Ditto. He was unlikely to be deposed because he had run off any other potential Alpha males from the herd. Any remaining resistance would probably be met with a brutal response. If that fails, get a "new revelation" (new class, change/eliminate programs, etc.) and change the game. Keeps everyone off balance and lets you pull the strings. Old trick, new shtick.
Machiavelli by a man who probably couldn't spell it. Ah, the irony. :-)
EVERYTHING was ok in TWI as long as you were the MOGFOT or the leadeship that agreed with his warped or, could I even go as far as to say, Mostly non-existent sense of decency and morality.
CLear down to the TWIG Level
Rosalie is President on PAper
Donna is still at headquarters
Rosalie may know where the skeletons are buried
But I bet that LCM's stack of 3x5 cards is truly astounding.
Paper is paper it doesn't care what is written on it
Reality--that's another story all together --LCM is still the puppeteer-the strings may be fewer they may be less thick but a string is a string and it only takes one gentle tug to send things careening in a given way-
I personally think LCM is still sucking at TWI's financial tittie and pulling the strings. That stack of 3x5 cards he has on everyone is probably of biblical proportions.
His "removal" IMHO as president was only because of the lawsuits, and the leadership was more than happy to maintain the status quoe of rampant adultery and let LCM sexually assault anyone he desired.
No one has ever ever publically taught against adultery at TWI, and this makes one wonder how truthful Rosie's testimony was in the Peeler evidentiary hearing.....
Since LCM had pimps in the WC setting up girls for him whenever he came to their area, I'd say you're right on, pjroberge.
He'd still be president and still be the ranting raving controlling spittle spurting MOGFART that people worship and emulate if the lawsuits hadn't come out into the public.
I've even heard WC say that it took the lawsuits for them to be able to remove him from power. What the HE!! kind of "standing in the gap" is that??? I wish I had gone off on the man when he said it, but I was too chicken sh!t myself.
If Mr. Allen had not had the brass balls to confront Loy Craig Martindale, he would still be enjoying the benefits of the presidency of The Way International.
Many people at HQ and elsewhere knew what was going on and weren't about to rock the boat, because they were being kept silenced with benefits of their own.
The most guilty person of all in not speaking up is Rosalie the Fox Rivenbark. Her silence in the face of adultery and alleged sexual abuse makes her complicit in the crime.
The fact that TWI keeps her on as president of The Way International is proof in an of itself of the corruption of the organization.
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil.
They are ALL evil, every last one of them. There is no salvaging of such an institution that is worm-eaten and chronically infested with such corruption.
The institution needs to be scrapped.
Harvey and the entire BOD that KNOW of Rosie's complicity are convicted of corruption in that they allow her to remain unchallenged.
But for the Allens, Martindale would still be ensconced in the presidency.
[This message was edited by Catcup on March 21, 2004 at 16:31.]
On that I heartily concur. Institutions are nothing but prisons. The true God never wanted an institution anyway - all He wanted was a family to love Him, and for Him to love in return.
Is anyone aware of any mechanism in the Way's charter that provides conditions under which their president may be removed?
If not, how could the position be considered anything but "for life"? I never heard of term limits for that office or the other positions on the Board of Trustees (now Directors). Of course, me having been a bird splat on the Way Tree, I wouldn't have been privy to that sort of information.
IMHO, the only reason Mr. Martindale is no longer president of the Way International is not because he was perceived by the Way hierarchy as having done anything wrong, but because he became a financial liability and a reason for possible criminal investigation by "the world",
And as long as you have a small, insular group which totally controls all aspects of an organization with no independent oversight of that group, that's the way it will remain.
quote:Is anyone aware of any mechanism in the Way's charter that provides conditions under which their president may be removed?
If we assume that the 3 BOT's are the *only*
members if the corporation then it would seem that any two members could oust the other by majority vote.
However, if the voting membership consists of a "Cabinet", then the Cabinet by a "quorem" would be able to remove a President or any other board member and appoint or elect a replacement.
I find it doubtful that the three BOT's have sole control or TWI.
We would just have to see TWI's Charter and By Laws to know the process for sure.
There's no doubt that LCM would still be the HMFIC if not for the Allen Law Suit. But pretend for a moment that he was never forced to resign. Pretend he had remained free to continued his "scorched earth" policies. How long do you think it would have been before there was barely a soul left to terrorize? Even before the news of the Allen suit broke, there had been a steady stream of folks who were either M & A, or who (like me) fled for their very lives and sanity. He was like a runaway train---an impending train wreck. I believe it still would have been only a matter of time before, under his continued "leadership" they would have been left with even fewer followers then they have today. In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything (and it still amazes me that people actually buy into that fat lie). But by backing off somewhat, by cloaking themselves in the "kinder, gentler Way" image, they managed to stanch the membership hemmorhage.
I do very much wonder about the extent to which LCM continues to wield power and influence at The Way. I definitely believe that he still has his hand in the til. There are probably conditions to his staying quietly in the background---one of which may be that his family be allowed to remain ensconced in the palace, and that The Way still uses his class, and sells his books (and pays any required royalities, of course). I doubt that he has much day to day policy or decision making power left. I somehow suspect that The Fox has got him exactly where she wants him---out of the way and gnawing on the bones she tosses from him time to time.
quote: I doubt that he has much day to day policy or decision making power left. I somehow suspect that The Fox has got him exactly where she wants him---out of the way and gnawing on the bones she tosses from him time to time
MMM-kind of like having a tiger by the tail--your "in Control" as long as you don't relax your grip--the tiger meanwhile is resting up for the POunce when you do--no wonder Rosalie has such a shiny forehead --worry, I'm told, Will do that too you.
Since Donna hasn't filed for divorce yet--How much of a conduit do you think she is to LCM--I mean is she there for love of ROsie or to keep on eye on the Fox for the TIger????
I've been pondering this question since it was first posted.
I'm not so sure he's still be riding high. A few times, when I was listening to ranting on the tapes, I thought he was going to have a stroke or heart attack with the fury of his words. It seems to me that I often thought he was only a hairs-breadth away from losing control. If he ever did - I think it would have been like the implosion of a certain democratic candidate......
If that ever happened, I'm not so sure the rest of them could have allowed him to continue. They would have had a cover story of some kind....but they would have had no choice but to replace him.
Catcup said it all - if not for the Allens he'd still be screaming and spitting and cursing from the pulpit.
But... CC also had some very good insight. It was getting pretty bad by the time Waydale appeared. I know I had been totally discontented for at least 5 years, and I know plenty of others who were headed down the same path.
Craig's "owe no man anything" teaching - which included mortgages - was the doctrine that seemed to be hurting TWI the most. And the M&A policies between family members was considered pretty awful by many innies as well.
"In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything."
Wwhat a great observation - I think you're absolutely right!
If not for Lawsuit #1 he'd still be the prez, but I think it would be a much smaller ministry than the one he got kicked out of 4 years ago.
I am new here, well new to posting, I am a total lurker. Not for any other reason than I have never have anything to say. EXCEPT when I read this topic I had to register. I completely think he would still be President to this day if not for the lawsuit. I am trying to remember the tape we listened to when we had our emergency meeting. Didn't someone on that tape say that he is stepping down because of the something or another it is causing in the household?
Wow I guess I still don't have much to say 'cause I can't remember what was said, but no lawsuit = no turmoil in the household = no stepping down.
Welcome, PassTheTrash! Let me buy you a cuppa java.
You're right that as long as they were able to keep things quiet and hidden there was not going to be any action taken.
Mind you (you rhetorical) that many, many people in twi - especially the wc - still consider lcm the mogfart. They still think that what he taught was right on correct and they still think that gawd was talking to him and working in him mightily. They still think that he was and would be a great president and leader of gawd's people if he hadn't had this one major weakness. They still talk about him with glassy eyes and compare him to Solomon and David and Saul.
Sickening, I know, but it's why so many people will never leave twi and will drink the kool-aid when it comes around.
More than anything, Martindale loved to be "da man"...he craved the adoration and obedience of his followers...he loved to stand in the pulpit and pontificate and scream and have everyone pay heed to his words. He loved the lofty position of president and being in the spotlight to feed his enormous ego...
Even if he still pulls the strings...all of THAT is gone.
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding from WC in Va. was that lcm leaving was a suggestion made to RR by the attorneys. 1. To squash the negative publicity that the mess was generating in the press; 2. The fact that TWI was hemorrhaging cash like a flood due to the legal mess that he had landed them in. Maybe, someone thought that if the cause was eliminated then the problem would heal it self.
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Tom Strange
I think that you're correct in your assumptions on all counts...
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JustThinking
Ditto. He was unlikely to be deposed because he had run off any other potential Alpha males from the herd. Any remaining resistance would probably be met with a brutal response. If that fails, get a "new revelation" (new class, change/eliminate programs, etc.) and change the game. Keeps everyone off balance and lets you pull the strings. Old trick, new shtick.
Machiavelli by a man who probably couldn't spell it. Ah, the irony. :-)
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templelady
PAt-
EVERYTHING was ok in TWI as long as you were the MOGFOT or the leadeship that agreed with his warped or, could I even go as far as to say, Mostly non-existent sense of decency and morality.
CLear down to the TWIG Level
Rosalie is President on PAper
Donna is still at headquarters
Rosalie may know where the skeletons are buried
But I bet that LCM's stack of 3x5 cards is truly astounding.
Paper is paper it doesn't care what is written on it
Reality--that's another story all together --LCM is still the puppeteer-the strings may be fewer they may be less thick but a string is a string and it only takes one gentle tug to send things careening in a given way-
LCM is still the little man behind the curtain
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pjroberge
Mo,
I personally think LCM is still sucking at TWI's financial tittie and pulling the strings. That stack of 3x5 cards he has on everyone is probably of biblical proportions.
His "removal" IMHO as president was only because of the lawsuits, and the leadership was more than happy to maintain the status quoe of rampant adultery and let LCM sexually assault anyone he desired.
No one has ever ever publically taught against adultery at TWI, and this makes one wonder how truthful Rosie's testimony was in the Peeler evidentiary hearing.....
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WaywardWayfer
Since LCM had pimps in the WC setting up girls for him whenever he came to their area, I'd say you're right on, pjroberge.
He'd still be president and still be the ranting raving controlling spittle spurting MOGFART that people worship and emulate if the lawsuits hadn't come out into the public.
I've even heard WC say that it took the lawsuits for them to be able to remove him from power. What the HE!! kind of "standing in the gap" is that??? I wish I had gone off on the man when he said it, but I was too chicken sh!t myself.
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papajohn
I'd be surprised if loyboy WASEN'T STILL calling the shots as to how things are run and rosie is his 'mouthpiece'.
she protected him then and I'm sure still does.
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Catcup
If Mr. Allen had not had the brass balls to confront Loy Craig Martindale, he would still be enjoying the benefits of the presidency of The Way International.
Many people at HQ and elsewhere knew what was going on and weren't about to rock the boat, because they were being kept silenced with benefits of their own.
The most guilty person of all in not speaking up is Rosalie the Fox Rivenbark. Her silence in the face of adultery and alleged sexual abuse makes her complicit in the crime.
The fact that TWI keeps her on as president of The Way International is proof in an of itself of the corruption of the organization.
The Word says that if a ruler hearkens to lies, all his advisors are evil.
They are ALL evil, every last one of them. There is no salvaging of such an institution that is worm-eaten and chronically infested with such corruption.
The institution needs to be scrapped.
Harvey and the entire BOD that KNOW of Rosie's complicity are convicted of corruption in that they allow her to remain unchallenged.
But for the Allens, Martindale would still be ensconced in the presidency.
[This message was edited by Catcup on March 21, 2004 at 16:31.]
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Goey
LCM *could* still be President if not for the lawsuits.
However he *could* have been shot by an angry husband also.
It seems to me tht LCM was on a path to self-destruction. Being removed as President of TWI may have saved his sorry life.
Just thinking "out loud" .
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What The Hay
On that I heartily concur. Institutions are nothing but prisons. The true God never wanted an institution anyway - all He wanted was a family to love Him, and for Him to love in return.
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Kevlar2000
Just a thought...
Is anyone aware of any mechanism in the Way's charter that provides conditions under which their president may be removed?
If not, how could the position be considered anything but "for life"? I never heard of term limits for that office or the other positions on the Board of Trustees (now Directors). Of course, me having been a bird splat on the Way Tree, I wouldn't have been privy to that sort of information.
IMHO, the only reason Mr. Martindale is no longer president of the Way International is not because he was perceived by the Way hierarchy as having done anything wrong, but because he became a financial liability and a reason for possible criminal investigation by "the world",
And as long as you have a small, insular group which totally controls all aspects of an organization with no independent oversight of that group, that's the way it will remain.
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Goey
If we assume that the 3 BOT's are the *only*
members if the corporation then it would seem that any two members could oust the other by majority vote.
However, if the voting membership consists of a "Cabinet", then the Cabinet by a "quorem" would be able to remove a President or any other board member and appoint or elect a replacement.
I find it doubtful that the three BOT's have sole control or TWI.
We would just have to see TWI's Charter and By Laws to know the process for sure.
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Cherished Child
There's no doubt that LCM would still be the HMFIC if not for the Allen Law Suit. But pretend for a moment that he was never forced to resign. Pretend he had remained free to continued his "scorched earth" policies. How long do you think it would have been before there was barely a soul left to terrorize? Even before the news of the Allen suit broke, there had been a steady stream of folks who were either M & A, or who (like me) fled for their very lives and sanity. He was like a runaway train---an impending train wreck. I believe it still would have been only a matter of time before, under his continued "leadership" they would have been left with even fewer followers then they have today. In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything (and it still amazes me that people actually buy into that fat lie). But by backing off somewhat, by cloaking themselves in the "kinder, gentler Way" image, they managed to stanch the membership hemmorhage.
I do very much wonder about the extent to which LCM continues to wield power and influence at The Way. I definitely believe that he still has his hand in the til. There are probably conditions to his staying quietly in the background---one of which may be that his family be allowed to remain ensconced in the palace, and that The Way still uses his class, and sells his books (and pays any required royalities, of course). I doubt that he has much day to day policy or decision making power left. I somehow suspect that The Fox has got him exactly where she wants him---out of the way and gnawing on the bones she tosses from him time to time.
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templelady
MMM-kind of like having a tiger by the tail--your "in Control" as long as you don't relax your grip--the tiger meanwhile is resting up for the POunce when you do--no wonder Rosalie has such a shiny forehead --worry, I'm told, Will do that too you.
Since Donna hasn't filed for divorce yet--How much of a conduit do you think she is to LCM--I mean is she there for love of ROsie or to keep on eye on the Fox for the TIger????
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krys
I've been pondering this question since it was first posted.
I'm not so sure he's still be riding high. A few times, when I was listening to ranting on the tapes, I thought he was going to have a stroke or heart attack with the fury of his words. It seems to me that I often thought he was only a hairs-breadth away from losing control. If he ever did - I think it would have been like the implosion of a certain democratic candidate......
If that ever happened, I'm not so sure the rest of them could have allowed him to continue. They would have had a cover story of some kind....but they would have had no choice but to replace him.
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LuckyGirl
I think it was the internet & WayDale that was his demise. There were other lawsuits that none of us heard about until the net.
And yes, he'd still be there (and me too unfortuantely) if it weren't fot the internet& the lawsuit.
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excathedra
forgive me for not reading all this
of course he would stil be pres. without the lawsuits. just like veepee was
no exposure, no crime, sin whatever
i'm interested in how rosie and craig and donna worked it all out
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Hope R.
Catcup said it all - if not for the Allens he'd still be screaming and spitting and cursing from the pulpit.
But... CC also had some very good insight. It was getting pretty bad by the time Waydale appeared. I know I had been totally discontented for at least 5 years, and I know plenty of others who were headed down the same path.
Craig's "owe no man anything" teaching - which included mortgages - was the doctrine that seemed to be hurting TWI the most. And the M&A policies between family members was considered pretty awful by many innies as well.
"In a way, his ouster saved TWI from certain demise because they've managed to make Martindale the scapegoat for everything."
Wwhat a great observation - I think you're absolutely right!
If not for Lawsuit #1 he'd still be the prez, but I think it would be a much smaller ministry than the one he got kicked out of 4 years ago.
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excathedra
your take on things, hope,is way more real (geez louise can't seem to get away from that word "way"
;)--> than mine
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passthetrash
I am new here, well new to posting, I am a total lurker. Not for any other reason than I have never have anything to say. EXCEPT when I read this topic I had to register. I completely think he would still be President to this day if not for the lawsuit. I am trying to remember the tape we listened to when we had our emergency meeting. Didn't someone on that tape say that he is stepping down because of the something or another it is causing in the household?
Wow I guess I still don't have much to say 'cause I can't remember what was said, but no lawsuit = no turmoil in the household = no stepping down.
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insurgent
Welcome, PassTheTrash! Let me buy you a cuppa java.
You're right that as long as they were able to keep things quiet and hidden there was not going to be any action taken.
Mind you (you rhetorical) that many, many people in twi - especially the wc - still consider lcm the mogfart. They still think that what he taught was right on correct and they still think that gawd was talking to him and working in him mightily. They still think that he was and would be a great president and leader of gawd's people if he hadn't had this one major weakness. They still talk about him with glassy eyes and compare him to Solomon and David and Saul.
Sickening, I know, but it's why so many people will never leave twi and will drink the kool-aid when it comes around.
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WordWolf
Someone told me that one story going around is that craig was innocent-
despite his admissions in direct testimony of wrongdoing in court.
I imagine they're saying craig's innocent, and so's Rosa-lie....
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waysider
If people actually believe he "took the bullet" for the ministry that would put him in the catagory of " martyr". Scares me and I'm fearless.
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GrouchoMarxJr
More than anything, Martindale loved to be "da man"...he craved the adoration and obedience of his followers...he loved to stand in the pulpit and pontificate and scream and have everyone pay heed to his words. He loved the lofty position of president and being in the spotlight to feed his enormous ego...
Even if he still pulls the strings...all of THAT is gone.
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railroader II
Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding from WC in Va. was that lcm leaving was a suggestion made to RR by the attorneys. 1. To squash the negative publicity that the mess was generating in the press; 2. The fact that TWI was hemorrhaging cash like a flood due to the legal mess that he had landed them in. Maybe, someone thought that if the cause was eliminated then the problem would heal it self.
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