What I mean is....proverbs talks about *in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* or some such thing...
The meaning is....if we (the prey) had seen what they (the predators) had in mind...we would have fled before becoming ensnared by the trap.
I see US .... the good hearted, pure intentioned, humble believers as the unintentional BAIT that lured unsuspecting victims. The general public saw us, our earnest efforts, our loving hearts, our selfless giving, the scriptures held forth... as the face of twi. We were what enticed the prey.
Further, I see the corpes as the camoflage (sp?) (though unbeknownst to themselves) that the evil at headquarters hid their true nature of debauchery and cruelty behind.
I see those whom were aware of the evil, who knew the fate that awaited those who would become ensnared, yet simply didn`t care ...... as the ones waiting to spring the trap.
TWI, VPW, LCM were able to masquerade as Godly people in charge of a spiritually healthy group ONLY because all of us, (though unaware) enabled them to stay diguised, their true nature and motives to remain hidden.
I have a picture that I both hate and love. I have mentioned it before. When you look at it....at first you see a peacefull scene of ducks sitting quietly in a picturesquel pond. There are three ducks that are in the process of back winging to land in amongst the ducks who`s presence would seem to indicate that all is well.
The arriving ducks, do not realise that the ducks in the pond are decoys, and that with their attention focused on the decoys are unaware of the hunters that are half rising, guns at shoulder from behind a blind .... readying themselves to fire.
The ducks are entirely oblivious to their impending doom.
I identify my involvement with twi with this picture. At first glance it gives the appearance of serenity and peace. On closer examination it shows itself to be a scene of impending carnage.
I see us.
The arriving ducks were the new victims.....the decoys were we believers whom attracted while distracting the unwary, the corpes that were aware were the blind that hid the hunters untill the prey had been lured close enough for them to kill.
Great topic Highway. I don`t know if think even those of us with pure heart necessarily were doing a good thing. No matter how honorable our intentions were, because folks ended up sticking around believing that it was a good place to be because of what they saw in us.
We inadvertantly hid the true nature of the organization.
IMHO....I don't think vp could have functioned, as he did, without the wc...and still have gone the direction that we have observed. vp had to have a group of trusted followers to carry out his every wish. Ordinary believers were too unreliable. They might rebel against a given order and stop vp in his tracks...so, he HAD to have a wc that was totally and unconditionally, committed to HIM. With the right training, he believed he could ask anything of them, within "reason", and they would carry it out for him...dog soldiers, so to speak.
He used the wc like a hunter uses his dog, to go out and "get" those unbelievers into the class. I don't think vp was really very concerned about the ordinary believers. They were just more "recruits waiting to happen"...future corps, so to speak. With more and more corps in the field, generating and running twigs and classes, more and more money would flow into HQ. The more money that flowed in, the bigger HQ grew. The bigger HQ grew, the more prestigious TWI became. The more prestigious TWI became, the more credibility it had in the minds of the potential new believers. And the cycle begins again. vp was addicted, imho, with becoming the biggest and baddest boy on the block...while carring his version of the Word of God over the World.
There absolutely were many, many great corps people that deeply cared for God's people and for working for Him in any capacity He wanted them in. But, how far can anyone go in that direction, while being fed misleading doctrine, spiritual untruths, and coersive guidance. TWI's foundation gradually became corrupted to such a degree that spiritual truth was ignored, honesty was discounted and moral integrity was undermined. The corruption stained everyone to some degree or another.
So, no, I don't think TWI could have happened as it did without the wc. I thank God so many got out.
Sorry for the rant. But this abuse of God's kids makes my blood boil! (i gotta cool off...be back later)
I've posted this before but I was never in the WC and the people who blessed me the most and the people who PO'd me the most, were WC. They were supposed to have an impact, whether they had leadership positions or not. Their job was to protect the word wherever they were.
My first "collision" with WC was during my WOW training. It was before a meal and I was waiting in line and Dorothy Owens, the etiquette lady, was mentioned. I casually said that I'd heard some 6th corps say they didn't want to sit near her during a meal. This 8th corps girl says, "THEN THEY HAVE THEIR HEADS UP THEIR A$$E$!!! It's the word! Detail!"
That incident served notice to me: watch what the hell comes out of your mouth around WC. In the years that followed, sure some WC let the nametag go to their heads, but many times they were helpful and loving. Right now I go to a fellowship which includes members of the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th WCs. Without exception they are all glad they got the training.
ANY organization that wants to increase needs committed followers to spell the top leaders.
Right now I go to a fellowship which includes members of the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th WCs. Without exception they are all glad they got the training.
"Training".....???
The way corps program was ALOT more about indoctrination......than training.
The first three months inrez were pfal rehash and dale carnegie techniques. After chrismas break, was alot of twi classes (ie....witnessing & undershepherding, way tree, renewed mind, defeating the adversary, etc.) and then off to lightbearers -- to get a class together.
The corps program was alot of refried and re-refried and re-re-refried and re-re-re-refried beans.
But.....to reply to the original question......the late 60's culture, the pfal class to market at the right time, hefner, doop, and a few others to spearhead pockets of growth, and THEN the corps program to add an inner-sanctum "leadership" element to the mix.......wierwille's marketing strategy had a one-generation impact.
IMO, had wierwille's system been genuine ----- it would have last PAST one generation. And, in hindsight.....it stands as a marketing phase or rubic cube fad.
Lots of really good corps......and some bad apples. But for those who've lingered in twi, especially since the ouster of lcm.........even some of them are FINALLY slipping out the back door.
Man, that's a tough one. Because I think human nature would have been in play, even if there wasn't a structure in place to cultivate the kind of people they wanted as leadership. It is human nature to climb the ladder of success not matter what the group or its structure. And let's face it, twi was geared to keep people moving along the conveyer belt: fellowship, pfal, the int and adv classes, the collateral classes, fellowship coordinator, WOW, College Program, Corps, Leadership... for many, they simply jumped through whatever hoop was placed in front of them, in an effort to be a better person, be more spiritual, get closer to God...
And for many, it must be said, they jumped through the hoops to get more "goodies"... more power, more authority, maybe even get paid by twi and not have to worry about a real job. But having a way corps training program streamlined the process, for sure. And it allowed the Vicster to personally cultivate and groom those who had the traits he was looking for... and to place them right where he wanted them. No question of that.
I guess I'm coming back around, though, to my original position on this... there were basically three kinds of way corps: the ones who were seeking to be leadership, and the ones who really wanted to serve God with all their heart, and the ones who were just going along to get along. I just don't think you can lump all those different kinds of people (not to mention all their different experiences, some hardening themselves to become leadership twi-style, and others seeing the errors and fighting against them) into one category.
I think ole Doc Vic would have eventually gotten all that he went after. He was after all despite his other faults a charismatic leader. But the WC certainly stream lined the operation. Things are always faster and smoother when you have people helping you that believe in you. Ask any politician, or athlete, or actor how far or how fast they could have gone without help.
I also agree with Rascals interpretation that the corps that "knew" acted as a shield for the upper leadership. And the happy go lucky knot heads (play on the wooden decoy analogy) who remained blissfully ignorant for a time were the proverbial bait.
The turning point for any corps person was when they really understood the doctrine that they were helping to promote, encourage or support was somehow a lie. Whatever the situation was, whether they learned of VP's motorcoach escapades, LCM's adultery or they simply realized that much of the Ways doctrine wasn't biblical...whatever it was...they had a choice to make. They needed to decide individually if they wanted to continue to perpetrate the lie. It is at that point that the person's true motive for becoming corps was illuminated. This is also the point in which one can begin to asses blame if that is your wish. Because it is here that the true good hearted believers parted ways either mentally or physically from TWI. It did not happen all at once to be sure and in some respect it is still happening.
But the true question that I ask at this point is "What is the profit of assigning blame?" I am not saying that some are blameless, nor do I excuse the atrocities committed by soooo many. For myself it does not help to assign blame as I myself have skeletons that I am more than a little ashamed of, so I also am to blame for my little speck of universal chaos. I stayed much longer than I should have...I saw the writing on the wall and tried to clean it off...to no avail. Then I hung on for prides sake...how foolish was that?
Should they be blamed one and all for wanting more, for whatever reason? Should they be blamed for trying to fix it? Should they be blamed...
I look in the mirror of my own soul and blame myself enough thank you, give me more if it makes you feel better but my cup already runeth over.
Rascal----The duck analogy really Speaks volumes . What's that old saying? "A picture says 1,000 words."
But putting all the spiritual stuff aside for a moment, who would have kept the grounds? Who would have scrubbed the toilets in the BRC? Who would have worked long and thankless hours putting together the ROA and the making sure it ran smoothly? Who would have put their careers on hold so TWI would have musical product to sell to an anxiously awaiting market? The list, of course, goes on and on.
And what about the WOWs? Who else would have moved across the country and sometimes across the "big pond" to sell a product that didn't even have a commision plan?
How about Fellowlaborers? Who else would have devoted so much sweat and elbow grease to keep the Limb HQ in a readiness mode for visitors from throughout the state?
Without all the good old fashioned physical labor and creative input as well as supplying business savvy, it would have all been just a bunch of Bible classes.
I'm sure I left out lots of people in my examples but I hope my point is obvious.
I believe the corps enabled Dr. W to function, and protected him to function secretly. (The .... of the devil is the secrecy of his moves....)
There was the corps.
Then a breakdown of the WC, IMHO.
1. The good little supplicants who really believed they were moving the word and truly loved the Lord and wanted to help people.
2. Then, there was a group a little closer to the moggie. They were blessed to get his dry cleaning, clean his house, wash the motor coach etc.
3. Out of that group, they picked people they thought “could handle” the real Way Ministry.
The ones who could keep their mouths shut. The ones who would squeal on their own mothers to their superiors and the ones who had “understanding” of the divine sexual promiscuity with which VPW was involved.
I think most corps started out as #1.
Some were moved into group #2. These people were very gung-ho. They started to like to “nane drop” who they had hung with on Saturday night.
Many could not go on to step #3, because they were not “cool” enough to handle the TRUE inner circle or because they were needed as a buffer zone… Close enough to the Moggies to swear they never saw anything funny going on. (Because they were deliberately kept out of the true inner circle)
Then, there was group #3. The men were willing to share their wives or girlfriends with other “men”. The women were ready if not eager to “bless the Moggie” with their vagina’s and big full lips… Once in, they liked it and wanted to convert others to the real goings on. They became recruiters.
Now, many invited from group #2 to group #3 did not want any part of it. They were appalled by it. In an effort to get them to shut up, they were campaigned against, such as discussed that they were possessed and not to be listened to, or they were bad corps.
I was in group #1, a wide eyed innocent coming from the field and very much in love with God and wanting to develop in the corps to serve God. I was brought into #2 quickly, placed on the Head Table and invited to meet “certain” people. When I was perceived as “cool” I was then introduced to the sick goings on and I said “NO WAY” I then, was taken from jobs like head table, and placed in refinishing where I could not harm anyone by my “Tales” or “Fables” of naked leaders begging for BJ’s and willing girls pushing others into it.
As a failure in group #3, I was then screamed at, accused of being possessed, treated like dog crap etc, the fear became over whelming and I truly believe the push was for me to commit suicide. Which I did entertain.
I then, full of fear, no longer acted our of love, but out of fear. And in my acting out of fear, I did behave in ways I am sickened by today. Pushing a class, witnessing to people out of fear (were I once did it out of love) and had them take a class I knew was the first step to crap. I always liked it when they took the class then left. I liked the class just not the crap after it.
The corps was like the movie “Training Day” with Denzel Washington.
So, no VPW could have never operated without the WC.
The turning point for any corps person was when they really understood the doctrine that they were helping to promote, encourage or support was somehow a lie. Whatever the situation was, whether they learned of VP's motorcoach escapades, LCM's adultery or they simply realized that much of the Ways doctrine wasn't biblical...whatever it was...they had a choice to make.
Exactly!!!... I guess that's why I've always looked at each person individually. Most corps, for most of their corps career, were just about as ignorant of the true monstrosity that was twi as was everyone else out there. So, my general point of view is that it is unprofitable to lump all the way corps into one basket of badness.
Then again: Why even talk of blame, you asked?
Because these threads and this forum are about understanding our past, in order to move beyond it. (at least that's what I think they are here for) And Bumpy brought up a viewpoint I hadn't really considered before... that the corps, by their very existence lent a certain solidity and credibility to twi. And the corps, often by their (albeit ignorant) actions, enforced a set of rules that allowed VP and the others to live a hidden life of debauchery. Are they to blame or are they victims? And make no mistake, blame is part of the equation. There is self-blame, blame of others, blame of the system itself. (I'm not saying it is beneficial, but I am saying what you think about blame will shape your perspective, attitudes, and future path from here on out.)
Hmm... now that I think about it, that is exactly the question that has been debated here regarding Mrs. Wierwille. Many of the same arguments on either side, too.
And I still keep coming back around to the quote at the beginning of this post: everyone has a deciding point. Prior to that, they were innocent victims (way corps, Mrs. Wierwille, or not). But once they KNOW and the innocence is gone, that's when I start judging them. Because they either walked away (good choice) or tried to hang in there and make things better from the inside and shield the believers as much as they could (probably not the best choice) or drank more koolade and ignored, defended, or refused to believe what they knew of the ugly side of twi (bad, bad choice). Those who deny what they know, or become overwhelmed by fear (as Dot pointed out a heavily used tool of twi) I still think of as victims. But those who ignore or defend, well, they just crossed over the line and became perpetrators, and that's where my forgiveness factor hits a much steeper incline.
In answer to your questions-Yes I do think that VP would have done what he was going to do with or without the corps. He did it before the corps was formed. He and Craig would have had their goons around them whatever you want to call them.
As for the Corps I agree there were different types of individuals who went into it. That's why we can't blame all of them. Those who hurt others and lorded over others will have to answer for their deeds.
I was Corps and unfortunatley I got kicked out for not wanting to confront like they wanted me too. I refused to treat people the way they wanted me too. I always treated people the way I would want to be treated, with love and respect. I came from the bottom of the barrel and I know what it's like to be there.
When it all comes down to it there will be no labels at the return.
The question should be why didn't we get out earlier. Some did some didn't.
I entered the Way Corps just one year after taking PFAL...so I was young, and pretty innocent. I actually never knew of the sad and sadistic inner workings of the MOG's. I guess I wasn't cool. That's why P*t L*nn said I'd never amount to much as a leader.
OH WELL!!
I left when I received the decision paper from LCM... I pretty much had my foot out the door anyway by that point.
I never stopped trying to help people. Maybe that made me a decoy. It's been a long time and another lifetime ago.
I'd like to think I did serve God and that somewhere in all that mess something good came of it.
Wierwille needed to have the adoration of people...the more people, the more he liked it.
We were warm bodies that went oooh and ahhh when he spoke, we were props...we entered his world and went into orbit around it...it was all about him. As previously mentioned, there were many corps who were "in on it"...most of us walked around ignorantly, with a sh *t eating grin and a green name tag...the waytree provided for a pecking order and a chance to climb to a higher branch in the tree...it allowed us to flex our egos and feed into the groupthink stream of wayworld...
...and there's plenty of blame to pass around. We empowered him with our disgusting man-worship...but of course there's a difference between honest mistakes and dishonest mistakes. I tip my hat to the sincere, those who were honestly seeking God's will and to do the right thing...BUT, to those who sold out to the carnal debauchery and knew they were doing wrong...and knew they were leading others down the same road...a pox upon you all.
There is a legitimate path in life that leads to Christian service...but it doesn't go through New Knoxville, Ohio...
The bottom line is that cult leaders cannot be cult leaders unless there are cult followers.
Wierwille needed to have the adoration of people...the more people, the more he liked it.
The bottom line is that cult leaders cannot be cult leaders unless there are cult followers.
Absolutely! Most that followed him did so because they loved God and wanted to serve Him and his people. When that became unavailable or impractical they melted away. But the corps had been sucked deeper into the web of deception. They couldn't just 'melt away'. They had to unentangle themselves. Some felt they needed to save others as they pushed towards the door, and this sometimes entangled them more. Kind of like trying to leave a large party and always getting side tracked while saying your goodbyes.
Then there were those that liked it in the web. They liked the drama, the secrets and the power.
But VP he didn't care for any of them/us. He just needed them. He needed the corps, the way builders, the leaves, the WOW's, the secretaries, the people. As waysider said "Who would have cleaned the toilets or strung the chairs" (or something like that )
quote: The way corps program was ALOT more about indoctrination......than training.
OK so all the stuff about the integrity of the word, and being born again of incorruptible seed is bogus because of VPs private life? Don't think so. What if it really did good for the true God to have thousands of people at the same time so committed to God that they would relocate, put careers on hold, witness all the time, etc.? What if the devil really was overwhelmed by all of it and dreads that it could ever happen again? Does God think any less of us because we don't do it any more? Don't think so. What are some of you going to do after the return if God gives you a reward for something you did in the WC? Are you going to get all morally superior to God and refuse to take the reward?
Well,If I'm going to be part of a collective group that is going to be singled out for any kind of blame for something,I guess it would be good to know what I'm exactly being blamed for....If we're going to blame the way corps collectively,we'd have to assume that everyone who ever followed the way was collectively worse off because they joined...While the collective opinion at greasespot may be that twi was all bad and did little more than hurt people,that isn't a universally shared belief by every follower or former follower of the way...
I won't get into the specifics,but I suppose in my way corpse years I thought of myself as being part of some sort of fountain of living waters,and at the time I believed anybody and everybody's life could be improved by involving themselve's in way teachings...As it became clearer that the way was just another broken sistern,then it was time to move on...Let people find their own truth...There are people who I led that are happily involved in offshoots or in their own cozy,peaceful Christian existence somewhere---should I tell them I'm sorry for helping screw up their lives? While I don't doubt that every ex-follower of the way was at some point disappointed in or by the ministry and therefore left or were kicked out,I don't believe that 'disappointed' equals 'hurt'...
Simon, I know I haven't been around a whole lot lately, but it's nice to run into you somewhere other than the 9th corps or baseball threads. (Go Tribe!). No doubt I have missed plenty of previous opportunities.
I like your post. Of course I'm not the collective judge here of whether or not you are right on. But then, that's a big reason I like it. I have seen a lot of collective judgements here over the years of the "we were all screwed" type.
I am big on trying to learn more about how others were hurt in ways that I wasn't. I don't know if everyome I've talked to about that believes me or not, though I don't really care anymore whether they do or not. Somewhere along the line I get the feeling that if you mention even mention that not everyone was hurt, or that you personally were not hurt, it is like denying someone else's hurt. Or you get hit with the next step, like being asked if the good you or someone else got from TWI was worth someone else's hurt. An unfair question IMO because someone who has been badly hurt probably cannot know the good I see, just as I cannot really now their hurt. Anyway, in bringing this up, you are in no way whatsover denying that many were hurt, some deeply. You are just saying that not everyone fits into that category. But in just saying that, some seem to believe that it takes away from the idea of how bad TWI has been to many.
I don't consider myself as being hurt by my TWI life, or more specifically by my corps time. That includes that fall of 1979 at HQ, fellow taxman (inside remark). I got a lot out of those times that helps me now, though I would hardly categorize my Christian life as cozy and peaceful (I'll spare you the details). And yes, you are right, there was disapointment. I'd be happy to share with you or anyone about that, in the unlikely event that anyone wants to hear it. My e-mail is on my profile, I believe. By the way, I fit into neither of your categories...I neither left or was kicked out; I was yanked out right after the end of that fall.
Now, someone will say that of course no one was blaming you personally for anything bad. But as I think you are saying, there is a lot of collective blaming around.
Somehow I get the feeling, partly from a response by someone else on another thread, that in the corps and elsewhere in TWI, you were to some extent (maybe a big extent?) a pretty good "fountain of living waters".
I think that we want to feel good about what we did because our motives were pure. (I don`t know if I count responding on this thread as I was app corpes 2 yrs before becoming corpes spouse)
I know that my motives were pure, I just don`t know if that made it right. I don`t think twi could have functioned without all of us, right down to Joe believer who did no more evil that bringing people to twig, and teacj=hing the bible in his house.
Our selfless love, our innocent enthusiasm was what lent an air of legitimacy to twi.
If people had seen what he was really like, what would be really expected of his dulous, they would have run far and fast.
As vrutal as this sounds, I feel like every single person corpes or not, who ever abs`d or witnessed, or taught ... bears some of the responsibility.
Though we did what we did in the name of God....who was eventually served? What was the end result??
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rascal
They couldn`t have functioned without ANY of us.
What I mean is....proverbs talks about *in vain is the snare set in sight of the bird* or some such thing...
The meaning is....if we (the prey) had seen what they (the predators) had in mind...we would have fled before becoming ensnared by the trap.
I see US .... the good hearted, pure intentioned, humble believers as the unintentional BAIT that lured unsuspecting victims. The general public saw us, our earnest efforts, our loving hearts, our selfless giving, the scriptures held forth... as the face of twi. We were what enticed the prey.
Further, I see the corpes as the camoflage (sp?) (though unbeknownst to themselves) that the evil at headquarters hid their true nature of debauchery and cruelty behind.
I see those whom were aware of the evil, who knew the fate that awaited those who would become ensnared, yet simply didn`t care ...... as the ones waiting to spring the trap.
TWI, VPW, LCM were able to masquerade as Godly people in charge of a spiritually healthy group ONLY because all of us, (though unaware) enabled them to stay diguised, their true nature and motives to remain hidden.
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copenhagen
TheHighWay
I believe they needed the wc like hitler needed the secret police the guestapo.
This will give you power to spit from the big top or at a sts. Once your point is made
the goons will carry it out. No mercy and take it to the next level.
This will also kep the mog blameless. We advised but its not a twi policy to not buy a house.
If any beliver wants to go in debt they can. This is only one example. Shout from the roof tops
and have the wc enforce while keeping twi blameless.
That being said there have been some great way corp in my life, a few butt monkeys also.
One of my best friend to this day is way corp.
I would look at the persons heart and actions and not lump them together as one unit.
I have said before in another post you were required to be debt free to go to the adv class.
My friend the wc of the branch leader knew of a couple having less then $10,000 in debt on a home
he looked the other way and sent them to the adv class.
Had the heart for God not the policy of twi.
copenhagen
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rascal
I have a picture that I both hate and love. I have mentioned it before. When you look at it....at first you see a peacefull scene of ducks sitting quietly in a picturesquel pond. There are three ducks that are in the process of back winging to land in amongst the ducks who`s presence would seem to indicate that all is well.
The arriving ducks, do not realise that the ducks in the pond are decoys, and that with their attention focused on the decoys are unaware of the hunters that are half rising, guns at shoulder from behind a blind .... readying themselves to fire.
The ducks are entirely oblivious to their impending doom.
I identify my involvement with twi with this picture. At first glance it gives the appearance of serenity and peace. On closer examination it shows itself to be a scene of impending carnage.
I see us.
The arriving ducks were the new victims.....the decoys were we believers whom attracted while distracting the unwary, the corpes that were aware were the blind that hid the hunters untill the prey had been lured close enough for them to kill.
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rascal
Great topic Highway. I don`t know if think even those of us with pure heart necessarily were doing a good thing. No matter how honorable our intentions were, because folks ended up sticking around believing that it was a good place to be because of what they saw in us.
We inadvertantly hid the true nature of the organization.
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Listener
IMHO....I don't think vp could have functioned, as he did, without the wc...and still have gone the direction that we have observed. vp had to have a group of trusted followers to carry out his every wish. Ordinary believers were too unreliable. They might rebel against a given order and stop vp in his tracks...so, he HAD to have a wc that was totally and unconditionally, committed to HIM. With the right training, he believed he could ask anything of them, within "reason", and they would carry it out for him...dog soldiers, so to speak.
He used the wc like a hunter uses his dog, to go out and "get" those unbelievers into the class. I don't think vp was really very concerned about the ordinary believers. They were just more "recruits waiting to happen"...future corps, so to speak. With more and more corps in the field, generating and running twigs and classes, more and more money would flow into HQ. The more money that flowed in, the bigger HQ grew. The bigger HQ grew, the more prestigious TWI became. The more prestigious TWI became, the more credibility it had in the minds of the potential new believers. And the cycle begins again. vp was addicted, imho, with becoming the biggest and baddest boy on the block...while carring his version of the Word of God over the World.
There absolutely were many, many great corps people that deeply cared for God's people and for working for Him in any capacity He wanted them in. But, how far can anyone go in that direction, while being fed misleading doctrine, spiritual untruths, and coersive guidance. TWI's foundation gradually became corrupted to such a degree that spiritual truth was ignored, honesty was discounted and moral integrity was undermined. The corruption stained everyone to some degree or another.
So, no, I don't think TWI could have happened as it did without the wc. I thank God so many got out.
Sorry for the rant. But this abuse of God's kids makes my blood boil!
(i gotta cool off...be back later)
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johniam
I've posted this before but I was never in the WC and the people who blessed me the most and the people who PO'd me the most, were WC. They were supposed to have an impact, whether they had leadership positions or not. Their job was to protect the word wherever they were.
My first "collision" with WC was during my WOW training. It was before a meal and I was waiting in line and Dorothy Owens, the etiquette lady, was mentioned. I casually said that I'd heard some 6th corps say they didn't want to sit near her during a meal. This 8th corps girl says, "THEN THEY HAVE THEIR HEADS UP THEIR A$$E$!!! It's the word! Detail!"
That incident served notice to me: watch what the hell comes out of your mouth around WC. In the years that followed, sure some WC let the nametag go to their heads, but many times they were helpful and loving. Right now I go to a fellowship which includes members of the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th WCs. Without exception they are all glad they got the training.
ANY organization that wants to increase needs committed followers to spell the top leaders.
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washingtonweather
how much does any company need its top sellers?
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skyrider
"Training".....???
The way corps program was ALOT more about indoctrination......than training.
The first three months inrez were pfal rehash and dale carnegie techniques. After chrismas break, was alot of twi classes (ie....witnessing & undershepherding, way tree, renewed mind, defeating the adversary, etc.) and then off to lightbearers -- to get a class together.
The corps program was alot of refried and re-refried and re-re-refried and re-re-re-refried beans.
But.....to reply to the original question......the late 60's culture, the pfal class to market at the right time, hefner, doop, and a few others to spearhead pockets of growth, and THEN the corps program to add an inner-sanctum "leadership" element to the mix.......wierwille's marketing strategy had a one-generation impact.
IMO, had wierwille's system been genuine ----- it would have last PAST one generation. And, in hindsight.....it stands as a marketing phase or rubic cube fad.
Lots of really good corps......and some bad apples. But for those who've lingered in twi, especially since the ouster of lcm.........even some of them are FINALLY slipping out the back door.
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Eyesopen
I think ole Doc Vic would have eventually gotten all that he went after. He was after all despite his other faults a charismatic leader. But the WC certainly stream lined the operation. Things are always faster and smoother when you have people helping you that believe in you. Ask any politician, or athlete, or actor how far or how fast they could have gone without help.
I also agree with Rascals interpretation that the corps that "knew" acted as a shield for the upper leadership. And the happy go lucky knot heads (play on the wooden decoy analogy) who remained blissfully ignorant for a time were the proverbial bait.
The turning point for any corps person was when they really understood the doctrine that they were helping to promote, encourage or support was somehow a lie. Whatever the situation was, whether they learned of VP's motorcoach escapades, LCM's adultery or they simply realized that much of the Ways doctrine wasn't biblical...whatever it was...they had a choice to make. They needed to decide individually if they wanted to continue to perpetrate the lie. It is at that point that the person's true motive for becoming corps was illuminated. This is also the point in which one can begin to asses blame if that is your wish. Because it is here that the true good hearted believers parted ways either mentally or physically from TWI. It did not happen all at once to be sure and in some respect it is still happening.
But the true question that I ask at this point is "What is the profit of assigning blame?" I am not saying that some are blameless, nor do I excuse the atrocities committed by soooo many. For myself it does not help to assign blame as I myself have skeletons that I am more than a little ashamed of, so I also am to blame for my little speck of universal chaos. I stayed much longer than I should have...I saw the writing on the wall and tried to clean it off...to no avail. Then I hung on for prides sake...how foolish was that?
Should they be blamed one and all for wanting more, for whatever reason? Should they be blamed for trying to fix it? Should they be blamed...
I look in the mirror of my own soul and blame myself enough thank you, give me more if it makes you feel better but my cup already runeth over.
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waysider
Rascal----The duck analogy really Speaks volumes . What's that old saying? "A picture says 1,000 words."
But putting all the spiritual stuff aside for a moment, who would have kept the grounds? Who would have scrubbed the toilets in the BRC? Who would have worked long and thankless hours putting together the ROA and the making sure it ran smoothly? Who would have put their careers on hold so TWI would have musical product to sell to an anxiously awaiting market? The list, of course, goes on and on.
And what about the WOWs? Who else would have moved across the country and sometimes across the "big pond" to sell a product that didn't even have a commision plan?
How about Fellowlaborers? Who else would have devoted so much sweat and elbow grease to keep the Limb HQ in a readiness mode for visitors from throughout the state?
Without all the good old fashioned physical labor and creative input as well as supplying business savvy, it would have all been just a bunch of Bible classes.
I'm sure I left out lots of people in my examples but I hope my point is obvious.
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Dot Matrix
I believe the corps enabled Dr. W to function, and protected him to function secretly. (The .... of the devil is the secrecy of his moves....)
There was the corps.
Then a breakdown of the WC, IMHO.
1. The good little supplicants who really believed they were moving the word and truly loved the Lord and wanted to help people.
2. Then, there was a group a little closer to the moggie. They were blessed to get his dry cleaning, clean his house, wash the motor coach etc.
3. Out of that group, they picked people they thought “could handle” the real Way Ministry.
The ones who could keep their mouths shut. The ones who would squeal on their own mothers to their superiors and the ones who had “understanding” of the divine sexual promiscuity with which VPW was involved.
I think most corps started out as #1.
Some were moved into group #2. These people were very gung-ho. They started to like to “nane drop” who they had hung with on Saturday night.
Many could not go on to step #3, because they were not “cool” enough to handle the TRUE inner circle or because they were needed as a buffer zone… Close enough to the Moggies to swear they never saw anything funny going on. (Because they were deliberately kept out of the true inner circle)
Then, there was group #3. The men were willing to share their wives or girlfriends with other “men”. The women were ready if not eager to “bless the Moggie” with their vagina’s and big full lips… Once in, they liked it and wanted to convert others to the real goings on. They became recruiters.
Now, many invited from group #2 to group #3 did not want any part of it. They were appalled by it. In an effort to get them to shut up, they were campaigned against, such as discussed that they were possessed and not to be listened to, or they were bad corps.
I was in group #1, a wide eyed innocent coming from the field and very much in love with God and wanting to develop in the corps to serve God. I was brought into #2 quickly, placed on the Head Table and invited to meet “certain” people. When I was perceived as “cool” I was then introduced to the sick goings on and I said “NO WAY” I then, was taken from jobs like head table, and placed in refinishing where I could not harm anyone by my “Tales” or “Fables” of naked leaders begging for BJ’s and willing girls pushing others into it.
As a failure in group #3, I was then screamed at, accused of being possessed, treated like dog crap etc, the fear became over whelming and I truly believe the push was for me to commit suicide. Which I did entertain.
I then, full of fear, no longer acted our of love, but out of fear. And in my acting out of fear, I did behave in ways I am sickened by today. Pushing a class, witnessing to people out of fear (were I once did it out of love) and had them take a class I knew was the first step to crap. I always liked it when they took the class then left. I liked the class just not the crap after it.
The corps was like the movie “Training Day” with Denzel Washington.
So, no VPW could have never operated without the WC.
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TheHighWay
Exactly!!!... I guess that's why I've always looked at each person individually. Most corps, for most of their corps career, were just about as ignorant of the true monstrosity that was twi as was everyone else out there. So, my general point of view is that it is unprofitable to lump all the way corps into one basket of badness.
Then again: Why even talk of blame, you asked?
Because these threads and this forum are about understanding our past, in order to move beyond it. (at least that's what I think they are here for) And Bumpy brought up a viewpoint I hadn't really considered before... that the corps, by their very existence lent a certain solidity and credibility to twi. And the corps, often by their (albeit ignorant) actions, enforced a set of rules that allowed VP and the others to live a hidden life of debauchery. Are they to blame or are they victims? And make no mistake, blame is part of the equation. There is self-blame, blame of others, blame of the system itself. (I'm not saying it is beneficial, but I am saying what you think about blame will shape your perspective, attitudes, and future path from here on out.)
Hmm... now that I think about it, that is exactly the question that has been debated here regarding Mrs. Wierwille. Many of the same arguments on either side, too.
And I still keep coming back around to the quote at the beginning of this post: everyone has a deciding point. Prior to that, they were innocent victims (way corps, Mrs. Wierwille, or not). But once they KNOW and the innocence is gone, that's when I start judging them. Because they either walked away (good choice) or tried to hang in there and make things better from the inside and shield the believers as much as they could (probably not the best choice) or drank more koolade and ignored, defended, or refused to believe what they knew of the ugly side of twi (bad, bad choice). Those who deny what they know, or become overwhelmed by fear (as Dot pointed out a heavily used tool of twi) I still think of as victims. But those who ignore or defend, well, they just crossed over the line and became perpetrators, and that's where my forgiveness factor hits a much steeper incline.
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polar bear
Dear HighWay-
In answer to your questions-Yes I do think that VP would have done what he was going to do with or without the corps. He did it before the corps was formed. He and Craig would have had their goons around them whatever you want to call them.
As for the Corps I agree there were different types of individuals who went into it. That's why we can't blame all of them. Those who hurt others and lorded over others will have to answer for their deeds.
I was Corps and unfortunatley I got kicked out for not wanting to confront like they wanted me too. I refused to treat people the way they wanted me too. I always treated people the way I would want to be treated, with love and respect. I came from the bottom of the barrel and I know what it's like to be there.
When it all comes down to it there will be no labels at the return.
The question should be why didn't we get out earlier. Some did some didn't.
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excathedra
i wanted to go in the program because of the way it was sold to me
i'm sad i did
more hurt in life
i'm not sure i answered the question
i did meet really good people; some are still friends of mine
but i have really great friends who did not go in the program
and then there are really great friends who never went in the way
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coolchef
the wc was\is like apples
some good some rotten
some sweet some very tart
of course it was vic's and his henchmens fault
i like to believe that when new recruits went into wc for the most part thier hearts were in the right direction, to love and serve god, not man
but vic was the worm in the apple
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excathedra
vic never made me mean; he just frruccked up my head :)
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doojable
I entered the Way Corps just one year after taking PFAL...so I was young, and pretty innocent. I actually never knew of the sad and sadistic inner workings of the MOG's. I guess I wasn't cool. That's why P*t L*nn said I'd never amount to much as a leader.
OH WELL!!
I left when I received the decision paper from LCM... I pretty much had my foot out the door anyway by that point.
I never stopped trying to help people. Maybe that made me a decoy. It's been a long time and another lifetime ago.
I'd like to think I did serve God and that somewhere in all that mess something good came of it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille needed to have the adoration of people...the more people, the more he liked it.
We were warm bodies that went oooh and ahhh when he spoke, we were props...we entered his world and went into orbit around it...it was all about him. As previously mentioned, there were many corps who were "in on it"...most of us walked around ignorantly, with a sh *t eating grin and a green name tag...the waytree provided for a pecking order and a chance to climb to a higher branch in the tree...it allowed us to flex our egos and feed into the groupthink stream of wayworld...
...and there's plenty of blame to pass around. We empowered him with our disgusting man-worship...but of course there's a difference between honest mistakes and dishonest mistakes. I tip my hat to the sincere, those who were honestly seeking God's will and to do the right thing...BUT, to those who sold out to the carnal debauchery and knew they were doing wrong...and knew they were leading others down the same road...a pox upon you all.
There is a legitimate path in life that leads to Christian service...but it doesn't go through New Knoxville, Ohio...
The bottom line is that cult leaders cannot be cult leaders unless there are cult followers.
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excathedra
and another thing
good motives
good people
except maybe for the ones you're complaining about
but certainly not collective
screw veepee and everyone who looked like him
kaplunk
(that's the glass eye falling on the floor)
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Eyesopen
Absolutely! Most that followed him did so because they loved God and wanted to serve Him and his people. When that became unavailable or impractical they melted away. But the corps had been sucked deeper into the web of deception. They couldn't just 'melt away'. They had to unentangle themselves. Some felt they needed to save others as they pushed towards the door, and this sometimes entangled them more. Kind of like trying to leave a large party and always getting side tracked while saying your goodbyes.
Then there were those that liked it in the web. They liked the drama, the secrets and the power.
But VP he didn't care for any of them/us. He just needed them. He needed the corps, the way builders, the leaves, the WOW's, the secretaries, the people. As waysider said "Who would have cleaned the toilets or strung the chairs" (or something like that
)
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johniam
quote: The way corps program was ALOT more about indoctrination......than training.
OK so all the stuff about the integrity of the word, and being born again of incorruptible seed is bogus because of VPs private life? Don't think so. What if it really did good for the true God to have thousands of people at the same time so committed to God that they would relocate, put careers on hold, witness all the time, etc.? What if the devil really was overwhelmed by all of it and dreads that it could ever happen again? Does God think any less of us because we don't do it any more? Don't think so. What are some of you going to do after the return if God gives you a reward for something you did in the WC? Are you going to get all morally superior to God and refuse to take the reward?
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simonzelotes
Well,If I'm going to be part of a collective group that is going to be singled out for any kind of blame for something,I guess it would be good to know what I'm exactly being blamed for....If we're going to blame the way corps collectively,we'd have to assume that everyone who ever followed the way was collectively worse off because they joined...While the collective opinion at greasespot may be that twi was all bad and did little more than hurt people,that isn't a universally shared belief by every follower or former follower of the way...
I won't get into the specifics,but I suppose in my way corpse years I thought of myself as being part of some sort of fountain of living waters,and at the time I believed anybody and everybody's life could be improved by involving themselve's in way teachings...As it became clearer that the way was just another broken sistern,then it was time to move on...Let people find their own truth...There are people who I led that are happily involved in offshoots or in their own cozy,peaceful Christian existence somewhere---should I tell them I'm sorry for helping screw up their lives? While I don't doubt that every ex-follower of the way was at some point disappointed in or by the ministry and therefore left or were kicked out,I don't believe that 'disappointed' equals 'hurt'...
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Lifted Up
Simon, I know I haven't been around a whole lot lately, but it's nice to run into you somewhere other than the 9th corps or baseball threads. (Go Tribe!). No doubt I have missed plenty of previous opportunities.
I like your post. Of course I'm not the collective judge here of whether or not you are right on. But then, that's a big reason I like it. I have seen a lot of collective judgements here over the years of the "we were all screwed" type.
I am big on trying to learn more about how others were hurt in ways that I wasn't. I don't know if everyome I've talked to about that believes me or not, though I don't really care anymore whether they do or not. Somewhere along the line I get the feeling that if you mention even mention that not everyone was hurt, or that you personally were not hurt, it is like denying someone else's hurt. Or you get hit with the next step, like being asked if the good you or someone else got from TWI was worth someone else's hurt. An unfair question IMO because someone who has been badly hurt probably cannot know the good I see, just as I cannot really now their hurt. Anyway, in bringing this up, you are in no way whatsover denying that many were hurt, some deeply. You are just saying that not everyone fits into that category. But in just saying that, some seem to believe that it takes away from the idea of how bad TWI has been to many.
I don't consider myself as being hurt by my TWI life, or more specifically by my corps time. That includes that fall of 1979 at HQ, fellow taxman (inside remark). I got a lot out of those times that helps me now, though I would hardly categorize my Christian life as cozy and peaceful (I'll spare you the details). And yes, you are right, there was disapointment. I'd be happy to share with you or anyone about that, in the unlikely event that anyone wants to hear it. My e-mail is on my profile, I believe. By the way, I fit into neither of your categories...I neither left or was kicked out; I was yanked out right after the end of that fall.
Now, someone will say that of course no one was blaming you personally for anything bad. But as I think you are saying, there is a lot of collective blaming around.
Somehow I get the feeling, partly from a response by someone else on another thread, that in the corps and elsewhere in TWI, you were to some extent (maybe a big extent?) a pretty good "fountain of living waters".
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rascal
I think that we want to feel good about what we did because our motives were pure. (I don`t know if I count responding on this thread as I was app corpes 2 yrs before becoming corpes spouse)
I know that my motives were pure, I just don`t know if that made it right. I don`t think twi could have functioned without all of us, right down to Joe believer who did no more evil that bringing people to twig, and teacj=hing the bible in his house.
Our selfless love, our innocent enthusiasm was what lent an air of legitimacy to twi.
If people had seen what he was really like, what would be really expected of his dulous, they would have run far and fast.
As vrutal as this sounds, I feel like every single person corpes or not, who ever abs`d or witnessed, or taught ... bears some of the responsibility.
Though we did what we did in the name of God....who was eventually served? What was the end result??
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