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In respect to those buried there,this thread is not about them,It is about what we thought was so great about the cornfield, woods.To me I liked the woods,but have been in much better,we were TOLD It was a spiritual place,It was our home we were told it was ours,we could come at any time,I went there during roa cause it was quiet. Same as the rest of the grounds,we were told we could enjoy the fountain....Well comes reality we were lied to..... Shame on them...The concept was sold to us,hook line and sinker... Would I go back to the area?Yes just in twis little area and if I did go down wierwillie road and linders little band followed me,I might have someone in the car take pictures,harrassment ya know. The woods,the grounds were like olympus where the old gods lived a myth,In reality it was all a fable wierwillie and his merry band made up.

I'm sure that there will be posters who try to be nice to you and explain what they think you are missing when making your misguided comments. I'm not one of them. Like most of the pinheaded drive-by posters who swoop in here with advice and observations, you pop in with your knee-jerk ignorant, rude remarks as if there's some deep wisdom behind them. Pathetic topic? It speaks directly to the tendency of some Way leaders to expect the rank & file to do all the grunt work while they sit above the fray spouting disconnected scriptures.You have a problem with the use of the term "Corpse" for Way Corps? Too bad...it demonstrates how many of us feel about the Way Corps program...which I'm sure we can all spell correctly. Watch the "therapy" remarks, by the way, it's against the rules of the forum. You don't think that weird dancing was funny? Frightening maybe, and Rocky Horror of the Spirit...jeez, lighten up. Bitterness? Just callin' 'em like we see 'em. So, now that you've confirmed that all of us ex-wayfers are possessed, why don't you run along back to your cult.

Sometime in the early 1980s I was diagnosed with a disease called sarcoidosis. It was in the lymph nodes in my lungs. I was told it could get better, stay the same, or get worse and eventually kill me. I had started a new job, and I dickered around with my coworkers and ended up going to the opening Sunday of ROA, flying home Monday morning, and being at work on Tuesday. Mr. Garden stayed the entire week. Once we had his tent set up, I went to the House of His Healing Presence, and I stayed there until I KNEW I was healed. It may have been hours, I don't know. Four months later, an x-ray showed no progress of the disease. Six months after that it was gone. Think what you will, I know God put His healing hand on me that day. WG

McMullan called the News cameras out of Lima. They did interviews with twi before the incident happened I believe. Everyone new he was coming. There Sheriff's deputies were waiting. Everyone knew that you could call HQ to visit. There are a lot of dangerous yahoos who would also like to get on grounds freely. There are children who live there. On the news I don't remember McMullan talking about a mom's baby. He talked about his relationship with vpw I thought. He looked like a looney. (Not that Lima News made twi look any good either.) If there was a large enough demand I would think twi would set aside even a parking spot for visitors of the sites. They still spend time caring for the Way Woods and fountain because they are grave sites.

I would be very interested in how you get this - strange or not.

Nothing that happens to you, matters very much, or lasts very long; but the way you take it, matters a lot, and will last forever

I think I've read a few times here posters saying that twi claimed to be christian. I don't recall ever claiming to be a christian as a wayfer. "christian" was taught to be a derogatory term. We viewed all trinitarians as worshipers of a different god. We used the term "believer" but I don't think it was to be equated as "christian". We basically believed christians were against the teachings of the bible. They were deluded and weak. twi claims to be "followers of the Lord Jesus Christ" but believes christians follow "a different jesus" "Christians should be prosperous" is about the only publication that comes to mind with the word "christian". But that was an earlier work wasn't it? It could be seen in modern way-world as a back-hand to those "weak, powerless christians". In fact, every now then I hear a wayfer talk about how they visited a church and they comment on how the church people have "no power" , how they are "two-dimensional", just no "depth to their being". I don't think a wayfer wants to be equated with christianity.

I never recalled anyone in TWI downgrading the term Christian. We just never used the term alot, even though I considered myself to be one. Our thing was Believer, Family and or Household. If you were a believer you were part of the Family....Household on the other hand meant something totally different. As far as I can see in the bible, there is no "household" You get born again and you are in the Family of God. They never said so called Christians weren't in the Family, to my knowledge, but you had to be in TWI and "walking the Word" to be in the household. And later I think it turned into, if you were Corps you were in the household. This is what my memory recollects..It was a long time ago since I was in TWI.....I could be wrong....

You probably took it right, the problem is that so much of what was taught in TWI was designed to hold people accountable while not being accountable. My understanding is that a fair number of people had their lives and reputations trashed by TWI and liken LCM's outcome to be somewhere in the realm of karma. Yes, there is a certain amount of rejoicing in his iniquity, but then again, he brought it on. The truth is that he could come on here, apologize, and attempt to make amends for his part in the damage done to these people's lives, but he has yet to do that. He either feels he owes no apology, or he lacks the guts to face people. Either way, it's hard to respect the guy. I, for one, am thrilled that the comments have moved beyond the scriptural accuracy doctrine genre and into what these leaders were/are really like and how this has impacted people's lives.

Yes, the superiority complex was pride, ego, and sickening. It was us deceiving ourselves, like I John talks about, saying we were walking in the light but dwelling in darkness. How many friendships, families, marriages were damaged by the pride and ego involved? TWI "believers" want to convince themselves they are better than your average Christian. However, in reality, they are far below par for you average Christian, however you measure it.

Well, waylaid, if you were the first poster to come through here making the points that you made, I'd be less confrontational. I'm usually pretty easy-going and tolerant with people of opposing viewpoints, even those who support TWI doctrine, (ask around ) but while I've been writing those 7000+ posts, I've encountered dozens of posters whose sole purpose in posting is tell us here at GS what losers we are, who invariably use the phrase "get a life" or some variation on that theme. My patience has run out. I can only hope that you ease up on the insults and contribute to the mix here, wherever you stand on the ex-TWI spectrum. You apologized...I appreciate that gesture.

Reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary I was watching earlier this week. People weren't really allowed to talk to each other. It was that isolation that kept people from comparing experiences. For all you know, all those letters might be made up. TWI just might be nothing more than a tape and a magazine sent to the few, and a few classes for those who are willing to spend the money. Cranking out nonsense to those willing to pay for nonsense.

Your words are I'm sorry AND you liken these things to a genetic fault that leads to folks having to deal with multiple misspeaking and embarasing behavior because they are beyond there own control like Tourette's syndrome. You seem to have a freaking long way to go before you ever help anybody with that tude WAYLAID. But I am glad that you wish to stick around.

What can I say Shellon? Except, no, not your leg. :) I would have preferred in your case to have been able to squash that nasty little arachnid. Dear Twinky, Here's the thing....by my own admission I don't know enough specifics of this supposed vision to comment. But as to the things that I do believe, I feel very comfortable sharing them out here in broad daylight at the GSC. And since this supposed vision has at least a few of you who are well informed I must of course defer to your judgement. On the other hand, others have went so far as to post pictures of a person completely encased with cobwebs, seemingly imobolized. And since this vision has brought up such strong images for some it seems only natural to me to relate the whole story. After all, that is fairly consistently what I do. And even though it is butt ugly obvious that some Greasespotters will never ever believe in any vision or prophecy I have also discovered that the substance of some of their objections has been substantial enough to correct others who mistakenly believe in a BAD VISION OR PROPHECY. I'll willingly admit that for me, most of these visions feel a little screwy, and that a 100% sceptic who doubts one of these things at the very least seems to have the odds in his/her favor. So I think it would be very, very cool to air the whole thing right here. Especially as even though I don't know many of the details I strongly tend to doubt in a vision that has something so creepy as to have a bug crawling out of somebodie's head. Call me crazy, but that sounds a little crazy. (edited for spelling and grammar)

"Get a life","pathetic topic",and "pretty immature". To my count that is three insults in one paragraph and that is cutting you a break, because some of your other comments may be taken as insulting too. You've set the tone sofar Waylaid, and it is not good! "bitterness", "can be like a sickness", and "way over the top"? (Sarcasm warning) OOOOOHHHH, I just feel your love, TTTHHHPPP! I suggest listening more, and typing insults no more. I'm pretty sure you actually have been insulting pretty much everybody here sofar. I do not know what you were like when you graduated the Way Corps, but if it is anything like you have been in your posts sofar (Insults and telling us how you are better than all of this) I'd be glad to say that according to your own manner you seem to me to represent some of the worst of "Way Corps" mannerisms. ok, I will. You are insulting, you have a "I'm better than you" attitude, and it is fairly easy to imagine you being able to lead only those who believe in your self promoted superiority. Around here some of us refer to these things as WAY CORPS.

Make fun of my name? Immature, like I said before. That's a character issue. I did not condemn 'everyone'. You did. You said: Simple answer is no, they hated to witness. They loved to teach. I think they liked to teach so they caould look so spiritual. Speak for yourself. I walked in other people's shoes. I graduated from the Way Corps and was not like that. No, I am not here to 'grind my axe', I just made a comment. If you have really been here for three years like your profile shows, I think you might come to the realization that you might (just might) explore another road to freedom. I am sincerely glad you think this helps - I was just making an observation. I won't bring it up with you again. I'm not the one with the 'Daddy issues' here. I went through, I saw and I left. End of story. Yes, I was screwed like you were. On to better things. 'Won't Get Fooled Again'. Is it not fair to express my opinion? Do I have to 'pig-pile' to get accepted here? That's unusual. Seriously. If I don't dump on the Way, I'm the jerk? Come on. I was just commenting that I don't see the benefit in some of these posts. Real forensic bitching at times. Go ahead - I have an open mind - explain it to me.

Thank you, Kimberly, it's just our lives and our new normal and like so many things we adapt to it, but your thoughtfulness is appreciated. For me, I struggle with my choices and re-think things that can't be changed no matter how much I re-think; it's futile mostly. I find myself most thankful for amazing children who don't also grieve the loss of a proper place where daddy is buried, who don't lament about 'why can't we move to Ohio to be closer to daddy' or any of that. They are women of strength and understanding and good, for which I'm thankful. I'm ok with having to contact someone in a TWI office if we did choose to return, simply because I do understand it is a business, a property not my own and therefore I have to extend them the courtesy. It's a part of my choice to have his remains buried there. For now, it's what we've got but we've also got a "daddy tree", a little blue spruce planted and happily growing in memory of a good husband and father. :)

"...Roy Hobbs, the best there ever was in the game." Batter up!

Groucho, my thoughts exactly. I read the posts and thought what do they have to hide? Who are these people? Then I realized it is all about the same ole control thing. Shellon, honey, my heart was torn reading your posts.

used to go on H. @llen's squirrel thinning gigs there. . . never got any did get within 10 feet of a deer . . . a deer w/ a .22, that'd be crazy It was especially gorgeous in the wintertime, with the trees hanging over that large ditch covered in snow. although in the spring that ditch would fill with water. some of us wanted to get a rubber raft . . .

Thanks, everyone, for your kind words of Bob; he did take care of his wife and family. The scenerio so strikes of TWI's lack of care and concern for an ill person on their property. Did that damn spider that bit me belong to the woods of TWI? Probably not. Were they cuplable, of course not, but I was a guest in their "home" and they took serious risks not being prepared for any possible emergency that might have arisen. Stupid action; what if it had been my child or a more immediate killing spider? Uhhuh. I learned some great and painful things beyond having to have my open wounded leg scrubbed and cut and cleaned out every day. We should ! ! have taken me to an emergency room as the wound became so obviously worse. Rather we sucked it up, and went through the motions of instructions, perhaps silently knowing something was bad wrong with my leg, minimally. We didn't, I was lucky and it won't happen again, I can say that. Additionally, had it, in fact been my child, I'd have carried her on my own back to the emergency room, regardless of any leadership's chagrine or angst. It's that parent thing, eh? My leg is fine, there is a scar to remind me to listen to my own voice even if it doesn't track with others who believe they believe better than I.

And, back when we were involved with the cult, we believed it when the trustees said that we were always welcome at the way, that there were no strangers there, that the way was OURS, the grounds were OUR HOME, and that we could take the PFAL classes for free once we were grads... I know I couldn't have imagined a time when I'd not only not be welcome at the way, but would have no desire to go there 5 or 6 times every year! I was floored to hear people couldn't just go visit their loved ones buried in the woods - seems that was the last nail on the twi coffin for me. I don't even have anyone buried there - it just rattled my cage so terribly to hear that. Even for twi, that was low.

ah, it was a strange event. . . . . wasn't McMullen vpw's bodyguard? I believe we were told to stay away from him cause he knew karate and would break us in half or something.

Hi Bolshevik, I understand your comments and concerns, truly. I am aware of another parent and her own desires regarding wanting to see the burial spot of her dead child because I, too, was invited to be part of the court proceedings and before I made my decision, I researched as completely as I found possible, needed to understand motives, other involved, why, etc. I'm afraid it would be imprudent, impolite and simply rude of me to share her name here without her permission. It was given in the newspaper articles which I do not have at my disposal at the moment; perhaps I can find that for you at another time. Yes, Mr. McMullan did mention his relationship with Mr. Wierwille, as they had what was purported to be a close, kind and good relationship back in the day and Mr. McMullan was, as are so many others, appalled at the treatment he, the mother he was assisting and others like myself were handed. Since I've told Mr. McMullan straight up I can, then tell you the same here. I opted out of acting in a court of law as a witness because I would have had to involve my children in a mess that they had no more to do with than where their daddy was buried. Additionally, my inlaws were, at that time, still very involved. So my personal agenda, if there was one, was one of concern and thought, but certainly NOT without concern and thought for the reality that those same children might not be able to visit daddy's grave if they so chose. I can not, shall not, speak for Mr. McMullan but I do understand the original idea and supported it, however he got there. If he wanted publicity, I agreed to that too, to bring it to media's light, drawing attention to those that had dead buried there and no access, perhaps. Why not? Any PR is still PR and it did do some good; TWI had some questions to answer regarding such a delicate issue as grieving family members. If I were to attempt to visit a place I believed I had proper right to visit and was denied, I'm sure media would be a high enough consideration for me as well, if for no other reason than to draw attention. Heck, I'm asking media to come to a school board meeting in three weeks as I anticipate some uncomfortable Board Members that we want answers from and we believe they'll feel more required to if a camera is pointed in their direction and we're not getting anything on our own. Mr. McMullan took a shot and it didn't go exactly as planned, but he did take a shot and for that I'm grateful, as are my children. I'll assume that you do not have a loved one buried there and count you as fortunate in that regard; truly, blessed to not have to say to your children, for instance, that they can not visit a parents grave because of sheer mean-ness on the part of religious leaders. If you were to be in that place, as I am, you and I both could now answer them with something to the effect of "yes you can visit, but there is a policy in place for that particular property because it's private". (say that three times fast :) ) Best case scenerio it is not, but it's what we have and it's better than nothing. As for me and my children, we'll take it and say thank you.

Twinky, my dear, you have no future in the corps whatsoever. Are you saying it would be better to be known as the nice neighbors instead of those weirdos? Talk like normal people instead of saying your kids "prevail" in school? And you're suggesting we actually do something productive instead of sitting around pretending like anyone cares about what Rosie thinks? Oh missy, you better renew your mind if you hope to get anywhere in TWI leadership! Now go read the Blue Book until you're blue in the face. Oh, and send TWI some money. Make it a lot. In fact, skip the stupid book and just send us cash. We'll mail you a 10 (or 20 or 30) year certificate and special "super spiritual lady" pin of your very own. No need to thank me... But I would like a mint cut in four pieces please and make it snappy! ;) JT

Depends on the venue. You see all those scenes where people try to wash away the shame of being violated. Somehow I don't see that as being the issue at HQ - at least by those who are on "stage".

I left before things got that depressing, I mean exclusive.

Jeff, the reference to spidery type things comes from one of the offshoots and some visions of spiders crawling out of someone's nose. How edifying. Anyway, don't go smashing spider webs, squishing bugs, etc. Some of them are actually useful. Spider webs may catch flies that spread disease. Bugs may be, or turn into, something that is useful in the garden. It's well to be selective in what you smash down. False idols, for example. Personally I'd see TWI as a sort of fungus. Invisible for a long time, just setting down its roots. Then long time later, up pops its fruiting body (mushroom or toadstool). hat's just what you see. The real body of the plant (/) is well hidden and extremely difficult to eradicate, as you may find if you get (say) black mold in your bathroom. But even fungus, even, is useful, breaks down old trees etc and turns them into useful humus and nutrients for other plantlife. That's where the analogy breaks down. I do not know the use or value of black mold in the bathroom; nor do I know the use of much of TWI doctrine (ie, exclusively their stuff.)

Corpse might have had to work their arses off at HQ or any of the campuses, but whenever they were out on the field, many of them expected to be waited on.

I don't know about "forever."

Thanks for answering. I'm glad your life is so much better. I'm also glad you only had a day or so in residence. It just would have wasted more of your time on the road to recovery. I think I know the man you are talking about. I always had the impression his wife didn't love him. She always seemed to be annoyed at him, and I saw her cringe once when he touched her shoulder. He seemed afraid of her, like he knew he was on shaky ground. She in turn would teach and speed talk with a southern accent. I never got what was supposed to be so great about them. He rambled. In my opinion. It's interesting really. When twi wanted to mark and avoid his kid-they stopped "standing" with twi. They could dish it out but they couldn't take it. In my opinion. They only agreed when the abuse was aimed at others, even relished in it. In my opinion. Then suddenly became offended when they had to walk in the shoes of people they themselves have abused. In my opinion. He seemed to be so enamored with LCM, even put up with all those dumb Texas jokes. In my opinion, he was probably lost for a long time with no one to worship. In my opinion, this was a man with not much quality of life or integrity. Your email probably left him shaking in his shoes. Too much of a coward to apologize for abusing a woman and her son. He didn't forget what he did. He's just too weak of a man to make it right. Of course this is all just my opinion. I appreciate your posts, I think when other people realize that you recovered from this atrocity, they might think it's possible for them to recover too. Best wishes to you Bowtwi, Bow jr. and Princess.

All I want right now is input on what this statement says to you. I'm not going to offer context or anything that might bias beyond that it is not from me.

yes and no