I have no idea what your thesis is about, but as for your question: I was attracted to The Way because the Word was presented to me in a logical way that showed me how important I was to God. (Quite different from my Roman Catholic upbringing!) I also enjoyed the fellowship of people who cared for me and God. I stayed for the same reasons. I was eventually driven out by legalism.
You use the terms symbolic convergence theory and fantasy theme sharing, ok what they describe is very simple .
To have something in common to beieve in .
Sure we did all of us of one source or another ie: the bible, the leaders, family members, to get another born again and to speak in tongues.
The pfal class. I would consider this the mainstay (theme) for most.
whether it is fantasy is up to each individual to decide .
EVERY single group has to have a convergence theory to survive .
families , work, those who drive this way to work ,the list is endless and the goal or "fantasy" as you describe is common or symbolic to their goals .
The confidence that Way people had in what they believed: I wanted that
I thought speaking in tongues was cool
Little by little I believed what was taught and made it part of my own belief system. I believed that The Way represented the only place that the whole truth was being taught. Even after leaving for a few years, I still believed it all: I had left mainly because I couldn't get along with the Limb Coordinator.
When I came back I started to doubt little by little, what kept me in for a long time was the hope that I would figure it out if I just stuck with it. Later I stuck with it because I believed (rightly as it turned out) that my marriage would end if I left TWI.
i was attracted to the idea of really knowing god, being able to communicate with him just like you would a person, etc.
i stayed because i thought if i left, i would be dog dirt
what started out as a seemingly nice outfit evolved into the ONLY place to be if you wanted to serve god
i don't even know when it happened. i liked it at first because it helped get over some of hte old catholic guilt and then without my even realizing it, it was way worse
Good luck with your work. I think you need to deal with this on two levels - the conscious and the non conscious.
As with any abusive relationships, there are needs and psychological factors that keep the victim in the relationship and usually the victim is not aware of these.
So when you ask this question you're most likely to get the conscious stories we tell ourselves about why we stay - stuff like the word, the fellowhship, the friends.
In my case the non-conscious stuff was a need for a father figure, the feeling of saftey from having many of my decisions made for me, the ease of having my identity and my standing in the group be determined by factors that I could easily control such as attendance at meetings, loyalty and leading other drones.
It was the first time I had ever been exposed to a group of just plain folks who didn't appear to be trying to one-up each other. At first, I didn't hear any hate messages, either.
Also, it was so very cool that I could do sex and drugs and rock-n-roll and still be on the good side of God.
I had never been introduced to a god like that before!
Then it became a survival thing...way folks were the only folks who would take me as troubled teen who refused to go home.
After that, it was the only social group I had developed, so it was the only place where I had friends.
Then I took piffle. It made me feel one with god and at least as knowledgeable of the universe as any 2-bit preacher...and often I felt even more knowledgeable...which was the head trip I was most susceptible to after being raised in a violent, judgemental, condemning home. My folks always told me I'd never amount to anything and that I was going to go to hell.
Well...along came twi with piffle and, voila!, I wan't only going to avoid hell, but I was in an elite group of christians with a special responsibility to deliver the masses. It had been a lifelong fantasy of mine to save the world. TWI offered not only the means to do such a thing, but the head trip that would make someone believe they could such a thing.
Once I began to see the horrible error in the majority of twi doctrines, that 'save the world' fantasy became a fantasy to 'save my brothers and sisters in twi'.
It was this last fantasy that kept me around twi for 10 years after I knew it was a bunch of hogwash.
It was also that fantasy that led me to seek out offshoots...and kept me in the cult mindset for another 12 years.
I was attracted to the people, how they seemed to know God and had answers. They were the kind of people I always wanted to be.
The reason I stayed so long was totally out of fear. I was afraid the hedge of protection would not be there if I didn't stay in the household. I truly believed that something bad would happen to me.
I was impressed by Christian folk that could have fun. They were not, well, boring as a rock. Whew, look at some of the same people that are still in now!
The challenge that was thrown out that "if you think there is anything worthwhile out there in the world go look" did not work on me. I went out and looked. I think it was a dare that they really did not expect anybody to take them up on. I found there were better friends in an "ungodly" civic organization than the sad little cult.
I got sucked into the "accuracy of the word" myth. I really didn't like the people that I had to deal with and I really didn't care much for the "activities" that twi pushed on me...I stuck around in spite of all that. As soon as the "spell" was broke, I skeedaddled.
Like so many others, what initially attracted me was a girl. That was the sole reason I hung around at all to begin with.
After "speaking in tongues" though, I thought that there must be something to this Bible stuff after all. Wrong...
And, as 3-cents mentioned, I don't doubt that Wierwille played the part of a surrogate father for many of us. Although I wasn't conciously looking for a father figure, I had lost my dad rather young, and I'm sure there was some kind of attraction there. I've noticed that quite a number of Wayfers either had no father or a pretty poor relationship with theirs. It seems likely that the overt paternalism VPW pandered was a draw to many of us.
That and the ego-strokes we got from being the privileged few to know "The Wurd" better than anybody else in history, was sufficient to keep us deluded for years...
I was involved with a "Jesus Freak" group, back in the 70's, and a member of twi came to our meetings on a (somewhat) regular basis, and would always ask questions, about what we believed, and why --- after each meeting was over.
What he offered (at the time) made more sense than the doctrinal beliefs that we/I held -- since his questions actually looked at verses in a critical manner, and not just one of acceptance.
When I heard about "the class", it was a natural step from listening to him, to getting one of those "green cards", and signing up. Pfal held more than he ever spoke of (doctrinally), and I felt like I had hit the mother lode of information, so I was in.
That same conduit of info lasted for 10 years, but it dried up, bit by bit. I stayed because of the really great folks I had met, the teaching I was getting, and the sense of "family" that was never in evidence in any other denomination/fellowship that I have been involved in.
If your thesis has a section about --- "Why did you finally leave", --- it was because I was found undesirable, and recalcitrant to the *doctrine* from the dried up conduit, and summarily tossed out. :)-->
quote:Also, it was so very cool that I could do sex and drugs and rock-n-roll and still be on the good side of God.
I had never been introduced to a god like that before!
This is one thing that attracted me to the way also. I had been involved in religion which told me I would go to hell for listening to rock and roll music. The carefree attitude of people in the way attracted me. The speaking in tongues REALLY attracted me because I thought it was THE line to God.
I left because of the legalism and control.
Kinda ironic how it went from one extreme to the next. That shoulda been ringing loud bells to me.
But so much of what we went through in TWI was really unpleasant – and for some, down right awful! (I took pfal in 1972, and left twi for good in 1986) How does a cult take people – many or most with a half a brain, and convince them to give up their own capacity for critical thinking and decision making, and turn it over to the group? Some cults take their members to the point of mass suicide.
Reading secular reports on cults, I often find comments like “certain types of people join cults” – as if we all had certain psychological problems bordering on social deviancy. You and I know not everyone in TWI was pathological (well, maybe all those in leadership).
So, how do cults creates this social reality that is so … captivating?
Did you ever think while you were in, that you might one day be asked to “drink the kool-aide” so-to-speak? Perhaps as a test of your commitment or your believing?
At the risk of being way too simplistic, I would like to suggest that maybe the attraction wasn't so much social/psycological, but maybe spiritual?
Just speaking from personal experience, I grew up in an affluent family, with no real needs, as far as the social/economic...even psycological stuff goes. OK, I'm oversimplifying, because everybody has "stuff".
But honestly, for me and my family, I think it was "spiritual hunger," i.e. dissatisfaction with the church, maybe, that drew us to TWI.
I think wanting to connect with God on a deeper level, inspired us all. VP and company sorta, kinda promised that.
I think many of us did drink the Kool-Aid to a degree, anyway.
We went out W.O.W., went in the "Corps", alienated our friends and family, threw away our educations and careers. To a horribly unsettling extent I personally was somebody else whilst in WayWorld. I parroted another man's thoughts, adopted his goals, and tried like hell to conform to the lifestyle he claimed to live himself (though we know now, that was just more B.S.).
And BTW, I seriously thought that there was an underground of Corps who would be "taking out" select "homos", in order to bring the devil spirit realm in tow. The guy who told me that, later recanted, but the fact that I believed him doesn't speak very highly of my critical thinking abilities at the time.
"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true.
It is the chief occupation of mankind." --H. L. Mencken
quote: So, how do cults creates this social reality that is so … captivating?
By dealing (first and foremost) with the "spiritual side of life", which many of us had questions about, looked for, wanted, and were open to answers about, from just about anyone.
And then once "in", it was an easy step for them to take their "superior spiritual knowledge", and apply it to all other areas of life. Since we accepted the "spiritual side" without question, the rest was probably pretty easy for them to accomplish. Not wanting to lose the spiritual connection, we just went right along with it, no questions asked. (imo).
Yeah so, but how do you explain those of us who finished college, had our family's support, and didn't "drink the kool aid" as far as that stuff goes. We stayed close to family, even got closer, and basically stayed on the same track when everyone left, because the cult was too claustrophobic?
I always got accused of thinking I was the exception to the "rules." Maybe it was true. :D-->
Well people are captivated by many things in life to some degree . The fact twi had good sales in bible study classes prove only that word of mouth at the time worked well and it did.
It was a tiny little cult even in its hey day remeber this is not like the cults like Walmart or pfifer get it?
Sales is all it was and not all that successfull really.
in perspective it was a hick bible preacher that had a good line for a small pfal class.
EX 10 I do not think your the exception in fact I think most did go on to live as you have testified it is just the "victims" and angry people involved that will scream louder and longer as a rule. Life is good for many many more pfal grads than not .
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GeorgeStGeorge
I have no idea what your thesis is about, but as for your question: I was attracted to The Way because the Word was presented to me in a logical way that showed me how important I was to God. (Quite different from my Roman Catholic upbringing!) I also enjoyed the fellowship of people who cared for me and God. I stayed for the same reasons. I was eventually driven out by legalism.
George
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mj412
You use the terms symbolic convergence theory and fantasy theme sharing, ok what they describe is very simple .
To have something in common to beieve in .
Sure we did all of us of one source or another ie: the bible, the leaders, family members, to get another born again and to speak in tongues.
The pfal class. I would consider this the mainstay (theme) for most.
whether it is fantasy is up to each individual to decide .
EVERY single group has to have a convergence theory to survive .
families , work, those who drive this way to work ,the list is endless and the goal or "fantasy" as you describe is common or symbolic to their goals .
Is this a 101 scociology course?
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Oakspear
What attracted me initially?
Little by little I believed what was taught and made it part of my own belief system. I believed that The Way represented the only place that the whole truth was being taught. Even after leaving for a few years, I still believed it all: I had left mainly because I couldn't get along with the Limb Coordinator.
When I came back I started to doubt little by little, what kept me in for a long time was the hope that I would figure it out if I just stuck with it. Later I stuck with it because I believed (rightly as it turned out) that my marriage would end if I left TWI.
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excathedra
from what i can remember:
i was attracted to the idea of really knowing god, being able to communicate with him just like you would a person, etc.
i stayed because i thought if i left, i would be dog dirt
what started out as a seemingly nice outfit evolved into the ONLY place to be if you wanted to serve god
i don't even know when it happened. i liked it at first because it helped get over some of hte old catholic guilt and then without my even realizing it, it was way worse
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My3Cents
Parsley,
Good luck with your work. I think you need to deal with this on two levels - the conscious and the non conscious.
As with any abusive relationships, there are needs and psychological factors that keep the victim in the relationship and usually the victim is not aware of these.
So when you ask this question you're most likely to get the conscious stories we tell ourselves about why we stay - stuff like the word, the fellowhship, the friends.
In my case the non-conscious stuff was a need for a father figure, the feeling of saftey from having many of my decisions made for me, the ease of having my identity and my standing in the group be determined by factors that I could easily control such as attendance at meetings, loyalty and leading other drones.
Hope that helps.
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excathedra
great point, my3cents
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CoolWaters
It was the first time I had ever been exposed to a group of just plain folks who didn't appear to be trying to one-up each other. At first, I didn't hear any hate messages, either.
Also, it was so very cool that I could do sex and drugs and rock-n-roll and still be on the good side of God.
I had never been introduced to a god like that before!
Then it became a survival thing...way folks were the only folks who would take me as troubled teen who refused to go home.
After that, it was the only social group I had developed, so it was the only place where I had friends.
Then I took piffle. It made me feel one with god and at least as knowledgeable of the universe as any 2-bit preacher...and often I felt even more knowledgeable...which was the head trip I was most susceptible to after being raised in a violent, judgemental, condemning home. My folks always told me I'd never amount to anything and that I was going to go to hell.
Well...along came twi with piffle and, voila!, I wan't only going to avoid hell, but I was in an elite group of christians with a special responsibility to deliver the masses. It had been a lifelong fantasy of mine to save the world. TWI offered not only the means to do such a thing, but the head trip that would make someone believe they could such a thing.
Once I began to see the horrible error in the majority of twi doctrines, that 'save the world' fantasy became a fantasy to 'save my brothers and sisters in twi'.
It was this last fantasy that kept me around twi for 10 years after I knew it was a bunch of hogwash.
It was also that fantasy that led me to seek out offshoots...and kept me in the cult mindset for another 12 years.
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vickles
I was attracted to the people, how they seemed to know God and had answers. They were the kind of people I always wanted to be.
The reason I stayed so long was totally out of fear. I was afraid the hedge of protection would not be there if I didn't stay in the household. I truly believed that something bad would happen to me.
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Ham
I was impressed by Christian folk that could have fun. They were not, well, boring as a rock. Whew, look at some of the same people that are still in now!
The challenge that was thrown out that "if you think there is anything worthwhile out there in the world go look" did not work on me. I went out and looked. I think it was a dare that they really did not expect anybody to take them up on. I found there were better friends in an "ungodly" civic organization than the sad little cult.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I got sucked into the "accuracy of the word" myth. I really didn't like the people that I had to deal with and I really didn't care much for the "activities" that twi pushed on me...I stuck around in spite of all that. As soon as the "spell" was broke, I skeedaddled.
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George Aar
Like so many others, what initially attracted me was a girl. That was the sole reason I hung around at all to begin with.
After "speaking in tongues" though, I thought that there must be something to this Bible stuff after all. Wrong...
And, as 3-cents mentioned, I don't doubt that Wierwille played the part of a surrogate father for many of us. Although I wasn't conciously looking for a father figure, I had lost my dad rather young, and I'm sure there was some kind of attraction there. I've noticed that quite a number of Wayfers either had no father or a pretty poor relationship with theirs. It seems likely that the overt paternalism VPW pandered was a draw to many of us.
That and the ego-strokes we got from being the privileged few to know "The Wurd" better than anybody else in history, was sufficient to keep us deluded for years...
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dmiller
I was involved with a "Jesus Freak" group, back in the 70's, and a member of twi came to our meetings on a (somewhat) regular basis, and would always ask questions, about what we believed, and why --- after each meeting was over.
What he offered (at the time) made more sense than the doctrinal beliefs that we/I held -- since his questions actually looked at verses in a critical manner, and not just one of acceptance.
When I heard about "the class", it was a natural step from listening to him, to getting one of those "green cards", and signing up. Pfal held more than he ever spoke of (doctrinally), and I felt like I had hit the mother lode of information, so I was in.
That same conduit of info lasted for 10 years, but it dried up, bit by bit. I stayed because of the really great folks I had met, the teaching I was getting, and the sense of "family" that was never in evidence in any other denomination/fellowship that I have been involved in.
If your thesis has a section about --- "Why did you finally leave", --- it was because I was found undesirable, and recalcitrant to the *doctrine* from the dried up conduit, and summarily tossed out.
:)-->
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valerie52
I became interested in The Way in high school.
I wanted to have a REAL relationship with God and the Epicopal church wasn't helping me.
The youth club did not study the bible together!! They laughed at me when I asked when the bible teching was
:(-->
I woudl watch this group of kids go pray accross the street from San Marin High School in Novato CA.
In that group was Brooks Mason, David Lehman, Darlene Parianni, (who later married George Hedrickson of 3rd Corps). thats all I remember.
I wanted to join them but was so afraid of rejection that I never did.
I just watched them pray together.
:)-->
I had typing class with Brooks Mason.
I asked him what they were doing etc etc.
After I graduated, I went to fellowship with him in a home near the high school.
Present were, that I remember, the above named people, plus Pat and Mary Hughes, and Donna Lombardi, now Donna Martindale.
Brooks stood up and so I stood up too, not
knowing what else to do, and he began to speak in tounges!
I was SOOOO emabarassed
:o-->
I left shortly after that for the summer with my grandmother in Richmond Va.
There was no way there in summer of 71, so I hung out with whatever jesus freaks I could find.
I was very turned off by one of them telling me how horny he was and need me to "help" him EEUUWW..
What as .....
I came back to CA in the fall for college, at The College Of Marin, and hooked up with Brooks again in College.
There I met Steve Zollezi, who basically took over undersheparding me, I guess I was a handful
;)-->
I took PFAL in Nov 71.
I had to hitch-hike over a mountain to get to the class and no one ever offered me a ride.
THAT should have been my red flag.
Everyone was smoking and I started
smoking too
:(--> 
:(--> 
:(-->
That should have been the other red flag.
I hungered so much for a relationship with God and this is what I got sunk into.
It was part of my journey to where I am today.
I should have been able to move on, like I can today, when things get ate-up.
The way had a big blow up in Feb of 72.
VPW was teaching in a meeting hall, and Steve Heefner came in and yelled out, "Wierwille you are a liar!"..
I wanted to know what the problem was. I tried to get Steve Zolezzi to tell me.
But Steve Zolezzi convinced me, that everything was fine and that Steve Heefner was wrong.
Now I would love to know, does any body out there know???
What was Steve Heefner upset about?
VPW screwing a young woman?
Did VPW hit on Steve's wife?
Steve was physically escorted out of the building.
I never saw him again.
What did Steve Heefner know back then that we should have been able to know about??
The Way was so Nicolaitan, which Yahusah hates, no one would say anything way back then even!!
Oh the lies and secrets kept!
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Nottawayfer
This is one thing that attracted me to the way also. I had been involved in religion which told me I would go to hell for listening to rock and roll music. The carefree attitude of people in the way attracted me. The speaking in tongues REALLY attracted me because I thought it was THE line to God.
I left because of the legalism and control.
Kinda ironic how it went from one extreme to the next. That shoulda been ringing loud bells to me.
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mzimagine
Why did I join?
Looking for grace and truth.
Why did I leave?
Looking for grace and truth.
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parsley
But so much of what we went through in TWI was really unpleasant – and for some, down right awful! (I took pfal in 1972, and left twi for good in 1986) How does a cult take people – many or most with a half a brain, and convince them to give up their own capacity for critical thinking and decision making, and turn it over to the group? Some cults take their members to the point of mass suicide.
Reading secular reports on cults, I often find comments like “certain types of people join cults” – as if we all had certain psychological problems bordering on social deviancy. You and I know not everyone in TWI was pathological (well, maybe all those in leadership).
So, how do cults creates this social reality that is so … captivating?
Did you ever think while you were in, that you might one day be asked to “drink the kool-aide” so-to-speak? Perhaps as a test of your commitment or your believing?
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ex10
parsley
At the risk of being way too simplistic, I would like to suggest that maybe the attraction wasn't so much social/psycological, but maybe spiritual?
Just speaking from personal experience, I grew up in an affluent family, with no real needs, as far as the social/economic...even psycological stuff goes. OK, I'm oversimplifying, because everybody has "stuff".
But honestly, for me and my family, I think it was "spiritual hunger," i.e. dissatisfaction with the church, maybe, that drew us to TWI.
I think wanting to connect with God on a deeper level, inspired us all. VP and company sorta, kinda promised that.
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George Aar
Parsley,
I think many of us did drink the Kool-Aid to a degree, anyway.
We went out W.O.W., went in the "Corps", alienated our friends and family, threw away our educations and careers. To a horribly unsettling extent I personally was somebody else whilst in WayWorld. I parroted another man's thoughts, adopted his goals, and tried like hell to conform to the lifestyle he claimed to live himself (though we know now, that was just more B.S.).
And BTW, I seriously thought that there was an underground of Corps who would be "taking out" select "homos", in order to bring the devil spirit realm in tow. The guy who told me that, later recanted, but the fact that I believed him doesn't speak very highly of my critical thinking abilities at the time.
"The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true.
It is the chief occupation of mankind." --H. L. Mencken
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dmiller
By dealing (first and foremost) with the "spiritual side of life", which many of us had questions about, looked for, wanted, and were open to answers about, from just about anyone.
And then once "in", it was an easy step for them to take their "superior spiritual knowledge", and apply it to all other areas of life. Since we accepted the "spiritual side" without question, the rest was probably pretty easy for them to accomplish. Not wanting to lose the spiritual connection, we just went right along with it, no questions asked. (imo).
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ex10
Yeah so, but how do you explain those of us who finished college, had our family's support, and didn't "drink the kool aid" as far as that stuff goes. We stayed close to family, even got closer, and basically stayed on the same track when everyone left, because the cult was too claustrophobic?
I always got accused of thinking I was the exception to the "rules." Maybe it was true.
:D-->
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vickles
Ex 10, even though your family was close, don't you think your family and you still drank the koolaide in a way because you believed everything?
Not being facetious, just wondering.
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mj412
Parsley you ask about being captive by twi.
Well people are captivated by many things in life to some degree . The fact twi had good sales in bible study classes prove only that word of mouth at the time worked well and it did.
It was a tiny little cult even in its hey day remeber this is not like the cults like Walmart or pfifer get it?
Sales is all it was and not all that successfull really.
in perspective it was a hick bible preacher that had a good line for a small pfal class.
EX 10 I do not think your the exception in fact I think most did go on to live as you have testified it is just the "victims" and angry people involved that will scream louder and longer as a rule. Life is good for many many more pfal grads than not .
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ex10
vickles
What makes you think we "believed everything?"
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ex10
and yeah, mj, I kinda agree in a way. The way sold a bible class, and some people just got interested in the bible.
:D-->
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