quote: He started teaching that the OT believers had six manifestations to work with, not seven like Wierwille had taught, saying that OT prophecy was different than the NT manifestation of prophecy.
What a crock! --> I am assuming no chapter and verse was offered to back this up, eh? (I never took the WayAP class, so I don't know). As usual, his teachings sound like they eminated from the south end of a north bound horse.
And the only leaders I heard admit to being wrong, confessed to such AFTER they were out of twi, but not while they were still in.
when the Holy Spirit works through and into the heart and life of a person (commonly called leading him/her to repentence), sincere remorse is there as well.
I have and continue to apologize for my arrogance and stupidity of twi logic and other callous mistreatment of people.
Also I've had people privately apologize to me. Only after leaving twi, however.
It appears that the arrogance and hardheartedness is part of the twi territory, and getting out of that place essential for any true change of heart (Ezekiel 36:26).
Well, Oak, there was one time when the BOD owned up that their president had made a boo-boo...
That was when they threw Craiggers out on his tushy. They told everyone he had to step down because he had committed adultery. They sort of FORGOT to say there was more than one woman, they sort of FORGOT to say there was intimidation involved, and they sort of FORGOT to apologize!
Rosalie also "forgot" to say that she had known about the abuse for a long time... but the judge made sure to get that information into the record.
When I worked for an eating disorder residential treatment center... I was sitting at a table asking about folks spiritual background. One girl said she was involved in a cult. She said her eating disorder started when her parents divorced over beliefs. She hated when her father would have her for the weekend and all he would do is go to fellowship and attend classes. That was the only time spent with her. I asked her what organization and she said TWI.
My mouth dropped to the ground and I told her that I had fellowshiped with the same group also. She went on to saying how TWI took her father away from her and how angry she still was.
I told her that my involvment was at the level of a leader and immediatly she started crying. She wept deeply.
I went to where she was sitting and picked her up and held her. The pain of losing her father to TWI was immense. Sofly in her ear I whispered,"I'm sorry this happened to you and as a leader do you accept my apology?" She just kept on crying. This went on for about 5 minutes, I kept saying I'm sorry and she would not let go. Finally she said I forgive you and let go.
To this day I have a sence of sadness and yet joy about that whole moment. Sadness that someone like her, as a child was traumatized needlessly. Joy because she was able to move on spiritually.
Besides that it was cathartic for me to. The shame I carried for misleading people was addressed and delt with in a moments time.
In this area: Yes, off the record of course but when a question was asked, it was answered. I recall the RC once admitting to a mistake (not even a drastic one - an error more of action than heart) at a Limb function, in fact. I think most "leaders" are well-meaning - problem is, they did and do believe the filth coming from HQ.
When the local RC knew he'd made a mistake he would admit it to whoever was affected as soon as he could. Kinda hard to admit you've done wrong when you don't know it though, and I can't hold that against an innie any more than I can blame myself for the stupid decisions I made when I believed it. I just hope they'll wake up soon and make their lives of some honest value.
Oh, at the Root level, you mean? HAHAHAHAHAHA *choke* *sputter* *koff* ...sorry, just sprayed soda all over eveything. I think I got some on you - here's a napkin...
Yes, albeit, very sarcastically. I heard a wc person say "Well, IF I ever hurt anyone, I'm sorry."
They just started teaching that agapao was "the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation" thereby leaving off the "in the household" part and changing the definition yet again without admitting they were teaching it wrong all these years.
They have also changed the method of "confrontation" to "how you say things is just as important as what you say". That's a slap in the face of the old lcm oft-repeated phrase of "I yell because I love you." "I'll melt your face" and "You should respond to reproof no matter how it comes at you"
I remember listening to a SNS tape (1997 or so) in which LCM mentioned that after a Corps night teaching, someone in the Corps called him to point out an error. LCM then admitted that he made an error! As I recall, it was something rather trivial. What bothered me most was that only ONE Corps person mentioned it to him. I guess all the others were a.) spiritually asleep; b.) afraid of LCM; c.) trying to make the new "revelation" fit; or d.) all of the above.
I NEVER received any apologies from twi leadership when they were wrong. I also learned from their behavior. Cover your ***, never admit mistakes, and live like a righteous arsehole because you are in God's ministry and live in His household.
What a crock of BS!!!!!
I learned this about myself after leaving. Funny thing is: my innie boyfriend at the time told me I never apologized for things I needed to. I instantly changed. I was shocked at how hard and calloused I had become. It was completely unknown to me.
Now that I am married (not to the innie ex-boyfriend), I apologize even if I snip just a little at my husband.
We can't forget the famous words of RFR when she wronged a fellow GS poster while on staff. Something to this effect: "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt."
Don Wierwille once got very angry at me for something we disagreed on. Later when it became obvious I was right he sort of appologized. By that I mean, he excused his anger as being "spiritual anger".
It didn't occur to me later that if it really had been spiritual (ie from god) then it wouldn't have been wrongly applied. That's how brainwashed I was.
Leaders admit they were wrong? While they were still leaders? Not to my knowlege. Now, once they left twitland, yeah, no problem (the ones who approached me were sincere, can't speak for anyone else...).
And this "spiritual anger" (very prevalent in twit leaders#!t)...was that a all-purpose whitewash for the dumba$$ rants they used to go on?
Miracle RFR didn't tac on ... "You allowed your feelings to get hurt."
HOLY SHI*.. these arseholes would stop at nothing!
Pretty much to admit to a mistake was admitting that you were weak in TWI. Therefore, at all costs you NEVER let anyone know you had made an error...especially if were leadership!
I have spoke to the current leaders in this area Oak .
She and her husband profusely apologize for all the error of the past leadership and can go on and on about how mistakes where made and people got hurt and the wrongs that where done. too many still in know the actual truth of my scandal and so they really can not deny I was screeeewed by twi in a cover -up... yet it is always in a tone of
them
they go on about how the house must be kept clean and the problems are now gone.
in the past there was problems you see but they were dealt with and they no longer belong in the household...it is clean and kept clean now ya see. ya right
ha .
so now they are perfect , even if mistakes where made you know with those "other people" that where in the same dam cult and no longer are.
haha
all the mistakes where made by folks no longer involved you see..
It's a better apology than what I ever received (which by the way was absolutely zip, nada, notin', zero, the big oh, rien!)
I believe the type of apology you received is a start. The denial people live in even after TWI takes years to deal with. Give this person some time and if they are sincere, ( :o--> TWI taboo word) they will come around.
I was thinking about this at fellowship last week. I do think I've heard my bc say that people were hurt and things were done wrong in some ways. They never mentioned people or situations and never, but never intimated that they had done anything wrong. It was other leadership who had done things wrong.
Although twi taught never admit error as it shows weakness, something a leader is not to have, I have heard Craig admit error.
Related somewhat are excerpts from an upcoming CBS 60 Minutes special on Clinton:
"I did something for the worst possible reason: just because I could," Clinton says. "I think that's just about the most morally indefensible reason anybody could have for doing anything."
But then he had to also throw in this:
Clinton calls the impeachment process "an abuse of power."
Not that I liked the man, just thought interesting in light of how Craig use to flame him when engaged in similar activities at the same moment in time.
the only ministers that would have considered being wrong were long ago sent down the road for considering anything but "the word of the lord martindale".
if they wake up (ever) the present board and president and all will step down and call in those fired and sent packing for resisting the self serving, off the word, Godless edicts of "the church".
The Channel will never admit to being wrong. I have never seen it occur.
Usually the channel will blame the followers for everything that goes wrong.
A)The followers misunderstood what was said and expected more than was promised.
B)The followers are too sinful to recieve the promise and need to be purged of sin.
These are the usual excuses.
Another common excuse is that practises of Pure Worship need to be reinitiated, and apparent persecutions and hardship were a "Wakeup call" to the church to prepare it for the re revelations of the practise lost since apostolic times.
That is a fairly common one.
Now the Channel will never accept responsibility for ant failure of any kind. If pressed, the organization will blame persons in position of power. Say the Jehovahs Witness organization may blame the writing department and purge the top men out of that department. But only if pressed.
Adventists are especially interesting in this regard, Adventists blame EVERYBODY involved in the early days of the organization for the failure of things. Everybody except Ellen G White that is.
I was thinking about this question today, but in a totally different context.
I was considering how it is virtually impossible for a company to admit that they've done something wrong. Between the lawyers and the insurance companies, the advice is always "never admit that you are wrong". Admission of wrongness seems to be an invitation to lawsuits.
Given that TWI is a long ways from being a Godly institution and a very short ways from being a corporate institution, it's easy to understand why there is no admission of wrongness.
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JustThinking
I NEVER in all my time in TWI heard anything official that said anything of the sort. Not even close.
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dmiller
What a crock!
--> I am assuming no chapter and verse was offered to back this up, eh? (I never took the WayAP class, so I don't know). As usual, his teachings sound like they eminated from the south end of a north bound horse.
And the only leaders I heard admit to being wrong, confessed to such AFTER they were out of twi, but not while they were still in.
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Kit Sober
when the Holy Spirit works through and into the heart and life of a person (commonly called leading him/her to repentence), sincere remorse is there as well.
I have and continue to apologize for my arrogance and stupidity of twi logic and other callous mistreatment of people.
Also I've had people privately apologize to me. Only after leaving twi, however.
It appears that the arrogance and hardheartedness is part of the twi territory, and getting out of that place essential for any true change of heart (Ezekiel 36:26).
Kit
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shazdancer
Well, Oak, there was one time when the BOD owned up that their president had made a boo-boo...
That was when they threw Craiggers out on his tushy. They told everyone he had to step down because he had committed adultery. They sort of FORGOT to say there was more than one woman, they sort of FORGOT to say there was intimidation involved, and they sort of FORGOT to apologize!
Rosalie also "forgot" to say that she had known about the abuse for a long time... but the judge made sure to get that information into the record.
Regards,
Shaz
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JustThinking
Shaz,
I had the impression it was an isolated incident from his little "concession speech." Did you?
JT
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imbus
This is a hard story to tell.
When I worked for an eating disorder residential treatment center... I was sitting at a table asking about folks spiritual background. One girl said she was involved in a cult. She said her eating disorder started when her parents divorced over beliefs. She hated when her father would have her for the weekend and all he would do is go to fellowship and attend classes. That was the only time spent with her. I asked her what organization and she said TWI.
My mouth dropped to the ground and I told her that I had fellowshiped with the same group also. She went on to saying how TWI took her father away from her and how angry she still was.
I told her that my involvment was at the level of a leader and immediatly she started crying. She wept deeply.
I went to where she was sitting and picked her up and held her. The pain of losing her father to TWI was immense. Sofly in her ear I whispered,"I'm sorry this happened to you and as a leader do you accept my apology?" She just kept on crying. This went on for about 5 minutes, I kept saying I'm sorry and she would not let go. Finally she said I forgive you and let go.
To this day I have a sence of sadness and yet joy about that whole moment. Sadness that someone like her, as a child was traumatized needlessly. Joy because she was able to move on spiritually.
Besides that it was cathartic for me to. The shame I carried for misleading people was addressed and delt with in a moments time.
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Jason P
In this area: Yes, off the record of course but when a question was asked, it was answered. I recall the RC once admitting to a mistake (not even a drastic one - an error more of action than heart) at a Limb function, in fact. I think most "leaders" are well-meaning - problem is, they did and do believe the filth coming from HQ.
When the local RC knew he'd made a mistake he would admit it to whoever was affected as soon as he could. Kinda hard to admit you've done wrong when you don't know it though, and I can't hold that against an innie any more than I can blame myself for the stupid decisions I made when I believed it. I just hope they'll wake up soon and make their lives of some honest value.
Oh, at the Root level, you mean? HAHAHAHAHAHA *choke* *sputter* *koff* ...sorry, just sprayed soda all over eveything. I think I got some on you - here's a napkin...
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insurgent
Yes, albeit, very sarcastically. I heard a wc person say "Well, IF I ever hurt anyone, I'm sorry."
They just started teaching that agapao was "the love of and for God in the renewed mind in manifestation" thereby leaving off the "in the household" part and changing the definition yet again without admitting they were teaching it wrong all these years.
They have also changed the method of "confrontation" to "how you say things is just as important as what you say". That's a slap in the face of the old lcm oft-repeated phrase of "I yell because I love you." "I'll melt your face" and "You should respond to reproof no matter how it comes at you"
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GeorgeStGeorge
I remember listening to a SNS tape (1997 or so) in which LCM mentioned that after a Corps night teaching, someone in the Corps called him to point out an error. LCM then admitted that he made an error! As I recall, it was something rather trivial. What bothered me most was that only ONE Corps person mentioned it to him. I guess all the others were a.) spiritually asleep; b.) afraid of LCM; c.) trying to make the new "revelation" fit; or d.) all of the above.
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Nottawayfer
I NEVER received any apologies from twi leadership when they were wrong. I also learned from their behavior. Cover your ***, never admit mistakes, and live like a righteous arsehole because you are in God's ministry and live in His household.
What a crock of BS!!!!!
I learned this about myself after leaving. Funny thing is: my innie boyfriend at the time told me I never apologized for things I needed to. I instantly changed. I was shocked at how hard and calloused I had become. It was completely unknown to me.
Now that I am married (not to the innie ex-boyfriend), I apologize even if I snip just a little at my husband.
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Nottawayfer
We can't forget the famous words of RFR when she wronged a fellow GS poster while on staff. Something to this effect: "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt."
Wow, now that's real sincere.....NOT!!!
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My3Cents
Don Wierwille once got very angry at me for something we disagreed on. Later when it became obvious I was right he sort of appologized. By that I mean, he excused his anger as being "spiritual anger".
It didn't occur to me later that if it really had been spiritual (ie from god) then it wouldn't have been wrongly applied. That's how brainwashed I was.
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def59
They said they were wrong once, but later then said that was a mistake.
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Weout1200
Leaders admit they were wrong? While they were still leaders? Not to my knowlege. Now, once they left twitland, yeah, no problem (the ones who approached me were sincere, can't speak for anyone else...).
And this "spiritual anger" (very prevalent in twit leaders#!t)...was that a all-purpose whitewash for the dumba$$ rants they used to go on?
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A la prochaine
Wayfer,
Miracle RFR didn't tac on ... "You allowed your feelings to get hurt."
HOLY SHI*.. these arseholes would stop at nothing!
Pretty much to admit to a mistake was admitting that you were weak in TWI. Therefore, at all costs you NEVER let anyone know you had made an error...especially if were leadership!
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Ham
The problem is, for them to admit that they were wrong, they would first have to admit that they were human.
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mj412
I have spoke to the current leaders in this area Oak .
She and her husband profusely apologize for all the error of the past leadership and can go on and on about how mistakes where made and people got hurt and the wrongs that where done. too many still in know the actual truth of my scandal and so they really can not deny I was screeeewed by twi in a cover -up... yet it is always in a tone of
them
they go on about how the house must be kept clean and the problems are now gone.
in the past there was problems you see but they were dealt with and they no longer belong in the household...it is clean and kept clean now ya see. ya right
ha .
so now they are perfect , even if mistakes where made you know with those "other people" that where in the same dam cult and no longer are.
haha
all the mistakes where made by folks no longer involved you see..
ha
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MountainTopCO
This is an appoligy I got from my leadership.
I'm sorry for all the harm that I did...I was doing what I was told or expected to do.
Is this really an appology or an act to releave some guilt?
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A la prochaine
Mountain Top,
It's a better apology than what I ever received (which by the way was absolutely zip, nada, notin', zero, the big oh, rien!)
I believe the type of apology you received is a start. The denial people live in even after TWI takes years to deal with. Give this person some time and if they are sincere, (
:o--> TWI taboo word) they will come around.
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insurgent
I was thinking about this at fellowship last week. I do think I've heard my bc say that people were hurt and things were done wrong in some ways. They never mentioned people or situations and never, but never intimated that they had done anything wrong. It was other leadership who had done things wrong.
Does that count?
-->
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houseisarockin
Although twi taught never admit error as it shows weakness, something a leader is not to have, I have heard Craig admit error.
Related somewhat are excerpts from an upcoming CBS 60 Minutes special on Clinton:
"I did something for the worst possible reason: just because I could," Clinton says. "I think that's just about the most morally indefensible reason anybody could have for doing anything."
But then he had to also throw in this:
Clinton calls the impeachment process "an abuse of power."
Not that I liked the man, just thought interesting in light of how Craig use to flame him when engaged in similar activities at the same moment in time.
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JeffMedic
the only ministers that would have considered being wrong were long ago sent down the road for considering anything but "the word of the lord martindale".
if they wake up (ever) the present board and president and all will step down and call in those fired and sent packing for resisting the self serving, off the word, Godless edicts of "the church".
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Refiner
The Channel will never admit to being wrong. I have never seen it occur.
Usually the channel will blame the followers for everything that goes wrong.
A)The followers misunderstood what was said and expected more than was promised.
B)The followers are too sinful to recieve the promise and need to be purged of sin.
These are the usual excuses.
Another common excuse is that practises of Pure Worship need to be reinitiated, and apparent persecutions and hardship were a "Wakeup call" to the church to prepare it for the re revelations of the practise lost since apostolic times.
That is a fairly common one.
Now the Channel will never accept responsibility for ant failure of any kind. If pressed, the organization will blame persons in position of power. Say the Jehovahs Witness organization may blame the writing department and purge the top men out of that department. But only if pressed.
Adventists are especially interesting in this regard, Adventists blame EVERYBODY involved in the early days of the organization for the failure of things. Everybody except Ellen G White that is.
But then, Ellen G White is The Channel
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Jim
I was thinking about this question today, but in a totally different context.
I was considering how it is virtually impossible for a company to admit that they've done something wrong. Between the lawyers and the insurance companies, the advice is always "never admit that you are wrong". Admission of wrongness seems to be an invitation to lawsuits.
Given that TWI is a long ways from being a Godly institution and a very short ways from being a corporate institution, it's easy to understand why there is no admission of wrongness.
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