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Hi MRAP, whether it's off topic or not, I really appreciate your honest comments and there's a lot in your post that resonates with me. I'm glad you said what you said. I was raised Roman Catholic but towards the latter years of my time in TWI it seemed like it had become more legalistic and even ritualistic than the Roman Catholics. While I'm at it - let me also say when I was a kid a lot of the mass was in Latin and that truly mystified my little mind – but you know some of the stuff VP threw out there can be just as befuddlicious (just try analyzing the great principle for starters). I also am ashamed to say (but feel it's now part of my "penance" to confess before this "congregation") what high esteem I too held VP; he spoke of the Word taking the place of the absent Christ – and there is a despicable "truth" in what he said; if I may be so bold as to paraphrase his statement – it was the word of VP that took the place of Christ in his version of Christianity. Speaking of violating the Great Commandment – I never felt so guilt ridden for trespassing the second commandment (love thy neighbor as thyself) as when it was shortly after I left TWI; I was shopping in a supermarket (this is a little weird to think of it even now) and as I walked up and down the aisles, looking at these strangers I passed - I began to cry. And I don't mean one little tear down the cheek – I mean running water! I had to leave the store because I felt like everyone was looking at me thinking this guy is having a nervous breakdown or something. I realized how much I looked down on everyone who was not in The Way and was thunderstruck by how much of an elitist….a spiritual snob I had become! For me it was like Paul knocked off his high horse on the road to Damascus (Acts 9) meets the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18). Anyway that's how I'll pitch it to the producers for the final episode of That Darn Pharisee.

In a recent thread or two, the topic of "magical thinking" came up. Someone mentioned the "law of believing" as being at least a part of magical thinking. Perhaps that's true, but that's not my understanding of the term, which I didn't make up. Neither did the so-called law of believing (or much of anything else, btw) originate with Wierwille. "Think you don't believe in magic? Think again. Our brains are designed to pick up on patterns: Making connections helped our ancestors survive. You're not crazy if you're fond of jinxes, lucky charms, premonitions, wish fulfillment, or karma. You're just human." We (former followers of Wierwille) were simply hoodwinked into believing that Wierwille was a god (I know he didn't use that term to describe himself, but he set himself up as the god of the cult anyway) who revealed to us a new mystical experience and way of conducting our lives (the 12 manifestations of pneuma hagion). He thus claimed it was something the First Century Church did and HE could show us how to live like that in the 20th (i.e. the blue book). Magical thinking is further described, Magical thinking springs up everywhere. Some irrational beliefs ... are passed on to us. But others we find on our own. Survival requires recognizing patterns—night follows day, berries that color will make you ill. And because missing the obvious often hurts more than seeing the imaginary, our skills at inferring connections are overtuned. No one told Wade Boggs that eating chicken before every single game would help his batting average; he decided that on his own, and no one can argue with his success. We look for patterns because we hate surprises and because we love being in control. Emotional stress and events of personal significance push us strongly toward magical meaning-making. Lancaster University psychologist Eugene Subbotsky relates an exemplary tale. "I was in Moscow walking with my little son down a long empty block," he recalls. Suddenly a parked car started moving on its own, then swerved toward them, and finally struck an iron gate just centimeters away. "We escaped death very narrowly, and I keep thinking magically about this episode. Although I'm a rational man, I'm a scientist, I'm studying this phenomenon, there are some events in your life that you cannot explain rationally. Under certain circumstances I really feel like someone or something is guiding my life and helping me." (Personally I would have felt like something was trying to kill me and needed to work on its aim.) --------- When I was young, something like Subbotsky experienced would, partly because of twi dogma (dealing with the adversary), have scared the crap out of me. If we are indoctrinated into a subculture that obsesses over the devil, of course we're going to infer that the devil's trying to kill us. But are there rational explanations when things like that happen? "... you are wired to find meaning in the world, a predisposition that leaves you with less control over your beliefs than you may think. Even if you're a hard-core atheist who walks under ladders and pronounces "new age" like "sewage," you believe in magic." At this time, I simply recognize and understand that Wierwille provided a framework to susceptible (mostly) young people based on known psychological/motivational techniques. In so doing, those of us who got caught up in it looked at the world through his framework. I also do not believe that Wierwille's framework constituted Christianity, even though he used biblical terms and verses to teach it and justify it. There are other so-called Christian flavors that diverge immensely from the nugget that Jesus set forth in Matt 22:36-40. Namely, Dominionism. And yet, I am confident that some people actually did connect with a more genuine Christianity via (in spite of) TWI. To me, the epitome of Wierwille's pathologic narcissism is wrapped up in his advanced class teaching on keys to walking in the spirit. Wouldn't it be fair to characterize those keys as license to do what you want and claim what's really your own "inner voice" giving you that permission and you think it's really God? ------------ I recall a time sitting in the BRC at HQ, during the summer of the 9th corpse's first year in residence, with Wierwille. He, of course, was holding forth in a relaxed, matter of fact manner. I mentioned something about Patrick Henry, the 18th century American who declared, "give me liberty or give me death." Wierwille about went ballistic, thinking I had referred to Thomas Paine. Paine's name was familiar, but I didn't recall the significance at the time. And I didn't understand why it would make him angry. Now I do. Besides being almost singlehandedly responsible for inciting the American Revolution, Paine's essay on, The Age of Reason, drew extreme ire from clergy of his time because it superstition and magical thinking head on.

"I was hungry and thirsty for love without the slightest idea where to find it." -- Acts 29. I think this issue has been bubbling just under the surface of GSC for years. Not being Corps or ex-Corps, I have no dog in the fight. But a bunch of posts over the last couple of days have really got me thinking about this, so I'm going to throw this out there as a conversation starter. TWI is an institution. That is, it is an organization with a structure. I think a majority of us got involved in TWI out of a genuine hunger and thirst for righteousness. Unfortunately, we came to an organization that had its own agenda. Those who wanted to go WOW or Corps did so, I think, out of a genuine desire to serve. But "service" was defined by TWI, and especially in the case of those who went Corps, those who wanted to serve became an arm of the organization. Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point to we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it? Or is that the wrong question to ask? Am I using the wrong words? Can you phrase it better? I am torn between looking at Corps as the epitome of TWI's victims vs. the epitome of what made TWI oppressive in the first place. For me, a conclusion is not required. But as I said, I thought it would make for an interesting conversation.

Today, I'd like to examine twi's collapse in another way. Rather than pointing out the obvious culprits [for the 10 thousandth time].....cult, commune, lockstep, pyramid, authoritarian, cult of personality, scam, wierwille's death, etc. What would have built long-lasting strength and faithfulness? 1) Each born-again individual is a wonder of God --- no cloning 2) The institution of marriage --- each marriage is to be strengthened and special 3) The institution of family ----- personal, private, boundaries, traditions 4) The institution of education -- and higher education opens doors of advancement 5) The institutions of community and neighbor -- help and uplift with compassion 6) The institution of wealth and privilege -- of whom much is given, much is required 7) Foundation of love & independence -- go forth in love, remember your roots 8) From generation to generation --- put your faith in the hands of God Did wierwille really think that his pfal class would sustain and animate our attention and loyalty for the next 60 years? How could he possibly been SO misguided? The only answer that seems to make any sense of this is.....wierwille's narcissism. Wierwille attempted to build twi on the pillars of individuals......ermal, harry, george jess, dorothy, rhoda, etc. as if we would somehow be fixated on their "great works" a lifetime. And then, wierwille's own son, Don, gets his Doctorate in Education.....but comes back to lead everyone else into this commune way of living?? Huh? Why clip the wings of the growing, maturing youth? Why the subversion of independent thought, goals, and achievements in the real world? Heck, the "institution of church" doesn't even begin to define its significance in such terms. Kids grow up, go to college, move away....so what? Is there any wonder why it collapsed so quickly? The institutions of society that have been built from generation to generation can withstand quite a bit of stress before collapse, but twi had no such adequate pillars in place.

Skyrider, thanks for starting this thread and your comments. Bolshevik, thanks for the link to the characteristics of a cult leader – that's like the TV Guide for Grease Spot. Don't Worry, your details from the anals of TWIstory are always a lot to take in – for me it's another bitter pill to swallow but also necessary treatment for Way-brain; thankfully the cure is not worse than the disease! I've said this before – that VP's doctrine and lifestyle were like a virus – a wormlike infection to the unsuspecting mind – and it's my opinion that any offshoots of TWI pose the same risk of contagion. From what I've read on viruses – I understand they are parasitic and I will now use an Amplified Bible technique to "expound" the greatness of this: the virus (PFAL) attaches to a host cell (the mind of a PFAL student), injects its genetic material into the cell (the student absorbs the essential elements to replicate the mindset of VP) ), then the host cell (the mind of the PFAL student) uses the genetic material (essential elements to replicate the mindset of VP) to make new viruses (hopefully the new PFAL grad will want to run more PFAL classes) ; when the infected cell reproduces (PFAL grad shares what they know / witnesses, etc.) – it's not always an exact copy – so there's mutations which can either weaken or strengthen the virus....I do apologize - that wound up being more complicated then the great principle. I see a lot of similarities in how my mind initially absorbed the PFAL material and as my involvement developed – and being encouraged to "make it my own" the "infection" took hold - it spread and mutated. It's not just studying or memorizing the PFAL scripture references, VP's bogus word definitions / translations / interpretations – it's also being captivated by his subtle anecdotal "messages" Skyrider and Don't Worry pointed out; thus VP has succeeded in heading off at the pass any criticism from such a devoted follower as myself. And if I've truly made PFAL my own in all of its morally stupefying glory and work my way up TWI's hierarchy – I tend to think there's a good possibility of VP's traits being reflected in my leadership as well. There are obvious symptoms of being infected with the Ebola virus and it can be easily identified under a microscope…In order to identify the infectious "threads" of PFAL, folks will have to fire up their critical thinking engines….and if they want out (out of TWI or even out of their mental prisons) they should brace themselves for some bitter pills to swallow. == == == == /> On a side note: years ago an administrator at a zoo loaned me a book The Hot Zone by Richard Preston which tells the true story of the first emergence of the Ebola virus – from central African Rain Forest and showing up in Washington D.C. – that was really scary stuff!!! The appearance of the Ebola virus in Dallas, Texas not too long ago was a little scary too. It was like deja vu all over again. The Hot Zone on Amazon

I know that I know that I don't know!

Since the discussion has gotten a bit off thread topic I feel comfortable stating that having been a Christian prior to twi was a rock in my existence, during twi it was questioned and confirmed many folds over but after leaving twi, I was free to be a Christian and not something else. TWI placed me back under laws that were differenct than the Lutheran church, when I questioned that, I was bucking God. Silly me, I thought they spoke for God. I have an ill feeling about those who say they spoke for God when it's damn sure they did not. I think back and am ashamed that I probably held vpw in highter esteem than Jesus Christ and even God (emotionally and in daily thinking). I have alot of sins in my life and even though I am forgiven of all by Christ's blood, it's very hard to think that I broke the first commandment.

Rocky thanks for that link to magical thinking – I've bookmarked it so I can review it a few times – good stuff. VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about being in control and manipulating reality; I venture to say that the long term effect on his followers holding to such a mindset would be the followers becoming self-centered just like VP. One of the first non-Way books I read when I left TWI was Beyond Seduction by Dave Hunt. One of the finer points he made in the book got me thinking that maybe there was an insidious nature to certain TWI beliefs; in the book Hunt talked about self-centered belief systems that silence the God-given voice of conscience. link to Beyond Seduction book on Amazon In my opinion true Christianity is about submitting to the lordship of Jesus Christ. When I was in TWI, maybe I had some unarticulated idea of God as being something like a genie in the law-of-believing-bottle - - there to get me what I need or want. That's opposite of the idea in Matthew 22: 36-40 that Rocky referenced in post #1 – to love God and neighbor; I think those passages could be the official policies and procedures manual for authentic Christianity...genuine love is about giving and serving. == == == == Yeah – makes me think of the phrase "you can't have your cake and eat it too" or rather you can't have Christianity and live like the devil too. To paraphrase what I said above - VP's skewed version of Christianity was a lot about him being in control and manipulating Christianity! In other words, VP was in charge of his own religion....maybe a variation on a trinity - he was god, high priest, and devotee all rolled into one....which one ups "i am my own grandpa" ...."i am my own idol." == == == == VP was so obsessed with stuff from the John Birch Society, conspiracy theories, devil spirits, wrong seed boys, and every other covert group that densely populated his mental map of reality. I figure his paranoid delusional tendencies factor in there but also perhaps the idea that he could thwart these invisible enemies by the "power" of believing was comforting to him...and yeah maybe after an exhausting day on his imaginary battlefield, you'd think a tough old warrior should be entitled to a furlough so he can go do whatever he wants.

vpw: "So long as you love God and your neighbor as yourself, you can do as you fool-well please." With it left completely vague how to do the first part, vpw's teachings left him free to do as he pleased.

I have to interject that what T-Bone has said here resonates loudly with my own personal experience. "Spirit can only speak to spirit" is one of the major stumbling blocks and flaws in the so-called "Great Principle". There's lots of past discussion here if anyone is interested in looking at it in greater detail The "Keys to Walking by The Spirit" checklist on page 15 of the Advanced Class syllabus. Comical to think about it now, in a sad kind of way. I wonder where VP got this list. Surely he couldn't have authored it himself and included the prerequisite of humility. The Advanced Class has to have been one of the most depressing two week events I ever experienced during my time in The Way. Such high expectations. So little realization of them. I want to say it was a waste of time but it was so much more beyond that.

Yeah, T-Bone.....lots to ponder there. Good to see you again. Sometimes, I view the corps as the inflection point in wierwille's agenda. Clearly, vpee desired a "cracked-troop force" [he emphasized this many times] who would carry out his orders......and those orders were to run pfal classes. No questions, no dissent. Note: Inflection Point For a few years, wierwille's corps helped to put some structure and strength to twi, but as the corps numbers grew.......and some opportunists, jerks and nimwads became certifiable corps grads..... the twi-experiment pinnacled [1978] and began rapidly nose-diving. One could easily make the case of multiple factors for twi's quick demise: 1) The wierwille factor: plagiarism, predator, pharisee, opportunist, bully, deceiver, etc. 2) Vpee's brother, Harry, died in the fall of 1977 and, partly, kept vpw in parameters 3) With each passing year, corps grads were challenged with realities of life, children, careers 4) By 1978, twi reached its downward inflection point......more corps grads were dissenting 5) More legalistic language and measures were instituted to STOP the growing exodus 6) Bubbling underneath the surface, corps grads AND adv class grads tired of twi's confinement Corps came in all sizes, shapes, colors, backgrounds, interests, etc......NO MONOLITHIC CORE. Anyone trying to paint this group as a bunch of "brown-shirts" didn't see what I experienced. The inflection point does NOT give credence to twi's apex as some sort of "spiritual pinnacle" but graphs a growing trend of involvement before the sudden downturn. .

Critical thinking is a manner of thinking that allows for critique of ideas using reason and logic. It's an objective, unbiased approach to evaluation of ideas and situations. The PFAL series, along with Renewed Mind and Dealing With The Adversary, taught us to explicitly avoid and deny critical thinking........... "Having done all, STAND!. You just don't budge, baby."-VPW......It's sprinkled throughout all the other classes as well, with the exception, maybe, of Keys to Research. A lot of ex Way people are still stuck in that denial mode. You can see the evidence of it regularly on facebook. I consider them to be victims until they start to use that stubbornness in a damaging, oppressive way. edit: I wanted to add that this doesn't only apply to Bible matters. I've encountered many ex-Way people who are entrenched in this anti-critical thinking mindset. It can be maddening trying to reason with them. Sometimes they even show up on GSC to let us all know had severely we've been led astray. Such is life.

Yes....."it's far more complicated than the question allows." The opening premise of this thread details corps as victims/oppressors...... but, in my opinion, falls far short of detailing "the epitome of twi's oppression" in your two choices [opening post]. Some Examples: 1) I've seen obnoxious twig coordinators, advanced class grads, staffers.....who were NOT corps. 2) Some interim corps got tired or disgusted with twi leadership and left to pursue other things. 3) After corps graduation, a percentage of corps grads EXITED TWI.....never to return. 4) Twi had built a system of "follow the leader to please God" at every level. 5) In October 2000, I ran across an advanced class grad who was a loyal, obnoxious, sell-out to Rosalie's "kinder/gentler" twi......and he was "standing for God" because corps were quitting. At every level.....the scam was perpetuated. At every level.....the scam was oppressive.

I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team, too. From my experience in the cult, and from knowing a variety of people in it over the years, I'd say victim/perpetrator is pretty black and white, but probably those are useful words to apply as we attempt to clarify who bears responsibility for the darkness perpetrated by the system known as TWI. But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions. That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

It's not either/or, in my view It depends on what the Corps person did and with what attitude they did it It depends on what individuals did with the power and authority that they had over other people From what I read here, some of you Corps grads were on the receiving end of mental abuse that I can't even imagine...but I also observed Corps grads dishing it out and who were (apparently) willing participants in the top-down abuse that originated with Wierwille, and I was lucky enough to know Corps grads who were good people who did nothing but "bless" the lives of those they came in contact with But you didn't have to be a Corps grad to be a victimizer, to be an abuser of power I did not go through the Corps (I signed up, participated in Apprentice Corps meetings etc, didn't get my money together and never tried again) but I am not proud to say that I was party to and complicit in abuses as were other non-Corps people. A couple of people who I categorize as those whom I would most like to hit in the face with a hammer were not Corps...you just can't make a blanket statement about a whole class of people

Well......if I landed from Mars and started reading GSC yesterday, then maybe, I would fluctuate between the two polar extremes. BUT.....as a young follower caught up in the machinery of twi ........and a class-based system that didn't allow questions ........and scriptures that were cherry-picked for the season ........and wierwille's entourage and motorcoach fanfare ........and twig-manifestations to exhibit you bought the product ........and the multi-level marketing ploy of selling soap ........and the withholding of information [i.e. = fraud] ........and use of intimidation, manipulation & exploitation After some 7,000 posts on Waydale and GSC to expose the wierwille mystique, I would have to cast my lot that the corps were victims. But hey, what do I know? Disclaimer: I was a corps grad.

From what I recall, the "banner year", the year the "great mystery" got out was 1974-75. First interim year 4th corpse assigned to way prod and/or HQ, 4th corpse in Rez for their 2nd year, 1st year in-Rez 5th, 1st corpse back for first sabbatical year, and the first special or family corpse ALL were at HQ. That year, vic taught Ephesians on corpse nights. After the grace teaching early on, overt wife swapping and sexual affairs popped up all over the place. Some people left, some were "kicked out", several couples divorced and others ran off with one another.....a real zoo. By the time I returned from my interim year in NC the cover-up was full throttle. But before vic put the kibosh on ANY discussion re: the Ephesians teachings were restricted to the research dept., Cliff Adelman sat me down at the Ochs house where he lived on his interim year and tearfully recounted some of the stuff the happened to our good friends in the fifth corps. My choice was to stick with Vic and Howard's line: "If you did not see it you don't know". That was the year Gary Donhoff of the 5th corpse was killed in a car wreck coming back to HQ from a "snack run" during the Klenz. Vic accused all who cheated on the Klenz of MURDER! John Knave, the driver was basically banished. His marriage broke up and his wife got involved with another 5th corpse married man. Both of them eventually got tossed too and both marriages were ended. One of them died a horrible death from gastric ca. One horror story after another. The piffle red thread was becoming a Persian tapestry of sexual promiscuity, adultery, and death. It continued downhill from there and vic went to the grave with the red thread now a red brick road through the heart of twit.

Brilliant post, DWBH......thanks! Through the years, I've thought about the strategy of pfal and how certain teaching points, stories, or off-the-cuff zingers [ie....preemptive strikes] were strategically placed. 1) The mother feared the death of her little boy....and one day, it happened. 2) All the women in the kingdom.....belong to the king. 3) The town drunk who showed up at church....don't judge, you've never walked in his shoes. 4) If you go after the man of God....his life, his work, his tie....get down to bare facts. 5) I would need to read it line by line....before calling the great Apostle Paul a sex pervert. 6) Billboard sign -- millions now smoking.....subliminal message from a smoker? Some things seemed like preemptive strikes....and other times, when he was dismissive of things, he was simply ignoring it for reasons that railroaded his sociopathic agendas.

Hi All! My 2 cents FWIW...... I think that entire rap about the drunk showing up at choich, whether invented or real, is part of a subtle thread which runs throughout piffle. It's like the red thread. What is it? An attempt by vic to pre-emptively mitigate the accusations which had been thrown at him effectively before this filming project in late 1967. Namely that, vic was a drunk and a "womanizer". These went as far back as Van Wert and were definitely part of why the UCC dangcanned him. They fired him and then he wrote his "resignation" letter in August, 1956 or 57. Upon moving it all back to the family farm where he grew up in New Knoxville, the locals, who couldn't stand young vic when he lived among them, were not shaking their heads that the boy was fired by the Church for drinking and carousing with his young secretary Rhoda Beckett, a Mennonite from NY, along with others in his congregation. The "rumors" were quite effective because first of all, they were factual, and secondly, the NK residents were quite well aware of vic's varied peccadilloes while he terrorized the town's girls and bullied the boys. So, when he returned to the family farm after being fired by the UCC, H.E. bought up the shares of the other siblings, and he was back home facing the reputation he had made for himself as a young man in town and the rumors, which everyone knew were true, of why the church fired him. And so the feud was rekindled and continues today even though no wierwilles are left in twit. Piffle was filmed in Dayton. The biggest fellowships were in Troy, Xenia, and several towns surrounding New Knoxville like Sidney and St. Mary's. Vic's church along with all the whispers about the fired UCC guy who had his own church now. The rumors never stopped and now followed him wherever he went. So, he constantly did everything he could to squelch, deny, and minimalize the rumors even in piffle. Examples? The drunk story. Vic was a boozer since high school. Everybody knew it. He'd get dangfaced and race his motorcycle all over the place doing "tricks" and scaring people. He was the prankster, practical joker who consistently ....ed people off. The NKers knew all this. So did Shelby and auglaize county sheriffs. So, the whole drunk story was throw in there not to teach grace but rather to obviate vic's "license to sin" practice of grace. How did he respond to the drunk guy incident? He became one! But, we don't need to confront him. We need to love and forgive him by god's grace just like vic Did for the drunk and like Jesus does for you. "That's the living thing to do." Then, in that section in Acts where he's "handling" Paul's thorn in the flesh. Remember? "Whaddya think his back looked like? Whaddya think his back looked like? Why some even accused the great Apostle Paul of being a sex pervert! A sex pervert! Imagine that? Well I'd sure as heck would need to be absolutely sure I was right before I'd lay something like that at the feet of the greatest apostle in the first century church! That's riiight! A sex pervert! Lordy Pete!". Sound familiar? Interesting he'd throw that one specific charge in there that is NOT recorded anywhere in scripture. Again, a pre-emotive strike to obviate the other FACT about Vic that followed him his whole life. A drunken molester of women and a bully. And, the pre-emptive obviating was quite effective all through the 70's. But, then the facts caught up with them all, and down fell the cradle, baby and all. Vic was ALWAYS on alert. But the young jerks like da forehead, Beence finnegan, wrenn, lynn, and a bunch of other young turks were lazy. They had it handed to them and thought it was their right. Didn't take long before they all got caught and when the heat started turning on Vic, he retired and got outta dodge. And, when he died he left Geer behind to take it all back from the guys who screwed it all up......his oldest biological son Don, his best friend Howard, and his best student da forehead. He died a "winner" and took his balls to the grave with him. Which is why his son Don, at the end of a Yak Twig meeting in the motorcycle shed in 1986, tearfully screamed......"He's .... dead and still he tortures me from the grave!". Nice legacy.