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I forget who it was, perhaps Emily Post or Amy Vanderbilt, but at any rate this was a person who was high high society and known for etiquette, so it was probably one of the two. This is a story my mom impressed upon me: This individual was hosting a banquet and a famous person was the guest of honor, a person of humble origins who did not know the finer points of etiquette. At any rate, this guest, after the first course has been served, picked up his napkin and carefully tied it around his neck!!!!!! The hostess, without raising an eyebrow, did the exact same thing and so did the other guests. That's manners, folks. Oh, and class, too. wG

Not just that.. but isn't it LAME? Where's the "boldness", in him or in the *wonderful* administrators of the program? Lame, and pathetic.. they won't visit anywhere, it seems, where their arrogance just might be challenged.. anything that is said, is likely only to a controlled audience. I really think, When the old man, mac and the few other "old timers".. whoever they may be are gone, this little venture will turn into a wierwille brothers (and cousins) club.. there will be a whole family of numbnuts who can't be voted off.. if it ever makes it that far. why they want to sow that kind of corruption in their own family is beyond me..

and I will have 5 M post on this beloved GreaseSpot Cafe (about half of them WITH coffee)

Excellent - thanks for posting that.

Agreed.

Dear Darrell Bailey, I have no doubt as to your good intentions or the sincerity of your searching. But as it pertains to TWI doctrine many of your statements are too generalized for me to form any opinion other than I would tend to believe in your sincerity. And many, many specific doctrinal points have been bandied about for years here at GSC by folks who hold many, many different beliefs. A lot of that work and history has exposed what IMO is simple plagiarism, vainglory, and strife in Wierwille's actions even as he set up TWI. And I don't seem to have met many people who seem to be able to consider that point of view scripturally honestly. It seems to me that it was inevitable that due to Wierwille's intentions TWI was doomed to be rotten from the get-go. And as the Lord has promised to burn up lousy workmanship and take revenge on those who have despitefully used and ruined people financially and in any manner to sate their own piggish lusts that your dry and intellectual manner seems to me to fall a bit short of dealing with what really was going on among Wierwille's kids back in the day. Not to mention the inevitable leaven that has leavened the whole lump. BUT WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK IS "BABY" AND "BATHWATER" (added in editing) (I had to log-off for a bit)(Oh yeah...sigh...spelling too) It really seems to me that without complete honesty on the part of those who attempt to keep the Word alive TWI style that folks are pretty much being set up to fail in their endeavor. If someone is unwilling to take a real honest look at what the epistles say are the consequences of Wierwille's actions that they are unqualified to discern between "The baby and the bathwater." And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly repudiate all the hidden, yet cruel methods of leadership that they are almost certainly carrying on with all those manipulative and oppressive mannerisms. And if ex-TWI leadership doesn't openly handle each and every single legitimate complaint that many folks justly have that all their claims as to "great biblical truths" seem likely to be just more self-serving spin.

Dear Watered Garden, That sums much of it very nicely for me. And in my former splinter group I was amazed at the docile and content nature that the followers were expected to have while top leadership was encouraged to preform base brutality against many hearts and minds. Your sharing reminds me of the saying "Let not the strong please themselves unto their own edification." And leadership brutality and politicing lacks much of the grace and class that true etiquette contains.

LOL. Yep. Definately was not pleasant or sress free. So much pressure, and God forbid leadership should sit at your table....

Precisely! The purpose of etiquette is to make an event a pleasant and stress free experience for the participants. What we did in TWI, with all our precise table manners, etc., was not etiquette, it was ritualized behavior.

I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants a better understanding of the complexities of abuse. edit: You can order it through Amazon by going to the home page here.

Manners. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I saw a lot of Way believers become rude about manners. Ripping someone to shreads over a slight mis step with words, or not wiping a table properly etc....All in the name of ettiquette or being decent and in order. Some guy once flipped out and yelled at me because I passed the wrong plate to someone. I had violated ettiquette by doing that. Ironic really. He was more rude and inconsiderate by yelling at me in front of everyone than what I did by passing the wrong plate. I was humiliated at the time, but now I just think he was weird.

I could be wrong, but the website looks like the aftermath of some kind of civil war..

Yep.. all the while the "elders" are in some smoke filled back room, downing shots of Drambuie and Schnapps, eating pickled pigs feet, and planning to take over the world.. what is "interesting".. I looked over cff's website.. there is a noticable absence of any link or reference to sowers and such.. and the fellow-laborers page has practically no reference to v2p2. Their history of him leaves him running a "twig" in his old home town.. methinks MAYBE somebody "woke up" in the organization?

Thanks RumRunner! Of course I want to - - that's all the fun is being able to play these things right away. I'm not sure which one you saw....so juist for giggles sake.....please click on the last one I did....the one below here where I did it correctly - - because that's the other one that I found so funny.

Thanks Krys - BTW when you do an embed from youtube - go to edit options (on GSC) and select HTML auto line break mode - well if you want to.

Please turn your volume up a little and listen carefully :) sorry - - - I need a do-ever

Well, they have to fulfill that old "prophesy" (cough), that the "word" will live as long as there are members of the Wierwille family "standing". (whatever that means.)

Didn't an invasion like this happen in Australia once? Farmers didn't til the fields or something . . . Perhaps a foreshadow of things to come . . .

Leadership has great manners. Elizabeth Post would be proud. Hannibal Lecter has good manners too.

In my former splinter group (River Road Fellowship as led by V. Barnard) we did the whole, "We are a whole world unto ourselves, isolated in a rural area" thing and it $ucked bigtime. Every perception of truth was tightly controlled by the supposed Apostle. It seemed to me like over time things just got more and more warped. Eventually it was heresy to even question such "apostolic" blunders as him teaching the Lord would return in 1997, 2000, uh er...2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, and even the latest that I've heard on the grapevine 2011. Not to mention the oppressive atmosphere which led to such unfortunate things as teenage girls announcing in fellowship that,"I am married to the Christ in Victor." So while they constantly congradulate themselves among themselves it seems pretty obvious to me that they only grew more dangerous and absurd as time went on. And I really don't think they'd openly come around GSC to state their case either, but they'd say it was because of all they "unbelief" here at GSC I'm sure. But I am certain it is because that even though they imagine themselves to be winners that they would simply be confronted for what they really are. I feel justified in my concerns for Caleb and his fellows.

So without further response from Caleb is this how we are to see this exchange end? One young man takes a small step out of the Mississipi swamp and into a place where all his beliefs he must knew may be challeged. He gives an aggressive post with a direct threat while claiming he will be handling questions and conversations for months to come. And as soon as a teany little bit of heat arrives he steps out, omly to never be heard from again. OMG I would like to believe the young man is o.k., but nobody that knows anything is saying! Is he being shut in with a bunch of faithful for a patented TWI style "healing". Are they mad at us enough to foolishly desire to carry out the feelings of anger in the initial post? Is the young man strong enough to realize that our intentions were for his own good and it may be that his "manoGod" is the real villain? But even though v2p2 may well be carrying out that role I do personally feel compassion for a young man who himself has been indoctrinated into his supposed life's purpose. TOO MANY QUESTIONS, TOO FEW ANSWERS. IMO

Thanks so much, all of you. :)

thank you sweet potato i just apologized to you on another thread i feel bad

that's a good thing, excie!

thank you

ok ok, so we'll say it's a work of fiction based on a true story with all the "negative" parts left out, unlike Kristin's book seriously though, my point was they can't have it both ways.

Maybe "Rita" should click on this link.

It may not just be "Innies" posting such reviews. I have seen posts here that reflect such reasoning by people who have claimed not to have read the book. It could be people out of TWI but who are still into VP and TWI doctrine.

I was just browsing amazon and saw that a couple of twi innies left scathing reviews of the book and questioned Kristin's ability to remember events that happened so long ago. hell, I remember my 3rd birthday party and that was longer ago than Kristin's experiences. I remember hundreds of events from my childhood before I reached the age of 10. I even know why my parents divorced and I was only 4, because as an adult the events I witnessed that seemed to mean nothing through a child's eyes make perfect sense as an adult. the attempts to question Kristin's memory are laughable, and predictable, and one of the tactics they used on me when I was an innie to make me doubt my every thought. I can't wait to read her book. I just bought it for myself as a winter solstice present.

"Submitting" such as Kristen had to do, to stay in "fellowhip"; to prove that she was still "spiritually mature", was apparently so established that she did not outwardly question what she was asked/told to do, and in turn submitted any doubts that arose in her mind to the doctrine that if the man of God says it's OK, then it's good. But I find it interesting, according to what she wrote, that a flag went up right away when she came across VPW's writings on Hitler and the Holocaust. I think that finding and reading those writings (I'd sure like to hear more from her on this) helped her realize that she was being abused. Anyway, I'm sure that starter of this thread could say a lot about those writings.

reading the few above posts, it's really a shame i didn't know more of "the word" lol (it wouldn't have mattered really, i thought he / they knew more than i) too used to obeying father figures, i guess although my mom's love and my own common sense kept me pulling away -- grossed out in a sense but always doubting myself

and some older ones too. Just kidding, Rascal, I don't really believe you are 900 years old. On the male side, that goes along with the term "loosening up".

I understand that was the official version. The term was used for many purposes, to flatter, cajole, and also to threaten, reprove, and as a "put-down." WG

WG, I was giving the official version. Just like any predator, child molester, etc...they have *secrets* with their victims. They make them feel special, so that the dirty little secret is kept from public view, from the people or athorities that would recognize the exploitation. When feeling special doesn`t work, then manipulation and intimidation is used to ensure continued silence. It takes years and years sometimes to come to recognize the betrayal.

How can someone teach out one side of his mouth that God's Word is so simple even a child can understand it, and then teach out of the other side you have to be "spiritually mature" to REALLY understand it? I may not have been spiritually mature or a graduate of the Way Corps, but I can smell a load of BS 50 miles this side of the state legislature when the wind blows in the right direction, and that was pure BS. The first time I heard it was in Charleston, and I still don't like and I never did. WG

Keith, my husband was a college WOW in Bloomington in the mid 70s. Others: I haven't read the book and probably won't. It seems as if most of the major abuse took place in the upper ranks - not that the lower ranks didn't try. Although it seemed to me that the closer you were to a limb, the more structured things were. When we went from living down the street from limb headquarters to over an hour away, things lightened up considerably. I talked to our corp grad branch leaders about the sex thing and they said they were unaware of what was going on with leadership. As far as the teaching about sex in the corp was that penetration wasn't allowed, but other means of pleasuring one another were ok. I thought it was a pretty fine line, but since I wasn't so "spiritually developed", I just called it wrong.

I know it wasn't me. I left TWI then, but I didn't leave Bloomington. I was born here, and and except for college, and WOW, have been here since 1955 when I was born. I'm thankful that most people did thing I belittling Kristen. It was a good book and would be useful for anyone who has gone through any kind of religious abuse.

Evan!...Haven't seen you in awhile...How are you my friend? ...Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I know someone who left Bloomington at that time, but you can't be him if you left then, because he came up to Indy where i saw a lot of him during my apprentice corps year. I don't think you are belittling Kristen at all. Whether it was God working in her heart, or her better judgement, it was eclipsed by having to do what God says, which in her case was what the man of God said. From her point of view, saying no to staying in, or specifically to what she was told to do, was walking away from God.

hi, keith vp weirwille himself said "things are to be used. people are to be loved." but he did not practice that sad

I had a little more reflection on this point, which I just expressed on the 8th corps thread. If we think about how someone nearby was hurting while we were having fun, self restraint wont be needed, or at least not as much.

An overdue response here; I think Oldies has a valid point, and that is what I was thinking of when I talked about Kristen's book not being a lecture. I really can't fault her in the least for the comment Oldies quoted.

I loved Kristen's writing style. I felt as if I were with her through all of her tragedies. She wrote just like most of us were trained to think. I loved/hated those parts because I relived a major part of my life through her writing. " The assurance I seek is in the Word. I try to feel it. I try to grasp the meaning until my mind aches.", pg 109. How many of us have done that? Trying so hard to make things make sense, but of course, don't rely on our 5 senses. blah blah blah.... Kristen, I am so saddened that you endured all the physical, mental, and sexual abuse throughout most of your life. BUT I am very thankful that you were able to get professional help. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for telling it like it hasn't been told since the first century. Sorry, I just had to say that. Seriously, people need to know the truth. If you help just one person see VP (and others) for the lowlife that he was, I think it is worth it. I have said in other threads that TWI did not ruin my life, and it didn't. I made several decisions (based on TWI teachings or recommendations) that I have lived to regret however. I am so sorry for what so MANY precious Christians and others suffered at the hands of The Way International organization's bigwigs and littlewigs, mog wannabees, etc..

I just got this book for a birthday present from a dear friend who is also ex-twi. She said it is great and she could not put it down. She finished it at 2am Sunday. I will join the discussion after reading it.

Sunesis Said: (QUOTE):We were little kids, so many of us raised ourselves, dad drunk when he was home, mom, distant - so many of us kids were on our own at a young age. We did cut school and hop the train into the city with our buddies to hang in Tompkins Square park, our older brothers and sisters did drive us to the city, we did basically what we wanted. Many kids rarely saw their parents 'cause the parents were always out, traveling - that one kid's house that was being renovated, parents in Spain - definitely happened alot. We travelled in little gangs. I guess my point is, we were so ripe for the pickin'. Here came the father figure with the offer of the godly family who really loved you. Hanging at someone's apartment in the City, but this time as part of a loving group, with the older kids - really, it just didn't get any cooler. What an amazing intro, she captures the times and feel so well. We were so young, on our own, searching. WOW - after 35 years it's starting to make sense. Just A WEEK AGO a friend asked me why I think I wound up in a cult. It's been something I've been trying to figure out since 1986 when I left. My family thought it was because I broke up with a boyfriend of 4 years - I knew that wasn't the reason. I was the "older sibling" going into the City, etc., raising myself and my siblings. I was a "groovy christian" from the Bronx - about 25 miles south of Rye in 1973 - just missing the Dr. driving into town on his Harley days (which, of course, we all heard about - it was a legend) Thanks Sunesis - I believe that's it - the father figure that was missing. My father was not an alcoholic (although my mother probably was in those days, it was hard to tell - with the scotch on the rocks every night. It was "normal". BUT my father was Manic Depressive, hospitalized about every 3 years. My sister was Schizophrenic and committed suicide in 1967 at the age of 18 (I was 17 at the time). I was always SO proud of myself for NOT being mentally Ill in this mentally ill family so denied for a very LONG time that the Way was a cult, as that would make me less on a strong, independent person to join something like that. Well, we all know how that happens because we all have our own stories and reasons. But I think I'm finally seeing that I really needed that father figure or even more so, stabalization and focus in my life at that time. And what do you know.....there was "The Way". Thanks Kristen for the help and insight you are givng to the rest of us, along with(I'm sure) you're own healing.

thanks sunesis, very well said

I see some connections here, even though I somehow dont feel too comfy discussing this, even though Kris has told about it. A child who is molested can be confused, knowing it doesn't feel right, but not tell anyone because of 1) shame, and 2) the person commiting the act had never done anything bad to her/him before. A young adult can have the same feelings, the main difference being the authority figure commiting the act is a trusted man of God, so it must be right. In either case, it is something that should be understood by anyone who is tempted to gripe about the victim waiting years before telling about the abuse, if he or she can ever overcome these feelings enough to ever tell about it. I am sure there are quite a few people waiting in line to tell the next person who makes that gripe a thing or two, but I'll get in that line.

I'm not sure why Lynn still insists on holding to the twi myth of "teaches the word as it hasn't been known since the first century" crap. John, if you're reading this, do you still believe in the "snow on the gas pumps" story too? Everything wierwille taught can be found in the writings of the men that wierwille stole from. Ever read Bullinger's "How to enjoy the bible"? It is almost EXACTLY like reading the pfal book...only difference was that Bullinger wrote it decades before wierwille did. All Veepee did was take, what he considered to be the best theology, from a half dozen or so Christian writers...put it together in a homogenous way and then stamp his own name on it, taking bows as the MOG. Whole sections of RTHST were lifted, word for word from "what's his name's" book. (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody can name him pretty quick). Even if you say that wierwille putting together these different portions of theology from different writers, was God leading him to these things and teaching him to put it all together as he did...Why did wierwille take credit for someone elses work? It was dishonest and egotistical...Is that the heart that God selected to reveal this great truth too? To be our "teacher" and screw our women? wierwille was as phoney as a three dollar bill and JAL is not doing his own organization any favors by clinging to that old rotted vine. I would suggest, that if there are certain portions of twi doctrine that you still believe are true...then give credit to the men who ORIGINALLY committed it to book form. Present it as an evolution of theological discoveries by numerous Christian writers, and then maybe people would find it more digestable...rather than continuing the "myth of the man", who was, actually no more than a grifter with delusions of grandeur...

It's been 20 years this month that I was sent to Long Island as a WOW and here I still am!