I could answer this topic on a number of levels, since depression is not a cut and dried/black and white condition and I have suffered from it, have family who have been dramtically affected by it, have seen it in my students, and am studying to work with it in my masters degree in mental health counseling.
Here is what I basically believe:
When we get sick with a physical ailment (i.e. cancer, flu, broken bone, toothache), we seek out help.....a doctor, a dentist....some kind of medical personnel.
Mental concerns are no different.
It is usually due to a chemical imbalance....not devil spirits....it is brought on by any number of factors; stress, disease, trauma, genetics,...whatever.
I do believe that on occasion it can be spiritually influenced, but the perception/attitude towards the situation should be based on clinical data rather than an approach that is not based in psychometric data.
In other words....when we break a bone, we don't blame the devil for the pain and existence of that break (at least we don't if we are sane), we realize that a bone is broken so we pursue the means to heal the break.
You hurt a bone, you get a doctor.
You hurt inside (emotionally), you get a doctor.
In both instances you pursue healing, not blame for the hurt.
I ended up going to therapy for about five years and I was on Wellbutrin for 2 or 3 years, beginning in late 2000 when my marriage ended. I was clinically depressed. I feel, in my case, depression came about by just being in bad situations for an extended period of time.
TWI was always down on outside professional help; I remember Craig saying you shouldn't have to pay for someone to hear your problems when you have the "household." But there was no real help in TWI. You weren't supposed to have problems to begin with and if you did, it was your fault.
Depression is real. There's nothing wrong with getting help from people who know how treat it.
I ended up going to therapy for about five years and I was on Wellbutrin for 2 or 3 years, beginning in late 2000 when my marriage ended. I was clinically depressed. I feel, in my case, depression came about by just being in bad situations for an extended period of time.
In your case, while acknowledging the clinical side of depression, did part or much of the treatment consist of alleviating those bad situations? I mean, I have heras of people who are depressed who (seemingly) have everything, and I have heard of people depressed who had been fine earlier, but became depressed as the result of a great loss. Is there a significant difference?
I ended up going to therapy for about five years and I was on Wellbutrin for 2 or 3 years, beginning in late 2000 when my marriage ended. I was clinically depressed. I feel, in my case, depression came about by just being in bad situations for an extended period of time.
TWI was always down on outside professional help; I remember Craig saying you shouldn't have to pay for someone to hear your problems when you have the "household." But there was no real help in TWI. You weren't supposed to have problems to begin with and if you did, it was your fault.
Depression is real. There's nothing wrong with getting help from people who know how treat it.
Depression IS real. I've had family history of depression since long before I realized it. I have suffered from it since long before I experienced it acutely enough to HAVE TO acknowledge it. It IS treatable (medically), though for some, it may not go away permanently.
Indeed, symptoms often go beyond noticable sadness, and not just in young people.
Left untreated, it can cause serious physical/medical problems and to more extreme crises.
There are famous, widely recognizable Americans who have experienced severe depression. Many of us have seen public service TV spots done by Mike Wallace (from 60 Minutes) encouraging people to seek treatment rather than ignoring the problem. He beat depression, but NOT by "just snapping out of it."
I believe my family history made me susceptible and that long-term stress and emotionally traumatic events brought it on for me.
I still deal with it, but have been able to organize my life to minimize stresses and therefore can lead a reasonably normal life.
This is simply speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good deal of what many of us experienced from "hard a s s" (abusive) twi leadership corps or non-corps was a result of those persons being ill-prepared to cope with unreasonably high expectations that brought about some degree of depression in those persons.
In your case, while acknowledging the clinical side of depression, did part or much of the treatment consist of alleviating those bad situations? I mean, I have heras of people who are depressed who (seemingly) have everything, and I have heard of people depressed who had been fine earlier, but became depressed as the result of a great loss. Is there a significant difference?
Difference in the illness? NO.
Difference in what causes depression to manifest from one person to another? YES.
In your case, while acknowledging the clinical side of depression, did part or much of the treatment consist of alleviating those bad situations?
I think it was more about developing the skills to cope with my divorce, which came two years after leaving TWI. I had poor social skills and my self-esteem was in the toilet. My situation wasn't about to change any time soon.
I'm happy to say things are a lot better now. In my case, it just took time learning how life really works. I was in twi from age 17 to 43.
I think it was more about developing the skills to cope with my divorce, which came two years after leaving TWI. I had poor social skills and my self-esteem was in the toilet. My situation wasn't about to change any time soon.
I'm happy to say things are a lot better now. In my case, it just took time learning how life really works. I was in twi from age 17 to 43.
I think my depressive states stemmed from the same types of things. abuse by leaders brought on the worst depressions of my life, and my general depression was a result of my upbringing and marriage. getting help for my mental state brought about my divorce, then I left twi, and I'm happy to say my mental state is so much better. it takes a hell of a lot of work to change it, and although medication didn't work for me very well, there was one point when it made a big difference and I'm glad such medications are available. I kept it a secret from twi people though. didn't want to be a big stumbling block.
Thanks for the reply Roy -- out of 41 views you are the only who did - interesting.
(((((Outfield))))) The number of views normally has nothing to do with the responses. Remember that TWI (and CES) monitor this site. Depression is a hot button due to their insane teachings on the nature of it. Also, at least in my case, I may look at a topic, want to reply but not have the time to do so properly - or not know how to say what I want to say and decide to come back to it later. :) Such is the case with this thread.
I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown shortly before my exit from TWI and severely depressed. Professional help and anti-depressants helped tremendously. I have more to say (shock - shock) but can't right now. I just wanted to let you know that I'm some of your views with no response. :)
Depression IS real. I've had family history of depression since long before I realized it. I have suffered from it since long before I experienced it acutely enough to HAVE TO acknowledge it. It IS treatable (medically), though for some, it may not go away permanently.
Indeed, symptoms often go beyond noticable sadness, and not just in young people.
Left untreated, it can cause serious physical/medical problems and to more extreme crises.
There are famous, widely recognizable Americans who have experienced severe depression. Many of us have seen public service TV spots done by Mike Wallace (from 60 Minutes) encouraging people to seek treatment rather than ignoring the problem. He beat depression, but NOT by "just snapping out of it."
I believe my family history made me susceptible and that long-term stress and emotionally traumatic events brought it on for me.
I still deal with it, but have been able to organize my life to minimize stresses and therefore can lead a reasonably normal life.
This is simply speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good deal of what many of us experienced from "hard a s s" (abusive) twi leadership corps or non-corps was a result of those persons being ill-prepared to cope with unreasonably high expectations that brought about some degree of depression in those persons.
Difference in the illness? NO.
Difference in what causes depression to manifest from one person to another? YES.
btw, even though I said NO to difference in the illness, that's not a complete answer and could be misleading if taken alone. Each person who suffers from severe depression may experience a different set of symptoms...
TWI"s attitude about depression was very wrong, especially in the later years. We had a fellowship coordinator who met us at the door and demanded if we had our family decent and in order and our attitudes were positive, or we were not allowed in her gracious home. We had a rebellious son, were under the gun for that, and I had been diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes. So of course things were not decent and in order." We desperately needed real help, love, and understanding that this women could not provide, nor could anyone else in that organization. I was horribly depressed, I think they call it "situational depression." I always smiled, lied and said yes, of course, because they said to be depressed is a sin which either can or has already lead to possession with a spirit of depression. But inside I was desperate and lost.
The reason, in my opinion, for this insanity on the leader's and TWI's part is that they HAVE NO ANSWERS! Faced with the problems of life, TWI is like a person in the jungle who sees a huge bull elephant charging right at them, closes their eyes, and thinks that makes the elephant disappear!
You get people the help they need, period. If it's prayer, pray for them. If it's mental illness, pray on the way to the doctor's office.
Perhaps indeed the "believing," whatever that is, of some of these folks staved off physical and mental illness, but I doubt it. My personal opinion of LCM is that he may well suffer for some mental illness, and his "in-depth spiritual awareness and perception" didn't help him one darn bit.
I may be, in their evaluation, much less spiritual than they, but I think I am better equipped to help people than I was when I was "in."
In my experience, the possibility of depression, along with any other challenges related to the struggles of life on this fallen planet, carried a stigma, strongly related in TWI doctrine to demonization, etc. (A "staple" explanation for anything going less than the "BEST" in a person's life.)
Getting past this stigma is SO important in getting or giving help to someone who is struggling with it. The posts on this thread are very helpful, and well thought out, imo. I seem to keep coming back to a loud and clear, "LOOK AT THE FRUIT!" as I try to figure out the truth, the balance.
Rascal and others have shared some very excruciating experiences that occurred when a dear soul was deprived of the Love of God and fed some awful insinuation about it being all their fault.
It's a BIG job to represent Christ! I think I understand that better today than I ever have, and hope I understand it way more deeply in days to come.
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Speaking from personal experience – I have 3 points to share on the subject: realistic expectations, problem solving, and re-directing resources. This is what works for me – I'm not playing doctor or expert or making any recommendations – just sharing MY experience.
Realistic expectations: Meds and cognitive therapy make it manageable. I set realistic expectations – meds don't fix the problem - but allows me to fix other problems by freeing up my processor from unnecessary tasks – i.e. trying to fix or get rid of depression. Meds don't make me feel happy – what makes me feel happy is a sense of accomplishment. When I'm not distracted by depression I'm able to focus on stuff I can fix – and in the process of handling those things I see progress and find I feel good about myself.
Problem-solving: With proper meds and cognitive therapy it's like discovering the minimize/maximize buttons on a Windows program called "depression" – it's always running – I can't shut it down. But by use of cognitive therapy and meds – I'm able to determine how much attention and resources that particular Windows program will get. It's something I can't fix or delete – but it can overload my processor if I fixate on only trying to deal with that program.
Decision-making, analyzing situations, etc. are affected by how efficient my processor is running. Without meds/cognitive therapy it's very burdensome to handle any other problem - it's like showing up at a service call, being handed a square peg and a round hole and someone says "make it fit." I will get bogged down all day trying to figure that out.
But when I manage depression properly – I'm more efficient, resourceful and decisive on a service call. To fit the square peg in the round hole I may use a hole saw to make the hole bigger, a lathe to round off the square peg, do some research on finding an adapter, or stand back and ask "What's the priority on making them fit? Can I get some help on this? What's the worse that can happen if I can't make them fit? Who says they're supposed to fit?"
Re-directing resources: I try to turn a liability into an asset. So when depression tempts me to fixate on inward problems and failures – I often turn it into a self-improvement task: Feeling inept handling a project at work becomes finding out what training and resources I need to tackle it properly…Feeling sorry for myself over certain problems [like depression] can be directed to empathize with another person dealing with the same problem and seeing what we can work out together to resolve, better manage or minimize things.
2 good books: Feeling Good by David Burns [gets into cognitive therapy and how meds work] and Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert [explains how meds works, the intricacies of mind/body medicine].
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year2027
God first
Beloved Outfield
God loves you my dear friend
depression is a normal thing that we must deal with as part of life
I know noone that has not been depressed by things that can happen in life
it depressed me when I lost my mother but because of the love of my family I was able to deal with it
the word mourn can be a form of depression but God let people mourn for many days
but the way the Way acted was like get forget it move on thank God that God has more love than the Way cult did
and about medications they can help and there are others ways one talk to some one about it
for more look at a tread called "Ms. Shroyer on Depression" in "CES in Crisis"
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Outfield
Thanks for the reply Roy -- out of 41 views you are the only who did - interesting.
I was not referring to myself in the post. I was referring to someone else whom I have seen be mistreated for this illness and I was wondering
if anyone else had insite from their past experiences.
But thanks for the post --
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waysider
Outfield
Please refer to my post on CMan's thread(a god that was made).
I think it straddles the line between the two threads.
The friend that I referred to in my post was a schizophrenic who was being treated by mental health care professionals.
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Cindy!
Good question!
I could answer this topic on a number of levels, since depression is not a cut and dried/black and white condition and I have suffered from it, have family who have been dramtically affected by it, have seen it in my students, and am studying to work with it in my masters degree in mental health counseling.
Here is what I basically believe:
When we get sick with a physical ailment (i.e. cancer, flu, broken bone, toothache), we seek out help.....a doctor, a dentist....some kind of medical personnel.
Mental concerns are no different.
It is usually due to a chemical imbalance....not devil spirits....it is brought on by any number of factors; stress, disease, trauma, genetics,...whatever.
I do believe that on occasion it can be spiritually influenced, but the perception/attitude towards the situation should be based on clinical data rather than an approach that is not based in psychometric data.
In other words....when we break a bone, we don't blame the devil for the pain and existence of that break (at least we don't if we are sane), we realize that a bone is broken so we pursue the means to heal the break.
You hurt a bone, you get a doctor.
You hurt inside (emotionally), you get a doctor.
In both instances you pursue healing, not blame for the hurt.
(not sure I said this clearly, may edit later)
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year2027
God first
Beloved Outfield
God loves you my dear friend
your welcome
I have some past experiences listed in my life story
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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waysider
Outfield
I wanted to add that many times people confuse "feeling sad" with depression.
Although it can be one of the symptoms, it is much larger in scope than that.
In children, especially, it may manifest itself in ways that are not associated with "feeling sad".
(such as anger or extreme introversion)
There is a very good book(IMO) about depression in boys.
The book is Real Boys by Wm. Pollack, PhD.
There is another about girls called Reviving Ophelia by Mary Pipher, PhD.
TWI was never interested in considering anything that was contrary to their narrow minded definitions.
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outintexas
I ended up going to therapy for about five years and I was on Wellbutrin for 2 or 3 years, beginning in late 2000 when my marriage ended. I was clinically depressed. I feel, in my case, depression came about by just being in bad situations for an extended period of time.
TWI was always down on outside professional help; I remember Craig saying you shouldn't have to pay for someone to hear your problems when you have the "household." But there was no real help in TWI. You weren't supposed to have problems to begin with and if you did, it was your fault.
Depression is real. There's nothing wrong with getting help from people who know how treat it.
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Lifted Up
In your case, while acknowledging the clinical side of depression, did part or much of the treatment consist of alleviating those bad situations? I mean, I have heras of people who are depressed who (seemingly) have everything, and I have heard of people depressed who had been fine earlier, but became depressed as the result of a great loss. Is there a significant difference?
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Rocky
Depression IS real. I've had family history of depression since long before I realized it. I have suffered from it since long before I experienced it acutely enough to HAVE TO acknowledge it. It IS treatable (medically), though for some, it may not go away permanently.
Indeed, symptoms often go beyond noticable sadness, and not just in young people.
Left untreated, it can cause serious physical/medical problems and to more extreme crises.
There are famous, widely recognizable Americans who have experienced severe depression. Many of us have seen public service TV spots done by Mike Wallace (from 60 Minutes) encouraging people to seek treatment rather than ignoring the problem. He beat depression, but NOT by "just snapping out of it."
I believe my family history made me susceptible and that long-term stress and emotionally traumatic events brought it on for me.
I still deal with it, but have been able to organize my life to minimize stresses and therefore can lead a reasonably normal life.
This is simply speculation on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good deal of what many of us experienced from "hard a s s" (abusive) twi leadership corps or non-corps was a result of those persons being ill-prepared to cope with unreasonably high expectations that brought about some degree of depression in those persons.
Difference in the illness? NO.
Difference in what causes depression to manifest from one person to another? YES.
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outintexas
I think it was more about developing the skills to cope with my divorce, which came two years after leaving TWI. I had poor social skills and my self-esteem was in the toilet. My situation wasn't about to change any time soon.
I'm happy to say things are a lot better now. In my case, it just took time learning how life really works. I was in twi from age 17 to 43.
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potato
I think my depressive states stemmed from the same types of things. abuse by leaders brought on the worst depressions of my life, and my general depression was a result of my upbringing and marriage. getting help for my mental state brought about my divorce, then I left twi, and I'm happy to say my mental state is so much better. it takes a hell of a lot of work to change it, and although medication didn't work for me very well, there was one point when it made a big difference and I'm glad such medications are available. I kept it a secret from twi people though. didn't want to be a big stumbling block.
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Belle
(((((Outfield))))) The number of views normally has nothing to do with the responses. Remember that TWI (and CES) monitor this site. Depression is a hot button due to their insane teachings on the nature of it. Also, at least in my case, I may look at a topic, want to reply but not have the time to do so properly - or not know how to say what I want to say and decide to come back to it later. :) Such is the case with this thread.
I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown shortly before my exit from TWI and severely depressed. Professional help and anti-depressants helped tremendously. I have more to say (shock - shock) but can't right now. I just wanted to let you know that I'm some of your views with no response. :)
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Rocky
btw, even though I said NO to difference in the illness, that's not a complete answer and could be misleading if taken alone. Each person who suffers from severe depression may experience a different set of symptoms...
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Watered Garden
Outfield,
TWI"s attitude about depression was very wrong, especially in the later years. We had a fellowship coordinator who met us at the door and demanded if we had our family decent and in order and our attitudes were positive, or we were not allowed in her gracious home. We had a rebellious son, were under the gun for that, and I had been diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes. So of course things were not decent and in order." We desperately needed real help, love, and understanding that this women could not provide, nor could anyone else in that organization. I was horribly depressed, I think they call it "situational depression." I always smiled, lied and said yes, of course, because they said to be depressed is a sin which either can or has already lead to possession with a spirit of depression. But inside I was desperate and lost.
The reason, in my opinion, for this insanity on the leader's and TWI's part is that they HAVE NO ANSWERS! Faced with the problems of life, TWI is like a person in the jungle who sees a huge bull elephant charging right at them, closes their eyes, and thinks that makes the elephant disappear!
You get people the help they need, period. If it's prayer, pray for them. If it's mental illness, pray on the way to the doctor's office.
Perhaps indeed the "believing," whatever that is, of some of these folks staved off physical and mental illness, but I doubt it. My personal opinion of LCM is that he may well suffer for some mental illness, and his "in-depth spiritual awareness and perception" didn't help him one darn bit.
I may be, in their evaluation, much less spiritual than they, but I think I am better equipped to help people than I was when I was "in."
WG
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WordWolf
I wasn't one of them, but if I was, it would have been because I didn't have the time to compose
a WORTHY RESPONSE when first glancing at it.
Sometimes, I say "I'll respond when I have time", and that means I'd consider it an insult to the
poster and post for me to rattle off anything off the top of my head.
Of course, I can only speak for myself. Given how busy some of us were with a national holiday,
it's possible I wasn't the only one with limited time.
================
As I see it (and others have said),
there's no one single thing I'd call "depression."
There's the biochemical thing that can be inherited and treated partly with medication,
there's the cognitive thing that can be treated with counseling,
there's the inflicted behavioural thing that can be treated with both in parts.
Rarest of all would be anything spiritual in origin.
Even in those cases, I find it ridiculous to think that a demonic attack in an area would exist in
a void, that a demon would just hit someone in the abstract.
Consider the example of worshipping graven images. You don't see that too often in the US.
The people are not predisposed for it, so there's nothing for a demon to exploit in that fashion.
So, if someone were already vulnerable to a DIFFERENT origin for depression,
it would be possible (but rather rare) for a demon to compound that by attacking in that vector.
The idea that someone can just go around and pronounce all sorts of people as possessed or
oppressed by demons is ludicrous to me. Such things are not common, and this being casually-known
strains credulity. Far more common is some showboat who dislikes someone and decides
to "demonize" them by calling them possessed. We saw that LOTS of times in twi, under
different leaders (and often with vpw or lcm pronouncing the spiritual judgements.)
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outintexas
At the top of this page at the moment there's an ad that says "Depression Cured in 3 Minutes." The irony.
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cinderpelt
In my experience, the possibility of depression, along with any other challenges related to the struggles of life on this fallen planet, carried a stigma, strongly related in TWI doctrine to demonization, etc. (A "staple" explanation for anything going less than the "BEST" in a person's life.)
Getting past this stigma is SO important in getting or giving help to someone who is struggling with it. The posts on this thread are very helpful, and well thought out, imo. I seem to keep coming back to a loud and clear, "LOOK AT THE FRUIT!" as I try to figure out the truth, the balance.
Rascal and others have shared some very excruciating experiences that occurred when a dear soul was deprived of the Love of God and fed some awful insinuation about it being all their fault.
It's a BIG job to represent Christ! I think I understand that better today than I ever have, and hope I understand it way more deeply in days to come.
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
~Cinder
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T-Bone
Speaking from personal experience – I have 3 points to share on the subject: realistic expectations, problem solving, and re-directing resources. This is what works for me – I'm not playing doctor or expert or making any recommendations – just sharing MY experience.
Realistic expectations: Meds and cognitive therapy make it manageable. I set realistic expectations – meds don't fix the problem - but allows me to fix other problems by freeing up my processor from unnecessary tasks – i.e. trying to fix or get rid of depression. Meds don't make me feel happy – what makes me feel happy is a sense of accomplishment. When I'm not distracted by depression I'm able to focus on stuff I can fix – and in the process of handling those things I see progress and find I feel good about myself.
Problem-solving: With proper meds and cognitive therapy it's like discovering the minimize/maximize buttons on a Windows program called "depression" – it's always running – I can't shut it down. But by use of cognitive therapy and meds – I'm able to determine how much attention and resources that particular Windows program will get. It's something I can't fix or delete – but it can overload my processor if I fixate on only trying to deal with that program.
Decision-making, analyzing situations, etc. are affected by how efficient my processor is running. Without meds/cognitive therapy it's very burdensome to handle any other problem - it's like showing up at a service call, being handed a square peg and a round hole and someone says "make it fit." I will get bogged down all day trying to figure that out.
But when I manage depression properly – I'm more efficient, resourceful and decisive on a service call. To fit the square peg in the round hole I may use a hole saw to make the hole bigger, a lathe to round off the square peg, do some research on finding an adapter, or stand back and ask "What's the priority on making them fit? Can I get some help on this? What's the worse that can happen if I can't make them fit? Who says they're supposed to fit?"
Re-directing resources: I try to turn a liability into an asset. So when depression tempts me to fixate on inward problems and failures – I often turn it into a self-improvement task: Feeling inept handling a project at work becomes finding out what training and resources I need to tackle it properly…Feeling sorry for myself over certain problems [like depression] can be directed to empathize with another person dealing with the same problem and seeing what we can work out together to resolve, better manage or minimize things.
2 good books: Feeling Good by David Burns [gets into cognitive therapy and how meds work] and Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert [explains how meds works, the intricacies of mind/body medicine].
Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy Revised and Updated
Molecules Of Emotion: The Science Behind Mind-Body Medicine
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