Well, during lcm's reign, "not esteeming any day above another" - hence no Merry Christ is Dead, no Ashteroth celebration... He probably would have done away with celebrating anything at all except for perhaps HIS birthday. :blink:
They work for free, too. They go door to door out of compulsion, NOT because of free will or because of the "abundance of the Word" living in their soul. ;) They even have to buy the tracts and those magazines they leave on your doorstep. :(
Last summer we had a temporary working in our office. She had eery characteristics. Ones just like a wayfer. It was hard to pinpoint, but my mental note to myself was to find out if she had been in twi. Later on I was joking about being in a cult. She asked me what it was about. I told her of the abuses and contraversial doctrine (i.e., trinity). She said they dont' believe in the trinity? Did they start off with someone out of Kingdom Hall? She couldn't believe another group would believe the same way. As I watched her mannerisms and ways of doing things, I couldn't get over how much she was like a typical biyatchy woman in The Way.
That's why I insist on giving them money if they insist on leaving the tracts with me. Raf's got some JW's in his family, I think. He can validate what I'm saying. :)
While perusing the latest "Watchtower" magazine that was left on my front stoop this afternoon.................(yes, I avoided opening the door on purpose.........)
I noticed how similar the "lingo" and "phrases" they used to describe and teach their beliefs. I was getting a little hot under the collar. I really felt as if I was reading the latest way bag.
The title of the first article was entitled "A Sure Guide to Happiness". But the topic was "the dead are dead".
:blink:
It was weird.
It went through all the typical "christian" arguments for folks being in heaven now, and gave it their argument. I think I was reading a ''mini"version of Are the Dead Alive Now.
Quote" the effects of death have left them lifeless in the grave."
So we got, Jesus Christ is not God from them, and the dead are not alive.
No, vpw did not rip that one off of the Watchtower Society.
He ripped it off Bullinger, who wrote books like
"the Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?"
(Compare to "Are the Dead Alive Now?" which even uses the same question-format in the title.)
Well, during lcm's reign, "not esteeming any day above another" - hence no Merry Christ is Dead, no Ashteroth celebration... He probably would have done away with celebrating anything at all except for perhaps HIS birthday. :blink:
That's "Babylon Mystery Religion."
Ralph Woodrow's followup "the Babylon Connection?" is a must-read--
it's the same writer explaining why "Babylon Mystery Religion" was full of error.
And "Babylon Mystery Religion" is the user-friendly version of Alexander Hislop's
"the Two Babylons", which it properly footnotes and endnotes.
lcm probably never learned all the errors were errors.
They work for free, too. They go door to door out of compulsion, NOT because of free will or because of the "abundance of the Word" living in their soul. ;) They even have to buy the tracts and those magazines they leave on your doorstep. :(
Yes, AFAIK,
their salvation is dependent upon works, and is in hazard of revocation if they stop.
Further, they buy the tracts and occasionally get a donation to recoup the expense.
That's why I insist on giving them money if they insist on leaving the tracts with me. Raf's got some JW's in his family, I think. He can validate what I'm saying. :)
Raf and I used to trade stories. (While we were in twi, of course.)
I was raised Roman Catholic, he was raised Watchtower Society.
Fun for us at the time, but if you'd overheard us, you'd have sworn
that between the two of them, they were going to destroy Christianity
AND Western Civilization. But we both picked up a lot about the other
group. I had the unfair "advantage" of copies of "Babylon Mystery Religion"
and "The Two Babylons" on hand.
So, yes, he told me back then that this is how the tracts get financed.
The company I work for now is owned by a family of Jehovah's Witnesses. One a recent lunch with one of the owners, we got to talking about our religious backgrounds and beliefs and I too was stunned by how similar the doctrines of the JW and TWI are.
1) Jesus Christ is Not God
2) Don't celebrate Holidays
3) No steeples on the buildings
4) Door to door witnessing
5) Emphasis on study and knowledge of Scripture
6) Moderate alchohol consumption is okay, but drunkenness is not.
I think there were others, but I forget now. The conversation formed a common Unitarian bond between us that makes for a nice working relationship.
One thing that impressed me was his assertion that many of the beliefs the JW's hold now have evolved over the years because of biblical study and research. They change their doctrines when they come to a different understanding of the Bible. If that's genuine, I have to respect it. Most denominations are more committed to their traditions than they are to truth.
I have also been impressed by their character and general morality. Unlike Vic's disciples, they don't promote sexually lax standards. In other words, they are genuinely decent people and have been very good to work with. I'm not planning on attending any Kingdom Hall meetings anytime soon, but would like to know more about them.
If you want to know the deep and dirty facts about the Jehovah's Witnesses spend a week at the X-Jehovah's Witnesses board the "Jehovah's Witnesses online - Censorship Free Discussion board"
but be careful because you could see anything because any thing is ok
LOL Cool~ I wouldn't be coming back to your door either!
belle, you sure they have to buy those magazines?
That is ridiculous.
I'm a former JW otherwise known as an EX JW.I'm not a former member of twi.I can tell you from personal experaince JW's don't pay for the magizens they want to leave you.They cannot in the USA charge for them if they want to keep their tax exempt statis.And let me tell you JW's would move heavan and earth to save a dollar.The indvidual JW does not pay for them.The WTS does not charge for them.They are supposed to ask for donnations to cover the cost of printing and the "World Wide Work" IE missionarys.But you in no way have to feel obligated to give them anything.
I hope that clears that up some for you.If you have questions I'm happy to answer them if I can.If not I'll tell you.
I was in Italy as a *missionary* for a group called Operation Mobilization, back in 1974.
We were given Gospels of John, new testaments, books by Billy Graham, Watchman Nee, etc. -- and didn't have to pay for them either -- but were STRONGLY encouraged to accept/ solicit a donation, if we actually gave one of them away -- especially one of the books/ vs the Gospels of John.
In our *training* -- we were told that if someone paid for something, it wouldn't gather dust on a table.
While I agree with that premise -- I saw folks wanting material they could not afford.
WW, JW's(or is that Yahweh's Witnesses/YW's) were founded by Russell and Rutherford, known as international Bible Students. Herbert Armstrong(the Worldwide Church of God) and son Garner Ted, splinter group The International Church of God came out of Congrgationalists, but were influenced by 7th Day Adventists(which along with Meggido Mission) also influenced JW's. Remember that Bullinger was associated with plymouth Brethern(Darby, Scolfield, Lankin, and Mueller) at one time, but disagreements quickly arose. From the early 1800's on in Great Britain and North America came the beginnings of so call "Biblical Research" with Spurgeon, Ruben Archer Torrey and Dwight Moody, Albert Benjamin Simpson, and many others we have talked about on these threads which voila leads us to VPW and Der Weg. if some want this theology, fine, but don't say that the rest of us Christians are heretics/blasphemers and should be murdered and destroyed. OK?
My experience was that we paid for the Watchtower and Awake magazines, then did with them as we pleased. If people gave us money, we took at as reimbursement. If they did not, we counted it as a donation. Is my memory faulty?
The Watchtower is in no danger of losing tax exempt status for selling magazines, even if they make a profit off them. There's nothing in non-profit law that stops a non-profit from owning and making money off of a publication (the Poynter Institute, for example, is a non-profit organization that publishes the St. Petersburg Times, a for-profit venture: the money that comes in from the paper finances the non-profit activities of the Institute). As long as the vast majority of the non-profit's activities are consistent with non-profit status, for-profit endeavors are considered fundraising. Poynter's not a perfect example, but we could discuss that in detail another time.
===
Other similarities: JW's teach that stauros means Jesus was nailed to a single stake (no crossbeam), just as Wierwille demonstrated in PFAL.
Big difference: Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that God expects a tithe from Christians.
My experience was that we paid for the Watchtower and Awake magazines, then did with them as we pleased. If people gave us money, we took at as reimbursement. If they did not, we counted it as a donation. Is my memory faulty?
The Watchtower is in no danger of losing tax exempt status for selling magazines, even if they make a profit off them. There's nothing in non-profit law that stops a non-profit from owning and making money off of a publication (the Poynter Institute, for example, is a non-profit organization that publishes the St. Petersburg Times, a for-profit venture: the money that comes in from the paper finances the non-profit activities of the Institute). As long as the vast majority of the non-profit's activities are consistent with non-profit status, for-profit endeavors are considered fundraising. Poynter's not a perfect example, but we could discuss that in detail another time.
===
Other similarities: JW's teach that stauros means Jesus was nailed to a single stake (no crossbeam), just as Wierwille demonstrated in PFAL.
Big difference: Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that God expects a tithe from Christians.
Early 1980 - State of California informs Jimmy Swaggart Ministries that tax is due for religious books and tapes sold in the state since 1974. Swaggart eventually pays the tax--$183,000.00--but sues for a refund. The case begins moving toward the U.S. Supreme Court.
? February, 1989 - U.S. Supreme Court rules it is illegal for Texas (and 14 other states) to exempt religious books from sales tax. Some states had been taxing religious books all along.
? Summer, 1989 - Society gives away ?free? books released at U.S. conventions. Witnesses are instructed to place donations in contribution boxes to cover the cost.
? June 22, 1989 - Watchtower Society, files Amicus Curiae (friend of the court) brief with U.S. Supreme Court in Jimmy Swaggart case. Others filing similar briefs include National Council of Churches and Society for Krishna Consciousness.
? January 17, 1990 - U.S. Supreme Court rules against Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, declaring that the sales tax must be paid.
? February 9, 1990 - Society writes letter to congregations announcing that literature will no longer be sold at Kingdom Hall and no price will be set in door-to-door distribution.
? February 25, 1990 - February 9th letter from Society is read at Sunday meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses across the United States.
? March 1, 1990 New policy of distributing literature without naming a price goes into effect.
? The March 15, 1990, WATCHTOWER magazine and March 22nd AWAKE!--printed earlier--still say ?25 cents (U.S.) a copy? and ?$5.00 (U.S.) per year.?; The April 1, 1990, Watchtower no longer carries a price.
? March 11, 1990 Announcement is made at Kingdom Halls in the U.S. that food will be available at no cost, on a freewill donation basis, at conventions
But you are correct that before 1990 they did charge a set price for the books and mags.They never told us why the change.They just said it was "new light" a simplfication.
Now they don't have food at the conventions any more.They tell you to pack a lunch and stay where you are to eat.They don't like it if you leave the conventions site to buy food.
I was still in when they made the changes.I remeber going door to door I hated it.I was embaressed every time my parents made me go.I didn't like asking for money.I hated feeling like a begger.Then they made the change and it was much easier for me.I would just give the book or magizen away and not ask for money.I put my own money in the contrabution boxes because I hated asking strangers for money.I hated talking to strangers period.I was a shy kid.My cheeks would be red and I wouldn't look at people when I talked at the door.When I got older I just lied and said I went door to door. :)
February 9, 1990 - Society writes letter to congregations announcing that literature will no longer be sold at Kingdom Hall and no price will be set in door-to-door distribution.
That's the part I was missing. Having not been a part of the group for years before that, I wouldn't have known this bit.
hmmm... how does that differ from "followers required to place donations" for classes? and "followers required to place donations in horn of plenty in order for God to spit in their direction"...?
Looking at the legalities of the Swaggart case: I can see where and why he got into trouble. It was not about losing tax exempt status. It was about the commercial sale of a product. This is why in most cases televangelists will tell you that books and other materials are "free" when you make a certain donation. It's a technicality, but a perfectly legal one. That way the non-profit can say they are not charging you for the product they're sending you.
But Swaggart was actually selling books in bookstores and expecting to get away without paying the sales tax. Dimwitted.
And yes, Tom, that is why the PFAL class was offered to those who made a specific donation. If they charged for the class, they'd have to charge the sales tax.
The government usually winks at this kind of thing.
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socks
In a perfect world we would all be well paid for our religious affiliation. We'd be able to decide in a competitive market. Want a big church? Spend big money. I'll show for the right dough. Buy me!
Ham
Heh.. it was the only character with the badge of mathematical excellence.. that made his way out of that existence.. I can't say it is (or were) me.. because I am still here..
Ham
For the "believers education".. I would recommend.. Norah Jones. Come away with me. then.. feels like home.. I would rate these as highly as Beatles.. Rubber Soul, Revolver.. Magical Mystery Tou
Belle
Well, during lcm's reign, "not esteeming any day above another" - hence no Merry Christ is Dead, no Ashteroth celebration... He probably would have done away with celebrating anything at all except for perhaps HIS birthday. :blink:
They work for free, too. They go door to door out of compulsion, NOT because of free will or because of the "abundance of the Word" living in their soul. ;) They even have to buy the tracts and those magazines they leave on your doorstep. :(
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coolchef
belle they have to buy that crap themselves!!?? what a hoot! i almost feel bad for them
after being haressed by them for too long i thought of a way to end thier knocking on my door
i answered the door naked
invited them in including their little girl
they have not knocked again in years!
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Nottawayfer
Last summer we had a temporary working in our office. She had eery characteristics. Ones just like a wayfer. It was hard to pinpoint, but my mental note to myself was to find out if she had been in twi. Later on I was joking about being in a cult. She asked me what it was about. I told her of the abuses and contraversial doctrine (i.e., trinity). She said they dont' believe in the trinity? Did they start off with someone out of Kingdom Hall? She couldn't believe another group would believe the same way. As I watched her mannerisms and ways of doing things, I couldn't get over how much she was like a typical biyatchy woman in The Way.
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bliss
LOL Cool~ I wouldn't be coming back to your door either!
belle, you sure they have to buy those magazines?
That is ridiculous.
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Belle
Yeppers!
That's why I insist on giving them money if they insist on leaving the tracts with me. Raf's got some JW's in his family, I think. He can validate what I'm saying. :)
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WordWolf
No, vpw did not rip that one off of the Watchtower Society.
He ripped it off Bullinger, who wrote books like
"the Rich Man and Lazarus: An Intermediate State?"
(Compare to "Are the Dead Alive Now?" which even uses the same question-format in the title.)
http://philologos.org/__eb-rml/
I don't know who Armstrong stole it from.
As for JCING, it's been suggested that was from Leonard.
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WordWolf
That's "Babylon Mystery Religion."
Ralph Woodrow's followup "the Babylon Connection?" is a must-read--
it's the same writer explaining why "Babylon Mystery Religion" was full of error.
And "Babylon Mystery Religion" is the user-friendly version of Alexander Hislop's
"the Two Babylons", which it properly footnotes and endnotes.
lcm probably never learned all the errors were errors.
Yes, AFAIK,
their salvation is dependent upon works, and is in hazard of revocation if they stop.
Further, they buy the tracts and occasionally get a donation to recoup the expense.
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WordWolf
Raf and I used to trade stories. (While we were in twi, of course.)
I was raised Roman Catholic, he was raised Watchtower Society.
Fun for us at the time, but if you'd overheard us, you'd have sworn
that between the two of them, they were going to destroy Christianity
AND Western Civilization. But we both picked up a lot about the other
group. I had the unfair "advantage" of copies of "Babylon Mystery Religion"
and "The Two Babylons" on hand.
So, yes, he told me back then that this is how the tracts get financed.
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Jbarrax
The company I work for now is owned by a family of Jehovah's Witnesses. One a recent lunch with one of the owners, we got to talking about our religious backgrounds and beliefs and I too was stunned by how similar the doctrines of the JW and TWI are.
1) Jesus Christ is Not God
2) Don't celebrate Holidays
3) No steeples on the buildings
4) Door to door witnessing
5) Emphasis on study and knowledge of Scripture
6) Moderate alchohol consumption is okay, but drunkenness is not.
I think there were others, but I forget now. The conversation formed a common Unitarian bond between us that makes for a nice working relationship.
One thing that impressed me was his assertion that many of the beliefs the JW's hold now have evolved over the years because of biblical study and research. They change their doctrines when they come to a different understanding of the Bible. If that's genuine, I have to respect it. Most denominations are more committed to their traditions than they are to truth.
I have also been impressed by their character and general morality. Unlike Vic's disciples, they don't promote sexually lax standards. In other words, they are genuinely decent people and have been very good to work with. I'm not planning on attending any Kingdom Hall meetings anytime soon, but would like to know more about them.
JerryB
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God loves you all my dear friend
If you want to know the deep and dirty facts about the Jehovah's Witnesses spend a week at the X-Jehovah's Witnesses board the "Jehovah's Witnesses online - Censorship Free Discussion board"
but be careful because you could see anything because any thing is ok
http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/index.php
Me and DMiller spend time there off and on
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
Roy -- you forgot to mention THOM'S CHAT
I'm over there too, but under a different name.
I answered one of your posts.
You'll figure it out -- but shhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Don't give me away. Either here or there. ;)
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year2027
God first
Beloved dmiller
God loves you my dear friend
Yes that is a great site too and its Censorship Free too
I will not give you away
I will try to figure it out
but how long have you been there my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
Remember refiner? He gave me the link to it. :)
And no -- I'm not evil force. ;)
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year2027
God first
Beloved dmiller
God loves you my dear friend
yes Refiner gave me the link to but I having heard from him for a while
I knew you were not evil force
my guess would be one that wrote "Rock and Roll" to me because I know you love music
but that is only a guess
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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GrouchoMarxJr
When twi would send me out door to door witnessing, I FELT like a Jehova's witness...
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Noni1974
I'm a former JW otherwise known as an EX JW.I'm not a former member of twi.I can tell you from personal experaince JW's don't pay for the magizens they want to leave you.They cannot in the USA charge for them if they want to keep their tax exempt statis.And let me tell you JW's would move heavan and earth to save a dollar.The indvidual JW does not pay for them.The WTS does not charge for them.They are supposed to ask for donnations to cover the cost of printing and the "World Wide Work" IE missionarys.But you in no way have to feel obligated to give them anything.
I hope that clears that up some for you.If you have questions I'm happy to answer them if I can.If not I'll tell you.
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excathedra
i'm not sure how close we are but they are a screwed up bunch and i love them to death
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dmiller
I was in Italy as a *missionary* for a group called Operation Mobilization, back in 1974.
We were given Gospels of John, new testaments, books by Billy Graham, Watchman Nee, etc. -- and didn't have to pay for them either -- but were STRONGLY encouraged to accept/ solicit a donation, if we actually gave one of them away -- especially one of the books/ vs the Gospels of John.
In our *training* -- we were told that if someone paid for something, it wouldn't gather dust on a table.
While I agree with that premise -- I saw folks wanting material they could not afford.
I gave away much more than I *sold*.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
WW, JW's(or is that Yahweh's Witnesses/YW's) were founded by Russell and Rutherford, known as international Bible Students. Herbert Armstrong(the Worldwide Church of God) and son Garner Ted, splinter group The International Church of God came out of Congrgationalists, but were influenced by 7th Day Adventists(which along with Meggido Mission) also influenced JW's. Remember that Bullinger was associated with plymouth Brethern(Darby, Scolfield, Lankin, and Mueller) at one time, but disagreements quickly arose. From the early 1800's on in Great Britain and North America came the beginnings of so call "Biblical Research" with Spurgeon, Ruben Archer Torrey and Dwight Moody, Albert Benjamin Simpson, and many others we have talked about on these threads which voila leads us to VPW and Der Weg. if some want this theology, fine, but don't say that the rest of us Christians are heretics/blasphemers and should be murdered and destroyed. OK?
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Raf
Noni,
My experience was that we paid for the Watchtower and Awake magazines, then did with them as we pleased. If people gave us money, we took at as reimbursement. If they did not, we counted it as a donation. Is my memory faulty?
The Watchtower is in no danger of losing tax exempt status for selling magazines, even if they make a profit off them. There's nothing in non-profit law that stops a non-profit from owning and making money off of a publication (the Poynter Institute, for example, is a non-profit organization that publishes the St. Petersburg Times, a for-profit venture: the money that comes in from the paper finances the non-profit activities of the Institute). As long as the vast majority of the non-profit's activities are consistent with non-profit status, for-profit endeavors are considered fundraising. Poynter's not a perfect example, but we could discuss that in detail another time.
===
Other similarities: JW's teach that stauros means Jesus was nailed to a single stake (no crossbeam), just as Wierwille demonstrated in PFAL.
Big difference: Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that God expects a tithe from Christians.
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Noni1974
Early 1980 - State of California informs Jimmy Swaggart Ministries that tax is due for religious books and tapes sold in the state since 1974. Swaggart eventually pays the tax--$183,000.00--but sues for a refund. The case begins moving toward the U.S. Supreme Court.
? February, 1989 - U.S. Supreme Court rules it is illegal for Texas (and 14 other states) to exempt religious books from sales tax. Some states had been taxing religious books all along.
? Summer, 1989 - Society gives away ?free? books released at U.S. conventions. Witnesses are instructed to place donations in contribution boxes to cover the cost.
? June 22, 1989 - Watchtower Society, files Amicus Curiae (friend of the court) brief with U.S. Supreme Court in Jimmy Swaggart case. Others filing similar briefs include National Council of Churches and Society for Krishna Consciousness.
? January 17, 1990 - U.S. Supreme Court rules against Jimmy Swaggart Ministries, declaring that the sales tax must be paid.
? February 9, 1990 - Society writes letter to congregations announcing that literature will no longer be sold at Kingdom Hall and no price will be set in door-to-door distribution.
? February 25, 1990 - February 9th letter from Society is read at Sunday meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses across the United States.
? March 1, 1990 New policy of distributing literature without naming a price goes into effect.
? The March 15, 1990, WATCHTOWER magazine and March 22nd AWAKE!--printed earlier--still say ?25 cents (U.S.) a copy? and ?$5.00 (U.S.) per year.?; The April 1, 1990, Watchtower no longer carries a price.
? March 11, 1990 Announcement is made at Kingdom Halls in the U.S. that food will be available at no cost, on a freewill donation basis, at conventions
This info came from a EX JW web site.Heres the linkJehovahsWitnessDiscussion
But you are correct that before 1990 they did charge a set price for the books and mags.They never told us why the change.They just said it was "new light" a simplfication.
Now they don't have food at the conventions any more.They tell you to pack a lunch and stay where you are to eat.They don't like it if you leave the conventions site to buy food.
I was still in when they made the changes.I remeber going door to door I hated it.I was embaressed every time my parents made me go.I didn't like asking for money.I hated feeling like a begger.Then they made the change and it was much easier for me.I would just give the book or magizen away and not ask for money.I put my own money in the contrabution boxes because I hated asking strangers for money.I hated talking to strangers period.I was a shy kid.My cheeks would be red and I wouldn't look at people when I talked at the door.When I got older I just lied and said I went door to door. :)
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Raf
That's the part I was missing. Having not been a part of the group for years before that, I wouldn't have known this bit.
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Tom Strange
hmmm... how does that differ from "followers required to place donations" for classes? and "followers required to place donations in horn of plenty in order for God to spit in their direction"...?
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Raf
Looking at the legalities of the Swaggart case: I can see where and why he got into trouble. It was not about losing tax exempt status. It was about the commercial sale of a product. This is why in most cases televangelists will tell you that books and other materials are "free" when you make a certain donation. It's a technicality, but a perfectly legal one. That way the non-profit can say they are not charging you for the product they're sending you.
But Swaggart was actually selling books in bookstores and expecting to get away without paying the sales tax. Dimwitted.
And yes, Tom, that is why the PFAL class was offered to those who made a specific donation. If they charged for the class, they'd have to charge the sales tax.
The government usually winks at this kind of thing.
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