Do 'Spin-Off' Participants See Their Groups As Continuations of 'The Ministry'?

[Oakspear]

Okay, many of us believed at one time that we were in a 'ministry' that was God's primary plan for getting his 'Word' out to the masses.

Obviously, if we have left The Way, we no longer believe that the current organization is part of God's plan. Some of us have joined churches, or have our own spirituality independent of any organization. However, quite a few ex-wayfers, including GS posters, belong to groups that are run by former TWI leaders, or incorporate TWI/PFAL doctrines, or even use the PFAL class itself.

Who here among 'splinter' participants believes that the organization that they are now part of is a continuation of Wierwille's 'ministry'?

Edited December 18, 2005 by Oakspear

[johniam]

quote: Do 'Spin-Off' Participants See Their Groups As Continuations of 'The Ministry'?, or, 'Is Your Splinter God's Plan For Moving the Word?

I believe both TWI and the organization I'm currently with are continuations of the body of Christ. Right before Jesus ascended he said to 12 people..."Ye shall be witnesses unto me in Judea and Jerusalem, and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." Now none of those 12 ever made it to the uttermost parts of the earth, so Jesus was addressing them as members of the body of Christ as opposed to mortal beings whose organization would be around for 40 yrs max.

But churches are also part of the body of Christ (I'll give them the benefit of the doubt). LCM got so extreme in his loyalty to TWI that he once said that Christians who distribute bibles in Russia or China were doing more harm than good because without the accurate knowledge of the word we had those people wouldn't know what to do with their bibles, or something to that effect. Like the spirit of God is somehow shut down without TWI signing off on it. LOL.

As far as TWI or any other Christian group being "God's primary plan to take his word over the world" goes, I'm quite willing to let God decide that and just try to go about my business. We were kinda stupid to buy into that line of thinking. All it did was alienate us from church people.

[Lifted Up]

Yea, there is a good difference between being part of God's plan and being God's only plan.

[J0nny Ling0]

I am not connected with any splinter group. I have friends who are, and we communicate all the time. But, I have no "ministry" anymore. I am connected with an old friend, a gal who has been going through some very trying times, and I have been teaching her what I know about God's love for us, His forgiveness through Jesus Christ our lord, and about trusting the promises of God. And, she has been devouring it. I'd love for her to be able to fellowship with likeminded believers, but, I would surely hate to see her fall into the hands of some really religious bunch that gets all legalistic and that. And so, I haven't tried to direct her toward any group of people. I will just have to trust God that whatever I may be doing to help her will be enough to help her to pray and believe God to direct her to wherever He wants her to be. And so, if this is a continuation of "a ministry", then this is all I am about these days..

JL

[Rejoice]

I think some of them do....it seems many are teaching what VPW taught, without all the ugly side. I think that is true of CFF.

I think to be really honest, they should study what mainstream Christianity truly teach for comparison, rather than believing what we were told that mainstream Christianity teaches.

We'd probably find that we have more similarities on the important stuff than we realize.

[dmiller]

Who here among 'splinter' participants believes that the organization that they are now part of is a continuation of Wierwille's 'ministry'?

Not I.

Both John and Lifted made the distinction of being part of the plan,

rather than being the plan.

Lcm, and now Rosie are the one's continuing docvic's 'ministry'.

Not the off-shoots or other groups we've found since departing twi.

[Allan]

Myself and family are continuing where we left off with twi.Living, moving, teaching Gods' Word.

Establishing a ministry is THE hardest thing we ever did and wouldn't take it on again with any kind of willingness.

What makes it worthwhile is the awesome bunch of people we get to surround ourselves with, many of whom have come from 'backslidden' and 'inactive' ...Mormon term... backgrounds.

The Word we have held onto 'turns them on again' when they hear it and get to experience it.

Our worship band are mostly self taught, we encourage lifting of hands in service, it's great to hear shouts of amens and hallelujahs, life is great.

As for the question of checking out other churches and doctrines, Selina and I did all that when we left twi but there was nothing that did anything for us and as I said before, most of the people involved in our church have come from various denominational backgrounds.

[moony3424]

Allan

Your church sounds like wonderful and spirit-filled church!

[diazbro]

I have always viewed the various splinter groups as excellent decompression chambers for those seeking a cushioned transition from TWI into "normal life". The splinter can help provide something of a support community though its clear that some remain and are happy to do so. On the other hand my own (admittedly informal) survey of people I've know who have attended splinters reveals that most eventually leave or drastically diminish the time spent with a local splinter. Obviously some people like to stay so perhaps they can contribute their point of view as to why its appealing.

[Ron G.]

HeavenIsLoudlyLaudedByIndividualsLookingLikeYou is the splinter group started here in the Ozarks by His Royal Holiness, The Overly Rev. Odell Fiscus Foghorn.

Now you might not realize it, but this is the one true red thread coming down to us from the first century believers.

If you want to know more, we have a class available called the Piously Interesting Socially Stimulating and Edifying Diatribe by Odell Fiscus Foghorn.

You just can't be a genuine H.I.L.L.B.I.L.L.Y. until you pay your cash and get P.I.S.S.E.D. O.F.F.!!

[Eagle]

My wife and I are much happier since joining a church. No pressure, or hardly any. No condemnation. We are making friends. We are getting closer to God and prayers are getting answered, regardless of what I was taught in old TWI II.

I don't know too much what is being taught about the church in TWI III. I am out of sources. All of them were from TWI II or leftover from that time with a couple who left during the lawsuits presided under Rosalie. The LCM/TWI II lawsuits, that is.

Eagle

[Oakspear]

I would imagine the difference would be in whether an offshoot participant views the TWI of Wierwille's day as a godly ministry and PFAL as the best foundational teaching available.

Of course, many of us have reassessed our earlier opinion of Wierwille & PFAL, but many still retain the positive view of the man and his class. I can see some folks believing that what they are doing now is 'The Way as it might have been'.

[Belle]

Very keen observation, Oak and very true.

The people who see little to no errors in PFAL and general TWI doctrine have a totally different view from:

- those who have re-evaluated everything and come to the conclusion that PFAL was riddled with errors but that the Bible is still the God-breathed word and inerrant in nature

which is a different view from:

- those who still believe in God, but recognize and admit that the Bible isn't the end all and be all of religion, beliefs and God.

I think the first two groups are most likely to either be in or to have started spin-offs and to maintain their involvement there.

Those in the first group are most likely to still hold the arrogant, egotistical attitude that we were taught so well. These are the ones who attack those who don't believe like they do and the ones who scare me the most.

Edited December 19, 2005 by Belle

[GeorgeStGeorge]

Very keen observation, Oak and very true.

The people who see little to no errors in PFAL and general TWI doctrine have a totally different view from:

- those who have re-evaluated everything and come to the conclusion that it (PFAL) was riddled with errors but that the Bible is still the God-breathed word and inerrant in nature

which is a different view from:

- those who still believe in God, but recognize and admit that the Bible isn't the end all and be all of religion, beliefs and God.

I think the first two groups are most likely to either be in or to have started spin-offs and to maintain their involvement there.

Those in the first group are most likely to still hold the arrogant, egotistical attitude that we were taught so well. These are the ones who attack those who don't believe like they do and the ones who scare me the most.

Sorry for the minor edit, Belle; but I initially read your message as saying that the Bible was riddled with errors but somehow still inerrant.

George

[Belle]

Ahhhhh, yes, George. Thank you! That IS what I meant - that some believe PFAL was wrong in many places, but that the Bible is still inerrant.

I'll fix it in the original post so as to not cause confusion, but leave my "thank you" here for clarifying and helping me communicate better. :) I appreciate it!

[themex]

Yes, TWI splinter groups think that they are protecting VPW work.

Chris Geer is the originator of this groups.

They think that VPW work was correct.

In contrast LCM was not the one that should have been the TWI president.

That they do not have friends when you have to believe God´s Word or a friend.

That they are the ones that should have been the TWI presidents and have a pure heart to God.

They have problems whit the TWI leadership, with the trusstees. Not whit PFAL or VPW doctrine.

By the way Belle: biger is the one that is in you that the one that is in the world. You do not have to be afraid of no one or anybody.

:P

[johniam]

quote: the ones who scare me the most.

BOO!

[Nottawayfer]

You do not have to be afraid of no one or anybody.

themex,

Where does the avitar come from? It scares me a lot!!! The eyes are wicked scary!

[dmiller]

es, TWI splinter groups think that they are protecting VPW work.

Chris Geer is the originator of this groups.

They think that VPW work was correct.

C Geer has no part of CES.

Nor does CES think docvic is 100% right (correctly so).

David

Edited December 20, 2005 by dmiller

[WordWolf]

themex,

Where does the avitar come from? It scares me a lot!!! The eyes are wicked scary!

His avatar is from

"Star Wars Episode III-Revenge of the Sith".

It's a pic of Darth Vader once he became a Sith Lord,

but before he wore the famous black armour.

[Digitalis]

Personally I believe that if people chose to get along together and correct the doctrinal and practical problems that we were taught by TWI and start fellowships its their right to do so. The problem is we all don't agree in what was taught correctly and what was taught incorrectly. Whether it be CFF or CES or any other ex TWI fellowship you have to come to some sort of understanding just like you would in any church one decided to attend.

Was everything we learned wrong? NO .......... but we have to determine whats important and whats not. The important thing to me is that we don't leave God out of the equation because of our human stubborness and hard headedness or hard hearts. Where we so often try to prove ourselves right in the knowledge of the word and others so wrong. Where our opinions are more important than lets say CES or CFF because they made a choice a decision of what they felt was still usuable and didn't try to reinvent the wheel but altered it. Its not like a good portion of the materials we were taught originated with TWI. Much was plagerized ....

I know that there are people at these other organizations that some have offenses with and they may be rightly so, but if its an individual matter and not a CES or CFF wide matter than why throw the whole group away. I don't fellowship with either group personally but have received a teaching tape from one of them and a book from the other one of them. The tape I enjoyed, the only one I have of theirs, and the book I have never read just because I wasn't ready to read it. But, it was a gift to me from a wonderful poster from Waydale and later on Greasespots who cared about me and was simply trying to help me start reading the word and thinking of God again.

Much of the problem in the later years was LCMS ego in my opinon. And so many people wanting to be just like him. Well for the most part I believe those who left while he was still leader realized he was a "False Prophet" one who twisted and perverted the Word to his own use. Twisted and perverted his own ideals to get over on people to get his way, to make himself look good even tho he did such great harm. One lie to cover another no matter whom he hurt, to make himself look grand. Not Godly. And many including myself are concerned that if we go to one of these organizations where some of our old friends are even at, we are going to fall under the TWISTED LEADER again.

Continuations of the way .......... I really don't know ......... But ........ I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because I have never been to either place ....

Digi

Edited December 20, 2005 by Digitalis

[themex]

His avatar is from

"Star Wars Episode III-Revenge of the Sith".

It's a pic of Darth Vader once he became a Sith Lord,

but before he wore the famous black armour.

Yes, Wordwolf is correct!

He is Darth Vader without armour.