VPW and the Snowstorm - What do you believe?

[RumRunner]

I agree. As I said, Jeffrey Dahmer only ate a FEW of the people he met. Miniscule compared to the number of people he didn't eat. That makes him a non-murderer and non-cannibal FAR more times than he was a murderer and cannibal.

Flawless Raf.

Mike - I, for one, am glad drunk sexual predator Vic is long gone.

[Mike]

But as you can see, what God taught him, and he put into written form, is not going away.

It thrives even in the most antagonistic of environments.

[RumRunner]

But as you can see, what God taught him, and he put into written form, is not going away.

It thrives even in the most antagonistic of environments.

I'm not antagonistic to you Mike - I'm just glad the predator is gone

[Raf]

I don't know why this thread reminds me of this clip (ok, yes I do)...

[Ham]

But as you can see, what God taught him, and he put into written form, is not going away.

It thrives even in the most antagonistic of environments.

to this point you have not even seen an "antagonistic" environment.. disappointed, fed up.. perhaps. But antagonistic.. no.

Don't take this wrong.. you have no clue what an antagonistic environment is.. you MIGHT see it in your lifetime, maybe not..

[Ham]

I'll say this in the nicest way I can.. you think playing mental gymnastics with a bunch of ex-culties to be some kind of "antagonistic environment" to save the "honor" of your "truth" against..

it's kinda.. what's the word.. pitiful..

try "witnessing" in downtown Beijing..

[lindyhopper]

It thrives?

Oh that is rich.

Mike, can you transfer any of these video clips to your computer and give us a look see?

Are we arguing that VPW never said this story the way it has been presented here, ever on video, or just that it wasn't in the video or tape versions of PFAL and therefore not a major "hook"?

Edited January 10, 2009 by lindyhopper

[potato]

<snip>

It's common to hear at that point, well what VP said and what was meant were two different things.

</snip>

I've found discussion about what vpw said and what was meant to be really rare around here, actually. usually it's "what he said" and "what he did" or "what he siad to the public" and "what he said to a few special people".

But as you can see, what God taught him, and he put into written form, is not going away.

It thrives even in the most antagonistic of environments.

THRIVE???? LOLOL!

that's a word I wouldn't have chosen to describe the success of vpw's writings. they're fading away, not thriving.

[waysider]

Lord have mercy.

Next thing you know, we'll be hearing from someone who insists that "Kilroy was here" is an example of classic free verse poetry describing intricate political nuances of WWII.

Edited January 10, 2009 by waysider

[Ham]

antagonistic.. you really don't have a clue..

here is a fine chinese gentleman "witnessing" to the approaching Chinese army..

may I add.. many of his "comrades" didn't have the luxury of a "prevailing" authoritarian doctrine the previous day.. the same this character was "witnessing" at the moment..

nobody knows who this guy really is.. or was..

[Ham]

the only thing I see at the end of this.. he had either a few friends, or family who felt his life was worth a little more than the statement that pool full of blood under a chinese tank would make..

[leafytwiglet]

It thrives?

Oh that is rich.

Mike, can you transfer any of these video clips to your computer and give us a look see?

Are we arguing that VPW never said this story the way it has been presented here, ever on video, or just that it wasn't in the video or tape versions of PFAL and therefore not a major "hook"?

The thread started as a do you believe the snowstorm story.

it morphed to did VPW say it in PFAL or as mike said did you " freaking"(This is my word and it only is there to reflect my embarrassment at getting it mixed up supposedly even though I still hear it in my head in conjunction with my PFAL class) mix up what you heard at different teachings in your head.

Which then morphed in to the inevitable(just like Hitler showing up out in other forums) could VPW actually receive God's word like a profit when we know ALL of us that he was not just flawed but really didn't teach his own words but plagiarized wholesale others teachings and flagrantly sinned against God's children besides being a raging Alcoholic.

All the while bits of Bible being bandied about when in reality the few men of God I have looked up so far when they did sin against God and hurt God's Children repented to God. so Since I see no repentance from VPW I am still not so sure he got any kind of revelation from God but then I probably know the least bible verses here and even less of the PFAL class.

This in no way is meant as a treatise as to weither I had a good or bad time in TWI or what I think of the PFAL class... I am still trying to sort it all out..

Edited January 10, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[leafytwiglet]

Oh Yeah and as near as I can tell from my limited look they were anything but receiving word of wisdom from God when they were out of Fellowship or sinning against God.

Again just from a quick look see nothing in depth

Edited for spelling errors

Edited January 10, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[Oakspear]

Well it does seem to be a popular opinion here at least when someone documents a fact that doesn't fit with the mission or invalidates a claim. It's common to hear at that point, well what VP said and what was meant were two different things. I guess now that it does not fit with the mission here you want us to believe the opposite. By GreaseSpot standards yes when he said WE he must have meant ME, cause we all know what he said and what he meant or did were never the same. Or does that only apply when it works in your favor?

The existance of posts claiming that Wierwille did not say what he meant do not at all invalidate the claims in other posts that Wierwille did mean what he said. The claim should be evaluated based on its merits, not on whether all posts by a variety of different posters are consistant with each other.

[WhiteDove]

The existance of posts claiming that Wierwille did not say what he meant do not at all invalidate the claims in other posts that Wierwille did mean what he said. The claim should be evaluated based on its merits, not on whether all posts by a variety of different posters are consistant with each other.

And the same would be true for the vice versa Yes ? But it never seems to work that way. When faced with hard evidence and no explanation for it ,the weasel is to bring up the tired old argument that he said and meant different things. That supposedly dismisses why the print des not line up with the claim. If that in fact is true as suggested then establishing a pattern of behavior is certainly credible in evaluating any words that individual says. If someone is consistently misleading as some assert then it is logical to consider that in evaluating ones words. It's common place to build a profile based on past performance. Given the general argument that what was said was not what was meant, or done, it certainly should not be surprising in the case of we and us. Unless of course one would like to recant the former argument leaving no pattern to consider.

Edited January 10, 2009 by WhiteDove

[johnj]

Wierwille said:

"...there was a blizzard in Tulsa. All the planes were grounded. So I couldn't get a plane. I tried the trains-- they were all snowed in. The buses-- same thing. The city was snowbound. I just couldn't get out!" (E Whiteside, The Way-- Living in Love, p. 198)

However, the Tulsa tribune notes that the temperature that day was 60 degrees, and the overnight low never even got down to freezing. December 1951 records in Climatological Data for Oklahoma show only 5/10 inch of snow on Dec. 8 and 6/10 inch on Dec. 20. Neither date concurs with Wierwille's visit, and neither records anything near a blizzard which could stop all buses and trains.

You can see a copy of the Tulsa Tribune at www.abouttheway.org

go to photo gallery, then click on Tulsa

VP's bald-faced, self-aggrandizing lie. One of many.

[johnj]

Ways Corps graduate Barrie Hill later confirmed that the rally was the Divine Healing Convention, December 11-13, 1951, sponsored by The Voice of Healing magazine, and that Wierwille stayed at the Hotel Tulsa (which was razed in 1973). Hill notes that the weather bureau, newspapers and airport do not record a snowstorm at that time.

When she mentioned this to Wierwille, he dismissed these facts by suggesting that the blizzard was "a phenomenon" or that he "spoke with angels" when he called the airport, train station and bus station (Wierwille conveniently blames holy angels for lying to him about the weather rather than admit his fabrication!). It seems amazing that Hill had concrete evidence that VP lied, but still fawned over him in the Oct-Nov 1982 Heart magazine article she wrote about the incident.

Wierwille's wife Dorothea recalled that week in a 1996 book of her memories of the Wierwilles' early years called Born Again to Serve. She also was in Tulsa that week and contradicts V.P. Wierwille. She never even implies that the planes, trains and buses were snowbound by a blizzard. The closest thing is when she suggests that there was snow in Chicago (700 miles from Tulsa and hundreds from New Knoxville!) and "sleet forecast in Tulsa by Thursday." (Born Again to Serve, p. 79) This means that there was never any snow on the ground or in the air when the Wierwilles were in Tulsa. Perhaps she couldn't bring herself to make a bald-faced lie as V.P. did. By this, she perhaps implies that V. P. Was lying about the alleged blizzard.

[dmiller]

Live link:

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/quz_itulsasnow.htm

[WordWolf]

John's referring to the OTHER "snowstorm."

vpw has referred to 2 days as most significant to him,

and has claimed miraculous snowstorms for both of them.

1) the supposed date of the alleged 1942 promise

2) the date he met JE Stiles and spoke in tongues.

THIS is the one John's talking about.

Supposedly, it was a physical blizzard that halted all traffic

out of the city, by bus, train and plane.

On the actual date in question, there wasn't even a snowflake

falling from the sky, and no significant snowfall on the ground.

George, however, mentions a THIRD alleged snowstorm.

Well, I've mentioned this before, but I think it bears repeating.

"Snowstorms" were a frequent fallback position for Mr. Wierwille. In 1975 he and Howard were supposed to be in Seattle for a branch meeting or somesuch, and most everyone in the state had converged on a party room at some apartment house in the 'burbs of Seattle for a chance to get a glimpse of His Holiness.

We were all packed into the somewhat smallish room breathlessly awaiting the appearing of God's Chosen One, when we got an announcement from the Limb Leader (J#e Co#lt@r) that His Emminence, with great regret, had called from Reno and informed us all that he and Howard were snowed in and NO planes were flying out at all. Gosh, He sure wanted to be there with us, but, sometimes these things happen. (A few lines from PFAL about "believing" and such like flipped through my mind, but HEY!, this was TMOGFODAT, and you know how much the DEVIL was trying to thwart His efforts!)

Anyway, the Blessed DOCTOR did a little teaching over the phone, and we paid our respects and homage to His Greatness, and the meeting sorta petered out.

Well, the next day a somewhat more cynical member of the congregation called up the airlines to see if there really weren't any flights out. Lo and behold, NONE of the airlines had canceled ANY flights due to ANY sort of snowstorm in Reno. When this news was communicated to the limb, rather than thanks for the investigative work, the lowly believer got his azz handed to him (Can't ya just FEEL the LOVE?).

I've since heard of at least two other similar incidents from other ex-Wayfers, and read of one or two others in posts here or on WayDale. It seems like it was just a stock excuse that our Father-in-the-WURD utilized, maybe when he had a bad case of the Brown-Bottle Flu or somesuch.

I wonder if the Missus still believed them?

I remember that night because I was in Reno. Two other believers and I had driven up from Oakland that afternoon. It was indeed snowing. I spent most of the night driving home over Sierras in it, went to work the next morning after two hours sleep and damn near destroyed a $2000 computer because of my fatigue.

I don't doubt that Howard just looked out the window and said, "Nothin's fly'n tonight, let's stay here". OTOH, pilots fly in snowstorms all the time, particularly Alaska Airlines which would have been the best ride from Reno to Seattle.

[Mark Clarke]

I wouldn't have a problem with either snowstorm being a vision or something else that wouldn't have been recorded by the weather service, if it were genuinely of God. He can work things in miraculous ways that might defy explanation, as long as they accomplished what He wanted them to. But Jesus warned us of false prophets with false signs and wonders. The key to recognizing and avoiding them, according to the Lord - "You shall know them by their fruits." Yes, nobody's perfect and the men who wrote parts of the Bible sinned. The difference is that when they were confronted with their sins they repented, unlike VPW. Plus we know that what they wrote as Scripture fits together and presents the message as a unified whole.

I Tim. 6:

3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

In contrast to consenting to the wholesome words of Jesus and his doctrine, VPW said that most of the words of the Lord were addressed to Israel, and not us. Verses 4 and 5 describe VP perfectly. By his fruit we know him.

[WordWolf]

Ok. Supposedly, a life-changing day, one of the 2 greatest days of vpw's life.

vpw can't seem to keep some of the most basic details straight.

And what he DOES say is often VERY interesting.

Both accounts were from tape-one ON a tape, the other in TW:LiL

and transcribed to the book.

"And so, all of this stuff began to build. And so finally, as I kept praying, I just said to the Father, I said, Father, teach me the Word - Teach me the Word, And one night, something happened, which to me is the greatest thing I don't - I see only one experience that perhaps is greater than this in the Bible, and that's the Apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Outside of that, I see nothing in the Word that equals how God revealed Himself to me and talked to me and told me as plain as day that, if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first generation, And of course at that time I thought, now that's a dandy, boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody'll listen to me, the whole church will be blessed, my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God. And I thought that was terrific - but during the process of that revelation and I can't tell it all to you because we're already closing off.

But during the process of it, I said: "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me?" Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit. And it happened to be bright sunshine like today - like it's been today and yesterday what we people refer to, I guess as Indian Summer - beautiful day. And the sun was shining brightly; it was in the Fall of the year - gorgeous! And there wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, Well, just say to the Father, Well, if - if it'll just snow - right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you, But you see I'd never had much experience with God talking to me. And this business of He saying to me, just as audibly as I'm speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me.

I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before, you know. Ah, my ears were perhaps clogged up, since that time I've heard a lot of things - from Him. But, then I said, "Lord, if this is really true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, must not have been over three seconds, and I was sitting in front of the window looking East, the sun was - ah, West. The sun was in the West and there wasn't a cloud in the sky cause I could see the whole area. I closed my eyes when God said to me that He would teach me the Word if I'd teach it. And I said, Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow, And I opened my eyes and it was pitch - almost pitch black outside and the snow was falling so thick, I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office and I cried like a baby, because I guess it was about my time to cry, because I'd grown up but didn't know the Word."

=========================

About 1970, documented in TW:LiL,

vpw said the following on tape:

"I was praying. And I told Father outright that He could have the whole thing, unless

there were real genuine answers that I wouldn't ever have to back up on.

And that's when He spoke to me audibly, just like I'm talking to you now. He said He

would teach me the Word as it had not been known since the first century if I would

teach it to others.

Well, I nearly flew off my chair. I couldn't believe that God would talk to me."

"Well, on the day God spoke to me, I couldn't believe it. But then I

came to the point by the next day where I said to myself-maybe it's true. So the next

day I talked to God again. I said, 'Lord, if it's really true what you said to me

yesterday, if that was really you talking to me, you've got to give me a sign so that

I can really know, so that I can believe.'

The sky was crystal blue and clear. Not a cloud in sight. It was a beautiful early

autumn day. I said 'If that was really you, and you meant what you said, give me a

sign. Let me see it snow.' My eyes were tightly shut as I prayed. And then I

opened them.

The sky was so white and thick with snow, I couldn't see the tanks at the filling

station on the corner not 75 feet away." Doctor relates this phenomenon in a joyous

voice. "

=======================

He was addressing God one way, then another.

His response was one thing, then another.

His skeptical response was immediate, then it was the next day.

The "snow" was a BLACK snow, then it was a white-out.

I expect a man to have difficulty remembering what he ate for lunch

a year ago, but if he supposedly had a life-changing experience,

he should remember it in great detail.

One may get a little fuzzy on details over decades. However, one will do so

CONSISTENTLY, that is, the vagueness will be consistent.

People don't go from "the sky at that moment was completely BLACK"

to "the sky at that moment was completely WHITE"

because it's impossible to confuse the two.

It's beyond any REASONABLE doubt that this was a STORY that he didn't

keep straight. Nor did he need to-he fooled people ALL THROUGH HIS

LIFETIME with this story, even getting the details confused.

[WordWolf]

Could God make it snow for any of us?

I believe all the Christians here will say "yes".

(I'm supposing that you mean the "snow on the pumps".

The Tulsa snow job was confirmed to be a untruth in great detail.)

There's several sub-issues here. Was this supposedly REAL snow, or a VISION of snow?

All indications SEEM to be that it's supposed to be REAL snow.

If it WAS, then it arrived in exactly ONE spot, with some of it instantly on the

ground, and some of it heavy in the air. It then VANISHED.

Could God do that? Well, yes. Whether you think God would go thru all that trouble

when a VISION would work as well is a matter of opinion.

If it was a VISION, then this goes back to the original question-

which it would anyway. The supposed snow was to confirm that God would teach

vpw God's Word like it had not been known since the 1st century, if vpw would teach

it to others.

The teachings and practices vpw taught and instituted bear NO resemblance to the

1st century church.

They decentralized authority-he concentrated it in one person-himself.

They spread out the money where there was need-vpw concentrated it at hq, where it

STAYED.

Their leaders led austere lives, Paul working a secular job at one point.

vpw piled up luxuries for himself of nearly every kind.

Their emphasis was on spiritual basics. vpw emphasized intellectual study.

They had signs, miracles and wonders as day-to-day events. vpw-well, I suppose he

saw a FEW here and there.

Furthermore,

"The Word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century" is a FICTION. In the 1st

century, they had the Old Testament (the Torah), and a few of the letters where they

could be found. It sounds like such a neat slogan, though.....

Finally, although vpw taught others, EVERYTHING he taught (95% at the bare minimum)

can be traced DIRECTLY to the work of ANOTHER Christian which was ALREADY in effect

at the time. pfal was an cut-and-paste of the work (primarily) BG Leonard-

whose class vpw copied over word-for-word originally, and thus it was known to all

students of BG Leonard before vpw came around-

(secondarily) EW Bullinger-whose books had been around for perhaps half-a-century

before vpw heard of him, thus it was known to all his readers-

(tertially) JE Stiles-whose work and book on the holy spirit were ALSO in effect

long before, and whose book "Gifts of the Holy Spirit" was copied over almost

word-for-word into the 1st edition of the White Book.

Thus, the only things that had not "been known" before vpw ripped off the works of

others was a handful of names-"manifestation","administration"-if those weren't a

direct ripoff of someone else as well. Thus, the entire 1942 promise completely

failed to come to pass. vpw taught others, but at no point did he teach them

"God's Word as it has not been known since the 1st century" (for all the reasons I

just gave.) Since God does not fail His promises, the logical conclusion is that this

was NOT a promise of God. According to Scripture, if a man claims to speak in the

name of the LORD and what he says does NOT come to pass, then he is a FALSE PROPHET.

The only question then remaining is:

Did vpw invent this 1942 promise?

or did vpw receive a vision from a source other than the True God?

The possibility of him actually receiving this as revelation from God, as you see,

is excluded based on its phrasing and its results.

Given that BG Leonard wrote something similar, vpw read his book, and, some years

later began making this promise, it is most likely that vpw intentionally made it up

based on BG Leonard's writings.

[OperaBuff]

BG Leonard

EW Bullinger

JE Stiles

VP Wierwille

BG EW JE VP

GWB JEEP V

In ancient Greek, the letter V was frequently preceded by the letters S and U, particularly when the V came at the end of a capitalized string.

Hence, we now know that the snow storm was caused by George W Bush driving his JEEP [sU]V all over Texas, which triggered a localized global warming tropospheric inversion, which (when paired with the flat Oklahoma landscape) resulted in a freak snow squall in Tulsa. The squall was visible (there's that V again!) only to male hotel guests and it was powerful enough to cause God's own angels to lie.

It's all right there in front of you, people. When are you going to WAKE UP??

[Ham]

I wonder if it was the same excuse he gave his pa for skipping school in September.

"honest pa.. there was a freak blizzard.. besides, *they* told me school was cancelled.."

[WhiteDove]

I've found discussion about what vpw said and what was meant to be really rare around here, actually. usually it's "what he said" and "what he did" or "what he siad to the public" and "what he said to a few special people".

THRIVE???? LOLOL!

that's a word I wouldn't have chosen to describe the success of vpw's writings. they're fading away, not thriving.

Actually I see no evidence to support fading away, but in fact to the contrary even on eBay the demand for books is high all these years later, even so much that independent book dealers have noticed the buck to be made and have joined in the sale. While the ceiling has dropped on some basic items the market is still quite high on others. That appears to be thriving.

Secondarily I'd submit that the microscopic percent here that are disappointed in the product are by no means a scale to use for what is fading or thriving. I think you will find that most offshoots where the majority of those familiar with the books are, continue in some form to use the books for reference regardless if they agree with all. or part. That accounts for several thousand people as opposed to the 100 or so who post here on a regular basis. Based on that factual evidence as opposed to personal opinion I'd submit thriving is the correct term.

P.S. Edited to say

And I'll add the demand for the books is at a point (due to supply not being available or inflated) that a black market disk with them all scanned in on PDF files has surfaced in recent years for new students to use.

Edited January 10, 2009 by WhiteDove