I agree 100% Dont Worry. As a female, I walked out of the CF&S class the first time. I was appalled by the whole "submission" bit - people got very angry for me walking out. I said to one of the gals who ran it on the way out, "The only man I'll follow and submit to is Christ." Of course, later I retook it - had to to get in the corps. But the way VP was teaching it I knew somehow was just not right and it really po'ed me off. I had to walk.
I watched many of the top leadership and how they treated their wives - and it was appalling. I realized then I could never marry someone in the corps - if this is what they had been taught. Oh sure, they'd be great in the courtship phase - but who knew what hidden things would come up once I was "his" after marriage. I saw the nicest men turn into nasty people. Why? Because they could, they have been given a license to sin.
Yes, VP's misogyny I think was apparent to quite a few females. Some of the corps meetings he'd call for women only, he'd say the nastiest stuff about his wife - with her sitting next to him, or other women - I used to so wonder where he got his crudeness. I imagine he enjoyed it - humilating his wife and insulting women. He was just downright crude and lewd. I then wonder why we put up with it - cult mentality is all I can think of.
It always creeped me out that the criteria for the man (can`t remember his name) leading him to speaking in tongues, the thing that convinced vp to trust him.... was to be unspeakably rude to his wife in front of vp.
I know that our marriage has been scarred by the doctrine taught. I don`t put up with it any more, and some how in some indefinable way....that makes me less of a woman, unspiritual, unworthey of respect.
wow!!!!!.......tremendous posts by you twinky, watered garden, doojable, rascal, potato...................
the reason twi doctrine is laced with anti-woman venom is simple.........vic was a dyed-in-the-wool, really nasty MISOGYNIST!!...............he despised women......as if you women here at the spot had'nt already figured that out!!!...........he hated his mother, abused his wife and daughters, and inculcated that vicious misogyny into all the "leadership" training he ever devised or stole!
...........the impact of vic's misogynism cannot be underestimated........and it must be understood in order for folks to make any kind of sense out of the ridiculous teachings regarding the christian marriage relationship as twi taught it!.......the volume of marital dysfunction generated by these horrendous "teachings" also cannot be underestimated!.......i encourage all those who seek to unravel the twisted doctrines imposed upon their marriage by twi, to get a hold of that book......
Don'tWorry........thanks for spotlighting another twisted dimension of wierwille, of twi.
Time and time again, I've gone on record stating that "I deeply regret going into the corps program".........and, it becomes increasingly clear to me that the machinery behind wierwille's corps program was tooled to refabricate "vehicles of communication" in the image of wierwille.
No wonder the corps program was filled with mixed messages.......doublespeak doctorology. No wonder wierwille's life left such a wake of destruction. No wonder the wierwille cult is a possessive pillar of paranoia.
Seems that......wierwille twisted the scriptures every which way to bring IT into alignment with his self-serving demented mindset. And, the corps program was his little kingdom experiment.
That statement from CF&S sounds ever so much like a brick in the groundwork for "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king," or "it's not adultery if you are spiritual enough to handle it," or some of the other Word-twisting lines they used for seduction of the unsuspecting and unprepared.
I do think there was a statement in one of the classes, CF&S probably but it might have been PFAL (?), that a husband and wife are two people with two heads and two tongues and they should discuss things together. I think he also said that a husband should listen to a wife's opinion. Of course, the practise was quite different.
But I remember the WOW who witnessed to me (male) and I were walking in the town one day and he said to me that God would be able to tell a husband if a wife's purse was undone so that he could tell her and she could close the purse and not lose things or have things stolen. My question then was, "Why couldn't God just tell the woman herself?" and I got some such answer as "The man is responsible for the woman." I think he might have made some reference to Adam and Eve.
He was an AC grad, and at most at that stage I would have taken PFAL but perhaps not even that. So the seeds of this bullying behavior were already there from early indoctrination. It just got far worse in the Corps.
But I remember the WOW who witnessed to me (male) and I were walking in the town one day and he said to me that God would be able to tell a husband if a wife's purse was undone so that he could tell her and she could close the purse and not lose things or have things stolen. My question then was, "Why couldn't God just tell the woman herself?" and I got some such answer as "The man is responsible for the woman." I think he might have made some reference to Adam and Eve.
He was an AC grad, and at most at that stage I would have taken PFAL but perhaps not even that. So the seeds of this bullying behavior were already there from early indoctrination. It just got far worse in the Corps.
was he in oregon in the late 80s? I got some similar stuff from a WOW who was trying to woo me, that he was looking for a woman who he could "admonish" because he's the head of the house and it's his job to keep her on the "word".
I watched many of the top leadership and how they treated their wives - and it was appalling. I realized then I could never marry someone in the corps - if this is what they had been taught. Oh sure, they'd be great in the courtship phase - but who knew what hidden things would come up once I was "his" after marriage. I saw the nicest men turn into nasty people. Why? Because they could, they have been given a license to sin.
Yes, VP's misogyny I think was apparent to quite a few females. Some of the corps meetings he'd call for women only, he'd say the nastiest stuff about his wife - with her sitting next to him, or other women - I used to so wonder where he got his crudeness. I imagine he enjoyed it - humilating his wife and insulting women. He was just downright crude and lewd. I then wonder why we put up with it - cult mentality is all I can think of.
I felt the same way about the whole marriage issue - only I didn't want to marry anyone in twi at all. When I was younger I thought it would be nice to hace someone from twi to marry... as I got older and saw how guys treated their wives and girlfriends... I couldn't take it. I realized then and there I really wanted to marry someone outside the ministry. Even if I stayed in - I definitely wanted them to not take it too seriously? I always wondered if that made me a bad person or some unruley female.
I remember taking a marriage class or something once. The teachers told young women that they shouldn't have sex outside of marriage. They also said that if women didn't want to submit to a husband yet - they weren't ready for marriage. One of the teachers said that "some women are never ready for marriage." That really disturbed me. I wondered if that meant I could never have sex... ever! They also said we shouldn't get married outside of twi... but there were no guys my age!
They also said bad things happened to people if they had sex outside of their marriage. My friend was living with her boyfriend at the time. It really did a number on them mentally. They thought all of their bad luck was because they weren't married... even though it continued into their married life they thought things were getting better.
Everything was just so crazy.
I'm just so glad to be out and I got to marry a great fem guy hehe. ~_~ He is so lovely. Purr...
This thread reminded me of something I shared Sunday morning at the Texas BBQ:
John 10:11-13 NIV
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
I see the Way Corps program as a very twisted indoctrination process – the wolf groomed people to be hired hands serving TWI's agenda. The most loyal hired hands would look the other way when the wolf preyed upon the sheep – these hired hands cared nothing for the sheep…They only cared about what the wolf thought of them.
This thread reminded me of something I shared Sunday morning at the Texas BBQ:
John 10:11-13 NIV
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
I see the Way Corps program as a very twisted indoctrination process – the wolf groomed people to be hired hands serving TWI's agenda. The most loyal hired hands would look the other way when the wolf preyed upon the sheep – these hired hands cared nothing for the sheep…They only cared about what the wolf thought of them.
T-Bone - to be fair, the indoctrination of hired hands wasn't completely effective - you and Tonto are proof of that. I believe the ultimate goal of the program was to create a network of hired hands - who were so deceived that they thought they were actually were doing shepherd's work.
On another note:
Those Corps meetings and weekends.... they sukked! We didn't just attend them- we endured them. They were a necessary evil that came with signing up to be Korps.
It seems to me these meetings only served to foster division - or to somehow promote the program. (ie -"If you want to know what happens at these special events - sign on the line.") The idea that we were more spiritual was only set forth to make us guilty about what we weren't doing.
There was no special teaching" - except to tell us that we had to do a better job getting classes together. The face-meltings were more prominent because "we were all Korps."
While folks who didn't go to these meetings felt like they were lowly and not spiritual enough to handle what we were learning, we were being yelled at for not being spiritual enough and not able to handle what the MOGs wanted us to learn.
Occasionally we were told that we had greater resposibility because we had more training and knowlege.
I never saw beer at these meetings or felt like I was having a party. My WOW family always felt sorry for me because I had to go to one of these things while they visited after a meeting or enjoyed their day off. I always shared everything I learned and heard. I wasn't privy to any secrets and I never was in a meeting where non-corps were discussed in a negative fashion.
Then of course the Korps always knew that if they were "really special", they'd get to be clergy someday - that's where the real teaching was... <_<
T-Bone - to be fair, the indoctrination of hired hands wasn't completely effective - you and Tonto are proof of that.... <snip>
Yup - that's why I specified "the MOST LOYAL hired hands" were the ones who looked the other way! They willfully ignored, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized, justified or minimized any unconscionable acts of the wolf.
<snip>...I believe the ultimate goal of the program was to create a network of hired hands - who were so deceived that they thought they were actually were doing shepherd's work.
<snip>
Yes – we equated TWI's agenda with doing the work of the Shepherd.
Yup - that's why I specified "the most loyal hired hands" were the ones who looked the other way! They willfully ignored, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized, justified or minimized any unconscionable acts of the wolf.
some of them weren't even hired hands.. never made it through wow, way corps..
maybe the vicster let them have a taste of raw mutton..
I guess the very top made decent money, but most weren't there because they were hired, it was some sense of calling, obligation, blind attachment. And it was ego to be in charge and be able to boss people I guess. And there were those of us slaves that did setup for everything and classes etc. and never got paid ... but still ABS'ed.
Anyway ... it seems hired hands doesn't fit, because the twi jerks were loyal to the wolf, not the flock. The underlings actually herded the sheep up for the wolf to prey on ... they were all wolves ...
Of course it is just an analogy, so it can work the other way also ... it is not a pretty picture for the sheep in either scenario. :o
I suppose if we'd had real spiritual perception and awareness, we confused shepherd types would have shot the wolves ... or at least got the flock out of there a lot sooner.
some of them weren't even hired hands.. never made it through wow, way corps..
maybe the vicster let them have a taste of raw mutton..
true for those at the top, anyway..
I guess the very top made decent money, but most weren't there because they were hired, it was some sense of calling, obligation, blind attachment. And it was ego to be in charge and be able to boss people I guess. And there were those of us slaves that did setup for everything and classes etc. and never got paid ... but still ABS'ed.
Anyway ... it seems hired hands doesn't fit, because the twi jerks were loyal to the wolf, not the flock. The underlings actually herded the sheep up for the wolf to prey on ... they were all wolves ...
Of course it is just an analogy, so it can work the other way also ... it is not a pretty picture for the sheep in either scenario. :o
I suppose if we'd had real spiritual perception and awareness, we confused shepherd types would have shot the wolves ... or at least got the flock out of there a lot sooner.
The wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is just the way I see things.
There's other kinds of payoff besides money for the hired hands. Like Rhino talking about the ego-boost from being in charge of something. You didn't have to be Corps or paid staff – just serving TWI's agenda…so many folks thrived on the recognition given to those signing up lots of people for PFAL, abundantly sharing [and letting others know how much they gave], hosting a class at their home, etc.
…and many of us slaves believed the crap about how we were stacking up rewards in heaven for setting up chairs "with the love of god in the renewed mind in manifestation" – Wow! Talk about cheap labor – we were working for free!
Unbeknown to many hired hands - the CEO was a wolf! Jesus warned us in Matthew 7 about wolves in sheep's clothing. What I infer from Jesus' words is that these spiritual wolves know how to dress up their words/actions to give the appearance they are sheep. These wolves are very crafty....smart!!!!!! Sheep are dumb - hate to admit it but I'm a dumb sheep...
This whole wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is a very distasteful idea to think about - I was so thankful for Twinky sharing after I did at the BBQ - that was so uplifting...full of hope. She talked about actually seeing a shepherd working his flock and of the passage about the shepherd finding the one lost sheep. Her words resonated with me and offer hope for any Christian subjected to spiritual abuse.....yes - my shattered faith was healed by returning to the true shepherd - Jesus Christ...or should I say He rescued me!
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Sunesis
I agree 100% Dont Worry. As a female, I walked out of the CF&S class the first time. I was appalled by the whole "submission" bit - people got very angry for me walking out. I said to one of the gals who ran it on the way out, "The only man I'll follow and submit to is Christ." Of course, later I retook it - had to to get in the corps. But the way VP was teaching it I knew somehow was just not right and it really po'ed me off. I had to walk.
I watched many of the top leadership and how they treated their wives - and it was appalling. I realized then I could never marry someone in the corps - if this is what they had been taught. Oh sure, they'd be great in the courtship phase - but who knew what hidden things would come up once I was "his" after marriage. I saw the nicest men turn into nasty people. Why? Because they could, they have been given a license to sin.
Yes, VP's misogyny I think was apparent to quite a few females. Some of the corps meetings he'd call for women only, he'd say the nastiest stuff about his wife - with her sitting next to him, or other women - I used to so wonder where he got his crudeness. I imagine he enjoyed it - humilating his wife and insulting women. He was just downright crude and lewd. I then wonder why we put up with it - cult mentality is all I can think of.
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rascal
Wow, that makes a lot of sense.
It always creeped me out that the criteria for the man (can`t remember his name) leading him to speaking in tongues, the thing that convinced vp to trust him.... was to be unspeakably rude to his wife in front of vp.
I know that our marriage has been scarred by the doctrine taught. I don`t put up with it any more, and some how in some indefinable way....that makes me less of a woman, unspiritual, unworthey of respect.
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excathedra
i'm kind of afraid to read all this 'cause i'm in a happy mood.
i saw the last two posts by don'tworry and sunesis
i have to add this even though i've said it on here before
when i was walking past veepee and the geers delivering some puppies......
veepee spoke to B. worse than i would have ever spoken to a dog. it was beyond description
i stopped dead in my tracks in total utter shock (i was by myself and they didn't see me)
B. did something wrong in the way she pulled out one of the pups or something
veepee ripped into her like a maniac, a MONSTER
it scared the hell out of me (i thought i was back in my childhood with my father)
and what really really really got to me...... Mr. Geer didn't say A WORD
i could puke
okay, thanks
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pawtucket
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excathedra
ps. i only speak to dogs in a nice way so that wasn't a good way to describe it
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Sunesis
Ex - you're wonderful!! CG could do the same thing. They were peas in a pod. CG was VP's true soulmate.
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waysider
This is way off topic but a mention of CF&S brought this to mind.
In that class, VeePee makes the statement that, "intercourse is always a spiritual experience."
What the heck was that about?
Anyone else remember that statement in the class?
Maybe in some obtuse way it really is related to the topic of twisted indoctrinations.
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excathedra
never mind
sorry
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skyrider
Don'tWorry........thanks for spotlighting another twisted dimension of wierwille, of twi.
Time and time again, I've gone on record stating that "I deeply regret going into the corps program".........and, it becomes increasingly clear to me that the machinery behind wierwille's corps program was tooled to refabricate "vehicles of communication" in the image of wierwille.
No wonder the corps program was filled with mixed messages.......doublespeak doctorology. No wonder wierwille's life left such a wake of destruction. No wonder the wierwille cult is a possessive pillar of paranoia.
Seems that......wierwille twisted the scriptures every which way to bring IT into alignment with his self-serving demented mindset. And, the corps program was his little kingdom experiment.
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excathedra
i have said more than once that the corps program "did me in"
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Watered Garden
Waysider,
That statement from CF&S sounds ever so much like a brick in the groundwork for "all of the women in the kingdom belong to the king," or "it's not adultery if you are spiritual enough to handle it," or some of the other Word-twisting lines they used for seduction of the unsuspecting and unprepared.
Just a thought.
WG
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rascal
((((Ex)))) :(
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Twinky
I do think there was a statement in one of the classes, CF&S probably but it might have been PFAL (?), that a husband and wife are two people with two heads and two tongues and they should discuss things together. I think he also said that a husband should listen to a wife's opinion. Of course, the practise was quite different.
But I remember the WOW who witnessed to me (male) and I were walking in the town one day and he said to me that God would be able to tell a husband if a wife's purse was undone so that he could tell her and she could close the purse and not lose things or have things stolen. My question then was, "Why couldn't God just tell the woman herself?" and I got some such answer as "The man is responsible for the woman." I think he might have made some reference to Adam and Eve.
He was an AC grad, and at most at that stage I would have taken PFAL but perhaps not even that. So the seeds of this bullying behavior were already there from early indoctrination. It just got far worse in the Corps.
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potato
was he in oregon in the late 80s? I got some similar stuff from a WOW who was trying to woo me, that he was looking for a woman who he could "admonish" because he's the head of the house and it's his job to keep her on the "word".
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Twinky
No, Potato, this was in the UK - in the mid-80s...
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potato
guess it was all over. men from the same mean mold :(
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Nero
I felt the same way about the whole marriage issue - only I didn't want to marry anyone in twi at all. When I was younger I thought it would be nice to hace someone from twi to marry... as I got older and saw how guys treated their wives and girlfriends... I couldn't take it. I realized then and there I really wanted to marry someone outside the ministry. Even if I stayed in - I definitely wanted them to not take it too seriously? I always wondered if that made me a bad person or some unruley female.
I remember taking a marriage class or something once. The teachers told young women that they shouldn't have sex outside of marriage. They also said that if women didn't want to submit to a husband yet - they weren't ready for marriage. One of the teachers said that "some women are never ready for marriage." That really disturbed me. I wondered if that meant I could never have sex... ever! They also said we shouldn't get married outside of twi... but there were no guys my age!
They also said bad things happened to people if they had sex outside of their marriage. My friend was living with her boyfriend at the time. It really did a number on them mentally. They thought all of their bad luck was because they weren't married... even though it continued into their married life they thought things were getting better.
Everything was just so crazy.
I'm just so glad to be out and I got to marry a great fem guy hehe. ~_~ He is so lovely. Purr...
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T-Bone
This thread reminded me of something I shared Sunday morning at the Texas BBQ:
John 10:11-13 NIV
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
I see the Way Corps program as a very twisted indoctrination process – the wolf groomed people to be hired hands serving TWI's agenda. The most loyal hired hands would look the other way when the wolf preyed upon the sheep – these hired hands cared nothing for the sheep…They only cared about what the wolf thought of them.
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potato
wow, t-bone, that sent a shiver up my spine!
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doojable
T-Bone - to be fair, the indoctrination of hired hands wasn't completely effective - you and Tonto are proof of that. I believe the ultimate goal of the program was to create a network of hired hands - who were so deceived that they thought they were actually were doing shepherd's work.
On another note:
Those Corps meetings and weekends.... they sukked! We didn't just attend them- we endured them. They were a necessary evil that came with signing up to be Korps.
It seems to me these meetings only served to foster division - or to somehow promote the program. (ie -"If you want to know what happens at these special events - sign on the line.") The idea that we were more spiritual was only set forth to make us guilty about what we weren't doing.
There was no special teaching" - except to tell us that we had to do a better job getting classes together. The face-meltings were more prominent because "we were all Korps."
While folks who didn't go to these meetings felt like they were lowly and not spiritual enough to handle what we were learning, we were being yelled at for not being spiritual enough and not able to handle what the MOGs wanted us to learn.
Occasionally we were told that we had greater resposibility because we had more training and knowlege.
I never saw beer at these meetings or felt like I was having a party. My WOW family always felt sorry for me because I had to go to one of these things while they visited after a meeting or enjoyed their day off. I always shared everything I learned and heard. I wasn't privy to any secrets and I never was in a meeting where non-corps were discussed in a negative fashion.
Then of course the Korps always knew that if they were "really special", they'd get to be clergy someday - that's where the real teaching was... <_<
It wasn't right. It wasn't fair.
IT WAS A CULT!
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T-Bone
Yup - that's why I specified "the MOST LOYAL hired hands" were the ones who looked the other way! They willfully ignored, covered up, whitewashed, rationalized, justified or minimized any unconscionable acts of the wolf.
Yes – we equated TWI's agenda with doing the work of the Shepherd.
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Ham
some of them weren't even hired hands.. never made it through wow, way corps..
maybe the vicster let them have a taste of raw mutton..
true for those at the top, anyway..
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rhino
I guess the very top made decent money, but most weren't there because they were hired, it was some sense of calling, obligation, blind attachment. And it was ego to be in charge and be able to boss people I guess. And there were those of us slaves that did setup for everything and classes etc. and never got paid ... but still ABS'ed.
Anyway ... it seems hired hands doesn't fit, because the twi jerks were loyal to the wolf, not the flock. The underlings actually herded the sheep up for the wolf to prey on ... they were all wolves ...
Of course it is just an analogy, so it can work the other way also ... it is not a pretty picture for the sheep in either scenario. :o
I suppose if we'd had real spiritual perception and awareness, we confused shepherd types would have shot the wolves ... or at least got the flock out of there a lot sooner.
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T-Bone
The wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is just the way I see things.
There's other kinds of payoff besides money for the hired hands. Like Rhino talking about the ego-boost from being in charge of something. You didn't have to be Corps or paid staff – just serving TWI's agenda…so many folks thrived on the recognition given to those signing up lots of people for PFAL, abundantly sharing [and letting others know how much they gave], hosting a class at their home, etc.
…and many of us slaves believed the crap about how we were stacking up rewards in heaven for setting up chairs "with the love of god in the renewed mind in manifestation" – Wow! Talk about cheap labor – we were working for free!
Unbeknown to many hired hands - the CEO was a wolf! Jesus warned us in Matthew 7 about wolves in sheep's clothing. What I infer from Jesus' words is that these spiritual wolves know how to dress up their words/actions to give the appearance they are sheep. These wolves are very crafty....smart!!!!!! Sheep are dumb - hate to admit it but I'm a dumb sheep...
This whole wolf/hired hands/TWI thing is a very distasteful idea to think about - I was so thankful for Twinky sharing after I did at the BBQ - that was so uplifting...full of hope. She talked about actually seeing a shepherd working his flock and of the passage about the shepherd finding the one lost sheep. Her words resonated with me and offer hope for any Christian subjected to spiritual abuse.....yes - my shattered faith was healed by returning to the true shepherd - Jesus Christ...or should I say He rescued me!
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