And Ermal puffing on his pipe saying, "Pappy was talkin' to him about the storm comin' in, and you better get the Corp inside before they get drenched".
This is bound to get a bunch of angry reponses....but YES THEY....THE TEACHERS, believed the stuff they were saying.
I think this is the CRUX of alot of our questions....WAS IT ALL A HOAX? or DID THEY BELIEVE THEIR OWN THEOLOGY?
It is my personal belief that somewhere, some how, some way.....everyone that taught this stuff.....BELIEVED THIS STUFF. How they got to the point that they believe it wast TRUTH....I don't know. But, I do believe that the time they taught it at Advances, Limb levels, HQ, STS..they believed it with all their hearts. This concept (the world according to RADAR) applies to all twi leadership from bot to twig....THEY BELIEVED IT, right or wrong.
ror
Hi T!!!! He believed it.....for whatever reason, whatever the doctrine...he believed it.
That all a *given*.......I am glad I finally have been released from a prison.....I never thought I would be free from.
I gotta go with ex10 and Radar on that they believed what they said. I watched VP up close and very closely too many times in the early '70s, when he was teaching in the BRC. The intensity when he was really into teaching some great point, and the frustration when he didn't think he was getting the greatness of the idea across like he wanted too.
He believed what he was teaching.
The problem was he rationalised that the grace of God so covered the sin nature that he could go ahead and sin that grace may abound. -->
Remember the those passionate statements VP would say like: "Oh people, if you would only believe the greatness of the grace that God has given you!"
Well, that was his license to use and abuse young women. Just push grace a little here and healing a little there. Grace will cover your sin, God will forgive you, again and again and again. Here a little and there a little on the promises of God.
Rationalise it enough and you start to believe it, then it becomes doctrine.
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh, why it was the weakness that man had and it placed good ol' Godly Paul at the level of VP.
But VP knew his freedom in Christ to have free sex would anger and repulse ordinary believers, so he taught them a form of standard theology to keep them happy and reserved the great freedom revelations for his "spiritually mature," initiated ones, his inner circle of true believers.
The outer circle, fed pablum to keep them happy, the inner circle with the deeper secret truths, why it's :
The Waybylon Mystery Religion.
That's hypocracy.
I'm sure there was times when he was stretching things to fit his rationalizations that he knew he was wrong. But by the time I came along in '73, I believe VP believed all of it. From the milk and pablum he fed us babes in the word to spiritually mature secrets he taught the initiated ones of his inner orgy circle.
When I was looking at WayDale and GreaseSpot, I met a lady who had been on staff at HQ. One day she told me about a conversation she with a member of the extended Weirwille family while on staff. this woman had been the last person to visit VP on the bus just before he died.
VP was frustrated. He couldn't figure out what was that he had done in his life that allowed the cancer spirits to come in which were killing him.
That meant he couldn't figure out what he had done wrong. In other words he had been completely godly in his own eyes.
Paul covered abusing grace in several ways in several places in the epistles, but most notably in Romans,
i wonder if vp really believed he was right in talking young women into having sex, by counseling it was god's way, giving them drinks on motor coach, etc.
Regarding wierwille......wherever vp started, this whole thing went full circle to the point where HE believed that??? Vpw rationalized the scriptures to irrelavance.
Wierwille DECEIVED wierwille.
quote:VP was frustrated. He couldn't figure out what was that he had done in his life that allowed the cancer spirits to come in which were killing him.
He failed to comprehend......that's why they're called 'deceiving spirits.' ;)-->
VERY WELL said! You are absolutely on point precisely.
ex10 "T"... You are right too. You don't "build" a following of 20, 30 thousand being a joke.
As much as we all want to puke over it... the man was good. AND He did teach us things we'd never heard, even those of us that had been in church all our lives. Was most of it stolen??? ABSOLUTELY... but the originator of the material didn't get it to us... SO... ???
Ever heard of FedEX ?? Were they the first to do overnight delivery???? NO Not by a long shot!
But they were the first to come into your house and tell you THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO DID IT!
I see a lot of posters spewing venom about VPW for many things. AND for many things he deserves that venom.... But many things laid at his feet should be laid at their own feet and take responsibility for things they did on their own.
I have seen posters here I was in res with that were THE BIGGEST suck ups.... spewing venom ferociusly. I was the target at times because I DIDN'T believe every word from VP's or LCM's lips were "from God". And I said so... Now it's funny to see the hypcrosy.
Yeah we believed it... some believed ALL of it, some others believed some of it... AND guess what... ALL of it WASN'T WRONG!!!!!
You go, Al! Yes, indeed...some of the folks most likely to kiss a** are the ones who are most vehemently angry here.
Those like Radar who believed the Word out of a good heart stand up for what really happened regarding that issue (i.e., that the teachers really believed what they taught)...even while acknowledging we were tricked. But hey, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood ... so even though this is a great place to vent (I know, I have vented here) ... it's not a bad thing to realize that one of the reasons we were deceived (as were VPW and others) is that that is what deceiving spirits do best.
quote: I was the target at times because I DIDN'T believe every word from VP's or LCM's lips were "from God". And I said so... Now it's funny to see the hypcrosy.
Al, with all due respect, I was not wc, but I WAS like this at one time. It's terribly embarrassing to me and I have apologized to a few of the people I treated so bad. Others are still in and won't speak with me. And yet others were never in TWI and probably still laugh about that nut in the office spreading her weird doctrines.
I don't know if I would call it hypocrisy though. I like to think of it as "coming to my senses", "waking up", "learning that I know what's best for me instead of some numbskulls hell bent on abuse and manipulation". I don't know you, but if I did, I would apologize for the way I mis-treated you and I'm sure many others on here feel the same way.
I agree they believed most of what they were teaching - when it applied to us!
But they didn't always practice what they preached, did they?
For example, and you 6th will remember this... During our first year in-rez, T*m B*sh*p came from his assigned area in California to Emporia when VP was there.
A few days after he arrived, we had a meeting. (I think T*m had already left the campus - I'm a bit foggy about my time frame - but remember the meeting). Anyway - VP announced that this man had been fooling around with a woman other than his wife and had been dismissed from his responsiblity as the Co-Limb Leader of CA. He told us how screwed up it was, and how much he'd hurt his wife, etc.
This was at a CORPS MEETING! 350+ people were there!
You would think that after publically exposing and degrading this guy, that VP would perhaps not be inclined to do the same, wouldn't you?
Guess he didn't believe everything he taught.
And then there's the whole "God is no respector of persons" so we shouldn't be either, teaching. All that heart-felt teaching that he was no better than any other believer. Uh huh.
Perhaps he believed that there were 4 Crucified and that JC died on a Weds. and got up on Saturday - the boring research stuff. But I think there was plenty of doctrine we were taught that he (and others) may have believed was right for us - but really didn't apply to him.
quote:Perhaps he believed that there were 4 Crucified and that JC died on a Weds. and got up on Saturday - the boring research stuff. But I think there was plenty of doctrine we were taught that he (and others) may have believed was right for us - but really didn't apply to him.
Well... I know of one little incident. Late 80's after a meeting, J*** T*******D was heard by several wayfers after a big meeting- doing his "debriefing" with the staff in a closed room. The hotel walls were apparently very very thin.
He was laughing his a** off about how the people who came probably didn't have enough money left to stop at McDonald's on the way home. Same guy that could put on a pretty good show that he really cared. One of "Doc" Vic's right hand men..
The RCs I know had so much stuff they filled a 4 bedroom house with an office, laid down plywood in the attic so they could fill it up and they did. And they still didn't have enough room so they had to put stuff in the garage and were unable to use it for their cars.
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Stayed Too Long
And Ermal puffing on his pipe saying, "Pappy was talkin' to him about the storm comin' in, and you better get the Corp inside before they get drenched".
Course there were storm clouds all around.
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ex10
Well, having been there, in the teacher's room after a big, cool teaching, I have to say, they believed his stuff.
As far as I could tell, they all believed the bible, spiritual stuff, and treated VP like he was Moses or something.
No kidding.
They thought he could walk on water if he wanted to. Just my perception.
;)-->
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ex10
Come on, think about it a little. VPW was really good at what he did, and somehow mangaed to have a national, even a worldwide following.
You don't do that being being a total numbbut all the time.
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Radar OReilly
Steve,
This is bound to get a bunch of angry reponses....but YES THEY....THE TEACHERS, believed the stuff they were saying.
I think this is the CRUX of alot of our questions....WAS IT ALL A HOAX? or DID THEY BELIEVE THEIR OWN THEOLOGY?
It is my personal belief that somewhere, some how, some way.....everyone that taught this stuff.....BELIEVED THIS STUFF. How they got to the point that they believe it wast TRUTH....I don't know. But, I do believe that the time they taught it at Advances, Limb levels, HQ, STS..they believed it with all their hearts. This concept (the world according to RADAR) applies to all twi leadership from bot to twig....THEY BELIEVED IT, right or wrong.
ror
Hi T!!!! He believed it.....for whatever reason, whatever the doctrine...he believed it.
That all a *given*.......I am glad I finally have been released from a prison.....I never thought I would be free from.
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ex10
No kidding, radar. Love you, girl.
:)-->
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dabobbada
I gotta go with ex10 and Radar on that they believed what they said. I watched VP up close and very closely too many times in the early '70s, when he was teaching in the BRC. The intensity when he was really into teaching some great point, and the frustration when he didn't think he was getting the greatness of the idea across like he wanted too.
He believed what he was teaching.
The problem was he rationalised that the grace of God so covered the sin nature that he could go ahead and sin that grace may abound.
-->
Remember the those passionate statements VP would say like: "Oh people, if you would only believe the greatness of the grace that God has given you!"
Well, that was his license to use and abuse young women. Just push grace a little here and healing a little there. Grace will cover your sin, God will forgive you, again and again and again. Here a little and there a little on the promises of God.
Rationalise it enough and you start to believe it, then it becomes doctrine.
What was Paul's thorn in the flesh, why it was the weakness that man had and it placed good ol' Godly Paul at the level of VP.
But VP knew his freedom in Christ to have free sex would anger and repulse ordinary believers, so he taught them a form of standard theology to keep them happy and reserved the great freedom revelations for his "spiritually mature," initiated ones, his inner circle of true believers.
The outer circle, fed pablum to keep them happy, the inner circle with the deeper secret truths, why it's :
The Waybylon Mystery Religion.
That's hypocracy.
I'm sure there was times when he was stretching things to fit his rationalizations that he knew he was wrong. But by the time I came along in '73, I believe VP believed all of it. From the milk and pablum he fed us babes in the word to spiritually mature secrets he taught the initiated ones of his inner orgy circle.
When I was looking at WayDale and GreaseSpot, I met a lady who had been on staff at HQ. One day she told me about a conversation she with a member of the extended Weirwille family while on staff. this woman had been the last person to visit VP on the bus just before he died.
VP was frustrated. He couldn't figure out what was that he had done in his life that allowed the cancer spirits to come in which were killing him.
That meant he couldn't figure out what he had done wrong. In other words he had been completely godly in his own eyes.
Paul covered abusing grace in several ways in several places in the epistles, but most notably in Romans,
Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid
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excathedra
i wonder if vp really believed he was right in talking young women into having sex, by counseling it was god's way, giving them drinks on motor coach, etc.
i mean could he really think that was good ?
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JustThinking
Dabobbada,
You probably could have stopped after the word "rationalized." It would explain much.
JT
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skyrider
Regarding wierwille......wherever vp started, this whole thing went full circle to the point where HE believed that??? Vpw rationalized the scriptures to irrelavance.
Wierwille DECEIVED wierwille.
He failed to comprehend......that's why they're called 'deceiving spirits.'
;)-->
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Ham
"The outer circle, fed pablum to keep them happy, the inner circle with the deeper secret truths, why it's : The Waybylon Mystery Religion."
Dabobdada, I may frame that and put it on the wall..
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jardinero
Well said, Dabobbada.
And Sky - - according to vpw's own theology, the more powerful the individual, the "bigger" those damn deceiving spirits had to be to hook ya!
J.
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GrouchoMarxJr
If I've learned anything in life...it's that people will believe ANYTHING.
Jim Jones followers drank the koolaid
Charles Manson's followers committed murders.
David Koresh followers fought to the death
Timothy Leary's followers visited "strange places"
VP Wierwille's followers sexually abused women and bullied others...and drove some to suicide.
As Leonard Cohen once said..."Everybody wants a box of chocolates and a long stem rose...Everybody knows..."
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Al Poole
dabobbada....
VERY WELL said! You are absolutely on point precisely.
ex10 "T"... You are right too. You don't "build" a following of 20, 30 thousand being a joke.
As much as we all want to puke over it... the man was good. AND He did teach us things we'd never heard, even those of us that had been in church all our lives. Was most of it stolen??? ABSOLUTELY... but the originator of the material didn't get it to us... SO... ???
Ever heard of FedEX ?? Were they the first to do overnight delivery???? NO Not by a long shot!
But they were the first to come into your house and tell you THEY WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO DID IT!
I see a lot of posters spewing venom about VPW for many things. AND for many things he deserves that venom.... But many things laid at his feet should be laid at their own feet and take responsibility for things they did on their own.
I have seen posters here I was in res with that were THE BIGGEST suck ups.... spewing venom ferociusly. I was the target at times because I DIDN'T believe every word from VP's or LCM's lips were "from God". And I said so... Now it's funny to see the hypcrosy.
Yeah we believed it... some believed ALL of it, some others believed some of it... AND guess what... ALL of it WASN'T WRONG!!!!!
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excathedra
any examples of that venom, Al ? just curious
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skyrider
Well....I'm not going to be the one who says, "ALL of it was WRONG."
John 14:6.......was RIGHT.....and I still believe it.
:D-->
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ToadFriend
You go, Al! Yes, indeed...some of the folks most likely to kiss a** are the ones who are most vehemently angry here.
Those like Radar who believed the Word out of a good heart stand up for what really happened regarding that issue (i.e., that the teachers really believed what they taught)...even while acknowledging we were tricked. But hey, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood ... so even though this is a great place to vent (I know, I have vented here) ... it's not a bad thing to realize that one of the reasons we were deceived (as were VPW and others) is that that is what deceiving spirits do best.
Hopping off my soapbox and back to the pond,
ToadFriend
TF
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JustThinking
Toad,
Your posts are ribbiting.
;)-->
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Belle
Al, with all due respect, I was not wc, but I WAS like this at one time. It's terribly embarrassing to me and I have apologized to a few of the people I treated so bad. Others are still in and won't speak with me. And yet others were never in TWI and probably still laugh about that nut in the office spreading her weird doctrines.
I don't know if I would call it hypocrisy though. I like to think of it as "coming to my senses", "waking up", "learning that I know what's best for me instead of some numbskulls hell bent on abuse and manipulation". I don't know you, but if I did, I would apologize for the way I mis-treated you and I'm sure many others on here feel the same way.
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Hope R.
I agree they believed most of what they were teaching - when it applied to us!
But they didn't always practice what they preached, did they?
For example, and you 6th will remember this... During our first year in-rez, T*m B*sh*p came from his assigned area in California to Emporia when VP was there.
A few days after he arrived, we had a meeting. (I think T*m had already left the campus - I'm a bit foggy about my time frame - but remember the meeting). Anyway - VP announced that this man had been fooling around with a woman other than his wife and had been dismissed from his responsiblity as the Co-Limb Leader of CA. He told us how screwed up it was, and how much he'd hurt his wife, etc.
This was at a CORPS MEETING! 350+ people were there!
You would think that after publically exposing and degrading this guy, that VP would perhaps not be inclined to do the same, wouldn't you?
Guess he didn't believe everything he taught.
And then there's the whole "God is no respector of persons" so we shouldn't be either, teaching. All that heart-felt teaching that he was no better than any other believer. Uh huh.
Perhaps he believed that there were 4 Crucified and that JC died on a Weds. and got up on Saturday - the boring research stuff. But I think there was plenty of doctrine we were taught that he (and others) may have believed was right for us - but really didn't apply to him.
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Hope R.
Steve - darn it - you missed the "present truth" stuff...
According to LCM - lesbian sex was the original sin and the universe is surrounded by water - like a baby in the womb.
Oy.
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excathedra
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Ham
Well... I know of one little incident. Late 80's after a meeting, J*** T*******D was heard by several wayfers after a big meeting- doing his "debriefing" with the staff in a closed room. The hotel walls were apparently very very thin.
He was laughing his a** off about how the people who came probably didn't have enough money left to stop at McDonald's on the way home. Same guy that could put on a pretty good show that he really cared. One of "Doc" Vic's right hand men..
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Belle
How about travelling light and on a "need basis"?
The RCs I know had so much stuff they filled a 4 bedroom house with an office, laid down plywood in the attic so they could fill it up and they did. And they still didn't have enough room so they had to put stuff in the garage and were unable to use it for their cars.
"Do as I say not as I do" leadership for sure.
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def59
Lcm wasn't the only one to believe in the water theory. Doesn't mean he wasn't all wet however.
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