any help in that area, many of the cooler biblical heads here are capable of at least showing you the verses. Maybe Research Geek.
Now, Exy, back to the second half of the verse you quoted. There are many things I have done in my life for which I am still paying the price, even though I’ve gotten back into fellowship with Father. The same thing happened to David, NOT for his sexual problem per se, but for murder. He had to suffer with the consequences of his sin for many years, even though he was back in fellowship and writing Psalms from God.
And who knows how many more sins of his went undocumented. It’s not easy for a normal person to knock up a best friend’s wife and then have her husband killed without a LOT of warming up and practice. It’s called becoming jaded. It takes lots of time and sin USUALLY to get as bad as David did. God only documented in His Word what we needed for our learning.
I suppose God covered for David on his warm-up sins, or we’d all be tearing Psalms out of our Bibles. Plus the Father would surely WANT to cover the sins of His adopted son, David. I feel the exact same about my father in the Word. During Dr’s lifetime, God did the same kind of covering, else the collaterals would have never been printed up and so widely distributed.
And Proverbs would have been LONG gone if we all were really consistent in purging our lives of all male-sin and the products of great male-sinners. How many of Solomon’s wives do you think he mistreated? AT LEAST a couple hundred is my guess from listening to the OT History tapes, and from my participating in the male gender.
Exy, the timing of “God’s†reward mentioned in your above verse is not only in the future at judgement. (I used quotes there to indicate the idiom of permission.) Jesus talked about how giving is rewarded BOTH in this life and the next. That works for negative giving too.
Don’t worry, God is not mocked by anyone, even VPW, and whatsoever a man sows that will he reap also. Vengeance is MINE says the Lord. God will even the score for you MUCH better than you can ever dream to even it by being bitter and besmirching the good that Dr also did do for you and us. God will reward him for that too.
God will also reward you for your valiant effort to forgive, forget, and accept total healing, whether you’ve completed it or still working on it. Like Paul wrote to Philemon, Jesus Christ says with all the authority of God Almighty to you, Exy, “Put it on my charge account, I’ll pay in total for all VPW’s sins to you, just as I paid for your sins against others.†How do I know that? Precedent. It is written.
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Zix, for myself, I’m simply not trying to master the AC. If you want more detail as to how to deal with it’s status, I suggest you get down to serious mastery of the collaterals. Then and only then will you get to “all nine all the time,†and then you can ask God for your answer.
If you think you can skip around the collaterals and ask, I think you’re asking for trouble. The devil can counterfeit God’s voice so well that only a master can tell them apart. The past 2000 years of failure at “all nine all the time†shows me it’s useless to try and “5-senses†my way in an end run around the devil’s defenses. He’s smarter than any 5-senses researcher. Look what he did to Bullinger regarding SIT. A mere 5-senses researcher NEEDS the extra boost of revelation to get through all the confusion that the arch intellectual devil has erected.
Do you see the catch-22 here? The 5-senses researcher is trying to learn the difference between God and His counterfeit, but in order to learn this he must be able to ALREADY tell the difference to obtain and hear the needed extra boost God’s voice will give him over the devil’s smarts.
The only way out of this 2000 year (at least) old vicious cycle is God has step in. That’s what the 1942 promise was and is. And that project of fixing His Word that God initiated was basically finished after 40 years of Him working with Dr. This is stated by Dr as his last words to Craig at Craig’s installation, and it’s on the same tape I quoted on the “News Flash!†thread about Craig’s non-spiritual installation.
Another thing the rare “spiritually boosted researcher†needs is the courage to face the fire of tradition and it’s many, many vehement adherents.
God has had to OFTEN wait a long time for JUST the right individual with these unique characteristics (super diligent in 5-senses work, super meek to God ONLY, and willing to take on the war with tradition with gusto) to come along for many of the job HE wanted done. Examples: Moses, John the Baptist, Mary. As far as the job of restoring God’s Word (like in Jer.36) it took 2000 years for God to find BOTH a tough ornery contrarian crowd like us to believe, and a tough ornery contrarian like Dr to teach us.
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Larry P – What you are referring to (Dr’s nasty talk on cancer) does not exist in the tape/print record that I am aware of. I think it’s mostly an exaggggggeration based on a few rare bad days Dr might have had off the record. I also highly suspect a major source of your impression can come from mixing in other sources of such nastiness. I’m thinking specifically of a botched re-iteration of Dr’s teaching by the evil Corps/clergy that I have OFTEN witnessed with my own eyes, both back in the good old days, the fog years, and even today in every splinter group.
Unless we really work hard at it, it’s unlikely most of us can separate out in our memories “who said what†looking back some 20 years or more.
Dr’s tape/print record and his casual remarks are all jumbled together in all of our heads along with much of what we heard from and saw in the declining leadership from Legion Leaders to twig leaders. The end product of all this mixing and combining ends up being what I call the “verbal tradition†we were subject to. That verbal tradition sucked real bad! It was pretty bad in the late Seventies, and it went down hill from there.
Dr fought this evil verbal tradition in The Way and his fight IS in the record, in many places and in many ways. We just didn’t pay attention. We can now, though, because it’s being found on a daily basis by a small handful of people like me who decide to return to that record with a heart to meekly master what Dr told us to master in his Last/Lost Teaching.
**********************************************************
Oakspear, you and others keep referring to comparing PFAL to the Bible, but you all keep ignoring the major problem that we don’t really HAVE the Bible, only what a very large team of scholars have given us.
I’ve repeated demonstrated in many posts, the simplest and most complete of which is “Feelings,†that this tradition provided “Bible†is only approximate. Why do you keep shoving this intractable problem under the rug? Is it because it’s difficult to deal with?
You cannot go into a single bookstore on this planet and buy THE Bible in English.
You can only buy...
.......................a version
.................................of a translation
..........................................of a modern critical compilation
..................................................of varying, ancient, fragmented mis-copies.
Tell me how you solve this problem so that you can do your error checking in comparing of PFAL to “the Bible.â€
You’re not really using the Bible but and approximation of the Bible, and God did better than a mere approximation like that in what He taught Dr and Dr taught us.
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Abigail
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[This message was edited by Abigail on January 09, 2003 at 2:58.]
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Mike
Abigail, how do you know David did not have undocumented relapses at times. Old habits are hard to break, so I'd need a lot of Biblical proof before I believed your shooting from the hip.
How do you know "99% of all men do not use their power/position or physical force to sexually abuse women." ???? What percentage have you mneasured? I got my estimate from being a man and hearing men talk when women are not around. I also know there's some basis to "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely." I also know there are exceptions to that, but in the adversary's kingdom they are few. The ONLY one I know who totally resisted this is our lord Jesus Christ.
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Abigail
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shazdancer
Mike,
You said,
Mike, you truly are a disciple of the Ol' Vic, in every way. Thank you for making that abundantly clear. You just keep on researching, dude, it will keep you away from the rest of us. "Ever learning, and never able to the knowledge of the truth."
shaz
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Cynic
Mike,
If you find and work things right with some under-employed academicians in a university psychology department, you might be able to turn your paleo-groupie-of-a-dead-megalomaniacal-heretic condition into a extended-study cash cow.
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Mike
I never said that all abusers are of equal degree. The potential is in all of us men.
The same is the sad fact with women. They often abuse THEIR chemical power over men. It's just not in style to reveal this and it IS in style to hide it.
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Raf
Shall I?
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oldiesman
Um, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I never heard VPW say that.
I heard VPW say "all life is spirit, and cancer is life by itself" or something to that effect.
Where did this idea surface that everyone who gets cancer has to be possessed? Not from VPW. If so, chapter and verse please...
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Steve!
Raf - need you ask?
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Raf
This is really long, but it mostly addresses specific things Mike wrote.
I was under the impression from your earlier posts that Wierwille had finished his work and was ready to die. Yet now you make it clear that there was a major portion of his work that was left undone. So, which is it?
Actually, not much of the Intermediate class exists in written form, at least not written by Victor Paul Wierwille.
Most of which was written by other people, no?
Are you now saying the Intermediate Class was God-breathed? I’m lost. They ditched Wierwille’s Intermediate Class for Earl Burton’s. Why would Wierwille permit the God-breathed Word to be replaced with a cheap carbon copy?Somehow, that does not surprise me.
You’re on the right track. Now, take it to the next step…
Holy cow.
As others have eloquently noted, Wierwille was thinking of THE BIBLE, not his own writings, when he quoted “It Is Written†and made it the motto of his Way Corps. There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to suggest that he was thinking of his own writings.
Proof positive that he did not consider it “God-breathed,†as he felt comfortable adding words, subtracting words and changing words.
Well, DUHHHH! What’s he supposed to do, jump in a time machine and re-teach the Rock of Ages until he gets it right?
It was the result of much thought and discussion. It was not a result of God breathing. It was a result of MAN’s thought and MAN’s discussion. God doesn’t give revelation by committee.
Picky: meaning, of course, you are only meek to learn from the written works of Victor Paul Wierwille. And not even that: for Wierwille’s written words reject your thesis, and your dismissive attitude toward the Bible.
Really? It took him far less time to “earn†his doctorate.
I see you’re beginning to understand our reaction to you.
Do you respect Wierwille as MORE than that?
I believe your father in the Word was an error-prone, sexual predator who abused his position in the church in order to seduce women. I also think he was a plagiarist who dishonestly took credit for what others wrote. Will you leave me alone now?
Earlier, you wrote that God told the same thing to Wierwille that he told men before him. I would be inclined to accept that if not for the uncontested evidence that Wierwille read and had access to the men’s works BEFORE he wrote his own. Wierwille learned to speak in tongues from Stiles, then suddenly, his book quotes Stiles as though the words are Wierwille’s. That’s plagiarism. Your explanation for it is pure head-in-the-sand denial. Be my guest, but my respect for you rapidly plummets depending on your refusal to see the simple truth in front of you.
For once, we agree. Had you mastered what Dr. told you to master, you would be rejecting your theory, just as Wierwille did.
I’ve got a list.
AGAIN with the false dichotomy! Mike, it’s not ALL OR NOTHING. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good. That’s the Biblical mandate.
Good, my job is safe.
I think it was Abigail who nailed you on this one. Your master should be God, in Christ. Not Wierwille. You have chosen the works of a flawed man as your master. That’s idolatry.
We’ve noticed. I will, henceforth, treat YOUR assessment of God’s Word with the same lack of respect with which you treat mine. Thanks kindly for your declaration.
Most of us are taking this approach with EVERYTHING Wierwille said and taught. We’re supposed to be impressed because you’re not bowing before the Advanced Class? Yeah, right, whatever.
Must… not… think… evil… of… Dr….
Mike, your foolishness in this statement has already been addressed, so I’m not going to repeat it.
WOAH! The apostles NEVER claimed that they could stay alive by their believing, or that they would die only when they stopped believing. No one’s knocking Wierwille for getting cancer. What we’re saying is that he should have come clean and said he was WRONG to say cancer was a devil spirit, and apologize to the people he hurt by implying they were outside of the will of God because of their cancer. It was his HYPOCRISY we are criticizing, not his illness. (I’ll note that, along with Oldies, I never heard Wierwille say this. I’m only reacting to your comparison of Wierwille with the apostles).
And in Mike’s more recent post…
Where does God say to forget? Let me tell you something: if you sexually abuse me or someone close to me, I may forgive you, but I don’t think the Bible commands me to forget it. And as long as some Wierwille-worshipping idolater continues to laud him as God’s prophet, and his works as God-breathed, we need people who are willing to stand up and say THE MAN WAS A SEXUAL PREDATOR who ABUSED his position in the Body of Christ to HURT God’s people. How DARE you tell people to forget that? Look, it’s as much a part of his legacy as PFAL. It’s a reminder to us not to worship a man, but you are doing that anyway. What GALL!
Show me where the Bible says to FORGET?
Have you SEEN Wierwille? It wasn’t his looks. It was his abuse of his position of power. My goodness, after 27 years, you can’t see this?
If you really feel that way, if you honestly think that of yourself, then do me a favor and lose my phone number. I will never pick up, and will never return your call.
They had NOTHING on Wierwille.
No one is claiming or requiring innocence. But I expect, no, I DEMAND that my pastors do not abuse their positions to seduce the flock, that they do not practice and excuse rampant adultery. My GOD, Mike, have you abandoned all reason?
Psst. Come here. BULLSH!T. You think David’s sexual sin was not the real issue? Explain Nathan’s story. Nathan does not even MENTION the murder of Uriah! He mentions how someone took another man’s sheep. Nothing in Nathan’s story about killing anything or anyone. Nathan’s story was SPECIFICALLY about David’s adultery, and you come along, what 3,000 years later, and say David was reproved for murder, not for adultery? Fool!
So the fact that the collaterals are published and distributed are proof that God’s hand was on it? Dude, the Satanic Bible has sold more copies than PFAL. That proves NOTHING. And what “widely distributed.†Less than 100,000 people have a complete set. On earth!
Mike, you NUT, the Proverbs were written BEFORE that!
Meek Master Mike is back.
A lie is what the 1942 promise was and is.
Wierwille said it. That settles it. You believe it.
Again with the straw man. They don’t agree with you: they must be in favor of tradition. I reject your FALSE, LYING accusation.
That’s rich. Ever hear of Charles Taze Russell? Tough, ornery contrarian, rejected the Trinity and rejected immediate life after death, founded a Christian sect people have actually HEARD of. Your Wierwille is a pathetic WANNABE compared to Charles Taze Russell.
Until now I have accused you of worshipping Wierwille’s writings alone. I now assert that you worship Wierwille as well: not as perfect, but as above and beyond any other Christian. Your idolatry exceeds anything I thought it was.
YOU HYPOCRITE! Wierwille did not treat the Bible with such disrespect as you have! Wierwille said, repeatedly, that the Bible CAN be trusted. His whole claim to understanding the Word came from (supposedly) taking thousands of books to the city dump and going straight to the Bible. YOU reject the Book Wierwille praised. You HYPOCRITE! If Wierwille heard you, his fingers would BLEED from slapping you so repeatedly.
You’ve finally cracked.
What was Wierwille’s saying: Chapter and Verse, please? That was HIS saying. HE expected us to take whatever was taught and compare it to THE BIBLE, not his own books. That you can study his works for three decades and come away with such a profound disrespect for God’s Word strikes me as the ultimate paradox. You disgrace the man you worship.
Listen, Meek Master Mike, if Wierwille held the Bible with the same disregard as you, do tell, why did he spend so much time teaching us how to read it?
Given a choice between never having PFAL again, and never having the Bible again, I’d lose PFAL in a heartbeat. Wanna know something scary? So would Wierwille.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on January 06, 2003 at 12:21.]
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