I dunno. I think it was still as warped thinking, just perhaps we didn't know better. It's called.. young and dumb.
Were we storing up treasures for all eternity? Now I doubt it.. somehow I don't think "eternity" will start with an interview with the lord.." lord, lord, I sat through seventy pfal classes, assisted in twenty, ran the tapes in forty, served the refreshments.."
I run into the same thing today. "Whadya need a degree for, when you can have the WORD?"
"What makes that SO IMPORTANT?"
my answer: "tough *%".. go get your own life.."
Young and dumb is the right label! As for the interview with the Lord, DARN! I had everything counted! But after learning the TRUTH, all I'm afraid I would have heard at that point in my life was, "Depart from me, I never knew you!"
Degrees? Did somebody say degrees? Uh-huh!
Guess what Ham, you don't need to be in TWI post or current to hear that one. Well meaning pastors and church goers have already told me that one and said things such as "What do you have to pay all of that money for to learn about the bible, when all you ever had to do was just open the bible and the knowledge just falls out for you to pick up in such rich handfuls. Some of the pastors were jealous that I knew more than them, me thinks.
Another change...........around 1981 or 1982, the corps logo was changed.
The corps logo WAS a five-pointed star with an inner circle......and a 'C' (for Christ) in the core center. Apparently, the program was view to be 'christ-centered'.........with strength and ability derived from there.
The corps logo WAS CHANGED to a five-sided pentagon.......with double borders, the five gift ministries (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) 'bordering' each side. Inside the pentagon logo were an opened-bible, a sword, and 12 oak leaves.....symbolizing spiritual learning, the sword of the spirit and strength (oak leaves). Others may describe it better, but that's what I remember.
In hindsight...........I find it amazing to see how much was shifting and changing at the converging point of wierwille stepping down.
But....like Groucho has stated, the deception and lies from the trustees were in the fabric of many corps. And now, when one steps back and puts the pieces together............the puzzle is NO LONGER puzzling.........wierwille conned us with sleight of hand.....
Because he was a con man is exactly the point! vp had followers convinced that TWI's agenda was God's agenda… "Good works" as defined by vp: get people signed up for PFAL, abundantly share [give over and above 10 percent of your finances] to TWI…and most importantly, put TWI ahead of your own family, career and personal life!
Part of vp's con was getting followers to perpetuate his con.
This subject has come up before and it always fires me up...
When I signed up for the 10th corps...the papers I signed said it was a 4 year training program with an OPTION to take assignments if you wanted to...I am absolutely certain of this...Rumrunner can back me up on this.
A few months into the in residence training at Emporia, Lcm announced to us that the corps was a lifetime committment and not a 4 year committment...and he went on to say that if we didn't understand that, we didn't "get it" yet. I have no recollection of anybody, other than myself, objecting to this...I was furious! To me, it was a classic "bait and switch" and I let a few people know about it...next thing I know, I was reassigned to Rome City and the entire wooden spoon culture of Bob Moneyhands...
In my opinion, the "Lifetime of Christian service" was always a description of how a person lived after they chose their own path...it was never a lifetime committment to follow orders from any particular man or organization. They baited you in with the idea that you were doing a 4 year program and after they put the hooks in you, they switched it for a lifetime of servitude to them. If you didn't buy into that concept, you were told that you were "spiritually immature" or had no "real committment"...
Maybe that's why it was so easy for me to walk away from twi...I never took that final step of committing my life to them...I always kept twi and God seperate.
Bears repeating.................I always kept twi and God seperate.
Ever-so-subtle though.......twi was endeavoring to MESH THE TWO TOGETHER.
Cliches were a used often............"The word is the ministry and the ministry is the word."............. :blink:
Other cliches like..........."It's the word, the word and nothing but the word.".......or......"We have no friends when it comes to the word."
Yep.....no wonder EVEN TODAY there are those who postulate....."Pfal is the word and the word is pfal."
Or.......those accepted into the corps program were/are CALLED OF GOD.
I know, I know............all churches and denominations do it. But then......not all had a founding president who drank his coffee/drambuie while he taught his seminary students, sexually assaulted some female students, openly plagiarized from others, adamantly taught that the holocast was a hoax, that popes were born of the wrong seed, or a plethora of other toxic doctrines.......BUT THEN, it seems that most wierwille-defenders embrace his "pfal foundation" and NOT ALL THE OTHER STUFF.
Of course, many of those stern "defenders of wierwille's faith"..........NEVER WENT CORPS and sat thru his explosive temper-tantrums, his vicious criticisms, and all.
Of course, many of those stern "defenders of wierwille's faith"..........NEVER WENT CORPS and sat thru his explosive temper-tantrums, his vicious criticisms, and all.
and some of those who did, and want to continue his legacy seem to exhibit selective amnesia..
In hindsight, it's amazing how Wierwille crafted together the foundation of twi...The bible had been around for centuries and it was Wierwille's job to make himself the authority of it and thus the "spokesman for God"...The bible teachings themselves were nothing special...a mish mash of fundamentalist teachings stolen from Christian writers...it was the snow on the gas pumps that sealed the deal...it was the hook...it was the way he meshed together twi and "God"...and the stories that followed like the man in India and the snowstorm in Tulsa were designed to reinforce the original "snow on the gas pumps" story...
Believing Vic's bullsh *t was not like believing other things in life...He was making a claim that was singular in importance. I mean, "God talked to this guy!!!"...how do you top that one? Better yet, how did Vic look himself in the mirror after lying in God's name and watching thousands believe him?
...and the waycorps was his dreamchild...we were the sold out minions who would grovel at his feet and carry out his money making schemes...we were the flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz who carried off small children...
...I can still hear Dorothy crying, "run Toto run"...
Of course, many of those stern "defenders of wierwille's faith"..........NEVER WENT CORPS and sat thru his explosive temper-tantrums, his vicious criticisms, and all.
The explosive temper tantrums and vicious criticisms of the teacher doesn't negate the truth in the teachings. :)
The doctrine will stand or fall on its own irrespective of the temper tantrums of the teacher. I've been saying that over and over again yet some still don't get it.
Honestly I don't like to argue about doctrine, its not fun and don't like to go there that much ... I would say if your beliefs have drastically changed since twi, then I respectfully disagree and best we can do is try to accentuate and have agreement in what we do agree on, if anything.
Oldies........seeing how you jumped on my last sentence, I thought it better to show you the CONTEXT of several things in my post.
Yep.....no wonder EVEN TODAY there are those who postulate....."Pfal is the word and the word is pfal."
Or.......those accepted into the corps program were/are CALLED OF GOD.
I know, I know............all churches and denominations do it. But then......not all had a founding president who drank his coffee/drambuie while he taught his seminary students, sexually assaulted some female students, openly plagiarized from others, adamantly taught that the holocaust was a hoax, that popes were born of the wrong seed, or a plethora of other toxic doctrines.......BUT THEN, it seems that most wierwille-defenders embrace his "pfal foundation" and NOT ALL THE OTHER STUFF.
Of course, many of those stern "defenders of wierwille's faith"..........NEVER WENT CORPS and sat thru his explosive temper-tantrums, his vicious criticisms, and all.
And, Oldies.......you say that you don't like to talk doctrine......but the corps program was taught a plethora of other toxic doctrines. Heck, even wierwille's teaching that "cancer is a devil spirit" SHOULD open a few eyes, right?......since wierwille died of cancer.
Add the conspiracy theories, add the holocaust "hoax" teachings, add the Jonestown stuff, add the documented plagiarism, add the "all nine all the time" jibberish, add the paranoia of geer and others whom wierwille allowed close to him, etc. etc...................all these dots CONNECT TO ONE BIZARRE, NARCISSTIC MAN.
When some keep bringing up pfal jargon............lots of us corps were introduced to wierwille's world as he saw it.
"Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation."
(Page 10 of the AC syllabus.)
Really??
Kinda makes a fella wonder how all those cats in the OT ever heard anything.
Oh, Wait! They don't count 'cause they are from "another" administration.
And hey, not just "speak in tongues", but "speak in tongues daily".
Hmmmm.---- This has got me thinking, now.
Anybody know off-hand how Dr.s' phenomenal experiences, such as the gas pumps and the snow storm and God telling him He would teach like no other, etc., fit with his being led into tongues? Do you suppose he was speaking in tongues daily when those events took place?
WAIT!!!
What am I saying?
Of course he must have been.
He said himself that it's a prerequisite for revelation.
The doctrine will stand or fall on its own irrespective of the temper tantrums of the teacher. I've been saying that over and over again yet some still don't get it.
Honestly I don't like to argue about doctrine, its not fun and don't like to go there that much ... I would say if your beliefs have drastically changed since twi, then I respectfully disagree and best we can do is try to accentuate and have agreement in what we do agree on, if anything.
...Question: How could you tell when Wierwille was lying?
...Answer: When his lips were moving.
How can you believe ANYTHING that man said?...He has no more credibility than Jim Jones or David Koresh.
My motto is... Wierwille said it, I don't believe it, that settles it.
There's an old drunk who wears an army coat and stands on the street corner preaching...I believe HIM more than anything Wierwille said. I think the bible tells us to beware of false teachers...Wierwille's lifestyle qualifies him for that and that puts everything he ever taught in serious question...
This subject has come up before and it always fires me up...
When I signed up for the 10th corps...the papers I signed said it was a 4 year training program with an OPTION to take assignments if you wanted to...I am absolutely certain of this...Rumrunner can back me up on this.
A few months into the in residence training at Emporia, Lcm announced to us that the corps was a lifetime committment and not a 4 year committment...and he went on to say that if we didn't understand that, we didn't "get it" yet. I have no recollection of anybody, other than myself, objecting to this...I was furious! To me, it was a classic "bait and switch" and I let a few people know about it...next thing I know, I was reassigned to Rome City and the entire wooden spoon culture of Bob Moneyhands...
In my opinion, the "Lifetime of Christian service" was always a description of how a person lived after they chose their own path...it was never a lifetime committment to follow orders from any particular man or organization. They baited you in with the idea that you were doing a 4 year program and after they put the hooks in you, they switched it for a lifetime of servitude to them. If you didn't buy into that concept, you were told that you were "spiritually immature" or had no "real committment"...
Maybe that's why it was so easy for me to walk away from twi...I never took that final step of committing my life to them...I always kept twi and God seperate.
Looks like he was right, maybe you did not get it yet,maybe you still don't. It appears that from the start they were interested in training leaders who would work for the ministry ,to lead in the field, to know the ministry . I suppose they wanted them to learn all that so that they could just go do their own thing. Yeah thats the ticket learn all about something so you can be useless upon graduation to the organization, Not likely what exactly would be the point ? the pay off for The Way in training people to be productive for someone else? It appears to me that they had a different view all along, and it was pretty clear. Well to most.......
We started the first Way Corps then, the fall of 1969,especially for that purpose,to prepare leaders.
This second year Corps they're terrific. There are nine of them who came in the fall of 1970 and will graduate this year in August after the Rock of Ages. Then they're ready to lead in the field. That'll be a great day. They've stood through thick and thin, They've grown, and they really understand this ministry. VPW - The Way Living in Love pg 235,236
It appears that from the start they were interested in training leaders who would work for the ministry ,to lead in the field, to know the ministry .
considering they "trimmed" about say, ninety nine percent of these "qualified" "trained" "leaders" from the honor role, wouldn't that suggest it was practically a complete waste of time, an utter abject failure?
"You can go home now. We aren't really interested in running the cult business anymore.."
Any university that produced a 99 percent unemployability rate among graduates wouldn't last very long.
Where do these "unemployed" go?
We have how many "trained" administrators hitting the beat for a job.. some opened their own shop, promising WORSE results than twi.
Some are damaged to the extent they'll never fit in with an organization with different beliefs.
Some people justify all of the experience with "well, they can teach the bible in a home fellowship, or something like that. see, the *word* can live.."
The thing is, training "leaders" can mean a lot of things... it can mean leaders within the structure of twi, or leaders out in the worldly businesses, it can mean leaders of fellowships. I think twi clearly bent the meaning whichever way the wind was blowing for them at the time.
That there would be differences in application from one year to the next, and differences in understanding from one person to the next fits exactly with what I've come to know as twi-doctrine-and-practice.
In other words, if I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are saying when it came to "practical" matters, there were plain old no standards, at all.
Looks like he was right, maybe you did not get it yet,maybe you still don't. It appears that from the start they were interested in training leaders who would work for the ministry ,to lead in the field, to know the ministry . I suppose they wanted them to learn all that so that they could just go do their own thing. Yeah thats the ticket learn all about something so you can be useless upon graduation to the organization, Not likely what exactly would be the point ? the pay off for The Way in training people to be productive for someone else? It appears to me that they had a different view all along, and it was pretty clear. Well to most.......
The pamphlets also said that Corps would be given assignments "should they chose to accept them." (Or something like that.)
THAT implies that a person would go through training, graduate, and decide what assignments he or she would or could accept. THAT is not at all how it happened. A corps grad had to accept an assignment as having been handed to them by divine revelation. Some arguing would be acceptable - but resistance was futile, for the most part.
How you were treated after you declined an assignment depended on many things - but not one of them had to do with what was best for you or your family.
As I recall, for most folks, if you declined an assignment, you were considered non-corps. That of course brought you the divine calling of "Copped Out Corps."
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excathedra
i haven't read thread yet
but wanted to say who gives a sheet
thank you
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TheHighWay
We love you, Excie!!!
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brideofjc
Young and dumb is the right label! As for the interview with the Lord, DARN! I had everything counted! But after learning the TRUTH, all I'm afraid I would have heard at that point in my life was, "Depart from me, I never knew you!"
Degrees? Did somebody say degrees? Uh-huh!
Guess what Ham, you don't need to be in TWI post or current to hear that one. Well meaning pastors and church goers have already told me that one and said things such as "What do you have to pay all of that money for to learn about the bible, when all you ever had to do was just open the bible and the knowledge just falls out for you to pick up in such rich handfuls. Some of the pastors were jealous that I knew more than them, me thinks.
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skyrider
Another change...........around 1981 or 1982, the corps logo was changed.
The corps logo WAS a five-pointed star with an inner circle......and a 'C' (for Christ) in the core center. Apparently, the program was view to be 'christ-centered'.........with strength and ability derived from there.
The corps logo WAS CHANGED to a five-sided pentagon.......with double borders, the five gift ministries (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers) 'bordering' each side. Inside the pentagon logo were an opened-bible, a sword, and 12 oak leaves.....symbolizing spiritual learning, the sword of the spirit and strength (oak leaves). Others may describe it better, but that's what I remember.
In hindsight...........I find it amazing to see how much was shifting and changing at the converging point of wierwille stepping down.
But....like Groucho has stated, the deception and lies from the trustees were in the fabric of many corps. And now, when one steps back and puts the pieces together............the puzzle is NO LONGER puzzling.........wierwille conned us with sleight of hand.....
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skyrider
Bears repeating.................I always kept twi and God seperate.
Ever-so-subtle though.......twi was endeavoring to MESH THE TWO TOGETHER.
Cliches were a used often............"The word is the ministry and the ministry is the word."............. :blink:
Other cliches like..........."It's the word, the word and nothing but the word.".......or......"We have no friends when it comes to the word."
Yep.....no wonder EVEN TODAY there are those who postulate....."Pfal is the word and the word is pfal."
Or.......those accepted into the corps program were/are CALLED OF GOD.
I know, I know............all churches and denominations do it. But then......not all had a founding president who drank his coffee/drambuie while he taught his seminary students, sexually assaulted some female students, openly plagiarized from others, adamantly taught that the holocast was a hoax, that popes were born of the wrong seed, or a plethora of other toxic doctrines.......BUT THEN, it seems that most wierwille-defenders embrace his "pfal foundation" and NOT ALL THE OTHER STUFF.
Of course, many of those stern "defenders of wierwille's faith"..........NEVER WENT CORPS and sat thru his explosive temper-tantrums, his vicious criticisms, and all.
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Ham
and some of those who did, and want to continue his legacy seem to exhibit selective amnesia..
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GrouchoMarxJr
In hindsight, it's amazing how Wierwille crafted together the foundation of twi...The bible had been around for centuries and it was Wierwille's job to make himself the authority of it and thus the "spokesman for God"...The bible teachings themselves were nothing special...a mish mash of fundamentalist teachings stolen from Christian writers...it was the snow on the gas pumps that sealed the deal...it was the hook...it was the way he meshed together twi and "God"...and the stories that followed like the man in India and the snowstorm in Tulsa were designed to reinforce the original "snow on the gas pumps" story...
Believing Vic's bullsh *t was not like believing other things in life...He was making a claim that was singular in importance. I mean, "God talked to this guy!!!"...how do you top that one? Better yet, how did Vic look himself in the mirror after lying in God's name and watching thousands believe him?
...and the waycorps was his dreamchild...we were the sold out minions who would grovel at his feet and carry out his money making schemes...we were the flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz who carried off small children...
...I can still hear Dorothy crying, "run Toto run"...
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Ham
and to think people actually PAID their own way to do it..
it's enough to make even PT Barnum blush..
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oldiesman
The explosive temper tantrums and vicious criticisms of the teacher doesn't negate the truth in the teachings. :)
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cman
What truth are you speaking of oldies?
Start a thread on it, I haven't seen it yet.
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oldiesman
Cman,
The doctrine will stand or fall on its own irrespective of the temper tantrums of the teacher. I've been saying that over and over again yet some still don't get it.
Honestly I don't like to argue about doctrine, its not fun and don't like to go there that much ... I would say if your beliefs have drastically changed since twi, then I respectfully disagree and best we can do is try to accentuate and have agreement in what we do agree on, if anything.
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cman
Poor guesswork Oldiesman.
You haven't presented anything.
Nor do you have a clue as to what I think.
Though it's all over this site.
Your use of the word 'doctrine' is a waste of time.
Put something in it or it does not stand or fall at all.
Neither is it the purpose of doctrine to stand on it's own.
Or to fall on it's own for that matter.
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T-Bone
"truth in the teachings"…like when I heard vp say, Anyone who truly believes Jesus Christ is God is possessed.
Care to dissect that one for us?
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waysider
Do you mean doctrine like-----------
this?
"To receive anything from God, what five things MUST we know?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
That's question number 2 of Listening With A purpose
Page 1 of the PFAL syllabus.
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skyrider
Oldies........seeing how you jumped on my last sentence, I thought it better to show you the CONTEXT of several things in my post.
And, Oldies.......you say that you don't like to talk doctrine......but the corps program was taught a plethora of other toxic doctrines. Heck, even wierwille's teaching that "cancer is a devil spirit" SHOULD open a few eyes, right?......since wierwille died of cancer.
Add the conspiracy theories, add the holocaust "hoax" teachings, add the Jonestown stuff, add the documented plagiarism, add the "all nine all the time" jibberish, add the paranoia of geer and others whom wierwille allowed close to him, etc. etc...................all these dots CONNECT TO ONE BIZARRE, NARCISSTIC MAN.
When some keep bringing up pfal jargon............lots of us corps were introduced to wierwille's world as he saw it.
:blink: :blink:
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waysider
And then there is this little gem of "truth".
"Speaking in tongues daily is prerequisite to revelation."
(Page 10 of the AC syllabus.)
Really??
Kinda makes a fella wonder how all those cats in the OT ever heard anything.
Oh, Wait! They don't count 'cause they are from "another" administration.
And hey, not just "speak in tongues", but "speak in tongues daily".
Hmmmm.---- This has got me thinking, now.
Anybody know off-hand how Dr.s' phenomenal experiences, such as the gas pumps and the snow storm and God telling him He would teach like no other, etc., fit with his being led into tongues? Do you suppose he was speaking in tongues daily when those events took place?
WAIT!!!
What am I saying?
Of course he must have been.
He said himself that it's a prerequisite for revelation.
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excathedra
i think drinking heavily is a prerequisite for revelation
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waysider
Maybe the snow was really covering little pink elephants.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Question: How could you tell when Wierwille was lying?
...Answer: When his lips were moving.
How can you believe ANYTHING that man said?...He has no more credibility than Jim Jones or David Koresh.
My motto is... Wierwille said it, I don't believe it, that settles it.
There's an old drunk who wears an army coat and stands on the street corner preaching...I believe HIM more than anything Wierwille said. I think the bible tells us to beware of false teachers...Wierwille's lifestyle qualifies him for that and that puts everything he ever taught in serious question...
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WhiteDove
Looks like he was right, maybe you did not get it yet,maybe you still don't. It appears that from the start they were interested in training leaders who would work for the ministry ,to lead in the field, to know the ministry . I suppose they wanted them to learn all that so that they could just go do their own thing.
Yeah thats the ticket learn all about something so you can be useless upon graduation to the organization, Not likely what exactly would be the point ? the pay off for The Way in training people to be productive for someone else? It appears to me that they had a different view all along, and it was pretty clear. Well to most.......
We started the first Way Corps then, the fall of 1969,especially for that purpose,to prepare leaders.
This second year Corps they're terrific. There are nine of them who came in the fall of 1970 and will graduate this year in August after the Rock of Ages. Then they're ready to lead in the field. That'll be a great day. They've stood through thick and thin, They've grown, and they really understand this ministry. VPW - The Way Living in Love pg 235,236
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Ham
considering they "trimmed" about say, ninety nine percent of these "qualified" "trained" "leaders" from the honor role, wouldn't that suggest it was practically a complete waste of time, an utter abject failure?
"You can go home now. We aren't really interested in running the cult business anymore.."
Any university that produced a 99 percent unemployability rate among graduates wouldn't last very long.
Where do these "unemployed" go?
We have how many "trained" administrators hitting the beat for a job.. some opened their own shop, promising WORSE results than twi.
Some are damaged to the extent they'll never fit in with an organization with different beliefs.
Some people justify all of the experience with "well, they can teach the bible in a home fellowship, or something like that. see, the *word* can live.."
wasn't that where people STARTED, to begin with?
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TheHighWay
The thing is, training "leaders" can mean a lot of things... it can mean leaders within the structure of twi, or leaders out in the worldly businesses, it can mean leaders of fellowships. I think twi clearly bent the meaning whichever way the wind was blowing for them at the time.
That there would be differences in application from one year to the next, and differences in understanding from one person to the next fits exactly with what I've come to know as twi-doctrine-and-practice.
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Ham
In other words, if I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are saying when it came to "practical" matters, there were plain old no standards, at all.
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doojable
The pamphlets also said that Corps would be given assignments "should they chose to accept them." (Or something like that.)
THAT implies that a person would go through training, graduate, and decide what assignments he or she would or could accept. THAT is not at all how it happened. A corps grad had to accept an assignment as having been handed to them by divine revelation. Some arguing would be acceptable - but resistance was futile, for the most part.
How you were treated after you declined an assignment depended on many things - but not one of them had to do with what was best for you or your family.
As I recall, for most folks, if you declined an assignment, you were considered non-corps. That of course brought you the divine calling of "Copped Out Corps."
Can't you just feel the love?
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