Twinky

One might suppose that Ros-a-Lie sets the example by not retiring. She's making a better fist (as in tight fisted) than VPW, who basically got sidelined. She's made d@mn sure she's not going to get sidelined like that. Therefore, everyone has to follow her example. I attend two churches. In both, recently, the vicar or rector (minister) has just retired, Paul about 10 months ago and Edward in November. Their retirement was planned for, and welcomed (with regret) by their congregations, who acknowledged that these ministers had "paid their dues," (with regret by the congregation because they were popular ministers, lovely men). I recall some years ago, the PCC was pushing for a raise in the stipend for a previous vicar (another Paul), because he needed to plan for his retirement. All of these men have gone on to continue serving other congregations, taking a different role from leadership/ministering, but still vitally involved in congregations in their new areas. Nobody makes them; they do so because they love to serve. But it gives them the opportunity to serve in a different capacity, according to their abilities now and in the foreseeable future. If TWI left people alone and stopped interfering, they'd probably find that many would have stuck around anyway to continue to serve, in whatever capacity. But legalism, compulsion, kills the joy of giving and of serving. But hey - can't teach an old cult new tricks.

Oh, I see elsewhere you said 14 years in TWI and 18 years with Geer. That's a lot of baggage. You won't unpack it all at once, but you'll do it much quicker here than on your own. We know what you've been through, and you can "vent" here. It is wonderful to enjoy the peace that passes understanding, and to learn to be quiet with the Lord and just enjoy his company. You don't have to do, you just have to be. The Lord welcomes you with open arms. He promises you freedom. He paid the price for your freedom. Enjoy a walk in the park with him. Or a beer in the pub.

Well done, annio. It takes years to disentangle properly from TWI doctrine and practices. But examine everything; keep what is good You said elsewhere you're going to a church; ask them if you have doctrinal concerns, and you don't have to accept their answer! They might be right, might be wrong, but it's another point of view that you can consider. Sit back and see what your church does, and how they treat each other and outsiders. Are they kind and welcoming, or legalistic (you can easily spot that one!). For example, for a while, I would deliberately go to church late (because in TWI 10 mins early is "late") - I was always welcomed kindly, given the notice sheet, and found a seat. Not one word about being late. I was in a housegroup and they were all mature Christians; I'd challenge their views (because they weren't like TWI doctrine) - they put up with me patiently despite (as a friend told me later) them thinking I had some very odd ideas and was a bit weird. I undertook a one-year course at a local Bible college (one evening a week) to find out "mainstream" views, and found a variety of views from the guest teachers, some of whom were excellent, one showed himself to be a bully (he wasn't invited back) - by this time I had the courage to discuss one idea with my church leaders and they thought it was very strange too. There is a wide variety of views in the Christian community but God will lead you to a place that is best for you, now; later, another place might be more appropriate for where you are on your journey. That's fine. You didn't say how long you'd been in or how old you are now; if raised as a child for more than a couple of years, there'll be a lot you need to work through. Take your time. Whatever you do, wherever you find yourself, live kindly and with compassion. Seek others who live kindly and compassionately. Be kind to yourself. Oh, and read Bibles other than KJV. Too loaded. I found The Message (wildly different!) a good way to start reading again. Made me think and not gloss over or jump into TWI thinking patterns. There are threads here about different Bible versions, and why people who still read Bibles read the versions they do. Blessings!

When I first found the Cafe, annio, I spent so much time reading ... I didn't have internet at home, so stayed after work reading and reading. I was shocked, appalled, and ultimately freed from a lot of misery. Would leave very late - got locked in twice (was discovered at 10pm, where did the previous five hours go!?) - happily, one time the cleaners disturbed me, and the second time, the IT guy was fixing some things. Otherwise, I guess I'd have been very early for work the next day...! Carry on reading!

Welcome, Stillconfused. I hope you'll find that this site unpicks some of the TWI blindness. Whatever the reason you and your family have got out, you'll find things here that help you get your mind back in order. There are, or were, others here who "grew up" in TWI. There must be a lot of baggage for you to offload. Perhaps you could tell us something of your story, only as much as you're comfortable with, in the New Members section. Meantime, let's see if we can't find a cup of coffee for you.

Do the last few posts here need shifting to the Trinity thread? As to Billy Graham (to keep this on track) - regardless of his faults (and who hasn't got faults?), he caused many people to want to know Christ, and to make commitments to learn, find out more. I do not know that he bullied people into submission, but he presented the gospel in a way that was exciting, fresh, interesting, and whet people's appetites to know more. At his rallies, he had people from local churches come and assist, so that they could take new committers under their wings. I don't know that he got people "born again" - I don't know who can say this for true. I do know that he started many people on a path where they could become born again, be saved, become Christians - put it how you will. Some, he may have offered a "faith revival" and that encouraged them to "return to the faith." He had a big, positive, impact on people's lives, likely more than any poster here, and certainly more than TWI ever did.

Yep, JayDee. I have met many awesome Christians (trinis) who live out their faith and their love for the Lord. I have met some non-trinis, far fewer in number, who live out their faith and their love for the Lord. It's not an issue for most people. They just get on with living out their faith and getting on with the tasks that have been assigned to us as Christians. I tend to take the view that it's not an issue for Jesus, or for his (and our) Father. There's been 2,000 years since Jesus was murdered, and since he was raised from the dead. It's been 1700 years since the Council of Nicea presented us with the "creed" and the doctrine of the trinity (which clearly had been around for far longer than that). So, in 2000 years, give or take a century, either (1) there is no God, and possibly no Jesus; or (2) neither God nor Jesus gets excited about this doctrine, as clearly they've done nothing to correct it one way or the other. If it doesn't matter to them, it's inappropriate that it should be such a big deal for Christians now. There's a very great amount that we have been commanded to do, and it would be more appropriate to concentrate on that.

You don't think these rabbit jokes are "warren" a bit thin now?

Wasn't Rome City purchased because it was easier to get accreditation for "degrees" in that state? (Not that any accredited degrees were ever granted!) UL was before my time, so no knowledge of the background there. Wasn't Emporia purchased because the WC was growing very fast at that point? And there was an immediate need for housing and teaching facilities? But you're right. Proper residences for staff and proper classrooms would have been a jolly good idea, not to mention a good use of ABS. The land was available and could have been used. Heck, they could even have (1) paid local builders or (2) set up accredited apprenticeships for staff or in rez corps. (Oh what a distraction that would have been!) And they'd have to pay a proper rate to outside builders.

Could have been an interesting discussion, there's a lot to think about and many different ideas (all "scriptural"), but it doesn't need to be combative. I'm done with this thread and with this poster. No profit.

Rising up was hard this morning. It's cold, and there is a lot of snow on the ground outside. Thawing, though, just: temps will be above freezing today, with less of a windchill, so it may "feel" rather more comfortable. For the first time in its history, the local half marathon has had to be cancelled. Always the first Sunday in March. Usually about 15,000 or so runners, so a lot to arrange, close roads, hire equipment, etc. As at yesterday evening, some main roads locally are impassable; the main route in from the motorway (freeway) had drifts of 12ft and had a number of abandoned cars at the edges. Disappointing for the runners, but better safe than sorry. Still dangerous for spectators, those serving drinks, medics, etc, not to mention all the runners waiting around. Takes a long time to assemble, and to get to the start.

Yeah, I thought that too, Rocky. It was a legitimate (and interested) question. I fancy GoldStar might be in for a surprise come Rev 22 time. In fact, I think we will all be in for a surprise.

You need to define your term "salvation," GoldStar. From reading your initial post, it seems your definition is that there will be a physical body and that the physical body will thereafter dwell upon the [new?] Earth. Is that it, or does your term "salvation" include other aspects? If so, what? Does it differ from "salvation" for Christian believers? Or for Jewish or Hebrew [Israelite] believers?

I guess they might have some fishy friends - who met on the net.

Did you hear about the two spiders who just got engaged? They met on the web.

GoldStar, perhaps you'd care to expound your views on Saved and Salvation. Doctrinal would be the forum for that.

I think BG may have had something like this in mind, from Romans 2: And as for Jesus, did he not spend time with those who hadn't heard of him, with those who didn't believe who he was, and with those who only knew vague whispers about a Messiah? Was not the Promise to Abraham, who'd never heard of Jesus? Does God not want all people to be saved? Unwise to lift Rom 10:9,10 out of context. Get a bigger vision than what TWI taught, especially about these verses. Get a bigger view of "saved" and salvation, too. And note, while you're about it, that BG didn't call people to his own cultic ministry. He referred people to local churches, places in their area, where they could be taught, mentored, guided, not by him but by people who knew the area and culture into which he was preaching. He didn't take all the glory to himself but acknowledged his fellow laborers (local churches) in their work for God.

D'ya know what, Mike? It wouldn't be acceptable a very long time ago. I just googled "history of copyright law usa" and found this little gem in Wikipedia (my emphases in bold/underlined): Thereafter follows a lengthy discussion of various copyright laws in the USA. And this was being talking about then (1783 !!!) because the British Copyright Act 1710 (again, note the date) did not apply to the American colonies. If folks, Americans, were concerned about this in the early 1700s, and definitely discussing it and petitioning about it towards the end of the 1700s, how can you say it didn't matter only 60 years ago? There's no exception, as you claim. It's okay to say you still benefit from the gems. I'm pleased for you that you do. Just give credit where it's due. (Big hint: no name with initial W comes anywhere near). PS do note that I have cited the source of my info! Not too difficult or confusing, was it?

I think you'll find that Bro. Andrew didn't claim that the Bible was his own work. Therefore, he didn't plagiarise it. That's what this thread is about: plagiarism. End of.

So what you're saying, Mike, is that TWI was never academic, despite (1) its purported "degrees in theology" (and a degree is a recognized level of education - it's a bit more than a school leaving cert) and (2) the Research Dept was no academic thing, either. If TWI had really thought its product was any good, it would have circulated it widely. After all, that's what most authors do, isn't it? And anyone who has researched God's Word would (by your argument) want to share it because it belongs to every person, or is it every believer? I can't remember your "qualification" from other threads. And some of the authors sell into an academic market, and some, like Ortberg and Yancey, sell to people who want more readable material. But that isn't what TWI wanted. It would be embarrassing (at best) to be found out in plagiarism. And even any original works (like the collaterals - if indeed there were original material there) couldn't sell in a wider market; there's so much better stuff available in an already over-provided market. Never mind being "peer-reviewed," these things wouldn't stand up to being reviewed in any other than a captive market. I think your comment, "It was a rural farmer country church family. Plagiarism doesn't matter there" rather belittles the abilities of rural residents. I think if they knew he was stealing other people's intellectual property, they'd be outraged at the idea that he was passing such off as his own material. There's probably a higher level of trust among country folk, and they don't like the theft of their own machinery and equipment; stock, crops and animals. Whilst they'd probably gladly share ideas on production, etc, with their own kind, they'd probably be pretty upset if someone took those ideas, patented them, and tried to sell the ideas back to them.

Tell you what about the video: it burns well. I thought at the time it was a great production. When I came to sorting through a load of Way stuff decades later, I had a quick look and watched the first 5 or 10 mins, felt terribly embarrassed at my previous Waydaze opinion, and decided to toss the tape in the woodburner.

Oooohhhh! Conspiracy theory!!!!!!!!

Hello, annio. Welcome and stick around! I met G33r quite a few times when he was at Gartmore involved in the Way of GB. Arrogant and soooo puffed up. Cold, heartless, and mean. There's a few threads about him here. In the meantime, a warm, hearty welcome to you, and someone will be along soon with some coffee for you to settle down with. Seems like my signal for a waiter summoned the wrong kinda coffee.

Hah! You cracked it, T-Bone. So we can legitimately call him "doctor" W.

It was never going to go far, no matter what forum it's in. As you can see, people found it and posted on it. So why complain?