They're normal procedure is to blame the individual or husband -- allowing fear in their life, letting the adversary in. Because, of course, their doctrine could never be wrong....
When my husband, Bob North, died while we were in TWI, there was blame piled on me, sure. Blame piled on Bob, of course, for dying and accusations as to what we, surely, did to F+ck up the alignment in our marriage, failed to follow "the word" or leaderships instruction on marriage.
Bob Moynihan had a meeting with at least the immediate area coordinators, maybe every one, I wasn't invited. This was to hold the now dead man up as an example of "see? we told you what happens".
Then Moynihan manipulated family; our immediate family, my parents and sibling snd my husband's sibling, twisted everything he could get his hands on, using unbelief and failure as "what we've tried to tell you all along and do you see why now?"
My concern was this dead man's children, I still marvel at how not one of them (Moynihan or others) asked "how are the girls". Not one. And when my heathen parents and gay brother arrived for the service, they were not allowed to attend. I still am amazed how no one, not ONE SINGLE person did a thing to go against this action.
It's been 12 years since this went down and I still can't possibly express this enough to paint the correct picture.
I hope there is a really special place in heaven for what some deserve. I used to wish hell on them, but no, I want them in heaven cuz I want to participate in their consequences for failing to take care of families, tossing children out, accusing those living in sudden grief and mourning of being responsible in some way.
Yeah, I'm angry and yeah, it's a disaster when it happens, then when it continues to happen over and over and over.
After all that, I can't answer the 'does anyone grow old in the way international'
There were some who grew quite old. Mrs. Wierwille, Dorothy Owens, I remember a few others from hdq or there a bouts. In other parts of the state we would see older people at very large meetings but I don't know if they were "members" or some who just came along for the ride.
The elderly had no blame since everyone grows old and wears out.
This topic sucks. Your use of another person's death and obituary so casually and sarcastically is in bad taste. This was another human being, and a good person, not the organization you hate.
Is it just me, or does no one grow old in The Way?
All the promises about a "more than abundant life" -- long life, more than conquerors, etc. etc. etc.
Note: I'm starting this here to discuss the question, when is enough enough? When do you stop believing the crap The Way International is teaching? Is the untimely death of someone enough?
Also, speculation on how the "leaders" of The Way will spin this. They're normal procedure is to blame the individual or husband -- allowing fear in their life, letting the adversary in. Because, of course, their doctrine could never be wrong....
Well wishes should be done in the Memoriam thread or the Guest book linked to above.
This topic sucks. Your use of another person's death and obituary so casually and sarcastically is in bad taste. This was another human being, and a good person, not the organization you hate.
She and her husband were active members of The Way International. They were running a fellowship out of their house. They had every right to expect the benefits preached by The Way International. Instead they have this.
I think its a valid point as well. Well, maybe a HANDFUL grow old in da way.. there's rosie, the donster, and why they keep howard the duck around I have no idea. Maybe when he's old enough to forget where the skeletons are buried, he'll be put out as useless too..
but long term staffers and families. What about them? I know some who are in their late fifties, early sixties, sent out "on the field" basically to fend for themselves. Why is this? The real pathetic part of this.. some around here STILL can't see it for what it is, and still try to peddle twi's wares.
In their fifties and sixties, I think they begin to present the "household" the *significant* burden of age, sickness, and eventually having to put the right spin to their deaths.
So bub..and I KNOW you're reading.. that's the ONLY reason rosie and gang pressured you out.. with tactics which I will not outline here. They just didn't want to have the "burden" to put the right spin on it at your or loved ones funeral.. you just happened to be a nice guy, and not know where enough skeletons are hidden..
I feel for her family. I don't know any of them but hope that they get through these things o.k.
I don't really know exactly why blaming the victims happens.
Whether or not it is unfortunately someone's untimely death or some other disaster (JOB as an example) it seems there are folks who insist on blaming the victims of tragedy.
There is certainly more than just TWI who has organizationally blamed the one's who have passed away.
And also unfortunately there are those who seem to feel it necessary to blame the ill too. Even to their face at times, heck, most of us have either spoken or heard teachings that did this exact thing....sigh.
I think that if someone believes they have been immunized against these tragedies that the act of them blaming the victims falsely is much more likely. And the blame seems more likely if someone is selling a bill of goods to others that are suppose to immunize them against tragedy too. Then they have felt the need to blame victims in order to keep the money flowing in.
It's sad for the family to have lost their wife/daughter/mother, but the seemingly large number of untimely deaths sure gives the lie to all that TWI taught regarding health and the abundant life, at least in this category. It started at the top too, VP Don & Harry Wierwille all died younger than might have been expected and it seems like there's a plethora of wayfers & ex-wafrers who never made it to 60, or even 50.
Regarding how TWI leadership handled untimely death: when Fred B, who had been our Limb Coordinator before being transferred to Missouri, we were told in our fellowship what a great man o' God Fred had been and how the adversary had been gunning for him because of his great stand for God and the ministry. We were all made to feel guilty that our shortcomings and lack of believing had opened the door for this horrendous attack. On the other hand, at TWI HQ itself, Fred was posthumously ripped to shreds for his lack of believing. Everybody was to blame!
And then there was the usual " make everybody feel guiltier" idea of telling us peons who only moved around in the twigs etc and knew nothing else, that it was our fault, we contributed to the death because we weren't - witnessing enough - abundant sharing enough - praying for our leadership enough.......pick whichever one you think you want to work this time.....
I was pretty unschooled in the inner ways of twi when vp died. I asked why he died....I'm thinking people die, he's a bit young but what eventually took his life.....and I was told he just burned himself out working so hard for us.
It was many years later that I began to get an inkling of what was going on....and I had no idea that it was cancer until I saw the death certificate either here or at WayDale.
The fact that people die is not the issue. Life "happens" to everybody regardless of religious affiliation. The issue is that TWI "promises" abundance to draw in followers, and the fact that they make those claims magnifies when people do die early or live "less than abundantly"...whatever abundance means.
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
I drove by the exit for Acton last night and thought of the Panarellos. I am so sorry for their loss. How sad for those kids.
At one point there were thousands of us. . . maybe the ratio of untimely deaths is not out of keeping. Though it seems to be.
I have had 3 women pretty close to me die within the last three months. All fairly young. A woman who I was friendly with died last week of a freak septic infection thing. It has been strange. One drowned on vacation, one died of cancer within a few weeks of diagnosis, and now the infection took my neighbor and friend.
I don't know that many people.
Who knows? We did go without the best health care for a time. . . ate poor diets. . . ignored warnings. . . it might play a part in the early deaths.
It is really sad when kids lose their mum. . . parent bury their kids. . . and beloved spouses are gone.
How will they ever wake-up and come to terms with what they have been involved with now?
Funny though. . . they all usually find a church to have the services in. . . . they should step into one now and then while vertical.
Note: I'm starting this here to discuss the question, when is enough enough? When do you stop believing the crap The Way International is teaching? Is the untimely death of someone enough?
Also, speculation on how the "leaders" of The Way will spin this. They're normal procedure is to blame the individual or husband -- allowing fear in their life, letting the adversary in. Because, of course, their doctrine could never be wrong....
. . .
So, when is enough enough?
When do you call bullsht?
I think for many people twi/waybrain is as good as it gets. It will never be enough. Everyone dies just the same, so who cares. Unless someone has something better to sell. . .
And why is it that "leaders" have to be the one to spin things? to be a part of twi one has to have the ability to spin, it's all part of the game.
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
Yes.
In my 1971 syllabus, it is hand notated. In other words, it was not on the printed pages (pg. 20 & 21) but was introduced verbally during the live teaching of those pages in 1973. Not only did Wierwille say cancer is caused by a devil spirit,(ie: possession) he also said that such things as phobias, jealousy, alcoholism, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc., etc. are caused by devil spirits. Wierwille, himself, was a hardcore alcoholic, documented sexual predator and ultimate victim of terminal cancer.
Wierwille's official death certificate is here on GSC and clearly displays the cause of death as cancer.
Regarding how TWI leadership handled untimely death: when Fred B, who had been our Limb Coordinator before being transferred to Missouri, we were told in our fellowship what a great man o' God Fred had been and how the adversary had been gunning for him because of his great stand for God and the ministry. We were all made to feel guilty that our shortcomings and lack of believing had opened the door for this horrendous attack. On the other hand, at TWI HQ itself, Fred was posthumously ripped to shreds for his lack of believing. Everybody was to blame!
I remember that, Oak. I knew Fred. He died in an auto accident tragically, left a young wife behind. Martinpuke used it as a teaching incident regarding weekly schedules and carrying out what you plan. Apparantly Fred had deviated from his plan to go check out a deer hunting area on a farm close to where he was traveling. And if you don't do exactly what you planned it opens up the door for the adversary. What a frickin' joke. The whole d@mn reason for all the schedules was Rosie making okie turn one in to the directors to keep some kind of limits on his whoring around.
Who knows? We did go without the best health care for a time. . . ate poor diets. . . ignored warnings. . . it might play a part in the early deaths.
I was thinking along the same lines. Way theology was built around denying and not being aware of your own needs to agreat extent, or pushing them way way way on the back burner. There was little care for the individual or much thought or planning for the future at all that I ever experienced.
They could eat the young, energetic, overly idealistic and naive but by the time people reach middle age other real needs crowd in. Some unfortunately may die, others will just leave.
The Way is not built to grow old in. Almost any church in the country has a high percentage of old people in it mostly because they have treated people well for their entire lives. Most people will only allow themselves to be used for so long before they change things--Whether by eaarly deah or by leaving there never has been and never will be alot of old people in TWI
They could eat the young, energetic, overly idealistic and naive but by the time people reach middle age other real needs crowd in.
that's one major objection I have with the sewers camping experience. They are so young.. and the idjits are running it on the fly, just like gramps did..
and if they so fervently hold to gramps doctrine, when people start aging, it will be history repeating itself. There will be purges, confrontations.. mark and avoiding.. not because people are "ungodly".. but because they are just HUMAN. The kid actually considers the corps program and ministry to be a success, before the "bad people" came in..
somehow, I don't think it will ever come close to the success in terms of numbers of its parent.. I hope people are smarter.
that's one major objection I have with the sewers camping experience. They are so young.. and the idjits are running it on the fly, just like gramps did..
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
Yes.
In my 1971 syllabus, it is hand notated. In other words, it was not on the printed pages (pg. 20 & 21) but was introduced verbally during the live teaching of those pages in 1973. Not only did Wierwille say cancer is caused by a devil spirit,(ie: possession) he also said that such things as phobias, jealousy, alcoholism, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc., etc. are caused by devil spirits. Wierwille, himself, was a hardcore alcoholic, documented sexual predator and ultimate victim of terminal cancer.
Wierwille's official death certificate is here on GSC and clearly displays the cause of death as cancer.
Waysider, I remember it differently, see what you think. I remember him saying that cancer itself was a devil spirit. So, if you had cancer, you were possessed. I actually contracted cancer (fully recovered) and it really caused a lot of shame in my life because, I, a Corps Grad (gasp!) allowed myself to be possessed by cancer. I would say that the cancer had progressed to stage II because I denied certain symptoms. I didn't want to face the fact that I had allowed myself to be "possessed". Years later I found out VPW had died of cancer. When he died, the cause was definitely "hush, hush". He taught that people died, "when they stopped believing". So when he died prematurely, there was some "explaining to do". More like a cover-up actually. Anyway, if you and I died, it would be our lack of believing. For VPW, he was "tired of the fight". His death was blamed on the lack of believing of those around him. We, the "Household" were to blame because we didn't listen to him. What a bunch of bull. Of course, his cause of death was never mentioned.
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crystalclearblue
I've been thinking about what Shellon wrote. I'm so sorry you and your kids and family were treated like that. Loss is hard enough in itself. But to have the people closest to you blame you is unthi
Tzaia
Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.
RumRunner
Come on Bolshevik - cough up - we need some fresh dirt to dig through around here.
waysider
The Way really has no genuine answers to life's perplexing questions.
It was all just a multi-level marketing scheme, devised to sate the desires of its demented founder.
"Stuff" happens because that's how life is.
This discussion reminds me of the words to a song by the late Paul deLay---"Life is just a mystery, and nothing ever goes like you planned."
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Shellon
When my husband, Bob North, died while we were in TWI, there was blame piled on me, sure. Blame piled on Bob, of course, for dying and accusations as to what we, surely, did to F+ck up the alignment in our marriage, failed to follow "the word" or leaderships instruction on marriage.
Bob Moynihan had a meeting with at least the immediate area coordinators, maybe every one, I wasn't invited. This was to hold the now dead man up as an example of "see? we told you what happens".
Then Moynihan manipulated family; our immediate family, my parents and sibling snd my husband's sibling, twisted everything he could get his hands on, using unbelief and failure as "what we've tried to tell you all along and do you see why now?"
My concern was this dead man's children, I still marvel at how not one of them (Moynihan or others) asked "how are the girls". Not one. And when my heathen parents and gay brother arrived for the service, they were not allowed to attend. I still am amazed how no one, not ONE SINGLE person did a thing to go against this action.
It's been 12 years since this went down and I still can't possibly express this enough to paint the correct picture.
I hope there is a really special place in heaven for what some deserve. I used to wish hell on them, but no, I want them in heaven cuz I want to participate in their consequences for failing to take care of families, tossing children out, accusing those living in sudden grief and mourning of being responsible in some way.
Yeah, I'm angry and yeah, it's a disaster when it happens, then when it continues to happen over and over and over.
After all that, I can't answer the 'does anyone grow old in the way international'
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krys
There were some who grew quite old. Mrs. Wierwille, Dorothy Owens, I remember a few others from hdq or there a bouts. In other parts of the state we would see older people at very large meetings but I don't know if they were "members" or some who just came along for the ride.
The elderly had no blame since everyone grows old and wears out.
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shortfuse
This topic sucks. Your use of another person's death and obituary so casually and sarcastically is in bad taste. This was another human being, and a good person, not the organization you hate.
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GT
She and her husband were active members of The Way International. They were running a fellowship out of their house. They had every right to expect the benefits preached by The Way International. Instead they have this.
Seems like valid questions to me.
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Bluzeman
Shortfuse, I think you read too much into GT's post. I didn't see any malice towards the person who died, just an honest question about twi.
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Ham
I think its a valid point as well. Well, maybe a HANDFUL grow old in da way.. there's rosie, the donster, and why they keep howard the duck around I have no idea. Maybe when he's old enough to forget where the skeletons are buried, he'll be put out as useless too..
but long term staffers and families. What about them? I know some who are in their late fifties, early sixties, sent out "on the field" basically to fend for themselves. Why is this? The real pathetic part of this.. some around here STILL can't see it for what it is, and still try to peddle twi's wares.
In their fifties and sixties, I think they begin to present the "household" the *significant* burden of age, sickness, and eventually having to put the right spin to their deaths.
So bub..and I KNOW you're reading.. that's the ONLY reason rosie and gang pressured you out.. with tactics which I will not outline here. They just didn't want to have the "burden" to put the right spin on it at your or loved ones funeral.. you just happened to be a nice guy, and not know where enough skeletons are hidden..
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JeffSjo
I feel for her family. I don't know any of them but hope that they get through these things o.k.
I don't really know exactly why blaming the victims happens.
Whether or not it is unfortunately someone's untimely death or some other disaster (JOB as an example) it seems there are folks who insist on blaming the victims of tragedy.
There is certainly more than just TWI who has organizationally blamed the one's who have passed away.
And also unfortunately there are those who seem to feel it necessary to blame the ill too. Even to their face at times, heck, most of us have either spoken or heard teachings that did this exact thing....sigh.
I think that if someone believes they have been immunized against these tragedies that the act of them blaming the victims falsely is much more likely. And the blame seems more likely if someone is selling a bill of goods to others that are suppose to immunize them against tragedy too. Then they have felt the need to blame victims in order to keep the money flowing in.
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act2
GT,
Thanks for bringing this up. I have wanted to start a thread about it but never have.
I have the same questions. A former way person in my hometown died last month. She was 49.
There are so many more examples as evidenced in the memorium section.
Shell,
I feel for you and your girls. The Way bigwigs went to doctors but we weren't supposed to go.
Just believe God. Well, I believe God and go to the dr!!!!!!!!
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Oakspear
It's sad for the family to have lost their wife/daughter/mother, but the seemingly large number of untimely deaths sure gives the lie to all that TWI taught regarding health and the abundant life, at least in this category. It started at the top too, VP Don & Harry Wierwille all died younger than might have been expected and it seems like there's a plethora of wayfers & ex-wafrers who never made it to 60, or even 50.
Regarding how TWI leadership handled untimely death: when Fred B, who had been our Limb Coordinator before being transferred to Missouri, we were told in our fellowship what a great man o' God Fred had been and how the adversary had been gunning for him because of his great stand for God and the ministry. We were all made to feel guilty that our shortcomings and lack of believing had opened the door for this horrendous attack. On the other hand, at TWI HQ itself, Fred was posthumously ripped to shreds for his lack of believing. Everybody was to blame!
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krys
Exactly Oakspear.
And then there was the usual " make everybody feel guiltier" idea of telling us peons who only moved around in the twigs etc and knew nothing else, that it was our fault, we contributed to the death because we weren't - witnessing enough - abundant sharing enough - praying for our leadership enough.......pick whichever one you think you want to work this time.....
I was pretty unschooled in the inner ways of twi when vp died. I asked why he died....I'm thinking people die, he's a bit young but what eventually took his life.....and I was told he just burned himself out working so hard for us.
It was many years later that I began to get an inkling of what was going on....and I had no idea that it was cancer until I saw the death certificate either here or at WayDale.
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believersnonbeliever
The fact that people die is not the issue. Life "happens" to everybody regardless of religious affiliation. The issue is that TWI "promises" abundance to draw in followers, and the fact that they make those claims magnifies when people do die early or live "less than abundantly"...whatever abundance means.
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
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geisha779
I drove by the exit for Acton last night and thought of the Panarellos. I am so sorry for their loss. How sad for those kids.
At one point there were thousands of us. . . maybe the ratio of untimely deaths is not out of keeping. Though it seems to be.
I have had 3 women pretty close to me die within the last three months. All fairly young. A woman who I was friendly with died last week of a freak septic infection thing. It has been strange. One drowned on vacation, one died of cancer within a few weeks of diagnosis, and now the infection took my neighbor and friend.
I don't know that many people.
Who knows? We did go without the best health care for a time. . . ate poor diets. . . ignored warnings. . . it might play a part in the early deaths.
It is really sad when kids lose their mum. . . parent bury their kids. . . and beloved spouses are gone.
How will they ever wake-up and come to terms with what they have been involved with now?
Funny though. . . they all usually find a church to have the services in. . . . they should step into one now and then while vertical.
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Bolshevik
I think for many people twi/waybrain is as good as it gets. It will never be enough. Everyone dies just the same, so who cares. Unless someone has something better to sell. . .
And why is it that "leaders" have to be the one to spin things? to be a part of twi one has to have the ability to spin, it's all part of the game.
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waysider
Is that story about Wierwille claiming cancer was a sign on the devil true? And that he died of cancer?
Yes.
In my 1971 syllabus, it is hand notated. In other words, it was not on the printed pages (pg. 20 & 21) but was introduced verbally during the live teaching of those pages in 1973. Not only did Wierwille say cancer is caused by a devil spirit,(ie: possession) he also said that such things as phobias, jealousy, alcoholism, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc., etc. are caused by devil spirits. Wierwille, himself, was a hardcore alcoholic, documented sexual predator and ultimate victim of terminal cancer.
Wierwille's official death certificate is here on GSC and clearly displays the cause of death as cancer.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/waydale/waydale-editorials/v.p.-wierwilles-cancer-and-the-doctrinal-dilemma-that-his-illness-presented.....html
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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Tzaia
Yes. That was truly the irony of it all. People were in BIG denial about it at the time.
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chockfull
I remember that, Oak. I knew Fred. He died in an auto accident tragically, left a young wife behind. Martinpuke used it as a teaching incident regarding weekly schedules and carrying out what you plan. Apparantly Fred had deviated from his plan to go check out a deer hunting area on a farm close to where he was traveling. And if you don't do exactly what you planned it opens up the door for the adversary. What a frickin' joke. The whole d@mn reason for all the schedules was Rosie making okie turn one in to the directors to keep some kind of limits on his whoring around.
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mstar1
I was thinking along the same lines. Way theology was built around denying and not being aware of your own needs to agreat extent, or pushing them way way way on the back burner. There was little care for the individual or much thought or planning for the future at all that I ever experienced.
They could eat the young, energetic, overly idealistic and naive but by the time people reach middle age other real needs crowd in. Some unfortunately may die, others will just leave.
The Way is not built to grow old in. Almost any church in the country has a high percentage of old people in it mostly because they have treated people well for their entire lives. Most people will only allow themselves to be used for so long before they change things--Whether by eaarly deah or by leaving there never has been and never will be alot of old people in TWI
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Ham
that's one major objection I have with the sewers camping experience. They are so young.. and the idjits are running it on the fly, just like gramps did..
and if they so fervently hold to gramps doctrine, when people start aging, it will be history repeating itself. There will be purges, confrontations.. mark and avoiding.. not because people are "ungodly".. but because they are just HUMAN. The kid actually considers the corps program and ministry to be a success, before the "bad people" came in..
somehow, I don't think it will ever come close to the success in terms of numbers of its parent.. I hope people are smarter.
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Daggoo1
what is the sewers camping experience?
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Ham
look at the "abusive systems" thread. After a half a page or so it should be apparent..
It's the "way ministry, III"..
very very small, at the moment..
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Broken Arrow
[
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leafytwiglet
Here you go
Sowers Web Site
Victor Paul Weirwille, the grandson of VP has started his own program.
Built on his Grandfathers teachings and his grandfathers design.
One can only hope that VP2 is not a rerun of VP1 but it seems to be shaping up to be just that.
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Broken Arrow
Waysider, I remember it differently, see what you think. I remember him saying that cancer itself was a devil spirit. So, if you had cancer, you were possessed. I actually contracted cancer (fully recovered) and it really caused a lot of shame in my life because, I, a Corps Grad (gasp!) allowed myself to be possessed by cancer. I would say that the cancer had progressed to stage II because I denied certain symptoms. I didn't want to face the fact that I had allowed myself to be "possessed". Years later I found out VPW had died of cancer. When he died, the cause was definitely "hush, hush". He taught that people died, "when they stopped believing". So when he died prematurely, there was some "explaining to do". More like a cover-up actually. Anyway, if you and I died, it would be our lack of believing. For VPW, he was "tired of the fight". His death was blamed on the lack of believing of those around him. We, the "Household" were to blame because we didn't listen to him. What a bunch of bull. Of course, his cause of death was never mentioned.
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