Hi and welcome to GSC beanaboos. I taught children's fellowship off and on until we left in 1987. We did it so our 3 children wouldn't have to sit in adult fellowships (and we wouldn't either). We used *some* TWI materials, but we probably did as much with stuff bought from the local Christian bookstore as anything. We tried to hold children's fellowship during adult fellowship. I do think we occasionally had children's fellowships on Saturday morning, but I really didn't like doing it that way. My reason was because of not having any time to do other stuff I considered just as important. I was kinda in a minority with that thinking. Eventually we quit taking our kids or involving them because of some of the stuff we saw happening. I have always believed in my children's right to make informed choices, especially involving spiritual matters, so I encouraged them to go about it their own way. Based on feedback from them, they are grateful for allowing them to make their own decisions in that area.
There are a lot of people who left around the time your parents left. Some people moved to offshoots. Some people formed their own groups. Some people moved to regular churches. Some became agnostic or atheist. Many of us are aware we were part of a cult, while fewer of us are aware of how permeated our thoughts were with TWI doctrine. Some, like your parents, can't see it is a cult. Some can't see that every offshoot is a cult - or one in the making.
Hello there, I am new to this forum and after lurking and searching for awhile I have yet to see anyone discuess this topic.
I was a child who was raised in The Way from around 1981 till about 1988, I am still unsure why my parents stopped holding twig every Fri. night (my father was a twig coordinator) they still believe in the WAYS beliefs, have every book that was ever published up till 1988 and every teaching take up till about 1990 I would say.
Well, judging from the timing, the reason is obvious in hindsight- many of us were there/then and left
at the same time.
The short answers were that vpw ran a VERY successful con using the work of other Christians and claiming
he had a unique connection to God and that's where all the teachings came from.
vpw died in 1985. A few years earlier, vpw decided all by himself to appoint l craig martindale as his successor
(a lot of people recommended a lot of other people.) When asked about his decision, he said it was because
lcm had always done whatever he said without questioning it. (vpw HIGHLY valued blind obedience, and the 2
men most likely to jump off a cliff at his command were the men he put in charge- lcm at HQ, and chris geer
at Gartmore, Scotland.)
Shortly after lcm was put in charge, he began messing things up. lcm grew up in twi and only knew what he
learned from vpw. So, he lacked experience and broadness of practice that would have been vital in his
position. So, with lcm running the bus into the ditch regularly, people saw there were things wrong-
and supposedly vpw the perfect selected lcm.
Then vpw died and the illusion of The Great And Powerful Oz faded for many people.
Furthermore, shortly before he died, vpw visited cg at Gartmore and supposedly condemned all the leadership
except for cg. ("The Passing of the Patriarch" is posted on this website- the 40-page letter cg wrote which
he claims vpw said to him.)
Then lcm went into "a fog" for about 2 years, while his inability to fill the office he was in caught up
with him. He later decided (at the end of "the fog years") that what was missing was blind obedience
like people had given vpw (at vpw's clever design.) So, when different people tried to reason with him
in different ways, he fired them. So, in late 1988 and early 1989, 4/5 of all the twi leadership were fired,
including virtually all the "top" ministry people. (With very few exceptions, they turned around and
made their OWN organizations which demanded loyalty and insisted THEY had The Truth.)
The entire research dept walked off at this time.
So, 4/5 of the membership of twi walked off at that time. lcm made that a LOT easier by firing all the staff
at the same time, ensuring they were still in contact with each other and able to function as "a ministry"
pretty much like they always did- once they replaced any property belonging to twi (cars, houses, equipment.)
A lot of people stayed connected- but if your local leaders all decided to bow their knee to the image of lcm
(figuratively, he didn't make a statue of HIMSELF) and you did not, then you were isolated where you were,
especially if the nearest local fellowships did the same. (Nowadays we have the internet and this would not
be as much of an issue.)
So, that's probably why they just STOPPED in 1990.
When something goes wrong in my life my mother will tell me "Remember your a believer and all you have to do is speak in tongues and God will give you the answer, you just need to listen".
So that's a very breif run down, my mother ran the Sat. morning Childrens Fellowship in our home, where myself and my four brothers were to be the "model children" we needed to know all the books of the bible, and obey the one main scripture from the bible which was Ephesians 6:1, that was drilled into our heads from as long as I could remember.
My mother had a book, that she actually passed on to me and I still have. Its a red book with gold writting on the front called Teaching Gods Word. It has lesson plans and little craft ideas for coordinators to do with the children. There was also a monthly booklet like thing that was given to all the children, it was yellow and I cant remember the name of it, but inside were songs, coloring pages and short teachings. My mother still has all of them .
I have tried to explain to them that the Way is known as a "cult" but again they wont listen. They are not in active contact with anyone but still carry on the beliefs and will "witness" to pretty much anyone who will stand still.
Did anyone else attend, teach or hear of childrens fellowshp?
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and all your comments. I'm glad to see that there are others out there who did childrens fellowship. Its funny because kids were forbidden from the adult "twig", if we ever so much as showed out face we better have been bleeding out the eyes.
It is amazing how quickly everything had seemed to crumble in the late 80's. Maybe because my parents got out when they did is why they still hold the doctrine of VPW and beleive everything still to this day.
I unfortuately got a very sour taste of religion in my mouth, and still to this day have yet to find my way back s to speak. I think I decided to reach out and research the way and how it affected people is because I want my children to have faith and since I have such a warped concept of it I want to see how others handled it and how they were able to reconnect with God.
I did Childrens Fellowship alot during my 16 years hanging out there. I liked hanging with the kids more than the adults but as a mom of one of the kids in the fellowship, I wanted to have control and observance, as much as possible, what they taught her and how it was taught, so I volunteered to do any and all kids stuff as much as possible.
I still have that red book as well as the children's sing along the way book.
Welcome to GSC, Beanaboos! There are lots of topics here that we hope you find helpful.
As far as Childrens Fellowship goes, I helped coordinate some of the fellowships for children during the 1970s and early 1980s in California and Florida and at Childrens Camp during Corps week. I remember some of it was fun but the doctrine, as many of us feel now, was dogmatic and repressive, to say the least.
VPW used to say when a child was born to TWI parents, "That is how we get 'em into the Way ministry!" He said this on the video "Changed" made in 1977, and although he laughed and the audience laughed, he meant it, believe me. IMO, that thinking is terrible (again an understatement). For many, children were a means to TWI's end: getting the Word (VP's interpretation of the Bible) over the world. Obviously, that is a repulsive idea to those of us who finally woke up and left and took our kids with us!
I left TWI in 1987 and can tell you that Wordwolf's run-down of events is very good. There are some other topics about childrens fellowship here that I think you can find when you use the Search feature. Also, the Writing Machine web site that cheranne mentioned is very good, too!
I don't recall ever seeing the video, "Changed" and, yet, I distinctly remember VPW saying, "That's how we get 'em into The Way Ministry" almost word-for-word, including the sly little chuckle. I wish I could remember where, other than "Changed" I heard him say this. Then again, maybe I actually saw the video and don't remember.
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and all your comments. I'm glad to see that there are others out there who did childrens fellowship. Its funny because kids were forbidden from the adult "twig", if we ever so much as showed out face we better have been bleeding out the eyes.
It is amazing how quickly everything had seemed to crumble in the late 80's. Maybe because my parents got out when they did is why they still hold the doctrine of VPW and beleive everything still to this day.
I unfortuately got a very sour taste of religion in my mouth, and still to this day have yet to find my way back s to speak. I think I decided to reach out and research the way and how it affected people is because I want my children to have faith and since I have such a warped concept of it I want to see how others handled it and how they were able to reconnect with God.
Yes, I taught a few children's fellowships... mostly at state meetings. Once or twice I helped herd kids at HQ's children's fellowships during big weekends but that was mostly keeping them quiet and passing out juice.
In our local area the fellowships were too small to hold individual children's fellowships, and even though there were enough small children that we could have had one during the Sunday service tape meeting, by then (the 90s) it was considered a waste of the adults' time. "Dr. Wierwille taught the Word in simple terms and so should we... then even small children should be able to get something from it" we were told.
Obviously it was just another tactic to control the adults... musn't have them in a separate room not hearing what everyone else is hearing!! So my poor child had to sit still, with no toys, no snuggles, and no snoozing through long, boring adult teachings and I was expected to smack him with a spoon if he didn't. Just makes me sick thinking about it...
And yes, I agree with you that your parents left at a time in twi's history that allowed them to hold fast to the goodness of Dr. Wierwille, and maintain a strong belief in the doctrines he taught. They could blame everything that was going wrong on those who came after, but not on the one who taught us all. I have other friends who are the same. They simply cannot (will not) listen to or believe anyone who tries to show them the truth of what was going on from the very beginning, or the final result that we were all in a full-blown CULT.
As for your spiritual journey, I wish you well. Just be true to yourself, even if it means you don't find a specific church or religion that you are comfortable with... I think God is big enough to embrace all of us who are trying to find Him, even when our path isn't very conventional.
I don't recall ever seeing the video, "Changed" and, yet, I distinctly remember VPW saying, "That's how we get 'em into The Way Ministry" almost word-for-word, including the sly little chuckle. I wish I could remember where, other than "Changed" I heard him say this. Then again, maybe I actually saw the video and don't remember.
I don't recall ever seeing the video, "Changed" and, yet, I distinctly remember VPW saying, "That's how we get 'em into The Way Ministry" almost word-for-word, including the sly little chuckle. I wish I could remember where, other than "Changed" I heard him say this. Then again, maybe I actually saw the video and don't remember.
"Changed" was filmed at PFAL 77, which VPW taught at Ball State University. Perhaps you were there...
"Changed" was filmed at PFAL 77, which VPW taught at Ball State University. Perhaps you were there...
George
Nope. I didn't go to PFAL '77. I did go to Ball State, though, with Fellow Laborers, to work on some event. Maybe a limb meeting. That would have been about the same year. Or, maybe at ROA. I just don't recall the exact situation.
beenaboos, you sound like a family person. Yeehaw!! Your mom sounds like me. Veeerrryyy involved to the max. I am sure you are thankful to her for that.
Keep that little book she gave you. If you don't now, you will treasure it one day. I can see your mom just as I saw myself back then. Teaching and loving our children. Hurray for mamas.
My youngest has never been exposed to twi. Yet, he knows Eph. 6:1 backwards. And he better. Hurray for mom. Better yet, hurray for him.
My mother had a book, that she actually passed on to me and I still have. Its a red book with gold writting on the front called Teaching Gods Word. It has lesson plans and little craft ideas for coordinators to do with the children. There was also a monthly booklet like thing that was given to all the children, it was yellow and I cant remember the name of it, but inside were songs, coloring pages and short teachings. My mother still has all of them .
. . .
Do you have the Athletes of the Spirit coloring book? Every child should, so many colors to choose from.
. . .
I have tried to explain to them that the Way is known as a "cult" but again they wont listen. They are not in active contact with anyone but still carry on the beliefs and will "witness" to pretty much anyone who will stand still.
. . .
twi is a crutch for phantom wounds. If it makes them happy, good for them.
Hi Beanaboos welcome!!! Hmm the red book must have come out after spring of 83... that is when I left and i taught Childrens' fellowship in our area for, fall of 81 and all of 82 and at that time there was no Children's fellowship materials at all.. so I made all my own and patterned my meetings like the sunday schools I grew up in we had a begining and ending prayer, sang songs and had a little teaching and a craft or game. we always met while twig was going on.. and I hated when the Limb leader wanted us to quit because our children should be out in the regular twigs.. they hated it and so did I we had a lot more fun and learned a lot more than the adults.I do know that the Childrens fellowship leaders at head quarters were working on something that was supposed to come out at some point but not sure when and that may have been the reason they stopped my fellowship. They were going to have some set guidelines from head quarters. also I was a bit of a rebel so the Limb Leader may have thought I was not teaching them TWI doctrine. Hard to say.
I agree though leaving when your parents did and not being around for when the proverbial dung hit the fan would have shielded them from all the evilness of TWI and VP.. I was like that I came to GSC and learned a lot.. IT really helped me add two and two together on a few issues that I did not understand and made sense of some stuff I saw but only had scant knowledge of. IT also helped me understand what happened to some people near and dear to my heart.
but mostly it got me to really question what TWI was and How it fit into the cult category. Leaving when they did they did not have the constraints that came for the people who stayed after. They would be like me assuming TWI was just misunderstood.
Your comments brought something to mind... does anyone else remember a book that was being written that was supposed to tell the story of Jesus as a small child? I remember someone reading us a passage and that the toddler Jesus supposedly had a carving of a camel or something and when asked where it came from he replied, "Magi give it to me." I thought it was adorable and was really looking forward to it, but it never got published.
The other thing your post made me think about was that when Craig started standing up against Chris Geer, he also started attacking those that were loyal to twi, but not necessarily to himself... he dismantled the teen stage at the ROA, and discontinued Teen Summer School because those kids had become very fond of the leaders that coordinated those events (they clearly had a ministry amongst the teens) and Craig couldn't stand it. I remember him standing at lunch and ranting about how the kids should never take precidence over the adults or some such rubbish. It was really obvious (even to my still-twi-loyal brain) that he was just plain jealous.
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Tzaia
Hi and welcome to GSC beanaboos. I taught children's fellowship off and on until we left in 1987. We did it so our 3 children wouldn't have to sit in adult fellowships (and we wouldn't either). We used *some* TWI materials, but we probably did as much with stuff bought from the local Christian bookstore as anything. We tried to hold children's fellowship during adult fellowship. I do think we occasionally had children's fellowships on Saturday morning, but I really didn't like doing it that way. My reason was because of not having any time to do other stuff I considered just as important. I was kinda in a minority with that thinking. Eventually we quit taking our kids or involving them because of some of the stuff we saw happening. I have always believed in my children's right to make informed choices, especially involving spiritual matters, so I encouraged them to go about it their own way. Based on feedback from them, they are grateful for allowing them to make their own decisions in that area.
There are a lot of people who left around the time your parents left. Some people moved to offshoots. Some people formed their own groups. Some people moved to regular churches. Some became agnostic or atheist. Many of us are aware we were part of a cult, while fewer of us are aware of how permeated our thoughts were with TWI doctrine. Some, like your parents, can't see it is a cult. Some can't see that every offshoot is a cult - or one in the making.
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WordWolf
Well, judging from the timing, the reason is obvious in hindsight- many of us were there/then and left
at the same time.
The short answers were that vpw ran a VERY successful con using the work of other Christians and claiming
he had a unique connection to God and that's where all the teachings came from.
vpw died in 1985. A few years earlier, vpw decided all by himself to appoint l craig martindale as his successor
(a lot of people recommended a lot of other people.) When asked about his decision, he said it was because
lcm had always done whatever he said without questioning it. (vpw HIGHLY valued blind obedience, and the 2
men most likely to jump off a cliff at his command were the men he put in charge- lcm at HQ, and chris geer
at Gartmore, Scotland.)
Shortly after lcm was put in charge, he began messing things up. lcm grew up in twi and only knew what he
learned from vpw. So, he lacked experience and broadness of practice that would have been vital in his
position. So, with lcm running the bus into the ditch regularly, people saw there were things wrong-
and supposedly vpw the perfect selected lcm.
Then vpw died and the illusion of The Great And Powerful Oz faded for many people.
Furthermore, shortly before he died, vpw visited cg at Gartmore and supposedly condemned all the leadership
except for cg. ("The Passing of the Patriarch" is posted on this website- the 40-page letter cg wrote which
he claims vpw said to him.)
Then lcm went into "a fog" for about 2 years, while his inability to fill the office he was in caught up
with him. He later decided (at the end of "the fog years") that what was missing was blind obedience
like people had given vpw (at vpw's clever design.) So, when different people tried to reason with him
in different ways, he fired them. So, in late 1988 and early 1989, 4/5 of all the twi leadership were fired,
including virtually all the "top" ministry people. (With very few exceptions, they turned around and
made their OWN organizations which demanded loyalty and insisted THEY had The Truth.)
The entire research dept walked off at this time.
So, 4/5 of the membership of twi walked off at that time. lcm made that a LOT easier by firing all the staff
at the same time, ensuring they were still in contact with each other and able to function as "a ministry"
pretty much like they always did- once they replaced any property belonging to twi (cars, houses, equipment.)
A lot of people stayed connected- but if your local leaders all decided to bow their knee to the image of lcm
(figuratively, he didn't make a statue of HIMSELF) and you did not, then you were isolated where you were,
especially if the nearest local fellowships did the same. (Nowadays we have the internet and this would not
be as much of an issue.)
So, that's probably why they just STOPPED in 1990.
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cheranne
Welcome Beanaboos.
You might want to check out this site (The Writing Machine) was born and raised in TWI
and has written some stuff just google The Writing Machine.
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beanaboos
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and all your comments. I'm glad to see that there are others out there who did childrens fellowship. Its funny because kids were forbidden from the adult "twig", if we ever so much as showed out face we better have been bleeding out the eyes.
It is amazing how quickly everything had seemed to crumble in the late 80's. Maybe because my parents got out when they did is why they still hold the doctrine of VPW and beleive everything still to this day.
I unfortuately got a very sour taste of religion in my mouth, and still to this day have yet to find my way back s to speak. I think I decided to reach out and research the way and how it affected people is because I want my children to have faith and since I have such a warped concept of it I want to see how others handled it and how they were able to reconnect with God.
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Shellon
I did Childrens Fellowship alot during my 16 years hanging out there. I liked hanging with the kids more than the adults but as a mom of one of the kids in the fellowship, I wanted to have control and observance, as much as possible, what they taught her and how it was taught, so I volunteered to do any and all kids stuff as much as possible.
I still have that red book as well as the children's sing along the way book.
Welcome to the greasespot beanaboos.
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penworks
Welcome to GSC, Beanaboos! There are lots of topics here that we hope you find helpful.
As far as Childrens Fellowship goes, I helped coordinate some of the fellowships for children during the 1970s and early 1980s in California and Florida and at Childrens Camp during Corps week. I remember some of it was fun but the doctrine, as many of us feel now, was dogmatic and repressive, to say the least.
VPW used to say when a child was born to TWI parents, "That is how we get 'em into the Way ministry!" He said this on the video "Changed" made in 1977, and although he laughed and the audience laughed, he meant it, believe me. IMO, that thinking is terrible (again an understatement). For many, children were a means to TWI's end: getting the Word (VP's interpretation of the Bible) over the world. Obviously, that is a repulsive idea to those of us who finally woke up and left and took our kids with us!
I left TWI in 1987 and can tell you that Wordwolf's run-down of events is very good. There are some other topics about childrens fellowship here that I think you can find when you use the Search feature. Also, the Writing Machine web site that cheranne mentioned is very good, too!
Wishing you the best!
Charlene
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waysider
I don't recall ever seeing the video, "Changed" and, yet, I distinctly remember VPW saying, "That's how we get 'em into The Way Ministry" almost word-for-word, including the sly little chuckle. I wish I could remember where, other than "Changed" I heard him say this. Then again, maybe I actually saw the video and don't remember.
Here's the link to The Writing Machine:
http://www.thewritingmachine.net/
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Ham
It's a long way home..
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TheHighWay
Welcome beanaboos,
Yes, I taught a few children's fellowships... mostly at state meetings. Once or twice I helped herd kids at HQ's children's fellowships during big weekends but that was mostly keeping them quiet and passing out juice.
In our local area the fellowships were too small to hold individual children's fellowships, and even though there were enough small children that we could have had one during the Sunday service tape meeting, by then (the 90s) it was considered a waste of the adults' time. "Dr. Wierwille taught the Word in simple terms and so should we... then even small children should be able to get something from it" we were told.
Obviously it was just another tactic to control the adults... musn't have them in a separate room not hearing what everyone else is hearing!! So my poor child had to sit still, with no toys, no snuggles, and no snoozing through long, boring adult teachings and I was expected to smack him with a spoon if he didn't. Just makes me sick thinking about it...
And yes, I agree with you that your parents left at a time in twi's history that allowed them to hold fast to the goodness of Dr. Wierwille, and maintain a strong belief in the doctrines he taught. They could blame everything that was going wrong on those who came after, but not on the one who taught us all. I have other friends who are the same. They simply cannot (will not) listen to or believe anyone who tries to show them the truth of what was going on from the very beginning, or the final result that we were all in a full-blown CULT.
As for your spiritual journey, I wish you well. Just be true to yourself, even if it means you don't find a specific church or religion that you are comfortable with... I think God is big enough to embrace all of us who are trying to find Him, even when our path isn't very conventional.
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beanaboos
Thank you for the link, I quickly took a look and will have to go back and start reading the entries, it looks very interesting and entertaining.
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GeorgeStGeorge
"Changed" was filmed at PFAL 77, which VPW taught at Ball State University. Perhaps you were there...
George
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waysider
Nope. I didn't go to PFAL '77. I did go to Ball State, though, with Fellow Laborers, to work on some event. Maybe a limb meeting. That would have been about the same year. Or, maybe at ROA. I just don't recall the exact situation.
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kimberly
beenaboos, you sound like a family person. Yeehaw!! Your mom sounds like me. Veeerrryyy involved to the max. I am sure you are thankful to her for that.
Keep that little book she gave you. If you don't now, you will treasure it one day. I can see your mom just as I saw myself back then. Teaching and loving our children. Hurray for mamas.
My youngest has never been exposed to twi. Yet, he knows Eph. 6:1 backwards. And he better. Hurray for mom. Better yet, hurray for him.
Welcome.
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Bolshevik
Do you have the Athletes of the Spirit coloring book? Every child should, so many colors to choose from.
twi is a crutch for phantom wounds. If it makes them happy, good for them.
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leafytwiglet
Hi Beanaboos welcome!!! Hmm the red book must have come out after spring of 83... that is when I left and i taught Childrens' fellowship in our area for, fall of 81 and all of 82 and at that time there was no Children's fellowship materials at all.. so I made all my own and patterned my meetings like the sunday schools I grew up in we had a begining and ending prayer, sang songs and had a little teaching and a craft or game. we always met while twig was going on.. and I hated when the Limb leader wanted us to quit because our children should be out in the regular twigs.. they hated it and so did I we had a lot more fun and learned a lot more than the adults.I do know that the Childrens fellowship leaders at head quarters were working on something that was supposed to come out at some point but not sure when and that may have been the reason they stopped my fellowship. They were going to have some set guidelines from head quarters. also I was a bit of a rebel so the Limb Leader may have thought I was not teaching them TWI doctrine. Hard to say.
I agree though leaving when your parents did and not being around for when the proverbial dung hit the fan would have shielded them from all the evilness of TWI and VP.. I was like that I came to GSC and learned a lot.. IT really helped me add two and two together on a few issues that I did not understand and made sense of some stuff I saw but only had scant knowledge of. IT also helped me understand what happened to some people near and dear to my heart.
but mostly it got me to really question what TWI was and How it fit into the cult category. Leaving when they did they did not have the constraints that came for the people who stayed after. They would be like me assuming TWI was just misunderstood.
Anyway Hugs and welcome to the Cafe!
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TheHighWay
Leafytwiglet,
Your comments brought something to mind... does anyone else remember a book that was being written that was supposed to tell the story of Jesus as a small child? I remember someone reading us a passage and that the toddler Jesus supposedly had a carving of a camel or something and when asked where it came from he replied, "Magi give it to me." I thought it was adorable and was really looking forward to it, but it never got published.
The other thing your post made me think about was that when Craig started standing up against Chris Geer, he also started attacking those that were loyal to twi, but not necessarily to himself... he dismantled the teen stage at the ROA, and discontinued Teen Summer School because those kids had become very fond of the leaders that coordinated those events (they clearly had a ministry amongst the teens) and Craig couldn't stand it. I remember him standing at lunch and ranting about how the kids should never take precidence over the adults or some such rubbish. It was really obvious (even to my still-twi-loyal brain) that he was just plain jealous.
THW
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