Yes, they did. Too bad it's laced with legalism. Speaking of movies, remember in "Sudden Impact" when that diner is about to be robbed and the lady behind the counter puts an UNGODLY amount of suger in Inspector Callahan's coffee so he spits it out? Which leads to him thwarting the robbery attempt and the classic line, "Go ahead, make my day."
Well, the coffee is TWI and the sugar is the legalism. Yeah, I'll spit that out any time. But, yeah, read Romans 10:9, believe it, you're born again, you have holy spirit, you can ask God about anything you want and He won't always answer you but He will show you stuff according to your desire. Back in the old days they'd talk up signs miracles and wonders as though if you didn't see them you must not be believing, but just what constitutes a sign miracle or wonder? If you have joy in your heart living in this world that's got to be a wonder, at least. You don't have to part the Red sea every other day to be a true believer do you?
Maybe some of you can't see how the unbelievers are led around by the nose by the god of this world but I can and I'm glad it's them and not me. Yes, I think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God. In fact, they did it so well that many of us don't need them anymore.
Well said Johno, they did for me as well. In fact, it was a whole bunch of miracles that got my family and I to Rome city so that we could undertake 'leadership training', etcc... and whilst in there we got to see some 'real' revelation happenin too. Well, o.k. not a lot, but stuff that was 'right on' for me and my family.
Also, I've found 'believin' = receivin' might have some 'flaws' but try tellin' that to an 8 year old girl who was awakened out of a deep coma instantaneously whilst being ministered to, or a middle aged lady with a fractured wrist who 'felt' the bones come back into place in the middle of a teaching, or my Mom who waited at some lights after they tuned green (even with cars behind her honking) because she audibly heard God tell her to wait, then to see a van run a red light and hurtle through the intersection that she would have just entered, or...my God I could go on and on, but like they say these are MY testimonies and I don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe them.
Like I said..maybe some 'superfluous flaws', but the 'nuts and bolts' I believe to be correct.
While in TWI I had the idea the normal Christian life was filled with signs, miracles and wonders; God talking to me on a regular basis – maybe even audibly someday if I was lucky; answered prayer with a consistency that would be the envy of every investment company; revelation guidance so clear that even if I was Balaam I couldn’t miss it.
Actually that isn't very far off from what the I believe IS POSSIBLE. By, saying it's Possible I am indicating that not every believer automatically gets everything or even more to the point WANTS everything (there are probably a good number of people who are believers who would be just as happy not having Signs and Miracles popping up in their lives like mushrooms, if the truth be told. Could probably be unsettling and difficult to explain to the neighbors--just my take here)
But the scripture does say "be ye perfect as Christ is perfect and one of the core tenets of my faith is the "perfecting of the saints." Rome wasn't built in a day and we all proceed at our own pace and God works with each individual.
SO yes on the surface, I would say TWI had it right. The downfall came when there was suddenly an elite in TWI who was more special, more deserving, more worthy, more in tune More of everything and the resulting abuse and legalism that resulted
...but like they say these are MY testimonies and I don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe them...
There's a "Believing" thread going on that your view might benefit from.
Whether I or anyone else believe you is irrelevant, really. Actually you're one of the few on this board who talk about miracles that, if true, are a bit more miraculous than the usual "I found a parking space! Right out front!" variety.
Hmm, somehow it seems to me that being in a ministry like TWI (or like the one a current poster advertises)that has such huge signs, miracles and wonders--why does it then happen that the people in those ministries treat those outside their sphere with such contempt?
Is it because their relationship with God is a type of 'cool clique'? "We've got ALL the answers, babeee, and you are scummmmm!"
I don't care how many miracles happen. I respect people who treat other's with dignity in the name of their God.
ALL I know is that I was *always seeking but never coming unto a knowledge* of him in twi.
I was taught do A+B+C absouletly will = D
I tried I did all of the formulas, operated all of the principles took all of the classes followed all of the instructions....only to feel that God`s ebntire opinion of me and my spirituality rested entirely on whom ever my leader was at the time and if they personally liked me.
I was considered a believer with great heart and phenominal commitment by my interim corpes tc only to be determined posessed and thrown out by the tc`s replacement a few weeks later <_<
My Limb leader in one state screamed at me and told me I was a real loser... because I had a parakeet and hamster in my room.....that I didn`t have the *heart of corpes*
Three months later my lc on the wow field loves me and thinks that I will be outstanding as corpes.
My BC and tc tell me that going corpes isn`t a good idea....(pop was just read) and I write a letter to hq explaining why I will not be entering residence (getting married) ...
I get a blistering letter from lcm declaring me a spiritual loser...a liar to God ...my heart was never to go corpes....
3 months later when I marry ...I get a *welcome to the corpes household* NOW you are something special from the same rabidly frothing mog that declared me so much garbage earlier.
What I am trying to say was that THESE men claimed that God worked through them .... and would say that I was a loser or I was posessed and that if I left twi that God couldn`t protect me....if I didn`t tithe God couldn`t protect me...If I didn`t read my bible and pray every morning God couldn`t help me grow spiritually...if I didn`t witness I couldn`t grow spiritually...if I didn`t have someone in every class I was a spiritual hitchhiker ...a bump on a log spiritually....
The thing is...I was so busy persuing formulas attending classes forfilling requirements....so very carefull to dot all of my *I*s and cross my *T*s ....and I still felt like I was one mistake or error away from losing God and his protection and love.
SO I would have to say no, I didn`t feel like twi promoted a relationship with God in my case.....
It took finally ditching everything that I thought I knew about God in order to start all over again and learn to see him as a loving father instead of being a *spiritual athlete* or soldier always preparing for the competition or battle.
I had to start all over again....because what good I learned in twi was so intermixed with the bad....it became as detrimental as the bad.
In so many areas, what Wierwille, Martindale et al said and what they promoted where not always the same thing.
Umm...Yeah, I thought so. I still believe in John 14:12...
Umm...yeah, they didn't cut the verse out of the bible, but did their actions and words promote that verse?
As WordWolf said, what I saw promoted was a mechanistic, or formulaic approach to God...do steps A, B, and C and God will jump through your hoops for you.
I thought that the promises of God we were taught in twi were far better than the "I don't know, maybe, if it be God's will, we don't know, etc. etc,., of the religion of my youth.
I think TWI tried to sell us magic beans. It all sounded good...but it was magic and superstition proclaimed as truth because they threw God and Jesus Christ in to add credibility.
I think some of us wanted answers to questions so bad that we'd believe anything and TWI put on a good show by the way they used, twisted and perverted scriptures to give us those answers. The ego stroking "I have all the answers" attitude we acquired in TWI totally eliminated any dependence on God and certainly never taught any true relationship with him. Nor with Jesus.
God was just an "order taker" and an entity who kept a scoreboard on us our whole lives. Instead of that holy spirit they pulled in and out of the water in the classes, it was a "forcefield" of protection.
You're protected. :)
Ooops! No you're not.
Okay, you're protected. ^_^
Oops! Messed up again! <_<
We spent so much time, concern and fear jumping through hoops to keep God and leadership happy that we didn't have time for a relationship with God, much less with anyone else.
Well my own experience was that I had a far better relationship with God prior to my TWI days. As a kid and teen I used to have regular talks with God (not that I ever audibly heard Him respond mind you) and I felt secure in the belief that He was listening.
By somewhere around the middle of my TWI experience I rarely had talks with God. For one thing, who the heck and the time? And then there was the issue of confidence and "self-love" which was erroded more and more over time so that as the end was nearing, I felt so condemned I couldn't even imagine God was reomotely interested in what I had to say.
Beyond that - define realistic But overall I'd say no. God became a tool that we were to use by practicing a ritualized formula - we were to bend God to OUR wills.
I recall teaching situations with VPW [Advanced Classes or Corps settings] where he’d pause for effect – as if he had an ear piece with a newsbreak coming in – and say “Father says shut up, Wierwille.” And then he’d have another pregnant pause – and go on to something else. Wow – who wouldn’t want a relationship like THAT with God?
Sounds like he took the dramatic pauses he learned while studying Homiletics
(how to write and teach a sermon),
OVERbuilt them like we saw on page 150 of "The Way:Living in Love"
(and discussed in its wonderland thread),
then simply added a little showmanship-
"Wait-God's sending me a message while we speak!
Ok, He's done! Where were we?"
Yepper, like the Heavy Rev they got about buying the Beta machines. Yep, straight from God alright!
our relationship with God was bleached clean of FEELINGS,
which siphoned much of it out.
Worse,
with us hiding our emotions,
we didn't even have a healthy relationship with OURSELVES,
let alone EACH OTHER.
WordWolf, I think you've hit on the exact number one reason I left TWI. Somehow hanging with them got me to a place where I didn't have a healthy relationship with myself, and I couldn't live that way. Thank you for stating the obvious.
Here’s what I’m asking GSC patrons: Do you think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God?
T-Bone, No, I don't think TWI promoted any type of relationship with God beyond Kids asking their Father for stuff.
I don't recall ever being encouraged in this direction, NEVER!
Yes, phrases were thrown out there to 'talk' with God, but everything seemed to be about ME, making sure I was doing all the right stuff to support the ministry/household.
Tithing, classes, focusing and Speaking in Tongues for what I wanted to bring to pass with my believing, witnessing, classes, exercising, classes...
I must say that I did hear God speak audibly a few times, and it was very clear, one was booming loud. But I don't think it was because God & I were so close, or had such a great relationship, it was needed, and it saved lives each time!
As far as others and God speaking to them of what to do... I don't know. Seems First Thought was another 'phrase', and whatever that 'first thought' was they were told it was God speaking to them. People took this teaching as truth, and since we all think, those first thoughts were labeled as 'God told me' stuff. Some people were bolder than others, but being a coordinator of any kind, you're taught to be confident in your choices and take charge!
When God gave us free will, I don't think He intended to tell us what to do, when to do it, where to do it, with whom to do it, why to do it, how long to do it, who not to do it with...
Do you think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God?
Other than being taught that Jesus Christ is not God, and that we pray to God, not Jesus Christ, as the LDS Church taught when I was growing up, I don't believe that TWI promoted a realistic or even healthy relationship with God.
We were taught that our connection to God was in the form of holy spirit. We could operate the manifestations of holy spirit, we could pray to God but we seldom, if ever, worshipped God. There was little or no teaching about how we really were to have a relationship to God. He was made parallel with His Word, and then parallels were drawn to the ministry as having the only rightly divided Word - the Promised Land. The ministry appointed itself to that position - like many other self-serving, close-minded ministries, cults, etc., have in the past - sort of a "I'm-Daddy's-Favorite" view.
There was little talk about the expansiveness of God, the love of God, or His Grace. Worship was only in the form of the manifestations. TWI gave a shout out to Him every now and then, but the real emphasis was on the greatness of the Teacher - not the Father.
No. TWI fell short in that area, to say the least.
We were taught that our connection to God was in the form of holy spirit. We could operate the manifestations of holy spirit, we could pray to God but we seldom, if ever, worshipped God.
This is where my understanding stands today. Unsettling as it is, I do not know what 'worship' means. How could speaking in tongues be IT?
All those examples in the Bible on singing, raising up their hands, shouting praises, dancing...
I've become a hard business person (in this category anyway)... thanks to TWI :(
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bliss
An Emphatic NO!
In TWI we were trying to know ''about'' HIM,
instead of knowing HIM.
God is not into ''events'' (heavy revvy,)as TWI taught us,
God wants a relationship!
imo
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Tom Strange
well of course T-Bone! doncha know that he walks with me and he talks with me and he...
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johniam
Yes, they did. Too bad it's laced with legalism. Speaking of movies, remember in "Sudden Impact" when that diner is about to be robbed and the lady behind the counter puts an UNGODLY amount of suger in Inspector Callahan's coffee so he spits it out? Which leads to him thwarting the robbery attempt and the classic line, "Go ahead, make my day."
Well, the coffee is TWI and the sugar is the legalism. Yeah, I'll spit that out any time. But, yeah, read Romans 10:9, believe it, you're born again, you have holy spirit, you can ask God about anything you want and He won't always answer you but He will show you stuff according to your desire. Back in the old days they'd talk up signs miracles and wonders as though if you didn't see them you must not be believing, but just what constitutes a sign miracle or wonder? If you have joy in your heart living in this world that's got to be a wonder, at least. You don't have to part the Red sea every other day to be a true believer do you?
Maybe some of you can't see how the unbelievers are led around by the nose by the god of this world but I can and I'm glad it's them and not me. Yes, I think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God. In fact, they did it so well that many of us don't need them anymore.
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allan w.
Well said Johno, they did for me as well. In fact, it was a whole bunch of miracles that got my family and I to Rome city so that we could undertake 'leadership training', etcc... and whilst in there we got to see some 'real' revelation happenin too. Well, o.k. not a lot, but stuff that was 'right on' for me and my family.
Also, I've found 'believin' = receivin' might have some 'flaws' but try tellin' that to an 8 year old girl who was awakened out of a deep coma instantaneously whilst being ministered to, or a middle aged lady with a fractured wrist who 'felt' the bones come back into place in the middle of a teaching, or my Mom who waited at some lights after they tuned green (even with cars behind her honking) because she audibly heard God tell her to wait, then to see a van run a red light and hurtle through the intersection that she would have just entered, or...my God I could go on and on, but like they say these are MY testimonies and I don't expect anyone else to necessarily believe them.
Like I said..maybe some 'superfluous flaws', but the 'nuts and bolts' I believe to be correct.
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templelady
*****BRACE YOURSELVES*****
Actually that isn't very far off from what the I believe IS POSSIBLE. By, saying it's Possible I am indicating that not every believer automatically gets everything or even more to the point WANTS everything (there are probably a good number of people who are believers who would be just as happy not having Signs and Miracles popping up in their lives like mushrooms, if the truth be told. Could probably be unsettling and difficult to explain to the neighbors--just my take here)
But the scripture does say "be ye perfect as Christ is perfect and one of the core tenets of my faith is the "perfecting of the saints." Rome wasn't built in a day and we all proceed at our own pace and God works with each individual.
SO yes on the surface, I would say TWI had it right. The downfall came when there was suddenly an elite in TWI who was more special, more deserving, more worthy, more in tune More of everything and the resulting abuse and legalism that resulted
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allan w.
Are you stalking me ??
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WordWolf
(I'm sure you thought that was funny.)
======
As for a realistic relationship with God, NO!
twi taught a MECHANISTIC relationship with God,
where you throw the switch and get the result.
God is neither a factory "wish" machine nor a divine genie,
slapping down our wishes at our whims.
vpw also had an interesting bias.
While he was correct (IMHO) that "a feeling" was not a REQUIREMENT
for a relationship with God,
he went further and encouraged the switching OFF of our feelings.
Humans are messy and emotional, and twi found that inefficient.
So, if we didn't just switch off our emotions on command,
then we faced insult added to injury as Job did-
where we suffer AND twi people CONDEMNED us for suffering.
So,
our relationship with God was bleached clean of FEELINGS,
which siphoned much of it out.
Worse,
with us hiding our emotions,
we didn't even have a healthy relationship with OURSELVES,
let alone EACH OTHER.
Even Job's miserable comforters "sat shiva" with the suffering Job
for 3 days before they went in and attacked him.
In twi, that was 3 days too long to wait.
And if you think it's changed now, only the LABELS have changed.
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Oakspear
Whether I or anyone else believe you is irrelevant, really. Actually you're one of the few on this board who talk about miracles that, if true, are a bit more miraculous than the usual "I found a parking space! Right out front!" variety.
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Bramble
Hmm, somehow it seems to me that being in a ministry like TWI (or like the one a current poster advertises)that has such huge signs, miracles and wonders--why does it then happen that the people in those ministries treat those outside their sphere with such contempt?
Is it because their relationship with God is a type of 'cool clique'? "We've got ALL the answers, babeee, and you are scummmmm!"
I don't care how many miracles happen. I respect people who treat other's with dignity in the name of their God.
Some prices are too high to pay.
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J0nny Ling0
Umm...Yeah, I thought so. I still believe in John 14:12...
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rascal
ALL I know is that I was *always seeking but never coming unto a knowledge* of him in twi.
I was taught do A+B+C absouletly will = D
I tried I did all of the formulas, operated all of the principles took all of the classes followed all of the instructions....only to feel that God`s ebntire opinion of me and my spirituality rested entirely on whom ever my leader was at the time and if they personally liked me.
I was considered a believer with great heart and phenominal commitment by my interim corpes tc only to be determined posessed and thrown out by the tc`s replacement a few weeks later <_<
My Limb leader in one state screamed at me and told me I was a real loser... because I had a parakeet and hamster in my room.....that I didn`t have the *heart of corpes*
Three months later my lc on the wow field loves me and thinks that I will be outstanding as corpes.
My BC and tc tell me that going corpes isn`t a good idea....(pop was just read) and I write a letter to hq explaining why I will not be entering residence (getting married) ...
I get a blistering letter from lcm declaring me a spiritual loser...a liar to God ...my heart was never to go corpes....
3 months later when I marry ...I get a *welcome to the corpes household* NOW you are something special from the same rabidly frothing mog that declared me so much garbage earlier.
What I am trying to say was that THESE men claimed that God worked through them .... and would say that I was a loser or I was posessed and that if I left twi that God couldn`t protect me....if I didn`t tithe God couldn`t protect me...If I didn`t read my bible and pray every morning God couldn`t help me grow spiritually...if I didn`t witness I couldn`t grow spiritually...if I didn`t have someone in every class I was a spiritual hitchhiker ...a bump on a log spiritually....
The thing is...I was so busy persuing formulas attending classes forfilling requirements....so very carefull to dot all of my *I*s and cross my *T*s ....and I still felt like I was one mistake or error away from losing God and his protection and love.
SO I would have to say no, I didn`t feel like twi promoted a relationship with God in my case.....
It took finally ditching everything that I thought I knew about God in order to start all over again and learn to see him as a loving father instead of being a *spiritual athlete* or soldier always preparing for the competition or battle.
I had to start all over again....because what good I learned in twi was so intermixed with the bad....it became as detrimental as the bad.
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oldiesman
Certainly as real a relationship there is "available".
If it wasn't real, what is?
All suggestions are welcome. :)
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Oakspear
In so many areas, what Wierwille, Martindale et al said and what they promoted where not always the same thing.
Umm...yeah, they didn't cut the verse out of the bible, but did their actions and words promote that verse?As WordWolf said, what I saw promoted was a mechanistic, or formulaic approach to God...do steps A, B, and C and God will jump through your hoops for you.
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oldiesman
I thought that the promises of God we were taught in twi were far better than the "I don't know, maybe, if it be God's will, we don't know, etc. etc,., of the religion of my youth.
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karmicdebt
I think TWI tried to sell us magic beans. It all sounded good...but it was magic and superstition proclaimed as truth because they threw God and Jesus Christ in to add credibility.
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Rejoice
Yepper, like the Heavy Rev they got about buying the Beta machines. Yep, straight from God alright!
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Belle
I think some of us wanted answers to questions so bad that we'd believe anything and TWI put on a good show by the way they used, twisted and perverted scriptures to give us those answers. The ego stroking "I have all the answers" attitude we acquired in TWI totally eliminated any dependence on God and certainly never taught any true relationship with him. Nor with Jesus.
God was just an "order taker" and an entity who kept a scoreboard on us our whole lives. Instead of that holy spirit they pulled in and out of the water in the classes, it was a "forcefield" of protection.
You're protected. :)
Ooops! No you're not.
Okay, you're protected. ^_^
Oops! Messed up again! <_<
We spent so much time, concern and fear jumping through hoops to keep God and leadership happy that we didn't have time for a relationship with God, much less with anyone else.
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Abigail
Well my own experience was that I had a far better relationship with God prior to my TWI days. As a kid and teen I used to have regular talks with God (not that I ever audibly heard Him respond mind you) and I felt secure in the belief that He was listening.
By somewhere around the middle of my TWI experience I rarely had talks with God. For one thing, who the heck and the time? And then there was the issue of confidence and "self-love" which was erroded more and more over time so that as the end was nearing, I felt so condemned I couldn't even imagine God was reomotely interested in what I had to say.
Beyond that - define realistic
But overall I'd say no. God became a tool that we were to use by practicing a ritualized formula - we were to bend God to OUR wills.
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
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WordWolf
Sounds like he took the dramatic pauses he learned while studying Homiletics
(how to write and teach a sermon),
OVERbuilt them like we saw on page 150 of "The Way:Living in Love"
(and discussed in its wonderland thread),
then simply added a little showmanship-
"Wait-God's sending me a message while we speak!
Ok, He's done! Where were we?"
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nolongerlurking
WordWolf, I think you've hit on the exact number one reason I left TWI. Somehow hanging with them got me to a place where I didn't have a healthy relationship with myself, and I couldn't live that way. Thank you for stating the obvious.
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johniam
quote: because I had a parakeet and hamster in my room...
Well THERE you GO! ANYBODY knows that real SPIRITUAL people have gerbils and ferrets. What did you expect?
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SafariVista
T-Bone, No, I don't think TWI promoted any type of relationship with God beyond Kids asking their Father for stuff.
I don't recall ever being encouraged in this direction, NEVER!
Yes, phrases were thrown out there to 'talk' with God, but everything seemed to be about ME, making sure I was doing all the right stuff to support the ministry/household.
Tithing, classes, focusing and Speaking in Tongues for what I wanted to bring to pass with my believing, witnessing, classes, exercising, classes...
I must say that I did hear God speak audibly a few times, and it was very clear, one was booming loud. But I don't think it was because God & I were so close, or had such a great relationship, it was needed, and it saved lives each time!
As far as others and God speaking to them of what to do... I don't know. Seems First Thought was another 'phrase', and whatever that 'first thought' was they were told it was God speaking to them. People took this teaching as truth, and since we all think, those first thoughts were labeled as 'God told me' stuff. Some people were bolder than others, but being a coordinator of any kind, you're taught to be confident in your choices and take charge!
When God gave us free will, I don't think He intended to tell us what to do, when to do it, where to do it, with whom to do it, why to do it, how long to do it, who not to do it with...
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ChasUFarley
Do you think TWI promoted a realistic relationship with God?
Other than being taught that Jesus Christ is not God, and that we pray to God, not Jesus Christ, as the LDS Church taught when I was growing up, I don't believe that TWI promoted a realistic or even healthy relationship with God.
We were taught that our connection to God was in the form of holy spirit. We could operate the manifestations of holy spirit, we could pray to God but we seldom, if ever, worshipped God. There was little or no teaching about how we really were to have a relationship to God. He was made parallel with His Word, and then parallels were drawn to the ministry as having the only rightly divided Word - the Promised Land. The ministry appointed itself to that position - like many other self-serving, close-minded ministries, cults, etc., have in the past - sort of a "I'm-Daddy's-Favorite" view.
There was little talk about the expansiveness of God, the love of God, or His Grace. Worship was only in the form of the manifestations. TWI gave a shout out to Him every now and then, but the real emphasis was on the greatness of the Teacher - not the Father.
No. TWI fell short in that area, to say the least.
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SafariVista
ChasUFarley said:
This is where my understanding stands today. Unsettling as it is, I do not know what 'worship' means. How could speaking in tongues be IT?
All those examples in the Bible on singing, raising up their hands, shouting praises, dancing...
I've become a hard business person (in this category anyway)... thanks to TWI :(
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