What other feedback do you have about the "selection" process?
I don't know that they had a very good selection in the beginning. I was "selected" because I became engaged to a man who wanted to go into the WC. I had to cram all the classes into about a 9 month period and then take the test so I could go in with him. I guess everyone was saying good things about me and I passed the test so they let me in!!
I am very thankful they did though because I learned a lot and gained a lot of confidence in myself and my ability to do just about anything I set my mind to. But I don't think there were very many who were really qualified to lead people - especially as young as most of us were. What in the heck did teenagers and 20 year olds know about leading anything - we could barely lead ourselves. And there weren't very many "adults" coming into the ministry.
I felt like the ministry grew too fast and there weren't enough really good qualified leaders to lead the mass exodus of kids who were coming in. It created a major problem for people when they got leadership who were too young and who had massive egos! A lot of abuse happened in MANY different arenas. It may have taken a long time for the ministry to die but it sure devastated a lot of people on it's way down.
When leadership is rotten from the top down or from the bottom up (however you want to look at the Way Tree) it is impossible for God's plan to survive in that Ministry that He tried to work in. He gives "churches" opportunities to carry His plan out just like He does people - it's just on a bigger level.
I don't think there were very many who were really qualified to lead people - especially as young as most of us were. What in the heck did teenagers and 20 year olds know about leading anything - we could barely lead ourselves. And there weren't very many "adults" coming into the ministry.
You're right on that. I recall the WoWs who witnessed to me were young and enthusiastic - but didn't really know anything about life and real practical help in dealing with problems (including "gray areas" which so much of life is!). One WoW went into the Corps but he was slightly older by a few years and he wasn't long there.
I wonder if so many would have been so keen to sign up if it had meant going to a seminary for four years and actually training for priesthood/ministerial/pastoral responsibility in a more usual setting?
But what would the TCs (or whoever) have to say about such young and enthusiastic kids? Was it any different for FC applicants? Were their children also subject to references or otherwise vetted for suitability?
IMO... The main quailification to go wc was the ability to pay the tuitation and used chapstick befor kissing @$...
. exactly what I was thinking ... just show them the money ... and did anyone really get kicked out? unless it was for not having the money? Ars kissing was less a requirement than the money ... I imagine you got kicked out once your income was below the break even point, unless you were a carpenter or had some special skills ... (like being good in kneepads) :o
Twinky said: I wonder if so many would have been so keen to sign up if it had meant going to a seminary for four years and actually training for priesthood/ministerial/pastoral responsibility in a more usual setting?
Twinky,
In reality we were underpaid ($20/mo) workers.
In reality our sponsors paid for our room and board.
In reality we worked at least 10 hours a day - and sometimes more.
In answer to your question, no probably not. But it was the 60s & 70s and everyone was wanting to get on a different bandwagon and march to a different drummer. So we did.
By the 4th Corps it was already rotten in Denmark but it was before the "mark and avoid" era so we were still having fun. The "liberty in Christ" they were teaching us and doing was so off the mark that it opened the doors for much worse spiritual things later on. VPW used to say, "where there is sexual fornication you will find spiritual fornication" and he was right. It was the beginning of the end. He said it would be either sex or money that would bring the ministry down and he was right about that too. The sad thing about it was that he was the one who was teaching it to us - he started it, I heard it with my own ears. Did a whole lot of us follow blindly? Yes. Are we responsible for our own actions in spite of what one man taught us and led us into? Yes. Are we sorry? I think most of us are.
The "priesthood/ministerial/pastoral" pool was already tainted from early Corps and it just got worse and eventually self destructed. A lot of people got hurt in the process. Did VP have a ministry? I think he did. But I think he blew it and I think he chose the wrong person to succeed him. CM carried on a legacy that is unclean and unscriptural but VP started that legacy. It's ironic that VP saved so many kids from the drugs and sexual revolution in the world (from that time period) but utterly destroyed people and sent them down the wrong path with the "liberty" within the confines of spirituality.
But, it's enlightening to me when I come on boards like these and see all the people who stayed faithful to God, recovered and healed from the abuse, many, including leadership, who went on to start their own fellowships and churches and many who went into mainstream religion. I don't think it was VPWs idea of Word Over the World but I think it was a part of God's plan. Proverbs 19:21 says, "Man devises all their plans but God's purpose will prevail". When you believe God is soverign you begin to see things a little differently.
IMO... The main quailification to go wc was the ability to pay the tuitation and used chapstick befor kissing @$$...
Too funny Zshot!!! And with only $20/mo spending money we sometimes couldn't even afford the chapstick. but every once in a blue moon we would get free beer and a free hamburger
And yes, I think TWI needed us to do the work and the money from sponsorship - free workers and free money!! see my other post in this thread for my real thoughts on what WC was all about.
Well I sponsored my WOW sister, so no one made a deal of it with me. The second year I didn't sponsor anyone, or if I did I wasn't very faithful. In fact I think I sponsored someone in 3rd year FLO who had gone in the WC but she didn't write letters so I didn't write checks. And of course the really bad thing about this requirement was that most of us had little enough after our $150/month for rent and utilities and $6/week for the food program, which did not cover every meal we ate (and did cover many meals we did NOT want to eat).
When times started getting tough, I split the 10 dollars between the two.
Just to keep things in perspective, I think I probably made something like $2.00 or $2.25 an hour at my "9-5" job.
When the checks got smaller, the letters got fewer.
I don't think there was really any way for them to monitor this accurately because it would have required assigning a FLO to do the monitoring since WE did all that type of work. We would have known who was given that chore.
The monthly fee was another matter. There were 6 per house. Each of us paid $150.
That's $900 a month.(Times 8 "houses".)
There is just no way an apartment cost that kind of money in 1975, especially in the rural area where we were located.
Yeah, there was the $6 fee too. ----No $6=No eat( Though you had to sit with those who did and could not accept sharing from anyone.)
And, you had to buy your own lunch and do laundry with what little you had.
It just kinda burns my butt that we where paying for the privilege to be poor.
Anyway, I apologize for driving this so far off-topic.
I think the original emphasis was on the actual contents that comprised the Corps application.
But I think he blew it and I think he chose the wrong person to succeed him.
Yes, he did choose the wrong person, but I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.
From what DontWorry posted in another thread regarding CM, J S*merville and Vp's relationship and what happened as a result of the survival P.O.W. camp debacle with CM, I kinda think Vp chose him as a successor because of CM's weaknesses and shortcomings.
Also, from what I've gathered from those who've closely served him, Vp was a jealous man and needed to be "on top" in all situations, especially among any peers, even if it was only in his own mind, that might have held true even when picking a successor.
Part of the problem with the Corps application process was that the program itself was thrown together on the fly by Wierwille. He had no experience in developing training programs and didn't bring anyone on board who did.
Twinky, I remember all the forms, reviews, and hoops we had to jump through to get into the corps, but looking back, I'm sure the only ones who got screened out were ones the local leadership didn't get along with or thought couldn't come up with the money!! What they really seemed the most focused on was: Did you take all the classes? (cha-ching) Did you get everything on your 'must have' list? (smoooooch) Did you get your tuition in on time? (cha-cha-cha-ching)
Yes, I saw folks leave the corps for reasons other than money, but mostly it was because they wouldn't kiss up to the leadership. I know a few who were positively looney who they helped stay in as long as possible, and several who got the "lack of humility" label stamped on them as they were sent packing, which meant the local leadership would be on strict orders to have their nose all up in that person's business, if you know what I mean.
We put so much unjustified trust in these people to have our best interests at heart. For instance, during my last year in-rez I knew some folks who were involved in grouping folks into their WOW families, and I learned very quickly that "walking by the spirit" meant "wildly guessing". To hear them talk they practically put pictures on the wall and threw darts to match people up!! That was one of many incidents that last few months of training that I closeted away and tried to forget as I was accepting my assignment and moving to someplace completely foreign to me to spend my time doing their bidding...
For instance, during my last year in-rez I knew some folks who were involved in grouping folks into their WOW families, and I learned very quickly that "walking by the spirit" meant "wildly guessing". To hear them talk they practically put pictures on the wall and threw darts to match people up!!
I'd suspect it was worse than that in some cases. It would fit the fraud that some assignments were special ... perhaps those that might blow the whistle on hypocrisy and fraud were more apt to be sent to bumpluck, Arkansas ... while those more willing to play along went to more interesting spots? I certainly like Bluefield, WV better than Pine Bluff, Arkansas ... but if they'd sent me to Maine or Seattle I may have stayed there. (even northern Arkansas would have been much nicer than the smelly grid iron that was Pine Bluff.)
Anyway, it just seems likely some had connections to get certain places with certain people ... it would be interesting to hear the scoop on that. Of course all corps/wows were equal, but some were more equal than others. <_<
I remember VP smuggly criticizing denominational Christianity for using "five senses" criteria in determining where to send missionaries. He flat out stated that he just asked God where to send them and God told him. He made a big deal out of it.
The guy was either delusional or one dang good con-man.( probably both.)
The same hype surrounded ordinations.
We were always led to believe that an ordination signified a genuine gift ministry.
When someone got ordained, people would speculate on which gift ministry/ies the person had.
I think there must have been some who actually did, but that's not really the point, now is it?
Part of the problem with the Corps application process was that the program itself was thrown together on the fly by Wierwille. He had no experience in developing training programs and didn't bring anyone on board who did.
I'll go a step farther.
vpw had a conventional education-high school, college, grad school- but no experience even
PARTICIPATING in any kind of training program. With no experience in the development of
one, the running of one, or even the participating IN one, he was totally clueless in what
was needed.
THAT's the man that threw this program together on the fly, and didn't bring anyone on
Twinky, I remember all the forms, reviews, and hoops we had to jump through to get into the corps, but looking back, I'm sure the only ones who got screened out were ones the local leadership didn't get along with or thought couldn't come up with the money!! What they really seemed the most focused on was: Did you take all the classes? (cha-ching) Did you get everything on your 'must have' list? (smoooooch) Did you get your tuition in on time? (cha-cha-cha-ching)
lcm himself stated (in "vp and me") that the sole criterion he was given as to whether or not he
would be able to stay in the corps was, in vpw's own words,
"YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!"
That should tell people something.
Yes, I saw folks leave the corps for reasons other than money, but mostly it was because they wouldn't kiss up to the leadership. I know a few who were positively looney who they helped stay in as long as possible, and several who got the "lack of humility" label stamped on them as they were sent packing, which meant the local leadership would be on strict orders to have their nose all up in that person's business, if you know what I mean.
We put so much unjustified trust in these people to have our best interests at heart. For instance, during my last year in-rez I knew some folks who were involved in grouping folks into their WOW families, and I learned very quickly that "walking by the spirit" meant "wildly guessing". To hear them talk they practically put pictures on the wall and threw darts to match people up!! That was one of many incidents that last few months of training that I closeted away and tried to forget as I was accepting my assignment and moving to someplace completely foreign to me to spend my time doing their bidding...
Someone here once posted that a wow assignment they were aware of WAS determined
at the toss of a coin-and the coin-tosser claimed that's how they normally did it.
There was some question as to whether or not they were kidding about that being
how they NORMALLY did it, but that time it was done by coin-toss.
I gitta question...was anyone here...or does anyone know someone...who applied and was rejected from the start?
I applied only about 5 months after PFAL, after making the decision at 2 months, after a word of inspiration from my aprrentice 7th corps PFAL instructor...he didnt tell me to sign up, but what he did say "inspired" me. I was accepted, though by then I had already become a frequent volunteer at limb HQ.
Wow, Lifted, he must have set a great example, if you wanted to sign up after only 2 months. But did you have any idea what you were getting into?
I do know someone who was rejected right at the start because of not having the right level of education. There was a bare minimum requirement (basically, you could read and write, and have a cert to prove it) and if there was no cert to prove it, rejected until it was produced.
There were others in my Corps who were also very recent after PFAL, less than 12 months, with little previous Christian experience, so newness in the Word wasn't a disqualification.
The criteria for entering the corps was getting your sponsership together (of course, you had to have completed the necessary indoctrination classes)....Oftentimes, people who had no business entering a leadership training program were encouraged to do so because it made the local leadership look good if they had big recruitment numbers. This was also true of getting people to take the class and to go out wow...
Promotions within twi were based heavily on the number of recruits that a leader could muster...this included ordination. Those who were ordained were the ones who they thought could generate the most money into the cult bank account.
Interesting enough, once twi had your non-refundable money and you were in residence...THEN the screening process kicked in to a higher level. Many folks were screened out AFTER they paid their money.
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Edi
What other feedback do you have about the "selection" process?
I don't know that they had a very good selection in the beginning. I was "selected" because I became engaged to a man who wanted to go into the WC. I had to cram all the classes into about a 9 month period and then take the test so I could go in with him. I guess everyone was saying good things about me and I passed the test so they let me in!!
I am very thankful they did though because I learned a lot and gained a lot of confidence in myself and my ability to do just about anything I set my mind to. But I don't think there were very many who were really qualified to lead people - especially as young as most of us were. What in the heck did teenagers and 20 year olds know about leading anything - we could barely lead ourselves. And there weren't very many "adults" coming into the ministry.
I felt like the ministry grew too fast and there weren't enough really good qualified leaders to lead the mass exodus of kids who were coming in. It created a major problem for people when they got leadership who were too young and who had massive egos! A lot of abuse happened in MANY different arenas. It may have taken a long time for the ministry to die but it sure devastated a lot of people on it's way down.
When leadership is rotten from the top down or from the bottom up (however you want to look at the Way Tree)
it is impossible for God's plan to survive in that Ministry that He tried to work in. He gives "churches" opportunities to carry His plan out just like He does people - it's just on a bigger level.
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Twinky
You're right on that. I recall the WoWs who witnessed to me were young and enthusiastic - but didn't really know anything about life and real practical help in dealing with problems (including "gray areas" which so much of life is!). One WoW went into the Corps but he was slightly older by a few years and he wasn't long there.
I wonder if so many would have been so keen to sign up if it had meant going to a seminary for four years and actually training for priesthood/ministerial/pastoral responsibility in a more usual setting?
But what would the TCs (or whoever) have to say about such young and enthusiastic kids? Was it any different for FC applicants? Were their children also subject to references or otherwise vetted for suitability?
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Zshot
IMO... The main quailification to go wc was the ability to pay the tuitation and used chapstick befor kissing @$$...
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Sweetpea
And you have to know how to spell.
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rhino
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Edi
Twinky said: I wonder if so many would have been so keen to sign up if it had meant going to a seminary for four years and actually training for priesthood/ministerial/pastoral responsibility in a more usual setting?
Twinky,
In reality we were underpaid ($20/mo) workers.
In reality our sponsors paid for our room and board.
In reality we worked at least 10 hours a day - and sometimes more.
In answer to your question, no probably not. But it was the 60s & 70s and everyone was wanting to get on a different bandwagon and march to a different drummer. So we did.
By the 4th Corps it was already rotten in Denmark but it was before the "mark and avoid" era so we were still having fun. The "liberty in Christ" they were teaching us and doing was so off the mark that it opened the doors for much worse spiritual things later on. VPW used to say, "where there is sexual fornication you will find spiritual fornication" and he was right. It was the beginning of the end. He said it would be either sex or money that would bring the ministry down and he was right about that too. The sad thing about it was that he was the one who was teaching it to us - he started it, I heard it with my own ears. Did a whole lot of us follow blindly? Yes. Are we responsible for our own actions in spite of what one man taught us and led us into? Yes. Are we sorry? I think most of us are.
The "priesthood/ministerial/pastoral" pool was already tainted from early Corps and it just got worse and eventually self destructed. A lot of people got hurt in the process. Did VP have a ministry? I think he did. But I think he blew it and I think he chose the wrong person to succeed him. CM carried on a legacy that is unclean and unscriptural but VP started that legacy. It's ironic that VP saved so many kids from the drugs and sexual revolution in the world (from that time period) but utterly destroyed people and sent them down the wrong path with the "liberty" within the confines of spirituality.
But, it's enlightening to me when I come on boards like these and see all the people who stayed faithful to God, recovered and healed from the abuse, many, including leadership, who went on to start their own fellowships and churches and many who went into mainstream religion. I don't think it was VPWs idea of Word Over the World but I think it was a part of God's plan. Proverbs 19:21 says, "Man devises all their plans but God's purpose will prevail". When you believe God is soverign you begin to see things a little differently.
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Edi
Too funny Zshot!!!
And with only $20/mo spending money we sometimes couldn't even afford the chapstick. 
but every once in a blue moon we would get free beer 
and a free hamburger 
And yes, I think TWI needed us to do the work and the money from sponsorship - free workers and free money!! see my other post in this thread for my real thoughts on what WC was all about.
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Tom Strange
...as has been mentioned before $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
...unless you were a complete wacko ...but then, I guess that got you "in" sometimes as well!
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waysider
When I was in Fellow Laborers, part of the agreement was that we would each sponsor someone in the corps.
Bottom line is:
1.We payed to be in the FL program.
No pay------------
2.We had to work secular jobs so we could ABS.
3.We spent nearly every free hour doing limb work for free.
AND
4.We had to sponsor someone in the corps.
If this wasn't a money making scheme, I'll be a monkey's prayer partner!!
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Edi
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Watered Garden
Well I sponsored my WOW sister, so no one made a deal of it with me. The second year I didn't sponsor anyone, or if I did I wasn't very faithful. In fact I think I sponsored someone in 3rd year FLO who had gone in the WC but she didn't write letters so I didn't write checks. And of course the really bad thing about this requirement was that most of us had little enough after our $150/month for rent and utilities and $6/week for the food program, which did not cover every meal we ate (and did cover many meals we did NOT want to eat).
WG
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waysider
I sponsored 2 people at 10 dollars a month.
When times started getting tough, I split the 10 dollars between the two.
Just to keep things in perspective, I think I probably made something like $2.00 or $2.25 an hour at my "9-5" job.
When the checks got smaller, the letters got fewer.
I don't think there was really any way for them to monitor this accurately because it would have required assigning a FLO to do the monitoring since WE did all that type of work. We would have known who was given that chore.
The monthly fee was another matter. There were 6 per house. Each of us paid $150.
That's $900 a month.(Times 8 "houses".)
There is just no way an apartment cost that kind of money in 1975, especially in the rural area where we were located.
Yeah, there was the $6 fee too. ----No $6=No eat( Though you had to sit with those who did and could not accept sharing from anyone.)
And, you had to buy your own lunch and do laundry with what little you had.
It just kinda burns my butt that we where paying for the privilege to be poor.
Anyway, I apologize for driving this so far off-topic.
I think the original emphasis was on the actual contents that comprised the Corps application.
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now I see
Yes, he did choose the wrong person, but I believe he knew exactly what he was doing.
From what DontWorry posted in another thread regarding CM, J S*merville and Vp's relationship and what happened as a result of the survival P.O.W. camp debacle with CM, I kinda think Vp chose him as a successor because of CM's weaknesses and shortcomings.
Also, from what I've gathered from those who've closely served him, Vp was a jealous man and needed to be "on top" in all situations, especially among any peers, even if it was only in his own mind, that might have held true even when picking a successor.
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Oakspear
Part of the problem with the Corps application process was that the program itself was thrown together on the fly by Wierwille. He had no experience in developing training programs and didn't bring anyone on board who did.
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TheHighWay
Twinky, I remember all the forms, reviews, and hoops we had to jump through to get into the corps, but looking back, I'm sure the only ones who got screened out were ones the local leadership didn't get along with or thought couldn't come up with the money!! What they really seemed the most focused on was: Did you take all the classes? (cha-ching) Did you get everything on your 'must have' list? (smoooooch) Did you get your tuition in on time? (cha-cha-cha-ching)
Yes, I saw folks leave the corps for reasons other than money, but mostly it was because they wouldn't kiss up to the leadership. I know a few who were positively looney who they helped stay in as long as possible, and several who got the "lack of humility" label stamped on them as they were sent packing, which meant the local leadership would be on strict orders to have their nose all up in that person's business, if you know what I mean.
We put so much unjustified trust in these people to have our best interests at heart. For instance, during my last year in-rez I knew some folks who were involved in grouping folks into their WOW families, and I learned very quickly that "walking by the spirit" meant "wildly guessing". To hear them talk they practically put pictures on the wall and threw darts to match people up!! That was one of many incidents that last few months of training that I closeted away and tried to forget as I was accepting my assignment and moving to someplace completely foreign to me to spend my time doing their bidding...
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rhino
I'd suspect it was worse than that in some cases. It would fit the fraud that some assignments were special ... perhaps those that might blow the whistle on hypocrisy and fraud were more apt to be sent to bumpluck, Arkansas ... while those more willing to play along went to more interesting spots? I certainly like Bluefield, WV better than Pine Bluff, Arkansas ... but if they'd sent me to Maine or Seattle I may have stayed there. (even northern Arkansas would have been much nicer than the smelly grid iron that was Pine Bluff.)
Anyway, it just seems likely some had connections to get certain places with certain people ... it would be interesting to hear the scoop on that. Of course all corps/wows were equal, but some were more equal than others. <_<
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waysider
Okay, again I'm off topic.
I remember VP smuggly criticizing denominational Christianity for using "five senses" criteria in determining where to send missionaries. He flat out stated that he just asked God where to send them and God told him. He made a big deal out of it.
The guy was either delusional or one dang good con-man.( probably both.)
The same hype surrounded ordinations.
We were always led to believe that an ordination signified a genuine gift ministry.
When someone got ordained, people would speculate on which gift ministry/ies the person had.
I think there must have been some who actually did, but that's not really the point, now is it?
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rhino
I'd wonder why God would have "his gift ministers" ordained by such a corrupt, harmful, fraudulent type group.
Maybe it just meant they were full of the spirit of Wierwille type BS ... true ministers were probably shunned by twi ...
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waysider
Hmmmm!
"A spirit of Wierwille type BS"
I think he may have skipped that one in the Advanced Class.
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WordWolf
I'll go a step farther.
vpw had a conventional education-high school, college, grad school- but no experience even
PARTICIPATING in any kind of training program. With no experience in the development of
one, the running of one, or even the participating IN one, he was totally clueless in what
was needed.
THAT's the man that threw this program together on the fly, and didn't bring anyone on
board who did.
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WordWolf
lcm himself stated (in "vp and me") that the sole criterion he was given as to whether or not he
would be able to stay in the corps was, in vpw's own words,
"YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!"
That should tell people something.
Someone here once posted that a wow assignment they were aware of WAS determined
at the toss of a coin-and the coin-tosser claimed that's how they normally did it.
There was some question as to whether or not they were kidding about that being
how they NORMALLY did it, but that time it was done by coin-toss.
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Lifted Up
I gitta question...was anyone here...or does anyone know someone...who applied and was rejected from the start?
I applied only about 5 months after PFAL, after making the decision at 2 months, after a word of inspiration from my aprrentice 7th corps PFAL instructor...he didnt tell me to sign up, but what he did say "inspired" me. I was accepted, though by then I had already become a frequent volunteer at limb HQ.
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Twinky
Wow, Lifted, he must have set a great example, if you wanted to sign up after only 2 months. But did you have any idea what you were getting into?
I do know someone who was rejected right at the start because of not having the right level of education. There was a bare minimum requirement (basically, you could read and write, and have a cert to prove it) and if there was no cert to prove it, rejected until it was produced.
There were others in my Corps who were also very recent after PFAL, less than 12 months, with little previous Christian experience, so newness in the Word wasn't a disqualification.
(edited for spelling)
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GrouchoMarxJr
It was always about the money...
The criteria for entering the corps was getting your sponsership together (of course, you had to have completed the necessary indoctrination classes)....Oftentimes, people who had no business entering a leadership training program were encouraged to do so because it made the local leadership look good if they had big recruitment numbers. This was also true of getting people to take the class and to go out wow...
Promotions within twi were based heavily on the number of recruits that a leader could muster...this included ordination. Those who were ordained were the ones who they thought could generate the most money into the cult bank account.
Interesting enough, once twi had your non-refundable money and you were in residence...THEN the screening process kicked in to a higher level. Many folks were screened out AFTER they paid their money.
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