Oh well!!!..................guess you musta got lost in them there transcripts, eh, mike???........no matter......you succeeded at derailing yet another perfectly good thread in your manic mission to bring attention to yourself and the insanity of your apostle vic...............
you know, mike,..........you pay a price for storing all your eggs in vic's basket of falsehoods!.........not many here really care what vic said, or wrote or tried to palm off as god's word..........and, our memories of what we saw, and heard, and experienced are far more important to us than any of your cherrypicked transcripts or "final written versions" of whatever perverted fantasies vic puked up on your table!...or, whatever "crucial details" you think we're forgetting.........you have the right to mess up your memories.......but you don't have the right to tell us what our's should or should'nt be!.........your hapless attempts at posting your apologeia for the life and "works" of a drunken, intellectually vapid, morally bankrupt, spiritual hitch-hiker just give us all the impression that you're the same type of person vic was......or trying really hard to be...............is that what you're trying to accomplish??.......are you just trying to be the man vic wished he should have been????........or are you trying to somehow justify to yourself and everybody else the man he actually was??................what do your transcripts have to say about that????.............................................peace!
You mean where by mastering PFAL as the Word of God, and doing all 9 all the time that you will then morph into your spiritual body and receive eternal life?
It was a conclusion based on putting two and two together. All life is spirit but all life isn't eternal life spirit. The soul of man is life but isn't eternal, like pneuma hagion spirit. Which makes the new birth and a resurrection/raising/gathering and Second Coming very important for those who have it.
Some two and two's don't add up though - when the soul dies, it's said to be gone. The P.H. goes back to God. ("incoming! Heads up, in Storage!") What gets resurrected? The soul? It's gone. So's the body. It can't be resurrected if it's actually "gone", it would have to recreated. So if there's a resurrection, what really happens? Recreation? I can buy that. But I don't think the details were ever fully gone into.
Advanced class was for those who had "mastered' PFAL, so to speak, who had their cookies in order and were prepared to make some "spiritually" intelligent conclusions about what the Word said.
The Vpster always said "it's all in PFAL". An interesting statement. Going from what was in PFAL, would a person logically progress to "cancer being a devil spirit" or being caused by a devil spirit's influence? Contact with a daimon can't be good, I'd grant you that, no question.
Yes and no. PFAL shied away from warm and fuzzies about pneuma hagion. The gift, spirit, was "Christ in you". God the give, upper case PH, gives spirit, lower PH and you now have God, in Christ, in you. Contact!
Now - details are short here. But PFAL also taught that p.h. wasn't automatically hmmm..."on". Believing ignites it's power. ("fire in the hole! Thrusters ON!") Decohmia, lambano.
The body therefore trundles along with spirit unactivated, when there's no renewed mind believing. So it has the same weaknesses as it always did, without believing God's Word.
Enter daimon. Looking for weakness. Healthy body - can't find a spot. Unhealthy body - this spot looks good.
Healthy body doesn't necessarily equal pneuma hagion and exousia - or renewed mind believing in God's Word. An atheist could have the same healthy body as a Christian, without the potential advantages of p.h. Or P.H. Which actually broadens the discussion of what exactly is "God's Word", I think.
Soooo - the Aspirin Adantage. A body's a body and functions by the same rules amongst all certified owners. If the attack is to the physical body, a physical solution could defend against it. But Big Hits require Big Medicine, and once a daimon has taken root, it's hard to drive out. But it can be driven out of the body.
There's a disconnect there - where's p.h. in all of this? Light dispels darkness. They can't exist at the same time right? So where and what is p.h. doing, making room for new tenants? If p.h. is "in me", what does that really mean?
Unfortunately, VPW didn't make it clear enough in PFAL what he was really talking about. A concept like cancer being a d.s. because it has "life of it's own" doesn't make sense. "My" p.h. has a life of it's own and it's "in" me, and functions with purpose as I pray and trust in God. I can't visualize every cell in my body, I can only pray for God's protection and my own safety and act according to mine and others best interests. It would seem that God's getting beat here, if the d.s. can tromp all over everyone.
But - not everyone we see. Why some, not others?
Questions, questions. I'm not "necessarily" saying it isn't so, but I don't think the PFAL series addresses enough information to fully qualify the conclusion. Which means to me it would have been better left unsaid.
I don't think VPW "morphed" his teaching at all, by AC '79. I'm sure that he wasn't entirely clear on this topic from the get-go. He suspected certain things, and felt within his own logic it could be, but the details were slim for good reason. My 2 cents.
If a devil spirit is so smart that he can manipulate or alter the complex chemicals in the brain, then counteracting relatively simple compounds such as an aspirin, anethestics, etc should be a walk in the park for any half-witted demon.
This kind of stuff most likely came from VPW's devil spirit paranoia/mania. He attempted to explain all things "bad"" in terms of direct attacks by demons. Spiritual warfare you know.
Goey, we were taught that some spirits were stupid in some ways and specialists in other ways. Just look at the fearsome “angel of death” that was tricked into killing only God’s enemies!
***
your hapless attempts at posting your apologeia for the life and "works" of a drunken, intellectually vapid, morally bankrupt, spiritual hitch-hiker just give us all the impression that you're the same type of person vic was......or trying really hard to be...............is that what you're trying to accomplish??.......
Is this an attack? An accusation?
Do you want to continue dialoging with me or do you want to insult and attack?
are you just trying to be the man vic wished he should have been????
I already answered this question in this thread.
You can find it for yourself since you're being so snotty with me!
........or are you trying to somehow justify to yourself and everybody else the man he actually was??................what do your transcripts have to say about that????.............................................peace!
PEACE? Are you trying to take back your attack or add peace on top of it?
Don’tWorry,
Why did you phrase your earlier question to me that way: “Did he EVER teach such and such?”
I have seen an early Foundational PFAL class photo. The banner in the back proudly says: “Gifts of the Spirit Class 1954” or something like that.
Did Dr EVER erroneously teach that there were 12 gifts of the spirit?
Yes.
Does that bother me, or should it bother anyone?
I don’t think so.
Something to note here: in Dr’s very last teaching, the one that was lost for 17 years, he issues his MOST important final instructions to us. In those final instructions he tells us to master the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, BUT the Advanced Class is CONSPICUOUSLY MISSING!
Not only that, but those instructions were repeated a SECOND time in that very short teaching, but AGAIN the ac is conspicuously missing!
The magazine editing was botched, so here are the tape quotes. This first one is early in the teaching:
“If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people --with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven’t got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-- put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve.”
Then the second one is towards the end of the teaching:
“Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral’s that go with it, you gotta master. Then you’ve got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving.”
In other words, at the end, he was warning us to not be so bogged down in the AC stuff. He also tried to warn us about Chris Geer in the same teaching. It’s taken me twenty years to see these warnings, and I’m sure some will complain it was too little too late, but I know it’s finally helped me and others to get things in perspective.
There’s a lot of AC stuff that I’m glad didn’t make it into the final printed form. Like I said earlier on this thread, I prefer to keep a lower priority on this stuff.
VPW didn't know anything about what he called devil spirits. Neither do you Mike.
You are so easy to pop up. Heck, and predictable too.
You would never believe what it is that has so many preoccupied that it is right there in their face. But God has sent them strong delusion that they should believe a lie. Yeah God does this for some.
Look it up it's in post number...I mean a verse in the bible that you hate so much.
Have fun playing with yourself, no one else will participate to your indulgences here.
But keep on speaking yeah, we learn a lot from the 'what it is not' approach. Not much but enough to see a few things.
Goey, we were taught that some spirits were stupid in some ways and specialists in other ways. Just look at the fearsome “angel of death” that was tricked into killing only God’s enemies!
[This supposition was unsupported by the evidence.
The angel of death intended to kill everyone it could.
It was permitted-one way or another-to do so.
It was not permitted-one way or another-to kill in households with the markers at the threshold.
It was allowed to do certain things and not allowed to do certain other things.
The idea that it was "tricked" is not there. It is added by the poster.
vpw would have called it "private interpretation."
But what else is new?]
***
Don’tWorry,
Why did you phrase your earlier question to me that way: “Did he EVER teach such and such?”
I have seen an early Foundational PFAL class photo. The banner in the back proudly says: “Gifts of the Spirit Class 1954” or something like that.
Did Dr EVER erroneously teach that there were 12 gifts of the spirit?
Yes.
Does that bother me, or should it bother anyone?
I don’t think so.
[see, Don,
Mike considers the pfal books-and not the tapes, videos, etc- to be God-breathed,
which is a state not accorded to the Bible.
For Mike to truly believe that vpw had the greatest revelation since the First Century Church,
he had to discredit the Bible in his own mind. So he did. He ignored the entire history of
the texts- since vpw never bothered to learn it, HE never taught it, and if vpw never
learned it, that's good enough for Mike-
and pretends the texts were nullified once 101 AD rolled around.
He considers them error-ridden, and useless.
On the other hand,
vpw can teach errors, and his stuff is completely viable.
No, it doesn't make sense to anyone ELSE, either.]
Something to note here: in Dr’s very last teaching, the one that was lost for 17 years, he issues his MOST important final instructions to us. In those final instructions he tells us to master the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, BUT the Advanced Class is CONSPICUOUSLY MISSING!
Not only that, but those instructions were repeated a SECOND time in that very short teaching, but AGAIN the ac is conspicuously missing!
The magazine editing was botched, so here are the tape quotes. This first one is early in the teaching:
“If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people --with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven’t got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-- put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve.”
Then the second one is towards the end of the teaching:
“Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral’s that go with it, you gotta master. Then you’ve got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving.”
In other words, at the end, he was warning us to not be so bogged down in the AC stuff. He also tried to warn us about Chris Geer in the same teaching. It’s taken me twenty years to see these warnings, and I’m sure some will complain it was too little too late, but I know it’s finally helped me and others to get things in perspective.
There’s a lot of AC stuff that I’m glad didn’t make it into the final printed form. Like I said earlier on this thread, I prefer to keep a lower priority on this stuff.
[The thing that Mike has elevated into a holy crusade is a teaching called
"the Joy of Serving" , one of the last tapes of vpw teaching.
The entire contents can be summarized as follows:
1) Christians outside twi dont have any truth, and no answers.
(That, apparently, included Leonard, other students of Stiles, Bullinger...)
2) pfal-foundational and intermediate- are really great.
3) You should do your best to serve-which means get people to take the foundational and intermediate class.
That's the best way to serve.
Mike has embraced that like Gabriel came down and issued him a personal message.
The rest of us see it as a sign that vpw was still pushing this elitist crapola
all the way till the end- shilling his classes, insisting twi was elite.]
But TWI made you feel it was treason to get medical help.
We had a woman with blood pressure problems she was prayed for and told if she really believed she would throw out her medications.
She did.
She died.
Now see, I distinctly remember a teaching where we were told NOT to throw out our meds until the meds themselves made us sick.
How the teachings morphed...
And what I just can't understand is, Why!
It's not like TWI had some great healing ministry going on.
That teaching came out right after she died and I believe BECAUSE she died. She died then there was the ROA at the horse track about a month later and it was taught there.
I distinctly remember that teaching.
I think it was about 1973 or 1974.
In retrospect, I think that teaching was just a way to cover their butts.
(snip)
Yes, it was in Lima, at the racetrack, in the middle of the afternoon, an unscheduled emergency meeting. I was there.
He also added that you shouldn't stop taking the meds until BOTH until they make you sick AND your medical doctor says to stop taking them.
Seems it's pretty straightforward.
vpw taught that prayer for healing was important, and once healing was prayed-for,
it was a sign of a lack of believing to continue taking medications,
and to be avoided,
since you were already healed and there was no need to confirm this with a doctor.
(Besides, doctors cost money, and you should be plurality-giving it.)
Then someone followed these instructions,
and dropped dead because she wasn't taking the medication that kept her alive,
and the miraculous healing never materialized.
So, shortly thereafter, vpw changed his tune, and advocated taking medication
rx'd by a doctor, at least until it's proven you no longer need it.
Goey, we were taught that some spirits were stupid in some ways and specialists in other ways. Just look at the fearsome “angel of death” that was tricked into killing only God’s enemies!
This statement places demons in the category of being more powerful than God.
God doesn't need to trick devil spirits.
This last statement is very, very telling IMHO. The angel of death was held back by blood on the thresholds of Israel.
Ummmm... this being the blood of the lamb that was slain and eaten in the Passover meal.
Jesus Christ is our Passover.
I have to wonder...
Would you say that God tricked the spirits there as well? He tricked them into beating and murdering His son?
If so, the cornerstone of Christianity is a huge trick on the devil and his minions? (There is no resurrection without a crucifixion, for those who are about to say that the resurrection is the cornerstone of Christianity. Two parts of a whole)
Spirits can be tricked by aspirin? God's plan for salvation comes down to a grand bit of trickery?
What hope do we have then? We have the name of Jesus Christ, and a handful of spiritual abilities - but they have no power because we need to learn how to trick the adversary.
Title of another class? (Tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
Looks like oldiesman's rose colored vic apologist bilinders have once again been "loosed" by the actual facts presented here by waysider!
.make no mistake about it.-vic most definitely taught that all cancer was "devil spirit possession"!!
if you had cancer, you were possessed!
when i first took the ac in rye, ny, april,1972, .vic was absilutely adamant about this!
i took the ac again in the summer of '72, and every summer thereafter ('72, '73, '74, '75' and '76) as well as the ac "specials" on discerning of spirits, word of knowledge and word of wisdom (summers of '74, '75 and '76, respectively)
at every one, vic remained absolutely adamant about this teaching!
"EVERYTHING THAT HAS LIFE OF ITSELF IS SPIRIT. ALL SPIRIT IS LIFE!"
it's not all life is spirit, it's "all sprit is life".
therefore, since everything that "has life of itself" is spirit,
.and "all spirit is life",
all cancer ( which according to vic, has "life of itself") is spirit-that is, devil spirits.
so, vic definitely taught, that, if you had cancer you were "possessed"!
no question about that!
on the closing night of the ac special on discerning of spirits, july,1974,
vic conducted a healing service.
during that service, at the front of the brc, vic personally "ministered" to a beloved, longstanding grad and fellow motorcycle enthusiast from flint, mi,-"happy jack" chandlee.
brc was packed and there were 2 meal tents set up in the brc parking lot for the overflow crowd.
vic himself "ministered" to "happy jack" with his microphone totally on and turned up!
he "cast out cancer spirits" from jack, which everyone could hear .
despite this, happy jack died of cancer 1 or 2 years later.
despite such public "failures", there remained no "budging" on this doctrine.
all of us who knew happy jack were terribly disappointed,
as was jack himself, who told me personally, that he felt
"terrible" that he could not "believe big enough to keep those damn spirits out"!
this kind of incident totally validates what dot said in her post here.
it was'nt until after vic's older brother, harry, died a cruel death from cancer in october,1977, that there was any progress away from vic's adamant stance regarding all cancer being caused by devil spirit possession.
even then, the doctrine "progressed" only as far as allowing for the possibility that not EVERY cancer was necessarily a "devil spirit"!
but, the general rule remained the same, even after vic's own death in 1985, from occular melanoma with liver metastasis.
vic's son, don, also died of lung cancer.
don't know how twi handled that..
but vic's death was euphamized so many different ways (especially by geer in pop!),
that the actual cause of his death was hardly known, even amongst the corps!
all the advances in cancer treatments , therapies and research, obviously point to the intellectual and medical ignorance the acceptance of this adamant doctrine requires...
for example, the vaccine now available to women which prevents cervical cancer, now known to be caused by the human pappiloma virus which is spread primarily via sexual contact,
and many other surgical and chemotherapeutic treatments for various cancers today...
can god heal people from cancer??
absolutely!
but so can the medical profession.
and, obviously....not all cancer is "devil spirit possession"!
dot's sentiment regarding twi's cruel, unnecessary condemnation that "pours water on a drowning man", is, imo, right on!
it does not deny god's ability or willingnes to heal cancer patients-
it exposes the ignorance and cruelty of vic's teachings regarding cancer, which, in effect, did more to hinder god's deliverance for cancer patients than to encourage it!
I have seen an early Foundational PFAL class photo. The banner in the back proudly says: “Gifts of the Spirit Class 1954” or something like that.
Well......surprise, surprise <_<
Knowing that wierwille sat through and then stole Rev. BG Leonard's class, The Gifts of the Spirit, in 1953..... wierwille was still running with Leonard's steam. So, it's no surprise what you saw this said banner displayed in "wierwille's class" in 1954. Do the math, mike.......it fits.
You see, Mike........Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, corroborates THE BACKGROUND of vpw learning this stuff FROM OTHER MEN. Here alittle, there alittle......this man, that man.......this seminar, that seminar......this book, that book.................it's all in there. So, when you attempt to vaunt wierwille as some incredible apostle......where he received "this new light as the heavens opened" you have to understand mike that SOME OF US HAVE READ MRS WIERWILLE'S BOOK.
Now, you're not calling Mrs. Wierwille a liar, a deciever......are you????
Goey, we were taught that some spirits were stupid in some ways and specialists in other ways. Just look at the fearsome “angel of death” that was tricked into killing only God’s enemies!
***
Don’tWorry,
Why did you phrase your earlier question to me that way: “Did he EVER teach such and such?”
I have seen an early Foundational PFAL class photo. The banner in the back proudly says: “Gifts of the Spirit Class 1954” or something like that.
Did Dr EVER erroneously teach that there were 12 gifts of the spirit?
Yes.
Does that bother me, or should it bother anyone?
I don’t think so.
Something to note here: in Dr’s very last teaching, the one that was lost for 17 years, he issues his MOST important final instructions to us. In those final instructions he tells us to master the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, BUT the Advanced Class is CONSPICUOUSLY MISSING!
Not only that, but those instructions were repeated a SECOND time in that very short teaching, but AGAIN the ac is conspicuously missing!
The magazine editing was botched, so here are the tape quotes. This first one is early in the teaching:
“If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people --with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven’t got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-- put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve.”
Then the second one is towards the end of the teaching:
“Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral’s that go with it, you gotta master. Then you’ve got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving.”
In other words, at the end, he was warning us to not be so bogged down in the AC stuff. He also tried to warn us about Chris Geer in the same teaching. It’s taken me twenty years to see these warnings, and I’m sure some will complain it was too little too late, but I know it’s finally helped me and others to get things in perspective.
There’s a lot of AC stuff that I’m glad didn’t make it into the final printed form. Like I said earlier on this thread, I prefer to keep a lower priority on this stuff.
I do not see anything about chris geer in these teachings Mike.
"IT HAS TAKEN ME TWENTY YEARS TO SEE THESE WARNINGS"
a little late MIke ? the guy has been dead for nearly three DECADES!
Im in the little late camp. where is the profit Mike after twenty years from a guy as devoted as you? But really where is your focus? where is the profit for God or Jesus Christ or their people?
twenty years figuring intellectual stuff out to suit your comfort needs. to say the cult was ok after all.
hello watered garden and waysider!............yes......'tis true......................harry died after a bout with colon cancer...........debbie zelov was his "private duty nurse".......when he returned to hq after fritz winegarner operated on him..............another sad case of euphamizing a cruel death due to cancer in the wierwille family..............harry's death was particularly traumatic for vic........especially his pain and suffering during the final days............it was sad indeed............peace.
it was the early fall of 1977, waysider........and, yes......the "sweeping under the carpet" aspect of this is disturbing.......that was my point in mentioning it in my first post on this thread........as i said,......the cancer/devil spirit possession doctrine was a growing "problem" for vic, especially when it hit as close to home as it did with harry........whom vic relied on for much more than financial support...........interesting, is'nt it.....that as close to fritz as wg apparently was/is.......that such a "secret" was so well kept!.....needless to say, these types of "situations" must have put fritz and others under quite a bit of pressure to maintain that kind of info in his "lockbox".......but, after all, dr./patient confidentiality is a professional requirement...........jane olthouse also pitched in providing care for harry........debbie was very compassionate in her nursing care and harry's death hit her hard too.........as it did all of us who knew harry back in the day......peace.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Oh well!!!..................guess you musta got lost in them there transcripts, eh, mike???........no matter......you succeeded at derailing yet another perfectly good thread in your manic mission to bring attention to yourself and the insanity of your apostle vic...............
you know, mike,..........you pay a price for storing all your eggs in vic's basket of falsehoods!.........not many here really care what vic said, or wrote or tried to palm off as god's word..........and, our memories of what we saw, and heard, and experienced are far more important to us than any of your cherrypicked transcripts or "final written versions" of whatever perverted fantasies vic puked up on your table!...or, whatever "crucial details" you think we're forgetting.........you have the right to mess up your memories.......but you don't have the right to tell us what our's should or should'nt be!.........your hapless attempts at posting your apologeia for the life and "works" of a drunken, intellectually vapid, morally bankrupt, spiritual hitch-hiker just give us all the impression that you're the same type of person vic was......or trying really hard to be...............is that what you're trying to accomplish??.......are you just trying to be the man vic wished he should have been????........or are you trying to somehow justify to yourself and everybody else the man he actually was??................what do your transcripts have to say about that????.............................................peace!
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Goey
It gets better.
Wait till you hear the one where Jesus returns, appearing in the clouds and holding a PFAL Book in his right hand.
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doojable
Shhhhh...you'll give away the dramatic ending.
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Goey
You mean where by mastering PFAL as the Word of God, and doing all 9 all the time that you will then morph into your spiritual body and receive eternal life?
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socks
It was taught.
It was a conclusion based on putting two and two together. All life is spirit but all life isn't eternal life spirit. The soul of man is life but isn't eternal, like pneuma hagion spirit. Which makes the new birth and a resurrection/raising/gathering and Second Coming very important for those who have it.
Some two and two's don't add up though - when the soul dies, it's said to be gone. The P.H. goes back to God. ("incoming! Heads up, in Storage!") What gets resurrected? The soul? It's gone. So's the body. It can't be resurrected if it's actually "gone", it would have to recreated. So if there's a resurrection, what really happens? Recreation? I can buy that. But I don't think the details were ever fully gone into.
Advanced class was for those who had "mastered' PFAL, so to speak, who had their cookies in order and were prepared to make some "spiritually" intelligent conclusions about what the Word said.
The Vpster always said "it's all in PFAL". An interesting statement. Going from what was in PFAL, would a person logically progress to "cancer being a devil spirit" or being caused by a devil spirit's influence? Contact with a daimon can't be good, I'd grant you that, no question.
Yes and no. PFAL shied away from warm and fuzzies about pneuma hagion. The gift, spirit, was "Christ in you". God the give, upper case PH, gives spirit, lower PH and you now have God, in Christ, in you. Contact!
Now - details are short here. But PFAL also taught that p.h. wasn't automatically hmmm..."on". Believing ignites it's power. ("fire in the hole! Thrusters ON!") Decohmia, lambano.
The body therefore trundles along with spirit unactivated, when there's no renewed mind believing. So it has the same weaknesses as it always did, without believing God's Word.
Enter daimon. Looking for weakness. Healthy body - can't find a spot. Unhealthy body - this spot looks good.
Healthy body doesn't necessarily equal pneuma hagion and exousia - or renewed mind believing in God's Word. An atheist could have the same healthy body as a Christian, without the potential advantages of p.h. Or P.H. Which actually broadens the discussion of what exactly is "God's Word", I think.
Soooo - the Aspirin Adantage. A body's a body and functions by the same rules amongst all certified owners. If the attack is to the physical body, a physical solution could defend against it. But Big Hits require Big Medicine, and once a daimon has taken root, it's hard to drive out. But it can be driven out of the body.
There's a disconnect there - where's p.h. in all of this? Light dispels darkness. They can't exist at the same time right? So where and what is p.h. doing, making room for new tenants? If p.h. is "in me", what does that really mean?
Unfortunately, VPW didn't make it clear enough in PFAL what he was really talking about. A concept like cancer being a d.s. because it has "life of it's own" doesn't make sense. "My" p.h. has a life of it's own and it's "in" me, and functions with purpose as I pray and trust in God. I can't visualize every cell in my body, I can only pray for God's protection and my own safety and act according to mine and others best interests. It would seem that God's getting beat here, if the d.s. can tromp all over everyone.
But - not everyone we see. Why some, not others?
Questions, questions. I'm not "necessarily" saying it isn't so, but I don't think the PFAL series addresses enough information to fully qualify the conclusion. Which means to me it would have been better left unsaid.
I don't think VPW "morphed" his teaching at all, by AC '79. I'm sure that he wasn't entirely clear on this topic from the get-go. He suspected certain things, and felt within his own logic it could be, but the details were slim for good reason. My 2 cents.
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Jim
<derail>
Reminds me of an old joke...
A Cardinal rushes into the Pope's apartment and says "Your holiness, your holiness, I gotta some good news and I gotta some bad news."
The Pope says "What's the good news?" The Cardinal says "Christ is back".
The Pope says, "What's the bad news?" The Cardinal says "He's in Salt Lake City".
</derail>
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Mike
Goey, we were taught that some spirits were stupid in some ways and specialists in other ways. Just look at the fearsome “angel of death” that was tricked into killing only God’s enemies!
***
Don’tWorry,
Why did you phrase your earlier question to me that way: “Did he EVER teach such and such?”
I have seen an early Foundational PFAL class photo. The banner in the back proudly says: “Gifts of the Spirit Class 1954” or something like that.
Did Dr EVER erroneously teach that there were 12 gifts of the spirit?
Yes.
Does that bother me, or should it bother anyone?
I don’t think so.
Something to note here: in Dr’s very last teaching, the one that was lost for 17 years, he issues his MOST important final instructions to us. In those final instructions he tells us to master the Foundational Class and the Intermediate Class, BUT the Advanced Class is CONSPICUOUSLY MISSING!
Not only that, but those instructions were repeated a SECOND time in that very short teaching, but AGAIN the ac is conspicuously missing!
The magazine editing was botched, so here are the tape quotes. This first one is early in the teaching:
“If you master the foundational class on Power for Abundant Living, and the intermediate class plus the collateral readings that accompany them, you have really something wonderful to serve people --with. That twig and twig area leader, and the country coordinators, leadership of the Corps, of the WOWs, have to all have this joy of serving. If you haven’t got the joy of serving you missed something in the Word of God you oughta ah-- put on. Heh, heh. So, number one, you gotta have something to serve.”
Then the second one is towards the end of the teaching:
“Number one, you have to take PFAL and master it -- Intermediate, you gotta master it; the collateral’s that go with it, you gotta master. Then you’ve got something to serve people. And then you have to do it with the love of God in the renewed mind, -- agapao. Then your service is just not a ministering service, it is a doulos service, where you are a marked-out slave for serving.”
In other words, at the end, he was warning us to not be so bogged down in the AC stuff. He also tried to warn us about Chris Geer in the same teaching. It’s taken me twenty years to see these warnings, and I’m sure some will complain it was too little too late, but I know it’s finally helped me and others to get things in perspective.
There’s a lot of AC stuff that I’m glad didn’t make it into the final printed form. Like I said earlier on this thread, I prefer to keep a lower priority on this stuff.
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cman
VPW didn't know anything about what he called devil spirits. Neither do you Mike.
You are so easy to pop up. Heck, and predictable too.
You would never believe what it is that has so many preoccupied that it is right there in their face. But God has sent them strong delusion that they should believe a lie. Yeah God does this for some.
Look it up it's in post number...I mean a verse in the bible that you hate so much.
Have fun playing with yourself, no one else will participate to your indulgences here.
But keep on speaking yeah, we learn a lot from the 'what it is not' approach. Not much but enough to see a few things.
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WordWolf
[This supposition was unsupported by the evidence.
The angel of death intended to kill everyone it could.
It was permitted-one way or another-to do so.
It was not permitted-one way or another-to kill in households with the markers at the threshold.
It was allowed to do certain things and not allowed to do certain other things.
The idea that it was "tricked" is not there. It is added by the poster.
vpw would have called it "private interpretation."
But what else is new?]
[see, Don,Mike considers the pfal books-and not the tapes, videos, etc- to be God-breathed,
which is a state not accorded to the Bible.
For Mike to truly believe that vpw had the greatest revelation since the First Century Church,
he had to discredit the Bible in his own mind. So he did. He ignored the entire history of
the texts- since vpw never bothered to learn it, HE never taught it, and if vpw never
learned it, that's good enough for Mike-
and pretends the texts were nullified once 101 AD rolled around.
He considers them error-ridden, and useless.
On the other hand,
vpw can teach errors, and his stuff is completely viable.
No, it doesn't make sense to anyone ELSE, either.]
[The thing that Mike has elevated into a holy crusade is a teaching called
"the Joy of Serving" , one of the last tapes of vpw teaching.
The entire contents can be summarized as follows:
1) Christians outside twi dont have any truth, and no answers.
(That, apparently, included Leonard, other students of Stiles, Bullinger...)
2) pfal-foundational and intermediate- are really great.
3) You should do your best to serve-which means get people to take the foundational and intermediate class.
That's the best way to serve.
Mike has embraced that like Gabriel came down and issued him a personal message.
The rest of us see it as a sign that vpw was still pushing this elitist crapola
all the way till the end- shilling his classes, insisting twi was elite.]
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WordWolf
Seems it's pretty straightforward.
vpw taught that prayer for healing was important, and once healing was prayed-for,
it was a sign of a lack of believing to continue taking medications,
and to be avoided,
since you were already healed and there was no need to confirm this with a doctor.
(Besides, doctors cost money, and you should be plurality-giving it.)
Then someone followed these instructions,
and dropped dead because she wasn't taking the medication that kept her alive,
and the miraculous healing never materialized.
So, shortly thereafter, vpw changed his tune, and advocated taking medication
rx'd by a doctor, at least until it's proven you no longer need it.
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doojable
This statement places demons in the category of being more powerful than God.
God doesn't need to trick devil spirits.
This last statement is very, very telling IMHO. The angel of death was held back by blood on the thresholds of Israel.
Ummmm... this being the blood of the lamb that was slain and eaten in the Passover meal.
Jesus Christ is our Passover.
I have to wonder...
Would you say that God tricked the spirits there as well? He tricked them into beating and murdering His son?
If so, the cornerstone of Christianity is a huge trick on the devil and his minions? (There is no resurrection without a crucifixion, for those who are about to say that the resurrection is the cornerstone of Christianity. Two parts of a whole)
Spirits can be tricked by aspirin? God's plan for salvation comes down to a grand bit of trickery?
What hope do we have then? We have the name of Jesus Christ, and a handful of spiritual abilities - but they have no power because we need to learn how to trick the adversary.
Title of another class? (Tongue firmly planted in cheek.)
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WordWolf
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skyrider
Well......surprise, surprise <_<
Knowing that wierwille sat through and then stole Rev. BG Leonard's class, The Gifts of the Spirit, in 1953..... wierwille was still running with Leonard's steam. So, it's no surprise what you saw this said banner displayed in "wierwille's class" in 1954. Do the math, mike.......it fits.
You see, Mike........Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, corroborates THE BACKGROUND of vpw learning this stuff FROM OTHER MEN. Here alittle, there alittle......this man, that man.......this seminar, that seminar......this book, that book.................it's all in there. So, when you attempt to vaunt wierwille as some incredible apostle......where he received "this new light as the heavens opened" you have to understand mike that SOME OF US HAVE READ MRS WIERWILLE'S BOOK.
Now, you're not calling Mrs. Wierwille a liar, a deciever......are you????
:unsure:
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pond
I do not see anything about chris geer in these teachings Mike.
"IT HAS TAKEN ME TWENTY YEARS TO SEE THESE WARNINGS"
a little late MIke ? the guy has been dead for nearly three DECADES!
Im in the little late camp. where is the profit Mike after twenty years from a guy as devoted as you? But really where is your focus? where is the profit for God or Jesus Christ or their people?
twenty years figuring intellectual stuff out to suit your comfort needs. to say the cult was ok after all.
who does this serve?
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Out There
Bottom line of all this. Consider:
It's all about the Benjamins.
Didn't start that way but later on it was
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pond
yeah it is about ben,
and that is ok
but
God get that and all and so much more ya know?
not exactly reaching for the stars if ya ask me.
i like ben too.
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socks
Warning - "Warning" - such an interesting word.
Danger Will Robnison!!! Danger!!!!
That's a warning.
***
Viruses, bacteria. Microscopic nasties.
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Ham
viruses.. nasties..
I didn't know that lysol or bleach could kill devil spirits..
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Watered Garden
Aspirin can kill a headache. It thins the blood.
I didn't know Uncle Harry died of cancer. I thought he had renal failure or something.
WG
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waysider
Ditto
This is the first I knew of it, too.
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socks
Joke -
What did the resentful bacteria say to the amazed cell colony?
We're all gall now.
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello watered garden and waysider!............yes......'tis true......................harry died after a bout with colon cancer...........debbie zelov was his "private duty nurse".......when he returned to hq after fritz winegarner operated on him..............another sad case of euphamizing a cruel death due to cancer in the wierwille family..............harry's death was particularly traumatic for vic........especially his pain and suffering during the final days............it was sad indeed............peace.
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waysider
I find it particularly disturbing that Watered Garden, who knew Dr. F. W. quite well, was kept in the dark on such an important matter.
Maybe the chronology doesn't fit. I don't know.
Still, it seems to me like something was being swept under the carpet.
All I'm saying is that it surprised me that even someone close to FW( like WG) was kept in the dark.
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DontWorryBeHappy
it was the early fall of 1977, waysider........and, yes......the "sweeping under the carpet" aspect of this is disturbing.......that was my point in mentioning it in my first post on this thread........as i said,......the cancer/devil spirit possession doctrine was a growing "problem" for vic, especially when it hit as close to home as it did with harry........whom vic relied on for much more than financial support...........interesting, is'nt it.....that as close to fritz as wg apparently was/is.......that such a "secret" was so well kept!.....needless to say, these types of "situations" must have put fritz and others under quite a bit of pressure to maintain that kind of info in his "lockbox".......but, after all, dr./patient confidentiality is a professional requirement...........jane olthouse also pitched in providing care for harry........debbie was very compassionate in her nursing care and harry's death hit her hard too.........as it did all of us who knew harry back in the day......peace.
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