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skyrider

Outreach beyond vpw's congregation

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In October of 1996, when I purchased Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve.....I was so busy with the endless meetings and classes in twi that I quickly shelved this book.

And, after leaving twi.....the "scales fell from my eyes" and I began to see twi's collective, systematized adulation for victor paul wierwille that was one of their MAJOR cornerstones. The Wierwille roots, the Wierwille family tree, the Wierwille family crest, the Wierwille family's stand on "the word," the Wierwille property, the Wierwille president seal, the Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium, the Wierwille homestead, Wierwille Road, and vp wierwille buried at the most prominent spot in the Garden of Living Waters.

On and on and on......the wierwille adulation goes.

And, sure......I can appreciate that vpw spent decades searching for answers, traveling to seminars, studying other men's work, and conversing with hundreds of other Christian leaders through the years. God can work and direct the path of a man who hungers and thirsts after truth. And yet, this book reveals far more than the doctored-version (no pun intended) of way adulation.

In my opinion.....mrs. wierwille's book UPROOTS the ideology and mog status of vpw. It exposes veepee's fraudulent claim of "God teaching him the word like it hadn't been known (yeah, except by other men's ministries) since the first century." The book lays bare vpw's heisting of BG Leonard's class on "The Gifts of the Spirit" and pawning it off as his own in October 1953. And clearly, wierwille studied and plagerized the works of Kenyon, Bullinger and others and incorporated these truths into pfal in the late 60s.

The pages of Mrs. Wierwille's book distinctly show that Christians from all walks of life were living epistles of God's grace and goodness. Time and time again, it was NOT the knowledge....but the love of God in application that healed or delivered one afflicted with bondage, pain or suffering. The grace of God abounds in all facets of life to those who love the Lord.

In the end, knowledge puffeth up......and love edifies. My deep thanks to Mrs. Wierwille for writing this book and setting forth twi's history that CANNOT be re-written by current twi leadership.

:)

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ok, i'm taking a big risk here.......but here goes.

When I read these things posted here, I see a hunger and a longing for a deeper spirituality, and a desire to help people. I am by no stretch of the imagination a VP defender. Yet, could it be that VP's soul was crying out for something deeper and more meaningful than what he had experienced in his church life?

Yeah, he had ambition, but is that always a bad thing?

ex10,

I was posting at the same time as you.

Ambition is not a bad thing. Fraudulent claims, stealing other's material, and plagerism ARE bad things. Wierwille, a highly educated man, clearly crossed the line........and, I believe, in his own conscience he KNEW IT.

To me, it wasn't wierwille's hunger and drive to find deeper truths.......it was "the power grab of knowledge" that would elevate his ministry to "stardom" that's the culprit.

Take for instance, the BG Leonard class scenario..........

.....vpw goes to Calgary in February 1953 and sits through BG's class

.....vpw and mrs. and don sit thru BG's class in June/July of 1953

.....vpw teaches this class AS HIS OWN in October 1953 (aka: pfal)

Later, BG Leonard finds out about this and STARTS COPYRIGHTING ALL HIS MATERIAL.

And, why has twi ALWAYS BEEN STRICT ADHERENTS TO COPYRIGHT LAWS...???

Hmmmmm..........

Edited by skyrider

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It's easy to villify everything we know about the cult, and the man who started it. But in the interest of sorting out this tangled mess of who VP was, and what his motives were, and were they took him, I don't want to be too quick to jump to conclusions.

In my not so humble opinion, despite all the evil and wickedness that this man's "ministry" has wrought, something worked.

And I think at least a little piece of it had God and the Lord Jesus involved. Some where? somehow? along the way? If not, fine, I can deal with it and have in my life. I just don't think the answers are as easy as we'd like them to be sometimes.

Big sigh...........

ex......in the interest of sorting out this "tangled mess," here's the way I look at it.

.....Yes, wierwille had ambition and a drive to learn more.

.....He studied from lots of genuine ministries and compiled a class.

.....The class had truth and some error (wheat and tares) growing together.

.....I found nourishment from the wheat.

.....Whenever I find tares (weeds)....I burn them.

.....God and the Lord Jesus were involved in the truth held forth.

.....The message of truth has strengthened me.

.....Life is in the growing. :)

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This is where I find the problem in what I think.

Was he a person that started as a rebel rouser, then had a true question in his heart about God? Then once he thought he had the answer from God, started twi. Then once he had the "power" to bring in people to show what he had learned that he turned back to his "Old Man" because of what was before him (young females) that believed everything he said and "fell" for his line of .....

Or did he think from the start that he could have YOUNG WOMEN and MONEY from the start?

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:asdf: Geeze, justloafing, that's the million dollar question.

And unfortunately, it's one that we will never get the answer to, in this lifetime anyway.

So I guess we'll keep talking about it til the cows come home. :asdf:

But hey, I'm a Texan. I can handle cows. :evilshades:

Edited by ex10

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I join Ex10 with the warning that I am not a VPW apologist, either.

However, in looking at the history we must remember that VP was in his 20's and 30's when he started this quest. As most of us were at his age, we thought we knew a better way to slice bread. The tragedy came in the later years with the perversion of thoughts and actions taken at our expense.

Many corporations are started by people taking what they have learned from other sources and building something with their own twist, and believe me, very few credit where they got their knowledge from.

If VP was trying to hid the sources of the information used in his classes, then how is it that I came away knowing about Bullinger, BG Leonard, Stiles, etc. These were not names that were hidden from view.

However, I was not made aware of the amount of material that was incorporated, word for word, in the classes.

Skyrider, thank you for taking the time to post the sections of this book. I had never seen or heard about. No matter what conclusions one comes to about the content, I always thought warmly about Mrs. Weirwille.

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It was always about him...Veepee always had center stage...it was his nature, his psyche, his life.

Interesting posts...and who could ever forget in pfal when Wierwille talks about Simon the sorcerer? "That I may become the great power of God"...this is who wierwille was. He was an insecure egomaniac. It wasn't good enough for him to be a successful preacher..no no...he had to be the great apostle who knew the "werd of gawd" better than ANYBODY since the 1st century! The farkin' MOG!

Even as convicts learn lessons from their time in prison, we too have learned some lessons from our time in a cult...My motto is "don't sh it me, I got a turd in every pocket! :spy:

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To me, it wasn't wierwille's hunger and drive to find deeper truths.......it was "the power grab of knowledge" that would elevate his ministry to "stardom" that's the culprit.

Take for instance, the BG Leonard class scenario..........

.....vpw goes to Calgary in February 1953 and sits through BG's class

.....vpw and mrs. and don sit thru BG's class in June/July of 1953

.....vpw teaches this class AS HIS OWN in October 1953 (aka: pfal)

Mrs. Wierwille's account in her book DOCUMENTS this "power grab of knowledge" by vpw:

p. 99...."There were no charts, no books, no syllabus; just the Bible and a chalkboard. Dr. Wierwille wanted to build that class in a carefully documented scriptural way with a greater understanding of our accumulated learning of the past years."

...."accumulated learning of the past years" [aka...BG Leonard's class]

p. 100...."The people who had been part of B.G. Leonard's class on 'The Gifts of the Spirit' were considered graduates and not included in the rosters of Dr. Wierwille's classes."

...some were CONSIDERED GRADUATES [two carloads of friends traveled to Calgary in June 1953...p. 91]

There you have it......DOCUMENTED PROOF.....it was the SAME material.

:eusa_clap::eusa_clap::eusa_clap:

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This is where I find the problem in what I think.

Was he a person that started as a rebel rouser, then had a true question in his heart about God? Then once he thought he had the answer from God, started twi. Then once he had the "power" to bring in people to show what he had learned that he turned back to his "Old Man" because of what was before him (young females) that believed everything he said and "fell" for his line of .....

Or did he think from the start that he could have YOUNG WOMEN and MONEY from the start?

We can't read his mind-but we can review his actions.

Here's what we know-from twi SOURCES.

He started out as a kid on a farm who avoided farmwork.

Rather than inherit the farm, he was convinced he'd do better

with a college education.

Initially, he had not decided on the ministry-he considered it

one option among SEVERAL, like business and so on.

Until he met R1nker, he did not BELIEVE the Bible was God's Word.

By that time, he had completed his undergraduate work and gotten

a Bachelor's degree, AND had been preaching for a year.

When faced with many areas to study-Bible languages, Bible history,

church history-he selected "homiletics", or "preaching", which, compared

to everything else, is an incredibly "soft option". He picked the course

with the least work.

Only a few months into a "lifetime serving God", he was frustrated and

repeatedly considered giving up.

All of this is "public record."

Adding that the neighbors all thought he was a showoff, a bully,

and was a lousy choice for a minister,

and adding that his personality didn't improve thru the entire

decade of the 1940s (supposedly following a promise of God),

I think the completed picture supports strongly that he was not

"called" to the ministry except by ambition.

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And, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy. Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody will listen to me. The whole church will be blessed; my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God."

I see a deeper subtext here--could ":everybody will listen to me" actually have had another part to it?? a part that goes "because nobody listens to me now???"" Was all the "outreach" an attempt to serve or an attempt to find a group of listeners who didn't, in short order, find the snake -oil salesmen in VPWs character?

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His job was to shed light, not to master.

Ok John I can agree with that but we were supposed to master his work. I don't know how many times we were told to "Master the Blue Book". So in other words what you are saying? Because he did not master but just was to shed light we were to master his "writings". No thanks.

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oh man i was reading things and quoting things ..... but then scott stevens was getting honored

now i forgot everything i was going to say but it was good

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I see a deeper subtext here--could ":everybody will listen to me" actually have had another part to it?? a part that goes "because nobody listens to me now???"" Was all the "outreach" an attempt to serve or an attempt to find a group of listeners who didn't, in short order, find the snake -oil salesmen in VPWs character?

Good point.

Is there a fundamental difference between the showoff on the

motorcycle, and the preacher claiming God showed him secrets

hidden for 19 centuries? Were both just ways of saying

"Everyone-look at me! I'm special! Listen to me-I have special

answers!"

His job was to shed light, not to master.

His job-which he accepted-was to pastor his congregation.

Instead, he applied a heavy-handed approach, and kept looking

for ways to get people to listen to him, and looked for

bigger audiences.

Where does "shedding light" come in,

and what does it mean in this context?

I like flashlights. They shed light. I'm sure that's not what you mean..

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Is there a fundamental difference between the showoff on the motorcycle, and the preacher claiming God showed him secrets hidden for 19 centuries? Were both just ways of saying

"Everyone-look at me! I'm special! Listen to me-I have special answers!"

It would be interesting to know how many things taught in piffle were inspired not by God, but by VP's desire to justify his improper actions. I was thinking about the prophet that was "crookeder" than a dog's hind leg ... covering for himself (and I don't think crookeder is a word, but that's how I remeber him saying it)

Then there was the bit where he mocks the know it all preacher "I've got the ANSWERS!"

This was probably a sub-conscious rationalization ... I dunno, need a shrink on this maybe :blink: "It's amazing they didn't break their hands when they were patting themselves on the back all the time!" LOL ... this could be it's own thread I suppose ... early indications that VP was full of the spirit of himself ...

Then there's the bit about the guy that told VP he didn't know what he was talking about. VP says "it does no good to belittle a man", then he turns right around and belittles the guy ... "I've already forgotten more than that old boy will ever know blah blah" <_<

He remembered these things for years and felt a need to vindicate himself perhaps. Belittling those that challenged him, and justifying his own bad behavior ... a retrospective review is in order ... LOL

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quote: oh man i was reading things and quoting things ..... but then scott stevens was getting honored

Oh, THAT'S the #4 you were talking about on the sports forum.

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It would be interesting to know how many things taught in piffle were inspired not by God, but by VP's desire to justify his improper actions. I was thinking about the prophet that was "crookeder" than a dog's hind leg ... covering for himself (and I don't think crookeder is a word, but that's how I remeber him saying it)

Then there was the bit where he mocks the know it all preacher "I've got the ANSWERS!"

This was probably a sub-conscious rationalization ... I dunno, need a shrink on this maybe :blink: "It's amazing they didn't break their hands when they were patting themselves on the back all the time!" LOL ... this could be it's own thread I suppose ... early indications that VP was full of the spirit of himself ...

Then there's the bit about the guy that told VP he didn't know what he was talking about. VP says "it does no good to belittle a man", then he turns right around and belittles the guy ... "I've already forgotten more than that old boy will ever know blah blah" <_<

He remembered these things for years and felt a need to vindicate himself perhaps. Belittling those that challenged him, and justifying his own bad behavior ... a retrospective review is in order ... LOL

An interesting perspective, for sure.......subtle JUSTIFICATION seeping into pfal...???

Hmmmmmm......

:)

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This is where I find the problem in what I think.

Was he a person that started as a rebel rouser, then had a true question in his heart about God? Then once he thought he had the answer from God, started twi. Then once he had the "power" to bring in people to show what he had learned that he turned back to his "Old Man" because of what was before him (young females) that believed everything he said and "fell" for his line of .....

Or did he think from the start that he could have YOUNG WOMEN and MONEY from the start?

I think we all would like that question answered, I've heard different theories but I really don't know, and as EX10 said, we won't know for sure in this lifetime.

I heard Dale Sides say in his taped sharing called "Jesus Christ Judgement on the Way international" that VP was given a genuine ministry but became under the influence of demons. He also said the audible voice VP heard was not Jesus Christ on this sharing. Well I don't know if Dale is correct or not, but he could be.

On the other side, where some believe he just conned us, I'm not sure of that either.

From WW's thread "The way living in wonderland" We learned that young VPW was a bully, a rebel, a showoff and the towns folk who knew VP thought it was a joke that he went into seminary, since it was so uncharacteristic of VP.

VPW admits in the book that he lost faith during seminary and admits he didn't believe in the Bible. He tells us that he did the opposite of what the Church leaders said being rebelous and when confronted he just yells at them, acting as a bully.

Then in 1942 he meets Rosilie Rinker who gets him to really believe in the Bible and read it instead of reading around it. He tells God that if he really wants VP to serve him that he needs a sign. Well According to VPW's account God made in snow. But the weather reports don't show snow for that day.

Well as you know VP decided to go into business for himself plagerizing various people and copying the bulk of B.G. Leonards class then adding from others such as Bullinger to it.

Is this what God taught him to do? I tend to doubt it! Did God truly teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century? I find it difficult to believe God would wait 2000 years before VP came along to teach the word.

I believe there has been many people over the centuries that prayed to God for answers, why would God only choose VPW?

Sorry Justloafing, I have more questions then answers concerning VP. But I do believe we were taught some truth of God's word and I do believe we were conned to a certain degree.

Edited by Outin88.

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Well as you know VP decided to go into business for himself plagerizing various people and copying the bulk of B.G. Leonards class then adding from others such as Bullinger to it.

Is this what God taught him to do? I tend to doubt it! Did God truly teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century? I find it difficult to believe God would wait 2000 years before VP came along to teach the word.

I believe there has been many people over the centuries that prayed to God for answers, why would God only choose VPW?

Sorry Justloafing, I have more questions then answers concerning VP. But I do believe we were taught some truth of God's word and I do believe we were conned to a certain degree.

"Did God truly teach VP The Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st Century?"

As I keep pointing out, there's at least 2 (or 3) problems with this single claim.

A) EVERYTHING vpw taught was already KNOWN before the supposed 1942 promise.

Bullinger's work was in circulation, Leonard was teaching.

Others-like Clarence Larkin-released books and charts resembling the classes.

Everything vpw taught was all in circulation before he taught it.

B) vpw learned it FROM other Christians-their books and classes.

It was not a study-session with God-it was a photocopy session with his xerox machine.

C) vpw, the homiletics student, remained deficient in his understanding

of church history and other matters until his death. As such, he was unaware

that if a god actually DID make such a promise, it was a poorly-informed

god.

As it was known in the First Century, The Word was the Old Testament,

plus one or 2 circulating books of the new. THEY didn't have copy machines.

They had a DEcentralized group that was big on power and very short

on academic study. The money circulated freely to where needs were,

and widows and orphans were taken care of.

Compare that to vpw.

ALL academic study. ANEMIC miracles (compared to them.)

Everything centralized. Widows and orphans?

"You'll always have the poor-now send me your money."

So, the snow job is irrelevant to how bogus this promise was.

Although, if there WAS a promise, it was NOT from the God and Father

of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if he was so deficient as a Christian that

he spent his life unable to distinguish between THOSE 2 voices,

then why should I trust him on ANYTHING?

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Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve journals vpw's life......from 1916 - 1961.

Volume 2 of vpw's life (from 1961 - 1985) has yet to be written.

Here is how the book, Volume 1, ends.

======

p. 264

Moving day arrived. It was now Thursday, February 2, 1961, a very blustery, frigid winter day. The temperature reached ten degrees with blizzard conditions. Some of our lady workers arrived early at our remodeled home to get an idea of which rooms the boxes, and furniture were to be delivered to as they arrived from Van Wert. The ladies lit the living room and basement fireplaces to help the furnace in heating the house.

At 1:30 p.m. the Wierwille Upholstery Company trucks arrived with the first loads of our furniture and household goods. The easiest way to move the furniture and boxed things was through the four-foot sliding glass doors off the east porch. The brisk wind also forced through the house each time the door glided open. What a day!

That evening we had our first fellowship in the living room in that new home. There still was no carpet on the floor, and the chairs had not yet been delivered, so the next best thing to sit on were boxes, the stairs, and pillows on the floor. Those present wer ladies and children: Rhoda, Miney Shroyer, Jan George, and her children (Susan, Mark, Paul, Tim and David), Evelyn Jones, Mary Wierwille (Rueben's wife), and myself with J.P. and Sara. The men were still out with the moving trucks, which were hauling the last loads of furniture. They arrived at 10:00 and 10:30 p.m.

Dr. Wierwille, myself, and our family had spent over sixteen years in Van Wert. For Dr. Wierwille these years were filled with many hours of research in God's Word as well as many miles of travel in search of the truth. That had also been Dr. Wierwille's time of pastoring the congregation of his church with sermons, radio broadcasts, choir rehearsals, women's guild meetings, weddings, confirmations, counseling, and other church-related activities. Dr. Wierwille was busy learning about people and the practical application of the Word he was researching. This was his life-style in Van Wert. From the following letter you will see his vision, his goal to reach people with God's rightly divided Word has not changed.

[Letter to followers]

THE WAY, INC.

NEW KNOXVILLE, OHIO

February 20, 1961

Dear Followers of The Way:

We are moved! Praise God--not only for our new headquarters home, but for those who prayed and believed and for everyone who helped us to get moved in. What a task, considering both offices, etc. Our address is New Knoxville, Ohio. Phone: 4545.

We opened officially on Sunday Night (Lincoln's Birthday) February 12th with a great song service and an inspirational fellowship culminating in an alive and vital communion service. The spirit of fellowship was the sweetest this side of Heaven and how I wish all of my friends could have been blessed with us. Representative Martin Feigert from Van Wert supplied our Ohio State flag and State seal and U.S. Representative Walter Moeller has volunteered to send us the U.S. flag flying over our National Capital on Washingtong's Birthday, the ounder of our country. Isn't that wonderful!

Open House for everybody on Saturday afternoon and evening, March 25th.

We have a wonderful teaching fellowship each and every Sunday Night at 7:30 at Headquarters and we invite you to join us whenever possible. Thursday, at 8 p.m. each week is our local prayer group joining with our prayer groups across our Nation. We maintain a 24 hour a day telephone line open for prayer. Call 4545, New Knoxville any hour any day, we are at your service in His behalf.

Ministers and wives, missionaries, full time Christian workers: Class on Power for Abundant Living, Y.M.C.A., Xenia, Ohio, Contact Headquarters or write Rev. Paul Crockett, R.D.#3, Xenia, Ohio, Phone: Drake 2-5274. The class will meet in the mornings only at 8:30 a.m. I will pay you to get your minister and his wife into this class. Perhaps you have a minister or missionary friend you could bring in. this may be the most outstanding class The Way has ever offered.

Sincerely,

In His Service,

Victor Paul Wierwille

[End of letter]

In moving from Van Wert to The Way farm, life kept forging ahead. Dr. Wierwille seemed to have a fountain of plans for serving God's people. As he many times said, by keeping our hands joined in "one mind with one spirit" we would together move God's Word.

We had made the transition from the Van Wert pastorate to giving our full-time believing efforts to The Way Ministry. With our move to Dr. Wierwille's childhood land, we continued to be challenged to depend upon God to open doors of utterance. We were doing everything we knew to spread the dynamic knowledge of His Word, the Word we had been given and which we were eager to share.

[End of book]

=========

A couple of comments.....

(from letter)......."I WILL PAY YOU [emphasis added] to get your minister and his wife into this class."

......"With our move to Dr. Wierwille's childhood land......" Now, HE will answer to NO ONE and has more leverage to establish COMPLETE CONTROL.

Edited by skyrider

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Here are *some* details of Mrs. Wierwille's book.....Born Again to Serve

For those who were asking........

Wunderbar!...Just how I want to spend my Christmas time! Reading more of this junk!! :asdf:

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