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You might ask yourself, "How did I get here?"

Every now and again, someone still claims that pfal and twi were special. Their reason for this is the claim that vpw was special. Their reason for this is the 1942 promise. vpw claimed he received a promise from God Almighty in 1942, and he used this claim to justify thinking of "his" books and classes to akin to the Bible itself. The supposition that pfal was of significant long-term benefit hangs primarily on the alleged "1942 promise." That promise, as stated by vpw, was that God spoke audibly to vpw, and promised that God Almighty would teach vpw God's Word ;like it hadn't been known since the first century (AD) if vpw would teach it to others. vpw supposedly asked God to confirm this by a miraculous snowstorm. All right, how many ways can we show this 1942 promise failed? We've done it lots of times before, this is mostly compilation. A) The miraculous snowstorm never happened. There was NO report of actual snow anywhere near where this allegedly happened. When it supposedly happened, he didn't even tell his own wife it happened. Come on, that would have been the first words out of any spouse's mouth that evening. ("Honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today...") He never claimed it until decades later. He couldn't keep the details of the miraculous event straight, even. When he first began making this claim, he said the sky looked BLACK with all the heavy snow. This, BTW, isn't what it looks like for even the heaviest snow. Later-probably because he learned that doesn't happen- he switched to saying the sky was WHITE with snow. I'm sure details can get lost over time, but if a miraculous event that turns the sky all one color, you'd at least remember the color. Finally, this wasn't the only time vpw claimed a miraculous snowstorm. In fact, he did it whenever it was convenient. When he added special significance to the minister's conference where he met Stiles, vpw claimed that the entire city was snowed in completely. He was unable to get out because planes, trains and buses were all stopped due to heavy snow conditions, a blizzard. This was a rather big lie, and one that was checkable. When someone spoke to him about it, he didn't say "I was there and saw the snow and walked in it, check again", he immediately switched his story to prevent trying to contradict the weather report. He immediately began claiming the snow was an angelic apparition- angels made him see snow that wasn't there, and when he phoned transit places, angels answered the phone and lied to him. (He would rather have us think angels lied than that he lied.) In reality, not even a single FLAKE fell from the sky in that city that day, and the temperature didn't reach freezing. This wasn't the last time vpw made up a convenient snowstorm, even. A poster here once noted that vpw was supposed to visit their area. Instead, he phoned and said that he WANTED to fly there, but he was located at a bad snowstorm and he was told it was unsafe. The poster checked the weather in vpw's area at the time, and there was neither snow nor storms predicted. So, the entire snow part was a lie. Without that, there's no 1942 promise. However, even if it was possible for there to have been a snowstorm (it's not possible), the other problems with his story would be enough to discredit it. There WAS no 1942 promise. vpw was NEVER some great one. pfal was NEVER some great class nor great study materials. It was all built up as a con-and not the most secure con, either. It needed lots of outside help to prop it up.

There's a certain futility in answering you in according to your posts, Mike, and Rocky acknowledged that. He also pointed out that, once again, you hijacked a thread. Unlike you, the rest of us can learn from each other, and read and respond to each other's posts accordingly. With you, it's always "what can I pick and choose from what they said and use to push my agenda", so you tend to miss the content, and sometimes who posted it. (I never posted about John the Baptizer's diet nor his outfit, someone else did.) It's a lot like how John Lynn would "advertise" here and refuse to post in threads. He'd post the initial post and run off, or have someone else post something to us, and insist all communications with him be by phone. Whenever someone phoned him, they'd be subjected to a continuous ad of "take my classes and buy my book." In between, he'd criticize us anonymously and pretend he wasn't advertising to us, wink-wink- as if it wasn't plainly obvious to EVERYONE. Looking back, I honestly think he thought we didn't notice, so everybody but him got what was going on and why his advertising wasn't translating into increased sales. There's a lesson there, for those ready to receive it.

No, what I'm describing is a perfect God dealing with fallible human beings. You mean to tell me, God, in his foreknowledge couldn't see that errors would creep in and couldn't adjust the text accordingly? If your claim is true, then you just nullified the reason for PLAF. God would have gotten it right the first time and there would be no need for revision or God having to waste his time sticking around helping the reader get the right interpretation.

I agree! hey let's do a sideways off-topic of off-topic - check out Bonnie Raitt's version of Burning Down the House

Wierwille's personal doctrine was "Anything is okay if you can find a way to personally rationalize it." In contrast, consider, if you will, the words of John Donne: “No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

Sodomitic session sounds like something one might register and make an appointment for. No child signs up for rape. The linguistic acrobatics of rape apologetics are evil.

The questions are rhetorical. Of course, Christ doesn't require ceremony and ritual to do his work. Indeed, his presence is completely substantial. Let all churches dispense with the antiseptic verbiage of rape apologetics. Let them allow Christ to work through them so that they never again commit the linguistic crime that is "sodomitic session." Let the priestly class stop obfuscating and condescending. Let them describe their activities as they are: Rape.

David B is a musical gene-yoos...imo.

I don't really think mike understands what the Bible actually is or isn't and is left with vics fundamentalist view, leaving him scrambling around to make sense of it all. If you follow st vics plagaraized view then you are left with a hot mess of what Bulllinger believed and he mashes up a bunch of dispensationalism into the mix. Bullinger has some cool ideas and he has some really crazy ones too. He is seriously a mixed bag. So with viewing scripture through that lens one is left with a distorted view of reality and that tends to cause people to have to come up with some sort of fiction to make the concept jive with reality.....or redefine reality into a highly structured, heavily micro managed alternater reality - in the case of HQ, gunnison, etc.

Not sure who knows this...but: There is water at the bottom of the ocean. This one right here...prob my fav song form them of all time.

My intent only was to inject a moment of perspective into the mix.

Not rude at all. Mike is hopelessly spinning on the hamster wheel of PFAL. His spinning is evidence in favor of this thread's proposition - that PFAL sucks.

Don't you mean the reader's interpretation of the author's interpretation of what the author meant? That's why there's so many different term papers and dissertations on what the white whale in Moby Dick means. Interestingly enough, if you asked Melville why a white whale, he'd probably shrug his shoulders and say, "It sounded good."

Your statements imply an intermediary step – the reader’s mind. Some helpful information IS in the Bible - one can use some of the keys suggested by Bullinger in How to Enjoy the Bible – like paying attention to immediate context, remote context…but some of his ideas were bogus like to whom is it addressed, dispensationalism. But still – what is implied is that it’s up to the reader to use his mental faculties to note the context, remote context…but for a deeper understanding of the biblical languages, cultures, theological themes, ancient worldviews, political settings, etc. one will have to consult legitimate sources outside the Bible…and of course the reader should still exercise cognitive skills when analyzing any information – to see if the source uses good standards of scholarship, logic, etc. your saying "The Bible interprets itself ...means the source of information that is helpful to us doing the interpretation comes from within the Bible itself." does not make sense. you're redefining a screwy theory to make it compatible with the evidence.

that depends. if it is running on a small circular track it is likely to be somewhere close to where it started.

Super secret my a$$ pennies! I'm calling bullshonta.

IIRC, it was around 1953 that he encountered both Leonard's class and Stiles' book (and Leonard and Stiles.) Yes, a decade after that, with him showing no real success in his ministry- at least as HE measured success. Once he encountered Leonard's class and Stiles' book, that changed. He taught a class identical to Leonard's and printed a book identical to Stiles', with later versions of each actually adding changes. What vpw taught was based almost entirely on a mix of what other people taught first- Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon.... Yes, his stealing from Leonard and Stiles was pretty prompt. He turned around within months of exposure to each and made their clones.

And great post T-Bone. Cult mentality from Wierwille dismissed "world wisdom" but there's SO much to know beyond what the cultist wanted us to explore. I think of Proverbs 2:1-5 His cult mentality was so limiting and insecure, IMO. Limiting GOD, for sure. As I've shared in other threads on GSC, read classic literature. It can help expand your imagination which can greatly enhance your understanding and wisdom of people, how they (we) can enhance each other's lives AND our understanding of God. The Apostle Paul wasn't afraid to engage with people in the realm of "world wisdom." Btw, what's the Body of Christ analogy all about if not for understanding how we interact and enhance each other's lives?

When I got involved in the mid-70s.........the pitch was "This PFAL Class has the keys to understanding the Bible, God's Word. Dr. Wierwille has put this class together from decades of researching the Scriptures to help anybody and everyone who wants to receive holy spirit into manifestation and see the power of God in their lives." Like so many things.......the messaging was evolving. But back then, in my state........there was major emphasis on receiving holy spirit into manifestation so that I could have the power of God when I needed it most. Very little emphasis was put on wierwille's "1942 promise"..........but on the fact that wierwille had researched the Word of God and put it together like no one else. Obviously, in my youth and busy college life.......I never took the time to research wierwille's background and discover the blatant plagiarism nor did I take the time to uncover many, major spiritual truths and works of study by Kenyon, Jones, Bullinger, others, etc. It seems to me.......1) Adulation for Dr. Wierwille was a subtle portion of the end result of the pfal class. Then, when I went to the rock of ages............people would swoon when Dr. Wierwille was near. The mystique of wierwille had engulfed twi. And, for many............it's still there! By 1981-1984........bodyguards were positioned along the roa main stage when wierwille was present. Bodyguards? With ear pieces and covert communication amongst a team of security? Why? Oh, that's right.......the devil spirits were always trying to get to "the man of God." Evolution of Unbridled Adulation.......wierwille was treated like a pharaoh or something. An entourage of servants were at his beck and call. Wierwille basked in the wayworld that he created. He smoked at the head dining room table whenever he wanted. He sipped his Drambuie at night owls or other late night corps meetings. One of those evening sessions, at the Emporia Campus.......wierwille abruptly stated that he wanted all the corps to come back in 20 minutes in their pajamas and bathrobes. And, we did!!!!! Of course, it was seen as "Wow, he just wants to have a casual, fireside get-together with his corps. How cool is that?" To this day......there are people who idolize their memories of wierwille. When GSC discusses serial plagiarism or wierwille's sexual predation......there is vehement pushback from many defenders. Even lots and lots of corps refute these things discussed here at GSC that tarnish their memories of vpw. They never saw or heard this stuff during their corps experience. Martindale? Yes, but not wierwille. Wierwille was a smooth operator. He was the father figure to a displaced youth. Blind trust. He established an inner circle that were fiercely loyal and secret. And, if you couldn't be 1) loyal and 2) secret.......you couldn't be AROUND wierwille.

VPW wouldn't know church history if it hit him like a steamroller. What year did he start teaching PFAL - I mean, before the recording of that dreadful video class. When did he steal it from Stiles and start teaching it as his own? Was that 1942 or somewhat later? You know, what attracted me to PFAL was (1) the WoW who witnessed to me could show me Bible verses to support what he said and (2) when he prayed, things happened. They really did, things that just "shouldn't have." He loved and believed God. Unfortunately that had become tangled in TWI baggage. I'd been reading in Acts and had wondered to myself, "These people had power, they prayed and things happened; they asked, and amazing things took place. What happened to that power? Why isn't it still here? Why don't I see that nowadays? When did it all stop happening?" And then I met this WoW. And the rest is history.

B) The alleged promise was a lie. Supposedly, God Almighty promised He would teach like it hadn't been known since the 1st century AD. If this were true, there would be a complete disconnect with what was being taught and known elsewhere in 1942 EVERYWHERE and what vpw later taught (because we know he taught others.) However, even those who idolize vpw agree that the material he taught was already taught by others. A paper trail can be traced for virtually all the twi material vpw taught. vpw took Leonard's class, and a few months later, taught 100% of the same material. vpw bought Stiles' book, then typed up a book with the contents- later adding the contents of books by Bullinger to flesh it out more. And so on. So, either God Almighty lied when giving this promise, someone else claiming to be God lied and vpw couldn't tell the difference between a lying spirit and God Almighty, or vpw lied and nobody promised him at all. C) The alleged promise was based on ignorance. twi's system shares a trait with the Mikean system- they're both Gnostic systems based on secret knowledge. The twi system-which was vpw's system, set up by him and used by him all the time- was that study of the verses was the key to God (plus the "Law of Believing"),. So, the more you study the verses, the more "godly" you can become, especially if you study it the twi way. We've all seen far too many horror stories of twi "masters" who partly memorized vpw/twi materials and were bigger schmucks if anything. Geer spent hours going over vpw's teachings in between drugging women for vpw to rape and preparing to throw himself over vpw as a human shield if anyone tried to shoot him. But, let's expose the IGNORANCE in the alleged "promise." How DID the 1st century Christian church know God's Word? They knew the Torah/Old Testament. They knew the SPOKEN word, They knew The Word BY EXPERIENCE AND POWER. Think about it. They were getting converts left and right while being a disciple was ILLEGAL and punished by imprisonment, murder, or both. They got LOTS of converts with that going on. No amount of charismatic demagoguery can make up for the risk of being killed or imprisoned. You might get a few disaffected outsiders. Saul of Tarsus joined them - a former persecutor and murderer of Christians (he didn't put his hand on the knife, but he ordered it done.) Did the Greeks hear good speeches then run out and conclude that their gods walked among them and prepared to offer blood sacrifices? They SAW something. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. However, provide the extraordinary proof, and the claims stop looking extraordinary-at least in comparison to the proof. The 1st century Christians preached-but were known because they had power and could deliver where they spoke. Lots of people preached and didn't get significant converts. Theirs was a pragmatic, direct, power-based ministry. twi was never that. They were study-based, and TALKED ABOUT power lots of times, then considered "Kojacking" a significant witness of "power." 1st century Christians were never centrally-controlled nor organized. twi bore no resemblance to 1st century Christianity except where twi CLAIMED they did. But all the claims don't mean reality matches a claim. The 1st century Christians probably didn't have access to the entire New Testament ANYWHERE. All documents had to be hand-copied. With no printing press and no scanners and PDFs, that was a laborious process and few copies circulated for the 1st century AD (certainly relative to now.) So, twi has NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." because vpw NEVER had "The Word as it was known in the 1st Century." vpw might have known that when he phrased the promise he was supposedly given, but he skipped over "Church history". So, he was likely to make such a mistake where God Almighty would not. vpw made up the alleged 1942 promise. and it's easy to show all the errors. There was no such promise. There's no real, sensible reason to laud vpw or "his" books. They don't comrpise "revelation."