The reason I say this is, because twi doctrine and practice enabled and encouraged bad behavior....
People were taught to behave in an immoral manner and rewarded for unethical behavior.
We were not taught how to be of good character.
I think that had twi been truly a Christian place, The top leadership would have insisted on moral and ethical behavior.....ie we would have seen the fruit of the spirit that Galations speaks of verses the fruit of the flesh that was so rampant in twi......
The attributes of twi people that you listed Cool Waters...are all listed as attributes of people who manifest *fruit of the flesh*....
I believe that this is a symptom of the lack of healthy spiritual guidance that we should have been able to expect from those whom claimed to represent God and his scriptures to us...
As it was, the scriptures were used to allow and excuse morally reprehensible behavior.
TWI had some folks that would have been hard to get along with in any situation, but in my experience, there were far more really, truly nice people who got involved.
Frankly, twi rewarded "strength" (ie- being a hard-@$$ jerk) and "single-mindedness" (ie- sticking your nose way up into people's business looking to find the current trendy problem in order to confront and purge it from your area so you could make yourself look good.)
This didn't encourage "difficult" people to change, but did encourage "decent" people to become more hard-edged.
So, to answer your question, I blame the structure and system that was twi.
I dunno.. kind of like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg.. :)-->
Actually, I think TWI brought the WORST out of me at times.
Apparently did the same for others also. I think the prospect of having power over others was a strong attraction for those with less than pure motives.
Once again, Ham posts perzackly what I was going to post. :D-->
TWI was bad, founded by bad people and those bad people promoted and encouraged other bad people. The good times, the healings, the blessings all came from good people who usually weren't in leadership positions (or were very new to their leadership positions).
TWI brought out the worst in most, if not all, of us. I know it did in me. OMG, I could be the most arrogant, self-righteous know-it-all - come to twig and tell about "confronting the world with the word" - get applauses and go back out and be even more of a b*tch because of the support and the examples in leadership I had around me.
I was also miserable and took it out on everyone around me. And those days, the miserable days, you didn't want to be within five hundred miles of me. I'm so glad I never did make it to any leadership position. Scares me to think of what I would have been like with that kind of power....
It is hard to seperate issues in our minds. Geeesssh...the flood gates of my mind go arry at times with all the inquiries..why this , why that!!!! I end up doubted myself and second guessing. I was very judgemental.But my motive was love most of the time.in fact 1 hr ago my daughter and i were talking on the phone and this very subject came up!!
I think certain habits and disciplines learned while in TWI set us up for failure..It only works within thier framework........its a different world....so on.
"Was it really twi that was so bad...Or was it many of the people who made up twi?"
I'm not sure that you can seperate the two. There was the twi doctrine...and there were a mulitplicity of people who acted out their own particular version of "way brain"...some folks were kind and loving and some were nasty and deserving of a severe beating...
It's like any other organization...good ones and bad ones...Of course, the real problem was that even the good ones were subject to the false doctrines of Wierwille...Before you leave twi, the people are the main problem...after you leave, it's the doctrines that you have to deal with and sort out...
The first year I was in there really were no rules. You came to twig if and when you wanted to. It was no big deal if you didn't throw any money in the horn of plenty. No one was expected to choose between their family and 'the word'. We went out partying with friends and other wayfers.
The same rules were in place the first year as the second, but the second was much regimented. It depends on how the rules are enforced.
To answer simply, I believe the ministry itself and what it had to offer in the way of facilitating Gods' Word and offering 'deliverance' to many who were non-churched and many (lest we forget) who came from other denominations was VERY GOOD.The people running it past and present were/are VERY BAD.
p.s. how many know that it was actually Rev. Wayne Clapp(now at CFFM) who finally confronted Craig Martindale FACE TO FACE over what had been going on ?!, take my hat off to him.
Ahhhh, but George, you were probably "arrogant" in that you pointed out obvious errors and actually loved and wanted to take care of people. That kind of thing was not encouraged at all!
When I became arrogant in that regard, I, too, was looked down upon and labeled as a troublemaker.
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rascal
Cool waters, I think that twi was bad..PERIOD!
The reason I say this is, because twi doctrine and practice enabled and encouraged bad behavior....
People were taught to behave in an immoral manner and rewarded for unethical behavior.
We were not taught how to be of good character.
I think that had twi been truly a Christian place, The top leadership would have insisted on moral and ethical behavior.....ie we would have seen the fruit of the spirit that Galations speaks of verses the fruit of the flesh that was so rampant in twi......
The attributes of twi people that you listed Cool Waters...are all listed as attributes of people who manifest *fruit of the flesh*....
I believe that this is a symptom of the lack of healthy spiritual guidance that we should have been able to expect from those whom claimed to represent God and his scriptures to us...
As it was, the scriptures were used to allow and excuse morally reprehensible behavior.
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TheHighWay
CW,
TWI had some folks that would have been hard to get along with in any situation, but in my experience, there were far more really, truly nice people who got involved.
Frankly, twi rewarded "strength" (ie- being a hard-@$$ jerk) and "single-mindedness" (ie- sticking your nose way up into people's business looking to find the current trendy problem in order to confront and purge it from your area so you could make yourself look good.)
This didn't encourage "difficult" people to change, but did encourage "decent" people to become more hard-edged.
So, to answer your question, I blame the structure and system that was twi.
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Ham
I dunno.. kind of like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg..
:)-->
Actually, I think TWI brought the WORST out of me at times.
Apparently did the same for others also. I think the prospect of having power over others was a strong attraction for those with less than pure motives.
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Belle
Once again, Ham posts perzackly what I was going to post.
:D-->
TWI was bad, founded by bad people and those bad people promoted and encouraged other bad people. The good times, the healings, the blessings all came from good people who usually weren't in leadership positions (or were very new to their leadership positions).
TWI brought out the worst in most, if not all, of us. I know it did in me. OMG, I could be the most arrogant, self-righteous know-it-all - come to twig and tell about "confronting the world with the word" - get applauses and go back out and be even more of a b*tch because of the support and the examples in leadership I had around me.
I was also miserable and took it out on everyone around me. And those days, the miserable days, you didn't want to be within five hundred miles of me. I'm so glad I never did make it to any leadership position. Scares me to think of what I would have been like with that kind of power....
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GeorgeStGeorge
Interesting. It was my being "arrogant" that PO-ed leadership. From the posts above, one would think I should have been "promoted"!
George
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CoolWaters
Thank you, {{{{{Everybody}}}}}.
Sometimes I still hear...and continue to believe...those twi voices in my head that told me my life is $hi+.
Then I blame myself for everything.
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Shellon
Cut that shi+ out!
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likeaneagle
CW-
I know what your saying!
It is hard to seperate issues in our minds. Geeesssh...the flood gates of my mind go arry at times with all the inquiries..why this , why that!!!! I end up doubted myself and second guessing. I was very judgemental.But my motive was love most of the time.in fact 1 hr ago my daughter and i were talking on the phone and this very subject came up!!
I think certain habits and disciplines learned while in TWI set us up for failure..It only works within thier framework........its a different world....so on.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
sure most of the higher ups were asses but on the home front so many sweet and God loving people
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GrouchoMarxJr
"Was it really twi that was so bad...Or was it many of the people who made up twi?"
I'm not sure that you can seperate the two. There was the twi doctrine...and there were a mulitplicity of people who acted out their own particular version of "way brain"...some folks were kind and loving and some were nasty and deserving of a severe beating...
It's like any other organization...good ones and bad ones...Of course, the real problem was that even the good ones were subject to the false doctrines of Wierwille...Before you leave twi, the people are the main problem...after you leave, it's the doctrines that you have to deal with and sort out...
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Stayed Too Long
The first year I was in there really were no rules. You came to twig if and when you wanted to. It was no big deal if you didn't throw any money in the horn of plenty. No one was expected to choose between their family and 'the word'. We went out partying with friends and other wayfers.
The same rules were in place the first year as the second, but the second was much regimented. It depends on how the rules are enforced.
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dmiller
HA! I hear you on that one!!
Seems twi couldn't get anything right.
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Allan
To answer simply, I believe the ministry itself and what it had to offer in the way of facilitating Gods' Word and offering 'deliverance' to many who were non-churched and many (lest we forget) who came from other denominations was VERY GOOD.The people running it past and present were/are VERY BAD.
p.s. how many know that it was actually Rev. Wayne Clapp(now at CFFM) who finally confronted Craig Martindale FACE TO FACE over what had been going on ?!, take my hat off to him.
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Belle
Ahhhh, but George, you were probably "arrogant" in that you pointed out obvious errors and actually loved and wanted to take care of people. That kind of thing was not encouraged at all!
When I became arrogant in that regard, I, too, was looked down upon and labeled as a troublemaker.
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