We have Idlewild Baptist church here which just opened its gleaming new $75 million facility on 143 acres to accommodate its thriving membership which has grown from 350 to 10,000 in 20 years. It is state of the art from top to bottom including a full orchestra and a 200 member choir. They have terrific youth programs, singles programs, and about anything else you can imagine. It is lively, exciting and open, and yes, they teach hot bible. (By the way I am not a member of Idlewild.)
Why not?
Just looking at the numbers alone, they must be doing something right. :lol:
Hey Nato! You were in Orlando just as I was getting involved. In fact, I believe I took PFAL at the house where you were staying. You're an incredible artist, right? ;)
TWI always said that they had the corner market on the Truth and that churches weren't teaching anything near what TWI was teaching, much less with the accuracy. THEN they told us there was nothing better out there.
After so much abuse, control and micro-managing of one's life and, as Bramble said, so much conflicting teaching vs. doctrine vs. practice your head would feel like it was spinning worse than that kid in The Exorcist. Yelling and spitting at people is showing them love? Putting people on probation and marking & avoiding people is the "godly" thing to do? Giving minimum 15% of your income to TWI was what the spiritually mature do - the really top notch give 18% or everything left after paying bills.
Hmmmmm.....doctrine or practice running people off? It seems as though the doctrine lead to the practices that ran people off. But that's just my opinion.
We always took their word that "there's nothing better out there" - The churches mentioned here and quite a few in my area are proof that there is A LOT that's A LOT BETTER out there. If people would only look and not go on preconceived notions or stop looking if the first couple of churches DON'T seem to be better....in my opinion there's nothing WORSE out there, especially since Moonies aren't selling flowers in the local airport anymore. :D
Hey Nato! You were in Orlando just as I was getting involved. In fact, I believe I took PFAL at the house where you were staying. You're an incredible artist, right? ;)
Wow! I was in Orlando in 1994-1995. I was all signed up to go WOW that year, when the cancelled the program and began the homo inquisition. They suggested that we could contact limb coordinators and still go move the Word somewhere, just not on a program. Since I'd cancelled my plans and ignored my acceptance into an art school in New York, I took that advice. Some friends (the Kish family), suggested Florida and put me in touch with John Shroyer. He hooked me up with some believers in Orlando, namely a Corp guy named Jon Touchstone and an apprentice Corp. We were soon set up on a non-program program of sorts and I had a fun, but very hard and confusing year. I had at the beginning planned on going WOW at the next ROA, assuming of course there was a program. I was kind of changing my mind near the end of the year, but I remember a lot of pressure to "keep my commitment" and go on the program (Way Disciple we later learned). I did indeed go Way Disciple, and had one of the most unpleasant six months of my life.
And to tie it back into the topic of this thread, not one person that we "won to the Word" is still with TWI. And few of my peers from either Orlando or the Way Dicsiple program are either. In fact, from 1995-2001, I saw so many people that I was friends with leave, that I no longer let it bother me. It used to really hurt when a close firend left, but it started happening so frequently that I stopped worrying about it. I was "determined to stand." Whatever.
So yeah, we should PM a little bit and catch up! As in, who the heck are you? :) Very cool!
I understand that Harve was instructed by rr to send the letter but it was not inspected prior to being posted. Apparently someone wanted to try & get it under the fox radar. Then, afterwards, it was felt that a move from hq might be in order for some people. I know that the H*rn*y's wanted to change, so he arranged to get his certifications so he could work full time while co-ordinatingthe Dayton area. The S**c*ws are also doing the same. Some out east have full time jobs and did not want to endure assignment changes while the kids are still in school.
I just find it very ironic, when they are so set on trying to keep people around that the verse on their poster this year is John 8: 32 " And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free ". I wonder how many wayfers will heed that verse & wise up to what is REALLY going on at Way World.
Even local churches do better. We have Idlewild Baptist church here which just opened its gleaming new $75 million facility on 143 acres to accommodate its thriving membership which has grown from 350 to 10,000 in 20 years. It is state of the art from top to bottom including a full orchestra and a 200 member choir. They have terrific youth programs, singles programs, and about anything else you can imagine. It is lively, exciting and open, and yes, they teach hot bible. (By the way I am not a member of Idlewild.)
John R
Tampa, FL
(Former member / Corps grad for over 25 years until 2000 when kicked out by Gxilxs, Moneyhands and Rozilla)
Hard for me to imagine a "local" church with a $75 mil complex. Good grief. Is that success? I hope that is not the standard. Maybe they got it all going on, but that's a lot of money to not tempt a few folks to be motiviated by greed. The most successful churches in my mind are in small towns where people know and help each other. Even then there is a lot of politics ... but surely these huge churches are not the standard ... I hope. 143 acres ... how many cows do they have? LOL 10,000 people, so they do rock of ages every week? The rock was on what, 40 acres?
I am certainly not defending TWI here, just making a note about sanity, maybe :) So each person contributes $7500 for the campus. Maybe that is reasonable, but then there are on going operations ... WOW ... maybe I'm just getting old B)
Hard for me to imagine a "local" church with a $75 mil complex. Good grief. Is that success? I hope that is not the standard. Maybe they got it all going on, but that's a lot of money to not tempt a few folks to be motiviated by greed. The most successful churches in my mind are in small towns where people know and help each other.
Hey there Bill.
Had to laugh when I thought of the comparision between the 75 mil complex, and the little country church. :)
I used to work with a guy back in southern Indiana (solid baptist) who didn't believe that a church should even have a kitchen in it. To him it was a place of worship, and should be used for nothing else.
He and I worked the 3rd shift at Otis Elevator, and had time to talk about a lot of things. He almost had me convinced about the *kitchen in the church* thing when I found out -----
He also did not believe that homes should have bathrooms!
He had a fully functional (plumbing-heating-and-all) toilet in an outhouse outside of his house, but refused to install it in his house.
Needless to say -- he lost me once and for all, when I found that out. :D
I'm guessing there is a happy medium (or is it median??) between 75 mil and the little country church.
But operated correctly, I'm thinking both can produce results and certainly twi has been at both ends of the spectrum. They've *been there and done that*, and this is reminding me of one of those Indiana Jone's movies (The Last Crusade?) where it comes time to chose from a variety of cups to find the the Holy Grail.
Of all the cups proffered, the *villian* chooses the one elaborately encrusted with precious gems instead of the simple cups, and dies.
"Most churches are proud of their numbers and make this information available to its members.
Even local churches do better. We have Idlewild Baptist church here which just opened its gleaming new $75 million facility on 143 acres to accommodate its thriving membership which has grown from 350 to 10,000 in 20 years. It is state of the art from top to bottom including a full orchestra and a 200 member choir. They have terrific youth programs, singles programs, and about anything else you can imagine. It is lively, exciting and open, and yes, they teach hot bible. (By the way I am not a member of Idlewild.)
Compare that to TWI which has supposedly reached out to the world for over 50 years. Little old local Idlewild is much larger and alive. And that's just ONE of the thriving congregations here.
It's sweeping the nation with Pastor Joel Osteen, no condemnation, no legalistic bs just pure Word, building people up with the Love of God and his new book, "Your Best Life Now" has been #1 on the Best Seller list (secular) for almost a year. He's awesome. A trinitarian but his principals are the Word and they still work and he loves God. He fills the convention centers for days whereever he goes.
FYI The Way II is on it's way out. There will be another MASS EXODUS in the spring. Some are just biding their time and furthermore the legalism is still rampant, just more subtle. Many Corps, still lording over God's heritage still think they are one step down from the throne of God. BARF. When they get out on the field some have awakened. But God's vengence is just and some will just have to learn the hard way.
When the doors close, I wonder what the market is for a property like that with it's own cemetary. SAD, SAD
This church has a massive parking lot. It is in and area with acreage around it. It is in a wealthy zip code with many millionaires and a few professional athletes that go there as well. Is it too big? Seems a bit ostentacious to me, but on the other hand I have learned to keep an open mind. They have a lot of good families there and good people. THey consider themselves a community. I think that's cool. One of my single employees is an enthusiastic member and it is the highlight of his life. He is a honest hardworking employee and I know it has made a difference in his life.
I have know of some humble county churches that were horrible and filled with sin and hypocrisy and evil people behind the scenes in spite of the bible verses that were spoken. (I was raised in a rural area.) Yet others I'm sure are outstanding. Large or small can be successful or failures.
VPW used to tell us "Kids, the only reason for the existence of our ministry is because the churches are not doing their job."
That was decades ago. Now it appears as if the churches have stepped up to the plate and TWI has struck out.
I have know of some humble county churches that were horrible and filled with sin and hypocrisy and evil people behind the scenes in spite of the bible verses that were spoken. (I was raised in a rural area.) Yet others I'm sure are outstanding. Large or small can be successful or failures.
VPW used to tell us "Kids, the only reason for the existence of our ministry is because the churches are not doing their job."
That was decades ago. Now it appears as if the churches have stepped up to the plate and TWI has struck out.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
Good point about rural churches ... I am rural now, but don't go to any church. I do know of some dishonest people that attend faithfully though. LOL I guess that is true anywhere. Upon further review, one problem with a rural church is they often can't afford even a full time pastor, and may end up with positions filled by folks more motivated by ego than a desire to help. My ideal little rural church may not even exist, and maybe a huge church funded by multi millionaires can provide a ROA type gathering that would have a lot to offer.
Religion of all shapes and sizes and locations can be a breeding ground for weakness....people feed off of being trampled by religion......never being good enough, which to me is what God not about!!!
A little story about a small town Church- I had the pleasure of going to a small town church a few years ago..I had not been in a church for 30 something years..It was awakening..this little church served for the most part the needs of the whole town of maybe 20,000. They had a youth minister, teen advances, mens advances and other activities...I once talked to the minister after his service and we started talking about wild mushrooms and Asparagas..In the summer and fall he took time off with his wife to go harvest what God gave us....He came over one day with a huge basket of his pickings to share with me.....and you know what......we were on the brink of having a tornado..the warnings were going off on tv and echoing from from towers..we had 5 tornadoes in that area.....and he showed up at my door.......I was dumbfounded......I didnt want him to leave my house..I was concerned...but he had work to do..so off he went......smilling, knowing he was covered by God..that one action spoke volumes to my heart.....somewhere he noted my love for asparagas and mushrooms in the midst of all the cares he had to attend to....His services were dynamic in all its simplicity....I guess, God can be there whenever we seek him....its not in the church or the org.......
I still attend a small offshoot...I came out of a different administration of TWI but also had roots in the early 70's and early 80's and a decade of the 90's,so needleless to say, Im a peice of work...:)....I agree that God words is reaching more today and I agree with Dr.'s saying that churches were not doing the work in those times.I also watch the current tv ministries....I enjoy Joyce Myers, Kenneth Copeland..and even Dr. Scott....Im glad of there time to teach. I enjoy the simpleness now and have grown to appreciate I dont need all the fluffiness........i
Disasters seem to bring people together in one accord too...the big churches seem to be on the rise..I dont know how they do it other than proving simple truths and keeping the dogma of religion out.
I am now a member of a large for the town church. Differant than above.
Every church is differant. Some teach and preach the word of God to spread the kingdom. Some are great social gathering places to spread themselves. Some are just dead.
One church was on fire for God. The church never seem'd to grow because it was always sending out members. Church averaged 60 a week. I can think of 4 men who have their own churchs now.
One church who brough in tons of money but managed to give it all to less fortunate people and churchs.
There is a church for everyone. Economics, race, social standing, politics all play into what church a person likes.
My thought and what I've done is find a local church where God is present and working. Then I take off the coat, roll up the sleeves and get busy.
Don't look at the green grass. That just means money is spent on the lawn. Look where they spend the money and that is where their heart is. Funny it works the same way with us.
it would be interesting to see how they all went bye bye
at one point while i was in 1984 or so they claimed to have 100,000
pfal class grads
of those maybe 1/2 or 50,000 were still involved at one level or another
then in 1985 dr w. falls asleep (sorry twi brain haters i still think that's a nice way to say croaks)
this event may or may not have affected the standing numbers significantly
i was of the opinion that life for almost everybody would go on pretty much as it did before
by that i mean yes dr w will be missed but God is still on the throne and
His word is still the same and Jesus the risen Christ is still savior of mankind
so that was mid-1985
then late-1985-early-1986 rolls around and you start to hear things like
"we better pray for our BOT and the ministry, etc. etc."
"why?" asks the seeker.
"oh, it's not really the kind of thing that should be talked about,
lock box, cover with silence, don't tell all you know (my favorite!),
best not to say things like this in the senses realm so the devil can use it against us"
ok ok so we don't say nuttin' to the non-way corps followers about
JOHN SCHOENHEIT'S ADULTERY AND FORNICATION RESEARCH PAPER
got it got it mum's da word!
a few people go bye bye after that fiasco cutting the total of standing grads to maybe 25,000 to 30,000 or so
also in 1986 the passing of the patriarch gets read
here i think all this did was lay some guilt trip on the BOT (and other people who were involved at a level way above going to twig and things)
i mean put yourself in their shoes
you follow a man's ministry for a good chunk of your life
(hell in Don W's case, your whole life)
you think you're doing good
then virtually right after the ministry's founder dies
you get blamed by someone for killing him!
it's enough to bum out anyone!
more people gonzo!
so its 1987-1988 and out of our original estimated 50,000 standing followers we've got about 20,000 left
hmm let's see now
how can we kick some more out the door?
1989 big rift between the BOT and the author of POP
uh oh now it's stand with me (in writing) or see ya!
thousands more vote with their feet (this is the group i was in, sort of)
ok now we're down to 5,000 to 8,000 standing grads
what next?
1989 through 1994
let's start taking complete control of people's lives!
well, what if someone complains?
no sweat! we just malign their character and classify them as people who should be Marked and avoided!
pretty good policy for making people disappear
but not quite as good as
1995's
The Great Homosexual Purge
sorry folks
we gotta cancel the rock of ages
too many people having sex
(and not letting ME in on it)
but hey don't blame me
you gotta blame the Homo's
the ministry's crawlin' with 'em!!!
never mind how it happened, it just did
so from now on forget about spiritual deliverance
or helping someone to escape from homosexuality
we just gotta get rid of 'em!
and their family
and their friends
and anyone who says that some gay people aren't so bad
ok boss! we're with ya! we'll smoke'em outta here
just one thing, how can we tell if a person is one of THEM?
that's easy! just use your GENUINE SPIRITUAL SUSPICION
oh you mean GAY-DAR!! got it!!
both the M&A and Homo purge programs are working wonders
for erasing people from the mailing list
if only things could go a little faster
late 1990's
enter The INTERNUT!
trancechat then Waydale and now Greasespot Cafe
tipping people off about TWI now
before even some of the people who are in TWI know
so the Lawsuits,
the Martindale resignation,
the exodus of other prominent leaders,
and other curious happenings
can not be swept under the rug as easily as they once were
so maybe this is why over 95% of the people who would have admittedly taken a bullet for either dr.w or lcm or both now completly MARK & AVOID anything having to with TWI
if i could only make my creditors disappear that fast!!!
Just remember to "turn out the lights" when the room's totally empty..ya know they COULD rent out the auditorium to raise some $$$$ & go back to the old BRC...it'll seat a few hundred..with l/l0th the heating bill
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oldiesman
Just looking at the numbers alone, they must be doing something right. :lol:
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Belle
Hey Nato! You were in Orlando just as I was getting involved. In fact, I believe I took PFAL at the house where you were staying. You're an incredible artist, right? ;)
TWI always said that they had the corner market on the Truth and that churches weren't teaching anything near what TWI was teaching, much less with the accuracy. THEN they told us there was nothing better out there.
After so much abuse, control and micro-managing of one's life and, as Bramble said, so much conflicting teaching vs. doctrine vs. practice your head would feel like it was spinning worse than that kid in The Exorcist. Yelling and spitting at people is showing them love? Putting people on probation and marking & avoiding people is the "godly" thing to do? Giving minimum 15% of your income to TWI was what the spiritually mature do - the really top notch give 18% or everything left after paying bills.
Hmmmmm.....doctrine or practice running people off? It seems as though the doctrine lead to the practices that ran people off. But that's just my opinion.
We always took their word that "there's nothing better out there" - The churches mentioned here and quite a few in my area are proof that there is A LOT that's A LOT BETTER out there. If people would only look and not go on preconceived notions or stop looking if the first couple of churches DON'T seem to be better....in my opinion there's nothing WORSE out there, especially since Moonies aren't selling flowers in the local airport anymore. :D
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
not to derail this thread but
how many people did you know that didn't pay bills because they abs too much??
i lived that one for a while!
]
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Nato
Wow! I was in Orlando in 1994-1995. I was all signed up to go WOW that year, when the cancelled the program and began the homo inquisition. They suggested that we could contact limb coordinators and still go move the Word somewhere, just not on a program. Since I'd cancelled my plans and ignored my acceptance into an art school in New York, I took that advice. Some friends (the Kish family), suggested Florida and put me in touch with John Shroyer. He hooked me up with some believers in Orlando, namely a Corp guy named Jon Touchstone and an apprentice Corp. We were soon set up on a non-program program of sorts and I had a fun, but very hard and confusing year. I had at the beginning planned on going WOW at the next ROA, assuming of course there was a program. I was kind of changing my mind near the end of the year, but I remember a lot of pressure to "keep my commitment" and go on the program (Way Disciple we later learned). I did indeed go Way Disciple, and had one of the most unpleasant six months of my life.
And to tie it back into the topic of this thread, not one person that we "won to the Word" is still with TWI. And few of my peers from either Orlando or the Way Dicsiple program are either. In fact, from 1995-2001, I saw so many people that I was friends with leave, that I no longer let it bother me. It used to really hurt when a close firend left, but it started happening so frequently that I stopped worrying about it. I was "determined to stand." Whatever.
So yeah, we should PM a little bit and catch up! As in, who the heck are you? :) Very cool!
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railroader
I understand that Harve was instructed by rr to send the letter but it was not inspected prior to being posted. Apparently someone wanted to try & get it under the fox radar. Then, afterwards, it was felt that a move from hq might be in order for some people. I know that the H*rn*y's wanted to change, so he arranged to get his certifications so he could work full time while co-ordinatingthe Dayton area. The S**c*ws are also doing the same. Some out east have full time jobs and did not want to endure assignment changes while the kids are still in school.
I just find it very ironic, when they are so set on trying to keep people around that the verse on their poster this year is John 8: 32 " And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free ". I wonder how many wayfers will heed that verse & wise up to what is REALLY going on at Way World.
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rhino
Hard for me to imagine a "local" church with a $75 mil complex. Good grief. Is that success? I hope that is not the standard. Maybe they got it all going on, but that's a lot of money to not tempt a few folks to be motiviated by greed. The most successful churches in my mind are in small towns where people know and help each other. Even then there is a lot of politics ... but surely these huge churches are not the standard ... I hope. 143 acres ... how many cows do they have? LOL 10,000 people, so they do rock of ages every week? The rock was on what, 40 acres?
I am certainly not defending TWI here, just making a note about sanity, maybe :) So each person contributes $7500 for the campus. Maybe that is reasonable, but then there are on going operations ... WOW ... maybe I'm just getting old B)
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dmiller
Hey there Bill.
Had to laugh when I thought of the comparision between the 75 mil complex, and the little country church. :)
I used to work with a guy back in southern Indiana (solid baptist) who didn't believe that a church should even have a kitchen in it. To him it was a place of worship, and should be used for nothing else.
He and I worked the 3rd shift at Otis Elevator, and had time to talk about a lot of things. He almost had me convinced about the *kitchen in the church* thing when I found out -----
He also did not believe that homes should have bathrooms!
He had a fully functional (plumbing-heating-and-all) toilet in an outhouse outside of his house, but refused to install it in his house.
Needless to say -- he lost me once and for all, when I found that out. :D
I'm guessing there is a happy medium (or is it median??) between 75 mil and the little country church.
But operated correctly, I'm thinking both can produce results and certainly twi has been at both ends of the spectrum. They've *been there and done that*, and this is reminding me of one of those Indiana Jone's movies (The Last Crusade?) where it comes time to chose from a variety of cups to find the the Holy Grail.
Of all the cups proffered, the *villian* chooses the one elaborately encrusted with precious gems instead of the simple cups, and dies.
The protector of the cups said "He chose poorly".
I can't think of a better epitath for twi.
They chose poorly
David
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dmiller
And (HA!) -- just thought of this ---
I never did ask him if they had bathrooms in his church!! :D
David
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LornaDoone
"Most churches are proud of their numbers and make this information available to its members.
Even local churches do better. We have Idlewild Baptist church here which just opened its gleaming new $75 million facility on 143 acres to accommodate its thriving membership which has grown from 350 to 10,000 in 20 years. It is state of the art from top to bottom including a full orchestra and a 200 member choir. They have terrific youth programs, singles programs, and about anything else you can imagine. It is lively, exciting and open, and yes, they teach hot bible. (By the way I am not a member of Idlewild.)
Compare that to TWI which has supposedly reached out to the world for over 50 years. Little old local Idlewild is much larger and alive. And that's just ONE of the thriving congregations here.
http://www.idlewild.org
http://www.theway.org"
You are absolutely correct John & check out this website.
http://www.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer
It's sweeping the nation with Pastor Joel Osteen, no condemnation, no legalistic bs just pure Word, building people up with the Love of God and his new book, "Your Best Life Now" has been #1 on the Best Seller list (secular) for almost a year. He's awesome. A trinitarian but his principals are the Word and they still work and he loves God. He fills the convention centers for days whereever he goes.
FYI The Way II is on it's way out. There will be another MASS EXODUS in the spring. Some are just biding their time and furthermore the legalism is still rampant, just more subtle. Many Corps, still lording over God's heritage still think they are one step down from the throne of God. BARF. When they get out on the field some have awakened. But God's vengence is just and some will just have to learn the hard way.
When the doors close, I wonder what the market is for a property like that with it's own cemetary. SAD, SAD
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outandabout
Why is there going to be an exodus in the spring?
Just wondering.
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Belle
That's when the kids get out of school?
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igotout
Rhino,
This church has a massive parking lot. It is in and area with acreage around it. It is in a wealthy zip code with many millionaires and a few professional athletes that go there as well. Is it too big? Seems a bit ostentacious to me, but on the other hand I have learned to keep an open mind. They have a lot of good families there and good people. THey consider themselves a community. I think that's cool. One of my single employees is an enthusiastic member and it is the highlight of his life. He is a honest hardworking employee and I know it has made a difference in his life.
I have know of some humble county churches that were horrible and filled with sin and hypocrisy and evil people behind the scenes in spite of the bible verses that were spoken. (I was raised in a rural area.) Yet others I'm sure are outstanding. Large or small can be successful or failures.
VPW used to tell us "Kids, the only reason for the existence of our ministry is because the churches are not doing their job."
That was decades ago. Now it appears as if the churches have stepped up to the plate and TWI has struck out.
John Richeson
Tampa, FL
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rhino
Good point about rural churches ... I am rural now, but don't go to any church. I do know of some dishonest people that attend faithfully though. LOL I guess that is true anywhere. Upon further review, one problem with a rural church is they often can't afford even a full time pastor, and may end up with positions filled by folks more motivated by ego than a desire to help. My ideal little rural church may not even exist, and maybe a huge church funded by multi millionaires can provide a ROA type gathering that would have a lot to offer.
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likeaneagle
Religion of all shapes and sizes and locations can be a breeding ground for weakness....people feed off of being trampled by religion......never being good enough, which to me is what God not about!!!
A little story about a small town Church- I had the pleasure of going to a small town church a few years ago..I had not been in a church for 30 something years..It was awakening..this little church served for the most part the needs of the whole town of maybe 20,000. They had a youth minister, teen advances, mens advances and other activities...I once talked to the minister after his service and we started talking about wild mushrooms and Asparagas..In the summer and fall he took time off with his wife to go harvest what God gave us....He came over one day with a huge basket of his pickings to share with me.....and you know what......we were on the brink of having a tornado..the warnings were going off on tv and echoing from from towers..we had 5 tornadoes in that area.....and he showed up at my door.......I was dumbfounded......I didnt want him to leave my house..I was concerned...but he had work to do..so off he went......smilling, knowing he was covered by God..that one action spoke volumes to my heart.....somewhere he noted my love for asparagas and mushrooms in the midst of all the cares he had to attend to....His services were dynamic in all its simplicity....I guess, God can be there whenever we seek him....its not in the church or the org.......
I still attend a small offshoot...I came out of a different administration of TWI but also had roots in the early 70's and early 80's and a decade of the 90's,so needleless to say, Im a peice of work...:)....I agree that God words is reaching more today and I agree with Dr.'s saying that churches were not doing the work in those times.I also watch the current tv ministries....I enjoy Joyce Myers, Kenneth Copeland..and even Dr. Scott....Im glad of there time to teach. I enjoy the simpleness now and have grown to appreciate I dont need all the fluffiness........i
Disasters seem to bring people together in one accord too...the big churches seem to be on the rise..I dont know how they do it other than proving simple truths and keeping the dogma of religion out.
anyway, sorry for the long post...
God's love never fails.
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ex70sHouston
Don't judge a book by its cover.
I have been a member of a small urban church.
I was a member of TWI.
I was a member of a large urban church.
I was a member of a medium size suburban church.
I was a member of a large for the town church.
I was a member of a mission from that church.
I am now a member of a large for the town church. Differant than above.
Every church is differant. Some teach and preach the word of God to spread the kingdom. Some are great social gathering places to spread themselves. Some are just dead.
One church was on fire for God. The church never seem'd to grow because it was always sending out members. Church averaged 60 a week. I can think of 4 men who have their own churchs now.
One church who brough in tons of money but managed to give it all to less fortunate people and churchs.
There is a church for everyone. Economics, race, social standing, politics all play into what church a person likes.
My thought and what I've done is find a local church where God is present and working. Then I take off the coat, roll up the sleeves and get busy.
Don't look at the green grass. That just means money is spent on the lawn. Look where they spend the money and that is where their heart is. Funny it works the same way with us.
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Catcup
The Way International has actually become the lifeless "stick" they warn against.
It is they who are cut off from the land of the living.
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likeaneagle
very good Catchup!!
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ljn698
for those of us interested in numbers
it would be interesting to see how they all went bye bye
at one point while i was in 1984 or so they claimed to have 100,000
pfal class grads
of those maybe 1/2 or 50,000 were still involved at one level or another
then in 1985 dr w. falls asleep (sorry twi brain haters i still think that's a nice way to say croaks)
this event may or may not have affected the standing numbers significantly
i was of the opinion that life for almost everybody would go on pretty much as it did before
by that i mean yes dr w will be missed but God is still on the throne and
His word is still the same and Jesus the risen Christ is still savior of mankind
so that was mid-1985
then late-1985-early-1986 rolls around and you start to hear things like
"we better pray for our BOT and the ministry, etc. etc."
"why?" asks the seeker.
"oh, it's not really the kind of thing that should be talked about,
lock box, cover with silence, don't tell all you know (my favorite!),
best not to say things like this in the senses realm so the devil can use it against us"
ok ok so we don't say nuttin' to the non-way corps followers about
JOHN SCHOENHEIT'S ADULTERY AND FORNICATION RESEARCH PAPER
got it got it mum's da word!
a few people go bye bye after that fiasco cutting the total of standing grads to maybe 25,000 to 30,000 or so
also in 1986 the passing of the patriarch gets read
here i think all this did was lay some guilt trip on the BOT (and other people who were involved at a level way above going to twig and things)
i mean put yourself in their shoes
you follow a man's ministry for a good chunk of your life
(hell in Don W's case, your whole life)
you think you're doing good
then virtually right after the ministry's founder dies
you get blamed by someone for killing him!
it's enough to bum out anyone!
more people gonzo!
so its 1987-1988 and out of our original estimated 50,000 standing followers we've got about 20,000 left
hmm let's see now
how can we kick some more out the door?
1989 big rift between the BOT and the author of POP
uh oh now it's stand with me (in writing) or see ya!
thousands more vote with their feet (this is the group i was in, sort of)
ok now we're down to 5,000 to 8,000 standing grads
what next?
1989 through 1994
let's start taking complete control of people's lives!
well, what if someone complains?
no sweat! we just malign their character and classify them as people who should be Marked and avoided!
pretty good policy for making people disappear
but not quite as good as
1995's
The Great Homosexual Purge
sorry folks
we gotta cancel the rock of ages
too many people having sex
(and not letting ME in on it)
but hey don't blame me
you gotta blame the Homo's
the ministry's crawlin' with 'em!!!
never mind how it happened, it just did
so from now on forget about spiritual deliverance
or helping someone to escape from homosexuality
we just gotta get rid of 'em!
and their family
and their friends
and anyone who says that some gay people aren't so bad
ok boss! we're with ya! we'll smoke'em outta here
just one thing, how can we tell if a person is one of THEM?
that's easy! just use your GENUINE SPIRITUAL SUSPICION
oh you mean GAY-DAR!! got it!!
both the M&A and Homo purge programs are working wonders
for erasing people from the mailing list
if only things could go a little faster
late 1990's
enter The INTERNUT!
trancechat then Waydale and now Greasespot Cafe
tipping people off about TWI now
before even some of the people who are in TWI know
so the Lawsuits,
the Martindale resignation,
the exodus of other prominent leaders,
and other curious happenings
can not be swept under the rug as easily as they once were
so maybe this is why over 95% of the people who would have admittedly taken a bullet for either dr.w or lcm or both now completly MARK & AVOID anything having to with TWI
if i could only make my creditors disappear that fast!!!
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Second James
Just remember to "turn out the lights" when the room's totally empty..ya know they COULD rent out the auditorium to raise some $$$$ & go back to the old BRC...it'll seat a few hundred..with l/l0th the heating bill
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