...Once you know they were wrong and abusive, you simply walk away...what's to recover from? I was involved for 13 years (10th corps), I walked away and never looked back....disapointed?...sure. Disillusioned?...sure. Slightly confused?...you betcha...but so what? Once you know they were wrong and abusive, it's cut and dried. I don't mean to slight anyone...but maybe someone can explain why it's such a problem?
...Once you know they were wrong and abusive, you simply walk away...what's to recover from? I was involved for 13 years (10th corps), I walked away and never looked back....disapointed?...sure. Disillusioned?...sure. Slightly confused?...you betcha...but so what? Once you know they were wrong and abusive, it's cut and dried. I don't mean to slight anyone...but maybe someone can explain why it's such a problem?
dearest groucho,my friend, you obviously had a healthy upbringingand didn't spend much time on the motorcoachlove,ex
Edited by excathedra
The only time I was ever on the motorcoach was........hmmm, come to think of it, I was never on the motorcoach.
After reading my own post, I can see where I oversimplified the problem, as Wordwolf pointed out.
My apologies to anyone who was offended by my insensitivity. My intentions are to see people recover from their twi experience and of course I realize that we all had different experiences and deal with different things. Some folks have more challenges than others because of what happened to them...and I support them 100%.
Groucho will now stand in the corner with his nose to the wall... :(
Psychotherapists, social workers, clinical chaplains, etc., need to learn to be more EMPATHETIC with those who have the guts to disclose they've left a cult (albeit, a recent departure or one that took place 30 years ago) and not just shrug their shoulders, in a "So?" attitude because they've never heard of the cult.
It doesn't matter that they (the counselor) have never heard of the cult - it matters greatly to the former member of the cult that they're accepted in main stream culture. The best thing the counselor can do (even if they've never heard of the cult) is act like it MATTERS that this person was involved and that they left AND that they're admitting they were a part of it. It takes balls to disclose that kind of personal information - never mind any of the crap that came into their lives because they were in the cult - and the counselors need to treat it as such.
I've encountered about five different professionals in a counseling situation and ALL of them acted like it was NOTHING. No big whoop. Oh, so what. And that told me that the 13 years I spent in the cult - something that very much shaped who I am today - did not matter at all.
Chas....thank you...that is precisely what I want to know....what we want the mental health professionals to know so that they don't brush us off and are prepared for the issues we present.
Please, others chime in with their beefs on what counselors did not "hear"
Excathedra.....I would LOVE to hear your words of wisdom.
This presentation is our chance to be heard........please speak.
When I was a kid, there were a lot of people in my neighborhood who had survived traumatic experiences in WWII.
(Combat, POW, concentration camps)
Some of them were what we used to call "shell shocked".
One particular guy who lived in the house behind ours was a seemingly normal kind of guy.
He wasn't a zombie-like person or anything of the sort.
You could be having a normal conversation with him when, unexpectedly, a car would back-fire or there would be some other noise that sounded vaguely like artillery.
He would turn white as a ghost, start to sweat, and lose his focus completely.
You could just tell his heart was racing a mile a minute.
There was something in his psyche that lurked just below the surface waiting to emerge.
I think it's kinda like that for some of us, though usually not so extreme.
There's always that ticking time bomb waiting to send us into spontaneous anxiety.
(ie:The boss says something or does something that brings back an unpleasantness from TWI and anxiety is instantaneous.)
Perhaps some counselors don't pick up on it because pushing buttons is something they would inherently avoid.
Addictions ...especially cult addictions....but any addictions you can name....are insidious.....they seep into areas of life that we don't even know about...and pop up when we least expect them.
Psychotherapists, social workers, clinical chaplains, etc., need to learn to be more EMPATHETIC with those who have the guts to disclose they've left a cult (albeit, a recent departure or one that took place 30 years ago) and not just shrug their shoulders, in a "So?" attitude because they've never heard of the cult.
It doesn't matter that they (the counselor) have never heard of the cult - it matters greatly to the former member of the cult that they're accepted in main stream culture. The best thing the counselor can do (even if they've never heard of the cult) is act like it MATTERS that this person was involved and that they left AND that they're admitting they were a part of it. It takes balls to disclose that kind of personal information - never mind any of the crap that came into their lives because they were in the cult - and the counselors need to treat it as such.
I've encountered about five different professionals in a counseling situation and ALL of them acted like it was NOTHING. No big whoop. Oh, so what. And that told me that the 13 years I spent in the cult - something that very much shaped who I am today - did not matter at all.
I am so very sorry that you were made to feel this way by counselors who were SUPPOSED to be there to help you.
That is inexcuseable and you deserve so very much BETTER.
When I was a kid, there were a lot of people in my neighborhood who had survived traumatic experiences in WWII.
(Combat, POW, concentration camps)
Some of them were what we used to call "shell shocked".
One particular guy who lived in the house behind ours was a seemingly normal kind of guy.
He wasn't a zombie-like person or anything of the sort.
You could be having a normal conversation with him when, unexpectedly, a car would back-fire or there would be some other noise that sounded vaguely like artillery.
He would turn white as a ghost, start to sweat, and lose his focus completely.
You could just tell his heart was racing a mile a minute.
There was something in his psyche that lurked just below the surface waiting to emerge.
I think it's kinda like that for some of us, though usually not so extreme.
There's always that ticking time bomb waiting to send us into spontaneous anxiety.
(ie:The boss says something or does something that brings back an unpleasantness from TWI and anxiety is instantaneous.)
Perhaps some counselors don't pick up on it because pushing buttons is something they would inherently avoid.
Just a thought
I could be wrong.
After the birth of our first son, Kristopher, I was treated for severe postpartum depression and also for post-traumatic stress syndrome (you referred to it as "shell shock" in your post). PTSS can occurr also in people who are in accidents or other extremely stressful situations and their coping mechanisms basically shut down. There's more to it than that, but essential that's what happens.
Due to our purchasing a house, moving, Kristopher coming 6 weeks too early and my being shipped two hours away to a hospital with a neo-natal ICU to have him - all those thing rolled together that happened within 3 days of each other - I just overloaded on the stress. There were some other factors involved with it but those were the big ones. Coping was right out the window for a while... which is very unusual for me - I'm the type of person who likes be in full control of myself 24/7 - I was pretty Type-A before that happened... (and still am in many ways - but learned to relax a little...)
I would not be surprised if many of us don't have a form of shell shock or PTSD as it's currently called, to some degree or another. I have very strong reactions to anything any minister or teacher says that remotely resembles some of TWI's stranger teachings. Several months ago, our Sunday school watched and then discussed a video class called Secrets of the Vine by a Dr. Bruce Wilkinson. I didn't much like it until the third session where he said that churches are wrong to teach sickness and disease come from Satan, but rather it is God who makes people sick to scourge them for being unfruitful, or some such blather. This triggered powerful reactions in me to the end that I was an emotional wreck and couldn't complete the class.
Sometimes I have to hold my tongue when my grandson misbehaves.
I think involvement in a cult should bring up a few aspects that the therapist should consider when working with a client, such as:
What motivated the client to become involved in a cult? The willingness to "join" something so outside the mainstream may yield clues to the client's way of dealing with life.
When did the client become involved, and for how long? Sometimes maturation is suspended while the ability to make one's own choices and to evaluate the world for one's self has been taken away.
How deeply was the client involved? The depth of involvement may relate to the depth of loss.
In what way was the client abused by the cult? The harshness and personalization of the abuse, and how much the client internalizes the abuse, will relate to how much trauma was suffered and is still suffered.
How much of cult doctrine is still carried by the client? The client's perception of the world and of the client's own part in it may be related to cult teachings.
As in a combat situation, different personalities are affected in different ways and to different depths. Mr. Garden has always had a very strong, positive personality. He put TWI behind him, became a high school teacher, and is the treasurer of our little church. He loves the people in the church and is totally nonjudgmental. On the other hand, being somewhat more introverted and emotional to begin with, I was devastated. I actually still have problems with spiritual matters, and have a lot of questions that probably are either unanswerable or have as many answers as there are people to answer those questions.
I am very, very suspicious of anyone connected to a religious organization. It takes a long time for me to come close to connecting with another "Christian" and I am very easily put off by anything I can remotely perceive as rejection. I tend to look for evidence of exclusiveness, "cliques" within the church, elitist attitudes. I constantly feel unworthy. I wonder if I'm really saved, and even if so, will I go to hell anyway because I'm no longer associated with TWI. I am sometimes dubious of doctrines that disagree with TWI, yet I know their doctrines were frequently bogus.
Hopefully, someday this will all get sorted out. But right now, I go to church with a tight throat and a tense stomach, even though most of the people there are quite wonderful. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
see we all know (whether we admit it or not ) booze and drugs are bad things for us when abused.
we are taught from the moment we are born what is bad... even if it does get out of control and you become "addicted" your core knows and society knows it is a bad thing your involved in.
ok
now GOD???
well God is good everyone knows that we as a soicety think God is on our side cant go wrong God is bigger than us an power a source of fear God is a mystery most do not mess with I mean God is GOD!!!
twi messed with that in the cult head.. God is bigger than booze than drugs than gambling.. thna any other vice we may have..... in our minds.
and He is good god is Good always.
or He is nothing at all.
no in between.
so this mind of mixing god in with the control and problems is not something people can understand because they do not get how God was mixed in the mess and we got hurt and it is difficult to shake because it was God in it.. (suppose to be a good thing, or nothing at all depending on how you think of God)
what is the big deal? yeah i say you do it first and tell me.
allow you mind to put god in the mix of addiction..not booze or drugs God and see if it isnt just a tad more complicated to shake.
you have such a manner of speaking to my thoughts and thinking it is uncanny!!
the concept of waiting for the other shoe to drop is interesting
In twi we were taught to be attacked that "unbelievers" even christian those pesky unbelieving believers" (what the heck is THAT?) were gonna get us.
they were evil capable of harming us able to STOP GOD and the MINISTRY.
we were taught to fear people not love them.
if the "shoe" belonged to anyone other than a way believer in good standing it WILL drop on YOU and you deserve to be hurt from it because you didnt listen to the warning.
anything they say or do for the most is part and parcel of the devil satan helps and if you mix in with them to deeply without remembering twi came first welll you might turn into one yourself!
Oh NO! but true.. we were taught to fear the others in the world.
ot in the very least dismiss them as UnGodly and certainly unworthy.
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cman
disposable e-mail addresses
http://www.perturb.org/display/entry/737/
You can use one of these if you really want to be anonymous.
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cheranne
You ROCK ! Thanks for helping social workers and mental health worker to have a better insight on this.
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Twinky
Give'em that Spiritual Abuse book that is so recommended on this site. They really need to know that stuff.
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penguin
Cindy!
I tried to PM you but it won't let me send your message. Do you want to PM me with a email or a different member name?
Thanks!
Penguin
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penworks
On this subject, I highly recommend the book, Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Recovering from cult addiction?....
...Once you know they were wrong and abusive, you simply walk away...what's to recover from? I was involved for 13 years (10th corps), I walked away and never looked back....disapointed?...sure. Disillusioned?...sure. Slightly confused?...you betcha...but so what? Once you know they were wrong and abusive, it's cut and dried. I don't mean to slight anyone...but maybe someone can explain why it's such a problem?
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WordWolf
I shall try to explain.
You (like me) didn't have a traumatic twi experience, AFAIK.
For US, the problems that needed to be addressed were more doctrinal than anything else-
as well as learning that some things were were told were outright lies.
Some of the "doctrine" was in how to treat people, and how to treat leadership (who, oddly enough, ARE people),
and how to treat the Bible and other books.
That takes some time to correct.
Every once in a while, I STILL find some subject come up, and discover that vpw or someone else made up some
gonzo explanation of something, and only the "thou shalt not question vpw" unwritten policy kept it from being
corrected soon after it was introduced. After all, if it was from the greatest source of revelation from God in nearly
2 millenia, how could it be downright stupid?
So, for you and me, the "so what" includes things that happen years later (decades, now.)
For those with tougher stories, they have more fundamental things to fix- dysfunctional, learned patterns of
reacting to things and so on, that can take decades to root out.
Even when we know, intellectually, some things were wrong, to hear people use them ignorantly (as in ex-twi)
or innocently (as in, never-been-way) can trigger hostile or otherwise bad responses. Those are obvious signs
that it's more than "so what?" If this never happens to you, congratulations. It happens to lots of other people,
and ranges from odd teachings through odd practices down to "Christian leaders who break the law should be
allowed to do so if they have a Scriptural excuse....no, wait a minute..."
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excathedra
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excathedra
oh what the helli want to dedicate this to the veepster....................
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Watered Garden
Eerily reminds me of the film of PFAL '72.
Weirdly moving.
Scary.
WG
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GrouchoMarxJr
The only time I was ever on the motorcoach was........hmmm, come to think of it, I was never on the motorcoach.
After reading my own post, I can see where I oversimplified the problem, as Wordwolf pointed out.
My apologies to anyone who was offended by my insensitivity. My intentions are to see people recover from their twi experience and of course I realize that we all had different experiences and deal with different things. Some folks have more challenges than others because of what happened to them...and I support them 100%.
Groucho will now stand in the corner with his nose to the wall... :(
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ChasUFarley
Psychotherapists, social workers, clinical chaplains, etc., need to learn to be more EMPATHETIC with those who have the guts to disclose they've left a cult (albeit, a recent departure or one that took place 30 years ago) and not just shrug their shoulders, in a "So?" attitude because they've never heard of the cult.
It doesn't matter that they (the counselor) have never heard of the cult - it matters greatly to the former member of the cult that they're accepted in main stream culture. The best thing the counselor can do (even if they've never heard of the cult) is act like it MATTERS that this person was involved and that they left AND that they're admitting they were a part of it. It takes balls to disclose that kind of personal information - never mind any of the crap that came into their lives because they were in the cult - and the counselors need to treat it as such.
I've encountered about five different professionals in a counseling situation and ALL of them acted like it was NOTHING. No big whoop. Oh, so what. And that told me that the 13 years I spent in the cult - something that very much shaped who I am today - did not matter at all.
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Cindy!
Chas....thank you...that is precisely what I want to know....what we want the mental health professionals to know so that they don't brush us off and are prepared for the issues we present.
Please, others chime in with their beefs on what counselors did not "hear"
Excathedra.....I would LOVE to hear your words of wisdom.
This presentation is our chance to be heard........please speak.
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waysider
When I was a kid, there were a lot of people in my neighborhood who had survived traumatic experiences in WWII.
(Combat, POW, concentration camps)
Some of them were what we used to call "shell shocked".
One particular guy who lived in the house behind ours was a seemingly normal kind of guy.
He wasn't a zombie-like person or anything of the sort.
You could be having a normal conversation with him when, unexpectedly, a car would back-fire or there would be some other noise that sounded vaguely like artillery.
He would turn white as a ghost, start to sweat, and lose his focus completely.
You could just tell his heart was racing a mile a minute.
There was something in his psyche that lurked just below the surface waiting to emerge.
I think it's kinda like that for some of us, though usually not so extreme.
There's always that ticking time bomb waiting to send us into spontaneous anxiety.
(ie:The boss says something or does something that brings back an unpleasantness from TWI and anxiety is instantaneous.)
Perhaps some counselors don't pick up on it because pushing buttons is something they would inherently avoid.
Just a thought
I could be wrong.
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Cindy!
Wayside....I think you hit the nail on the head.
Addictions ...especially cult addictions....but any addictions you can name....are insidious.....they seep into areas of life that we don't even know about...and pop up when we least expect them.
More please.....these posts are wonderful!!!
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Cindy!
I am so very sorry that you were made to feel this way by counselors who were SUPPOSED to be there to help you.
That is inexcuseable and you deserve so very much BETTER.
Words are inadequate, Chas.
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ChasUFarley
After the birth of our first son, Kristopher, I was treated for severe postpartum depression and also for post-traumatic stress syndrome (you referred to it as "shell shock" in your post). PTSS can occurr also in people who are in accidents or other extremely stressful situations and their coping mechanisms basically shut down. There's more to it than that, but essential that's what happens.
Due to our purchasing a house, moving, Kristopher coming 6 weeks too early and my being shipped two hours away to a hospital with a neo-natal ICU to have him - all those thing rolled together that happened within 3 days of each other - I just overloaded on the stress. There were some other factors involved with it but those were the big ones. Coping was right out the window for a while... which is very unusual for me - I'm the type of person who likes be in full control of myself 24/7 - I was pretty Type-A before that happened... (and still am in many ways - but learned to relax a little...)
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Watered Garden
I would not be surprised if many of us don't have a form of shell shock or PTSD as it's currently called, to some degree or another. I have very strong reactions to anything any minister or teacher says that remotely resembles some of TWI's stranger teachings. Several months ago, our Sunday school watched and then discussed a video class called Secrets of the Vine by a Dr. Bruce Wilkinson. I didn't much like it until the third session where he said that churches are wrong to teach sickness and disease come from Satan, but rather it is God who makes people sick to scourge them for being unfruitful, or some such blather. This triggered powerful reactions in me to the end that I was an emotional wreck and couldn't complete the class.
Sometimes I have to hold my tongue when my grandson misbehaves.
I still am very upset when my house isn't clean.
There's more, but I gotta go......
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shazdancer
I think involvement in a cult should bring up a few aspects that the therapist should consider when working with a client, such as:
Go get 'em, Cindy!
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cheranne
Sometimes even 30 years after being out of TWI and being treated for PTSD and DID,and all I still wonder why I come
back here to this site GS.
Why should I care about TWI and all? well..I still worry about THE people getting sucked into the what I call Under Ice
Spiritual Hypothermia..like the motel six add..I feel here at grease spot WE LEAVE THE LIGHT ON.
It is a rough road of healing.hard work..I wouldn't even open that pandora box if you don't think you have the support
to go thru with it.
I guess it just depends on how deep a dive you took into TWI not so much the time spent,lots of people spent time and
just can shake it off and move on.
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Watered Garden
As in a combat situation, different personalities are affected in different ways and to different depths. Mr. Garden has always had a very strong, positive personality. He put TWI behind him, became a high school teacher, and is the treasurer of our little church. He loves the people in the church and is totally nonjudgmental. On the other hand, being somewhat more introverted and emotional to begin with, I was devastated. I actually still have problems with spiritual matters, and have a lot of questions that probably are either unanswerable or have as many answers as there are people to answer those questions.
I am very, very suspicious of anyone connected to a religious organization. It takes a long time for me to come close to connecting with another "Christian" and I am very easily put off by anything I can remotely perceive as rejection. I tend to look for evidence of exclusiveness, "cliques" within the church, elitist attitudes. I constantly feel unworthy. I wonder if I'm really saved, and even if so, will I go to hell anyway because I'm no longer associated with TWI. I am sometimes dubious of doctrines that disagree with TWI, yet I know their doctrines were frequently bogus.
Hopefully, someday this will all get sorted out. But right now, I go to church with a tight throat and a tense stomach, even though most of the people there are quite wonderful. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
WG
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pond
hard to explain.
the others do not understand.
why?
this is about GOD and me.
see we all know (whether we admit it or not ) booze and drugs are bad things for us when abused.
we are taught from the moment we are born what is bad... even if it does get out of control and you become "addicted" your core knows and society knows it is a bad thing your involved in.
ok
now GOD???
well God is good everyone knows that we as a soicety think God is on our side cant go wrong God is bigger than us an power a source of fear God is a mystery most do not mess with I mean God is GOD!!!
twi messed with that in the cult head.. God is bigger than booze than drugs than gambling.. thna any other vice we may have..... in our minds.
and He is good god is Good always.
or He is nothing at all.
no in between.
so this mind of mixing god in with the control and problems is not something people can understand because they do not get how God was mixed in the mess and we got hurt and it is difficult to shake because it was God in it.. (suppose to be a good thing, or nothing at all depending on how you think of God)
what is the big deal? yeah i say you do it first and tell me.
allow you mind to put god in the mix of addiction..not booze or drugs God and see if it isnt just a tad more complicated to shake.
for me it is.
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pond
Watered garden
you have such a manner of speaking to my thoughts and thinking it is uncanny!!
the concept of waiting for the other shoe to drop is interesting
In twi we were taught to be attacked that "unbelievers" even christian those pesky unbelieving believers" (what the heck is THAT?) were gonna get us.
they were evil capable of harming us able to STOP GOD and the MINISTRY.
we were taught to fear people not love them.
if the "shoe" belonged to anyone other than a way believer in good standing it WILL drop on YOU and you deserve to be hurt from it because you didnt listen to the warning.
anything they say or do for the most is part and parcel of the devil satan helps and if you mix in with them to deeply without remembering twi came first welll you might turn into one yourself!
Oh NO! but true.. we were taught to fear the others in the world.
ot in the very least dismiss them as UnGodly and certainly unworthy.
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wing
I have participated in three different denominational churches since I left TWI.
Each of them were different from the others. And ALL of them extremely different from TWI.
There remains a lot of baggage to unpack from those way daze. For all of us, I think.
And it's hard to not have it come along in any church environment. And it's too easy to still be looking
through those way eyes, and critique about whatever . . .
For what it's worth, one experience that was difficult for me (in the first of the churches that I mentioned)
came when the topic of membership was offered. I told the pastor "thanks, but no thanks". He said that
was fine, twas all up to me; come as long as I liked. So I asked him why he didn't ask me 'why?'
about not wanting to join. To my (way brain) surprise, he said "no" - that it was my business, not his. That
he'd listen, if I neeeded that; but as far as he was concerned he would be sticking his nose where it didn't
belong, so he does not ask.
This was a good situation. But it was still difficult for me too, almost catching me off guard. Why? Because in TWI
a leader would expect that info (and there'd better be a good reason too!). All that in your face, and into your
sheet, mentallity of TWI was absent in this church. For a moment, I wondered if they really cared. Eventually it occured
to me that this was a good way for them to demonstrate that they did care: to trust that people can have fair judgement on
their own.
It is a strange paradox. Does anyone really miss that overbearing micro management of their lives that occured in TWI?
Yet at the same time, if we even make it into a different church environment; have we felt ignored because that
is not the way that some other churches operate? "Hi, good to see you" might be all that we get. Unless we put some
effort in. The hardsell (even though it started soft-n-easy) of TWI is something that a cult encourages. I haven't
found a church - church yet that works that way, even though that is exactly what I first expected to find.
oh well, :) peace back at ya
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