I never went to it, and am glad I did not. I do like CES though.
Their tapes are not as good as they used to be, however.
What changed with Momentus and what has changed with the tapes? Is JL back? Very curious...
I was involved right when they started. (CFS I think?) My first thought was that it was too Way like and that JL, who I loved, was trying to be the next LCM.
So I walked away but keep tabs, much like I eye TWI, but with out the malice.
I was upset when I went to JL and asked him to officiate my wedding. his reply was that I needed to buy some tapes from him first. That turned me off, even though I felt he was actually being honest with me when he said marriage was for Christians and he wouldn't put his name on a marriage that he wasn't sure was Christian. Still felt like a sales pitch.
I was hurt and annoyed. I had known him my entire life, since I was a baby.
At this point I look at them as Way Light. They are the same only different. Same taste, fewer side effects.
The Momentus thing was another turn off.
Also I found I was going to the meetings for Way gossip and enlightenment on TWI. The teaching became irrelevant to me. It felt more like an ex TWI support group than fellowship. I needed that then more than I do now. The internet fills that support and curiosity now. I just can't bring myself to be involved with Way Light and its splintered brethren.
There were several thread started here on GS regarding the two things you enquire about.
A while back someone started a thread on Momentus and some posted of their experiences with that program. Didn't sound too positive to me with what I read.
As well, at one time, JAL came on here and posted a few times. It was interesting to read his take on things and how he viewed our thoughts here on GS.
I'm sure you could find some of these threads by doing a search on the words Momentus and JAL (he posted under his name).
Momentus, I never had anything to do with it, can't comment on that..
but I've read a LITTLE of CES's materials. To me, it looks like old TWI doctrine, polished and honed to "perfection".
Their book on One God did seem to handle a couple of controversial sections in the bible, a little bit better than vics assumptions. I have to give them some credit for original thinking.
Plus they seem to tend towards documenting their source material, thoroughly. At least in the materials that I personally read. There's actually a real works cited section in the back of the stuff I read.
That's the second thing I would give them credit on, that they are academically honest.
More than you can say than for the "parent" organization.
I dunno.. definitely not guilty of the gross plagiarism that is TWI..
I read their work on the hope. They basically said, "we read this, others say that, therefore we think the word 'rapture' is more appropriate.." or descriptive.
Interesting that they acknowledged folks with DIFFERENT beliefs. Pre-tribulation rapture doctrines, post-tribulation rapture doctrines..
Seems what TWIish was left in the couple of more recent works was better documented..
I have not exhaustively read all their works, so I can't have any more than a general opinion.
I dunno.. definitely not guilty of the gross plagiarism that is TWI..
I do not mean to suggest that CES (or more appropriately, STFI) is guilty of the word for word liftings like VPW did.
What I'm referring to are the teachings that are the same thoughts/ideas/beliefs as twi, but without giving twi any written acknowledgement.
IF plagiarism is using the thoughts/beliefs/teachings of a group one learned from without giving the proper written acknowledgement, then it might be worth examining whether STFI is guilty of much the same thing twi did when it taught the teachings/beliefs/thoughts of those who VPW learned from, without giving proper written acknowledgement in his writings.
I would agree. But I haven't exhaustively looked at their works like I did TWI's. I would, but I'm just too tired.. heh heh.
"We believe the Bible is accurate"
"We believe the Bible can be trusted"
kind of generic, almost could be considered public domain..
But any vey doctrine, and I am thinking of the supposed "original" work in the holy spirit field- if I don't see documentation listing Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard, Vaylee (sp?) and others, it WOULD kind of bother me.
You do make a good point, a copy of a copy of a copy is still: a copy.
I was deeply involved with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I helped edit "Dialogue". I helped edit some of their early books. I attended and was taken for a brief time by the Momentus training.
I love John, John and Mark as my brothers in Christ, and like them as people.
They try to distance themselves from their involvement with TWI. They have drawn up a list of ways in which they differ from the Way. However, there are some attitudes so deeply engrained from their Way daze that they aren't even aware of them. These attitudes of mind are so habitual that their correctness is taken for granted and they remain unquestioned.
Chief among these attitudes is the idea that we should NOT fear God. Wierwille went to remarkable lengths to "rightly divide" Romans 11:20 out of Paul's address to the Christians at Rome. After all, Wierwille taught that fear was believing in reverse, and always wrong.
According to Jeremiah 17:9 and Proverbs 21:2 the heart is deceitful above all thing because a person feels that every intention coming out of his own heart is right. None of us have the ability, in and of our selves, to distinguish between good and evil in the thoughts and intents of our own hearts.
According to Hebrews 4:12, the living Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. In order to recognize the evil in our own hearts, we must submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to God's Word.
We submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts, these things that seem so right, so innocent, so pure, so clean to us, to God's criticism out of the fear of God. A person who doesn't fear God can't tell the difference in his own life between what is right and what is wrong.
When Wierwille got up on the main stage at the ROA and taught truth, he did it because it seemed in his heart the right thing to do. When he raped girls and women in his motorcoach, he did it because it seemed in his heart the right thing to do... and he did not fear God.
Psalm 36:1-2 (NIV) reads, "An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:There is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin."
Wierwille flattered himself too much to be able to see his own sin because he did not fear God.
John, John and Mark have flattered themselves too much to detect or hate the damage Momentus did to their followers, because they do not fear God.
Any person who considers himself to be a post-TWI leader, who has not submitted himself to the truth regarding the fear of God is dangerous, not because he is intentionally out to hurt people, but because, without the fear of God, he can't tell the difference between good and evil in his own heart.
I've spent some time with CES in the early years. Haven't been involved with them since about 1998/99. But I have bought a few of their books and tapes since then.
As Oldies said they attempted to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater.
I believe they did a decent job of correcting many erroneous TWI doctrines. I'd recommend those still "waybrained" to buy some their material that differs from what TWI teaches.
Here is a link to the various doctrines CES has corrected and their study materials they have for these subjects;
I don't agree 100% with everything they teach or promote, but IMO they have done the best job correcting error by TWI of all the offshoots I've looked at.
As for, if they are giving credit to Wierwille in their teachings, in my opinion yes, all their books list a bibliography that includes Wierwille's name.
But keep in mind that Wierwille had very few things that were his, so in many cases CES rightfully gives credit to Bullinger et.al. in their bibliographies.
my husband and I were involved with CES in the early years. We went to Momentous asparticipants, but never got involved beyond that.
At the same time, we were going to church, and even full-time staff members employed by a couple of different denominations for administrative/teaching positions.
The Momentous Training and our involvement with CES was honestly, just a footnote in our lives. No harm/no foul, and yeah it helped us, acutally.
Our experience is not everyones'. My husband and I both went through the way corps as well. My attitude is these things are just stepping stones along the way, and you make what you can of them. :)-->
I never went to it, and am glad I did not. I do like CES though.
Their tapes are not as good as they used to be, however.
What changed with Momentus and what has changed with the tapes? Is JL back? Very curious...
Georgio -- Like I said, I never did the *momentous thing*. I heard more negative comments about it than positive, so regardless of the fact that CES promoted it at one time, I refused to go.
The monthly tapes have taken on a less of a teaching quality that they had when they first started (imo), although the teaching aspect is still there fairly often. These days, one is more likely than not to find a bunch of sharings from the participants from a past retreat/ advance/ week-end get together/ or whatever it is called these days.
JAL (to my knowledge) is not a part of the administrative scene like he once was, but I could be mistaken about that. At least he is not mentioned as being on the current board of directors.
i dearly loved my earthly father he was my best friend i miss him daily
i did not fear him
if god is love him why should i fear him?
not trying to be wise but i don't get it
It's not an easy thing to get after having TWI teachings so deeply engrained in us.
2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Hbr 12:28 - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
1Pe 2:17 - Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
These are just a few verses, but the idea of fearing God is pretty clear in the NT. VPW did a great job of obscuring/removing it, because it didn't fit in his cistern (Theological System)
VPW took the Greek "phobos" (fear) and turned it into "reverence". Why? Cause he didn't understand it.
God is indeeed love, but he is also a consuming fire.
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dmiller
CES no longer endorses Momentus.
I never went to it, and am glad I did not. I do like CES though.
Their tapes are not as good as they used to be, however.
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Eagle
I believe CES is a great organization. I am thrilled to hear Momentus is history. They are busy building a Bible college and it takes a lot of work.
They do have some of the best research available.
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Georgio Jessio
What changed with Momentus and what has changed with the tapes? Is JL back? Very curious...
I was involved right when they started. (CFS I think?) My first thought was that it was too Way like and that JL, who I loved, was trying to be the next LCM.
So I walked away but keep tabs, much like I eye TWI, but with out the malice.
I was upset when I went to JL and asked him to officiate my wedding. his reply was that I needed to buy some tapes from him first. That turned me off, even though I felt he was actually being honest with me when he said marriage was for Christians and he wouldn't put his name on a marriage that he wasn't sure was Christian. Still felt like a sales pitch.
I was hurt and annoyed. I had known him my entire life, since I was a baby.
At this point I look at them as Way Light. They are the same only different. Same taste, fewer side effects.
The Momentus thing was another turn off.
Also I found I was going to the meetings for Way gossip and enlightenment on TWI. The teaching became irrelevant to me. It felt more like an ex TWI support group than fellowship. I needed that then more than I do now. The internet fills that support and curiosity now. I just can't bring myself to be involved with Way Light and its splintered brethren.
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CM
It was all about the money Jan.
Curious as to why you ask.
Not to find fault but curious
as to your reasons for asking.
Any reason at all is worth the questions.
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Jan
I'm asking because I did not know the answer..
Jan
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A la prochaine
Jan,
There were several thread started here on GS regarding the two things you enquire about.
A while back someone started a thread on Momentus and some posted of their experiences with that program. Didn't sound too positive to me with what I read.
As well, at one time, JAL came on here and posted a few times. It was interesting to read his take on things and how he viewed our thoughts here on GS.
I'm sure you could find some of these threads by doing a search on the words Momentus and JAL (he posted under his name).
Good luck... I love those words now!!
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Ham
Momentus, I never had anything to do with it, can't comment on that..
but I've read a LITTLE of CES's materials. To me, it looks like old TWI doctrine, polished and honed to "perfection".
Their book on One God did seem to handle a couple of controversial sections in the bible, a little bit better than vics assumptions. I have to give them some credit for original thinking.
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Ham
Plus they seem to tend towards documenting their source material, thoroughly. At least in the materials that I personally read. There's actually a real works cited section in the back of the stuff I read.
That's the second thing I would give them credit on, that they are academically honest.
More than you can say than for the "parent" organization.
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outandabout
I went to Momentous. Some one from my CES fellowship talked me into it because he was so sold on it.
I flipped out into a manic episode afterwards -my first in 12 years.
My husband is mad at Momentous to this day because of it. I didn't hold it against them, though.
But if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't have gone.
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oldiesman
Most of what they teach is TWI doctrine, with a few words changed here and there, but the same meanings.
some examples:
gathering together = rapture
mystery = sacred secret
Couple of items that stick out in my mind right now that are completely different from twi is the "personal prophecy" belief.
also teachings on premarital sex and adultery.
There could be others.
But the fact that their teachings are so harmonious with twi leads me to suspect/ponder that they might themselves be guilty of plagiarism?
They do teach a lot of twi stuff without mentioning twi.
is that plagiarism?
Don't know.
Otherwise, I think they've taken the baby and thrown out the bathwater, in large part.
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Ham
I dunno.. definitely not guilty of the gross plagiarism that is TWI..
I read their work on the hope. They basically said, "we read this, others say that, therefore we think the word 'rapture' is more appropriate.." or descriptive.
Interesting that they acknowledged folks with DIFFERENT beliefs. Pre-tribulation rapture doctrines, post-tribulation rapture doctrines..
Seems what TWIish was left in the couple of more recent works was better documented..
I have not exhaustively read all their works, so I can't have any more than a general opinion.
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oldiesman
What I'm referring to are the teachings that are the same thoughts/ideas/beliefs as twi, but without giving twi any written acknowledgement.
IF plagiarism is using the thoughts/beliefs/teachings of a group one learned from without giving the proper written acknowledgement, then it might be worth examining whether STFI is guilty of much the same thing twi did when it taught the teachings/beliefs/thoughts of those who VPW learned from, without giving proper written acknowledgement in his writings.
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Ham
I would agree. But I haven't exhaustively looked at their works like I did TWI's. I would, but I'm just too tired.. heh heh.
"We believe the Bible is accurate"
"We believe the Bible can be trusted"
kind of generic, almost could be considered public domain..
But any vey doctrine, and I am thinking of the supposed "original" work in the holy spirit field- if I don't see documentation listing Stiles, Bullinger, Leonard, Vaylee (sp?) and others, it WOULD kind of bother me.
You do make a good point, a copy of a copy of a copy is still: a copy.
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Ham
Especially the "use and usages" of holy spirit, in the form of an appendix.
RHST was 90% Bullinger's work. Dusted off and polished up perhaps, but you see Bullinger's unmistakable watermark in it.
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Steve Lortz
I was deeply involved with CES from the late-'80s to the mid-'90s. I helped edit "Dialogue". I helped edit some of their early books. I attended and was taken for a brief time by the Momentus training.
I love John, John and Mark as my brothers in Christ, and like them as people.
They try to distance themselves from their involvement with TWI. They have drawn up a list of ways in which they differ from the Way. However, there are some attitudes so deeply engrained from their Way daze that they aren't even aware of them. These attitudes of mind are so habitual that their correctness is taken for granted and they remain unquestioned.
Chief among these attitudes is the idea that we should NOT fear God. Wierwille went to remarkable lengths to "rightly divide" Romans 11:20 out of Paul's address to the Christians at Rome. After all, Wierwille taught that fear was believing in reverse, and always wrong.
According to Jeremiah 17:9 and Proverbs 21:2 the heart is deceitful above all thing because a person feels that every intention coming out of his own heart is right. None of us have the ability, in and of our selves, to distinguish between good and evil in the thoughts and intents of our own hearts.
According to Hebrews 4:12, the living Word of God is the critic of the thoughts and intents of our hearts. In order to recognize the evil in our own hearts, we must submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts to God's Word.
We submit the thoughts and intents of our hearts, these things that seem so right, so innocent, so pure, so clean to us, to God's criticism out of the fear of God. A person who doesn't fear God can't tell the difference in his own life between what is right and what is wrong.
When Wierwille got up on the main stage at the ROA and taught truth, he did it because it seemed in his heart the right thing to do. When he raped girls and women in his motorcoach, he did it because it seemed in his heart the right thing to do... and he did not fear God.
Psalm 36:1-2 (NIV) reads, "An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked:There is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin."
Wierwille flattered himself too much to be able to see his own sin because he did not fear God.
John, John and Mark have flattered themselves too much to detect or hate the damage Momentus did to their followers, because they do not fear God.
Any person who considers himself to be a post-TWI leader, who has not submitted himself to the truth regarding the fear of God is dangerous, not because he is intentionally out to hurt people, but because, without the fear of God, he can't tell the difference between good and evil in his own heart.
Love,
Steve
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Dilva
WOW Steve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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A la prochaine
Steve,
I was hoping you'd post here. I remember your posts from the last thread on Momentus...you made me sit up and take a look!
Thanks.
Wow, the stuff about fearing God...that's unbelievable stuff.
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Outin88!
I've spent some time with CES in the early years. Haven't been involved with them since about 1998/99. But I have bought a few of their books and tapes since then.
As Oldies said they attempted to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater.
I believe they did a decent job of correcting many erroneous TWI doctrines. I'd recommend those still "waybrained" to buy some their material that differs from what TWI teaches.
Here is a link to the various doctrines CES has corrected and their study materials they have for these subjects;
http://christianeducational.org/25diffTWI.htm
I don't agree 100% with everything they teach or promote, but IMO they have done the best job correcting error by TWI of all the offshoots I've looked at.
As for, if they are giving credit to Wierwille in their teachings, in my opinion yes, all their books list a bibliography that includes Wierwille's name.
But keep in mind that Wierwille had very few things that were his, so in many cases CES rightfully gives credit to Bullinger et.al. in their bibliographies.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
steve
i don't know how to say this but i will try
i dearly loved my earthly father he was my best friend i miss him daily
i did not fear him
if god is love him why should i fear him?
not trying to be wise but i don't get it
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oldiesman
I agree Cool.
I think we ought to be able to know how to live and do the right thing, without "fearing" God in the process.
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ex10
my husband and I were involved with CES in the early years. We went to Momentous asparticipants, but never got involved beyond that.
At the same time, we were going to church, and even full-time staff members employed by a couple of different denominations for administrative/teaching positions.
The Momentous Training and our involvement with CES was honestly, just a footnote in our lives. No harm/no foul, and yeah it helped us, acutally.
Our experience is not everyones'. My husband and I both went through the way corps as well. My attitude is these things are just stepping stones along the way, and you make what you can of them.
:)-->
After all, Jesus is Lord.
Nobody else.
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dmiller
Georgio -- Like I said, I never did the *momentous thing*. I heard more negative comments about it than positive, so regardless of the fact that CES promoted it at one time, I refused to go.
The monthly tapes have taken on a less of a teaching quality that they had when they first started (imo), although the teaching aspect is still there fairly often. These days, one is more likely than not to find a bunch of sharings from the participants from a past retreat/ advance/ week-end get together/ or whatever it is called these days.
JAL (to my knowledge) is not a part of the administrative scene like he once was, but I could be mistaken about that. At least he is not mentioned as being on the current board of directors.
David
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dmiller
Steve L. --- Excellent post!!!
David
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Goey
It's not an easy thing to get after having TWI teachings so deeply engrained in us.
2Cr 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Hbr 12:28 - Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
1Pe 2:17 - Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
These are just a few verses, but the idea of fearing God is pretty clear in the NT. VPW did a great job of obscuring/removing it, because it didn't fit in his cistern (Theological System)
VPW took the Greek "phobos" (fear) and turned it into "reverence". Why? Cause he didn't understand it.
God is indeeed love, but he is also a consuming fire.
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