Ever consider the effect that Charleton Heston playing Moses had on our culture's mental image of that Biblical character. Now that it is firmly buring into everyone's mind, try to read the Bible seeing that the real Moses stuttered, and had no public leadership abilitys
In reference to "the real Moses stuttered and had no public leadership abilitys"..............does anyone remember hearing a teaching that clarified this?
As best I recall, John Shoexheit (or someone) taught that Moses had been in exile. Many years later, after the king of Egypt died [Exodus 2:23]...and God heard their groaning, God remembered his covenant with Abraham. Thus, when Moses rose up to be God's spokesman.....Moses was referring to his loss of the language skills having been in exile for many (??) years.
In other words, Moses was NOT a stutterer.....he had simply been away in exile in Midian and didn't feel equipped to be God's spokesman.
Anyone hear this teaching? Anyone who has studied this indepth?
skyrider, I remember hearing that teaching. I think I heard craig teach it though. I didn't study it, but it did make sense at the time.....but then again, so did other things that turned out to be absurd. :D--> Someone wiser than I will have to weigh in on it, but I can tell you it was taught.
Belle....if craig taught it, the "research" most likely came from another source. Generally, others would pass their study topics up the chain of command that eventually reached him.
In many ways, it seemed to fit with the context. After all, Moses was in Midian in exile.....and the scriptures don't detail the years that passed before the Egyptian king died. Moses had been away from the land and the language.
Besides, who wouldn't be a little flustered if God Almighty came calling????? :D-->
Anyone want to take on an assignment like THAT?????? ;)-->
TWI did teach that Moses forgot how to speak Egyptian, causing a sort of broken speech. God therefore had Aaron speak for him. It's a pretty lame explanation. Has anyone ever forgotten a language that was their primary language for 40 years?
There is a better explanation, but I can't seem to recall it off the top of my head at the moment. I'll look it up when I get home (yes, I'm at work, but don't feel like working, and am looking for the first excuse to leave :)--> ).
Ever consider the effect that Charleton Heston playing Moses had on our culture's mental image of that Biblical character. ...
"In reference to "the real Moses stuttered and had no public leadership abilitys"..............does anyone remember hearing a teaching that clarified this?"
No I do not, I have however read:
Exodus 4:
10And Moses said unto the LORD, O my LORD, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13And he said, O my LORD, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
In verse 10 the word translated 'slow' is Kabed [#3515] [it comes from Kabad meaning to be heavy, sever, or dull] Kabed is used to mean sever, stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick or laden.
Note however The Great Author did not use the usual word for slow which would have been 'Arek [#750].
"As best I recall, John Shoexheit (or someone) taught ...."
Could be, I really would not know.
"In other words, Moses was NOT a stutterer.....he had simply been away in exile in Midian and didn't feel equipped to be God's spokesman."
I see.
Yes, however being that Moses was a great man in G-d's sight and most certainly far closer to G-d than anyone else was at that time, far be it for me to be the one saying that this great prophet did not 'feel' like it. If the Bible said that he did not 'feel' like it, than it would perhaps be easier for me to ascribe that mindset to the man.
Whatever Mose' issue, Mose describes it using a word that would otherwise be translated: stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick, or laden [by the way did I mention that in the Old Testament there is no word that directly translates as to 'Stutter'? hmm.]
And Our Creator decided that it was a significant enough of an issue that He directed Moses to use Aaron as a spokesman to the public in Mose' stead.
:-)
You may of course feel free to continue ascribing whatever motives onto Biblical Prophets as you desire.
TWI did teach that Moses forgot how to speak Egyptian, causing a sort of broken speech. God therefore had Aaron speak for him. It's a pretty lame explanation. Has anyone ever forgotten a language that was their primary language for 40 years?
There is a better explanation, but I can't seem to recall it off the top of my head at the moment. I'll look it up when I get home.....
Might I be so bold as to suggest looking things up, in the future. Sounds like such would have been a good practice back 'then' as well.
Now Galen.......you know better that THAT! If you start doing independent research and the next guy does the same......then twi will NO LONGER be like-minded. It's called -- private interpretation.
Neither you DARE interpret it, nor I......else it would be one's own private interpretation. Like a dog letting loose on the game.
"Now Galen.......you know better that THAT! If you start doing independent research and the next guy does the same......then twi will NO LONGER be like-minded. It's called -- private interpretation."
"Didn't you learn anything in pfal??????"
No, I learned that I needed to be doing word-studies myself and everyone else learned that too, but alas it was not done everywhere.
If the guy who taught PFAL was a little more receptive to research that wasn't his maybe "everybody else who learned it too" might have been more motivated to do it.
Well, I've forgotten what book it was I read about Moses' little speech problem in Exodus 4 and am unable to locate it. Either that, I'm imagining things.
But doing a little digging around, I found there are 4 theories attempting explanation of this:
1) he stuttered (physical impairment)
2) he stammered (mental impairment)
3) he forgot the Egyptian language
4) he forgot the Hebrew language
Judging just by the exact text of Exodus 4:10, 1 and 2 make sense. If you combine everything else known about Moses, 1 and 2 make no sense.
3 makes no sense since it is believed he lived in Egypt for 40 years before leaving. He was educated in Pharaoh’s household, which meant he got the best available, including the Egyptian language and, I believe, a couple other major ones.
4 kind of makes sense, but not really, especially if you believe what TWI taught, in that his own mother had a hand in his raising him until he was at least in his teens. If she was going to teach him about the God of the Hebrews, then he would probably need to know their language.
Of course, the entire Exodus makes no sense to me. If Moses had been raised in Pharaoh's household by his daughter, he would have been considered a member of the household and in direct line of succession to be Pharaoh. If there were no other claims before him, he would be Pharaoh. His being plucked from the Nile by her would have only added legitimacy to his claim, being seen as a gift from the gods to the Pharaoh household.
Since the time that is believed that the Exodus occurs is also a time when the Pharaoh line sort of petered out and military commanders were assuming the role, backed up in Exodus by a Pharaoh rising to power that "knew not Moses," then Moses did have a legitimate claim to the throne. Wouldn't it make more sense for God to have Moses go in and claim his throne, then declare the Hebrews free? Seems that most of the bloodshed could have been avoided.
But, this is approaching Doctrinal Forum status, so I’ll leave it at that.
Sorry I couldn’t find what I thought I remembered reading.
Kind of depends on how many daughters Pharoah had, whether there were any sons, etc.
In England the children of Princess Anne are kind of low on the succession totem pole, I doubt that Moses had anything close to a legitimate claim on the Egyptian throne.
Kind of depends on how many daughters Pharoah had, whether there were any sons, etc.
That was my point. There were no other heirs. Historical and Biblical evidence points to this. History shows there was a break in the line of Pharoahs at this time, where military commanders assumed the role. Exodus states that the current Pharoah did not know Moses, which means he didn't live in Pharoahs household, as Moses had -- otherwise, he should have known who Moses was.
As a matter of fact, someone in Egypt associated with the Pharoah should have known who Moses was.
Yul Brynner was the true son of the Pharoah. That is why Moses decided to make trouble and get kicked out, cross the desert, have an epiphany, then come back to free the slaves...
Mouse: HA HA HA...you BET!!! It's going to be all right tonight in THIS, the POWER house church of the presumtuous assumption of...the BLINDING LIGHT!
all singing: oh blinding light, oh light that blinds, I cannot see, look OUT for me.
Mouse: In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the ACs from the DCs...well AREN'T we all YEARNING for someone who can turn on a little STOPPING POWER? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass? Don't you know I mean a lightning ROD? I'M talking about our own pastor ROD FLASH!!! HE'S been up for a WEEK!!! But he's coming down....
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Mike
Galen,
How did Peter and James and John know that it was Moses and Elijah on the Mount of the Transfiguration with Jesus?
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I don't know about about Elijah, but they immediately recognized Moses
because he looked exactly like Charlton Heston.
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skyrider
In reference to "the real Moses stuttered and had no public leadership abilitys"..............does anyone remember hearing a teaching that clarified this?
As best I recall, John Shoexheit (or someone) taught that Moses had been in exile. Many years later, after the king of Egypt died [Exodus 2:23]...and God heard their groaning, God remembered his covenant with Abraham. Thus, when Moses rose up to be God's spokesman.....Moses was referring to his loss of the language skills having been in exile for many (??) years.
In other words, Moses was NOT a stutterer.....he had simply been away in exile in Midian and didn't feel equipped to be God's spokesman.
Anyone hear this teaching? Anyone who has studied this indepth?
Thanks.
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oldiesman
Mike, go and see Passion of the Christ.
Your homework assignment for this weekend.
:)-->
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Belle
skyrider, I remember hearing that teaching. I think I heard craig teach it though. I didn't study it, but it did make sense at the time.....but then again, so did other things that turned out to be absurd.
:D--> Someone wiser than I will have to weigh in on it, but I can tell you it was taught.
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skyrider
Belle....if craig taught it, the "research" most likely came from another source. Generally, others would pass their study topics up the chain of command that eventually reached him.
In many ways, it seemed to fit with the context. After all, Moses was in Midian in exile.....and the scriptures don't detail the years that passed before the Egyptian king died. Moses had been away from the land and the language.
Besides, who wouldn't be a little flustered if God Almighty came calling?????
:D-->
Anyone want to take on an assignment like THAT??????
;)-->
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Bob
TWI did teach that Moses forgot how to speak Egyptian, causing a sort of broken speech. God therefore had Aaron speak for him. It's a pretty lame explanation. Has anyone ever forgotten a language that was their primary language for 40 years?
There is a better explanation, but I can't seem to recall it off the top of my head at the moment. I'll look it up when I get home (yes, I'm at work, but don't feel like working, and am looking for the first excuse to leave
:)--> ).
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Galen
skyrider:
"In reference to "the real Moses stuttered and had no public leadership abilitys"..............does anyone remember hearing a teaching that clarified this?"
No I do not, I have however read:
Exodus 4:
10And Moses said unto the LORD, O my LORD, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13And he said, O my LORD, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
14And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
In verse 10 the word translated 'slow' is Kabed [#3515] [it comes from Kabad meaning to be heavy, sever, or dull] Kabed is used to mean sever, stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick or laden.
Note however The Great Author did not use the usual word for slow which would have been 'Arek [#750].
"As best I recall, John Shoexheit (or someone) taught ...."
Could be, I really would not know.
"In other words, Moses was NOT a stutterer.....he had simply been away in exile in Midian and didn't feel equipped to be God's spokesman."
I see.
Yes, however being that Moses was a great man in G-d's sight and most certainly far closer to G-d than anyone else was at that time, far be it for me to be the one saying that this great prophet did not 'feel' like it. If the Bible said that he did not 'feel' like it, than it would perhaps be easier for me to ascribe that mindset to the man.
Whatever Mose' issue, Mose describes it using a word that would otherwise be translated: stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick, or laden [by the way did I mention that in the Old Testament there is no word that directly translates as to 'Stutter'? hmm.]
And Our Creator decided that it was a significant enough of an issue that He directed Moses to use Aaron as a spokesman to the public in Mose' stead.
:-)
You may of course feel free to continue ascribing whatever motives onto Biblical Prophets as you desire.
:-)
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Galen
Belle:
"I think I heard craig teach it though. I didn't study it, but it did make sense at the time....."
Might I be so bold as to suggest looking things up, in the future. Sounds like such would have been a good practice back 'then' as well.
:-)
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skyrider
Thanks Bob......appreciate it.
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skyrider
Now Galen.......you know better that THAT! If you start doing independent research and the next guy does the same......then twi will NO LONGER be like-minded. It's called -- private interpretation.
Neither you DARE interpret it, nor I......else it would be one's own private interpretation. Like a dog letting loose on the game.
Didn't you learn anything in pfal??????
;)-->
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Galen
skyrider:
"Now Galen.......you know better that THAT! If you start doing independent research and the next guy does the same......then twi will NO LONGER be like-minded. It's called -- private interpretation."
"Didn't you learn anything in pfal??????"
No, I learned that I needed to be doing word-studies myself and everyone else learned that too, but alas it was not done everywhere.
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Oakspear
If the guy who taught PFAL was a little more receptive to research that wasn't his maybe "everybody else who learned it too" might have been more motivated to do it.
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Bob
Well, I've forgotten what book it was I read about Moses' little speech problem in Exodus 4 and am unable to locate it. Either that, I'm imagining things.
But doing a little digging around, I found there are 4 theories attempting explanation of this:
1) he stuttered (physical impairment)
2) he stammered (mental impairment)
3) he forgot the Egyptian language
4) he forgot the Hebrew language
Judging just by the exact text of Exodus 4:10, 1 and 2 make sense. If you combine everything else known about Moses, 1 and 2 make no sense.
3 makes no sense since it is believed he lived in Egypt for 40 years before leaving. He was educated in Pharaoh’s household, which meant he got the best available, including the Egyptian language and, I believe, a couple other major ones.
4 kind of makes sense, but not really, especially if you believe what TWI taught, in that his own mother had a hand in his raising him until he was at least in his teens. If she was going to teach him about the God of the Hebrews, then he would probably need to know their language.
Of course, the entire Exodus makes no sense to me. If Moses had been raised in Pharaoh's household by his daughter, he would have been considered a member of the household and in direct line of succession to be Pharaoh. If there were no other claims before him, he would be Pharaoh. His being plucked from the Nile by her would have only added legitimacy to his claim, being seen as a gift from the gods to the Pharaoh household.
Since the time that is believed that the Exodus occurs is also a time when the Pharaoh line sort of petered out and military commanders were assuming the role, backed up in Exodus by a Pharaoh rising to power that "knew not Moses," then Moses did have a legitimate claim to the throne. Wouldn't it make more sense for God to have Moses go in and claim his throne, then declare the Hebrews free? Seems that most of the bloodshed could have been avoided.
But, this is approaching Doctrinal Forum status, so I’ll leave it at that.
Sorry I couldn’t find what I thought I remembered reading.
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Oakspear
Kind of depends on how many daughters Pharoah had, whether there were any sons, etc.
In England the children of Princess Anne are kind of low on the succession totem pole, I doubt that Moses had anything close to a legitimate claim on the Egyptian throne.
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Ham
Well, George Bush is my twenty second cousin twice removed. I thought I would "grace" you with my presence this evening.
You may now start throwing compliments, and money..
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Ham
Only clean, laundered money accepted.
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Ham
And that fellow sitting on the back row: don't even THINK about throwing that tomato..
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Bob
That was my point. There were no other heirs. Historical and Biblical evidence points to this. History shows there was a break in the line of Pharoahs at this time, where military commanders assumed the role. Exodus states that the current Pharoah did not know Moses, which means he didn't live in Pharoahs household, as Moses had -- otherwise, he should have known who Moses was.
As a matter of fact, someone in Egypt associated with the Pharoah should have known who Moses was.
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J0nny Ling0
Yul Brynner was the true son of the Pharoah. That is why Moses decided to make trouble and get kicked out, cross the desert, have an epiphany, then come back to free the slaves...
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Bob
I forgot about him. Now it makes sense.
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Mike
May I have the envelope please?
(fumble, fumble, tear, rattle)
And the award for the "MOST DERAILED THREAD OF THE YEAR" goes to ..........
"New TWI Website"
:)-->
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Abigail, would you step up to the podium and accept your trophy?
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johniam
Deacon E. L. Mouse: IS it going to be all RIGHT?
church: It's going to be all right.
Mouse: HA HA HA...you BET!!! It's going to be all right tonight in THIS, the POWER house church of the presumtuous assumption of...the BLINDING LIGHT!
all singing: oh blinding light, oh light that blinds, I cannot see, look OUT for me.
Mouse: In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the ACs from the DCs...well AREN'T we all YEARNING for someone who can turn on a little STOPPING POWER? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass? Don't you know I mean a lightning ROD? I'M talking about our own pastor ROD FLASH!!! HE'S been up for a WEEK!!! But he's coming down....
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Mike
I'm high alright! But not on false drugs!
I'm high on the REAL thing:
Powerful gasoline, a clean windshield, and a SHOESHINE!
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