It has been a very rare time that I have seen a newbie trashed by everyone who responds. Mostly, a few people might get a bit gruff. Others will make suggestions on places to find more info on this marvelous site. Still others will try to "cover the back" of the new adventurer. All have their own reason for doing so. I don't find that so hard to accept.
This is pretty much the way I've seen it, too. The only newbies that get particularly stiff rebuke are those that come in swinging, to begin with. Even then, most posters try to restore a civil tone to the debate.
Nevertheless, GSC is not "all things to all men," and never will be.
Nevertheless, GSC is not "all things to all men," and never will be.
George
There ya go George, summing it up in one sentence for us.
This has been a good discussion, and can be applied to how we interact with different people.
Having said that, a person who fits the description in the very first post, does have some voice here in the blogs, and I have seen them admit they needed other outlets other than JUST what GSC has to offer anyway. That fits in well to George's "not all things to all men".
I know people who refuse to come here because it's too aggressive.
When I first came here I was appalled at the libellous comments about some of the leadership of TWI. But I read in a sort of fascinated horror and eventually it began to connect with what I had seen but couldn't comprehend or acknowledge. Eventually I realized that the comments weren't libellous but actually spoke out of a long pattern of evildoing.
But my first thought was that these people are so unthankful, so ungrateful, so.... (head in hands). Easy to see why people are put off.
Now I'm appalled by how rude some people are to newbies who still hold "TWI truth" in their hearts. It's a sort of "love bombing" in reverse. Give newbies a chance to get through the door, folks! Don't rise to the challenge to "speak the {GSC} truth" quite so aggressively.
Twinky, this is an interesting perspective.
Certainly people might view comments posted here as 'libelous'. However, with TWI's propensity for legal action, and the action they took to shut down Waydale, and the subsequent opening of Greasespot, if there were statements made here that were ACTUALLY legally libel, don't you think that TWI's leaders/lawyers would have taken some kind of action on it? I'm sure they would love to shut this place down just like they did Waydale, if they had any legal way to do so.
I'm no lawyer, but from a legal defense perspective, one of the greatest defenses to libel is truth as a defense. Expected privacy can also be a defense, however with public figures like the BOD there is not the same expectation of privacy. Actually it's interesting - many of the lies they tell about members and spread around to their people to get them to disassociate with members actually have more legal grounds to be sued on libel charges than anything I've seen posted here - because with general members there is a greater expectation of privacy.
With all that said, many times there is no way to "ease yourself into" waking up. It was a "rude awakening" for me when I realized the truth.
My perception is that sometimes people come in with the view you describe - shocked at all the 'libelous' statements. They post or respond from that perspective. Many times they reflect a naieve or deluded perspective in that. When someone contradicts them they get upset. The simple fact is that they are hearing things they don't want to hear about TWI leadership so are upset by it regardless of it being the truth or not. And they transfer that to people posting here, thinking they are "unthankful, ungrateful" etc.
So what do we do? Sugarcoat everything for "newbies" until they can handle it? I'll guarantee you if things run their course and the TWI minions turn on them, defame them, cast them out they will be ill equipped to adjust.
I personally have had enough of people deceiving me with nice words and fair speeches.
One more thing though - I think if people stick around and tell someone that they are PO'ing them that it all gets worked out.
Chockfull, you did read the whole of the para where I first mentioned "libellous," didn't you?
When I first came here I was appalled at the libellous comments about some of the leadership of TWI. But I read in a sort of fascinated horror and eventually it began to connect with what I had seen but couldn't comprehend or acknowledge. Eventually I realized that the comments weren't libellous but actually spoke out of a long pattern of evildoing.
At first sight, what I read did seem libellous.
I accepted that the comments weren't libellous when I understood better.
I've been on the receiving end of some of the ill-treatment - made it easier to understand the truth of it.
And, Chockfull... I know what libel is. I am a lawyer!
Chockfull, you did read the whole of the para where I first mentioned "libellous," didn't you?
Yep. Sure did.
At first sight, what I read did seem libellous.
I accepted that the comments weren't libellous when I understood better.
I've been on the receiving end of some of the ill-treatment - made it easier to understand the truth of it.
And, Chockfull... I know what libel is. I am a lawyer!
I commented on it because I could relate to it personally. I thought similarly initially. And went through a similar transition process. Now I believe it is a common transition process as opposed to something unique we experienced. Some of this whole thread seems to be about that. The shock portion of facing the truth.
That's good to know regarding your legal background. I'm guessing what I wrote on libel is relatively accurate - I did do a consult with an attorney on that a while ago, which was where I formed my opinions I stated on it. If I was completely off base I'm sure you'd correct me, and please do or add more if you care to.
I think TWI probably secretly enjoys the existence of GSC. It "validates" to them that they must be doing something important. "Wow, we must be really moving the word. Look at how the adversary is firing darts at us."
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here
i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out less than five
they have been trying and trying to "find their voice" -- greasespot hasn't been helpful
i cannot tell you how heartbroken that makes me
has greasespot evolved so much that people here forget ?
i have forgotten until now, and that's what prompted me to come back on here
so many of "us" (or at least "me") are years ahead of this outstanding worthwhile lovely soul
--
I like to think Excathedra that I am highly in favor of people finding their own voice. But sometimes people are not what they portray themselves to be and I just try to take this into account when I am thinking about responding to new people.
There was one poster a while back who unsoundly accused me of slander in the thread now relocated to the "Soap Opera" section in a thread that I started. And while she may have been in TWI for 30 years that alone is not enough to tell me anything about her intentions.
One of the first thing this one did was express to me how unfairly she thought Paw had treated her at her previous GSC foray. And while I can not be sure of her motives, what my own gut warned me of was that I thought this gal was capable of trying to get me to go after Paw and/or GSC for her own reasons....sigh.
Excathedra,
Is that scenario possible? Well, IMO it is very likely to be considered possible by those of us who have seen the very worst of TWI or Spliter Group manipulation.
And if this gal is the one who has got you so worked up about GSC and your place here, I think it very likely that she has already done what my gut was warning me she could do, except now she's manipulated you.
I have been openly thankful for your sharing and my desire for people to find their voice. But IMO some TWI'ers already have a voice, and it happens to be dishonest and manipulative.
JEFF
why do we think others are where we are ? and even if they don't please us (or "line up with us") in their particular place in their path, why doesn't compassion rule ?
i had actually forgotten what it's like to be out for a short time
and ALSO i did not spend 30 years IN
I try to not say anything to hurt anybody, but sometimes what folks need to hear can be tough. I just hope that I am not as big an idiot as TWI leadership was in exploring how to do that kind of thing correctly.
We all have stories to tell,we came out of a destructive cult,obviously twi would not listen to us,
As the ever tightening circle becomes tighter ,ask yourself innies is it worth it to stay in a cult who say they love god,yet do otherwise?
No wonder god cant work in the cult,Remember,freely avail?
i think this just needs to be quoted so it can be read again because it's such nice work, and i put the bolding in because in all that the way international did it did two things best and that was to bind the hands of god and remove the freedom of will.
I think TWI probably secretly enjoys the existence of GSC. It "validates" to them that they must be doing something important. "Wow, we must be really moving the word. Look at how the adversary is firing darts at us."
I'm sure they do, Waysider. TWI probably has more "fame" through the cafe than of its own account, nowadays.
Isn't this ridiculious to discuss whether or not this site meets ones needs or not? It's been made CRYSTAL clear what this site is for, what Paw's intentions are, what is and isn't tolerated here.......
over and over and over and.......Gawwwwwwwwd
If someone doesn't like this site, last I checked this was The United States Of America, thus giving us a fair amount of freedom.
The ones that bi+ch about whether or not this site does what they think it should, I suggest they go somewhere else. Why in the heck be someplace you don't want to be?
If it doesn't have the variation, the threads, the whatever it is you want, start a thread, kick in your ideas, make suggestions, put on your big girl panties, grab your sack and do something about it. Start a forum and find out what it's like, volunteer to help Paw do stuff around here, DO something constructive.
I never recall gossip and back biting getting anything accomplished.
Don't like it here, don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
Why should it be any different than real life, not happy, go do something else.
"Meet needs?" WTF?
I left the mentality of something (or someone) meeting my needs long ago. That seems like a recipe for inviting someone else's control. Sites might serve a purpose in my life - for a period of time, but never meet my needs. Perhaps the concept of should be considered suspect. Afterall, it was TWI that instilled in us the concept of something meeting our needs: a class, an advance, a program, a MOG....
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and turned it into a dusting rag, Thank you very much.
I left the mentality of something (or someone) meeting my needs long ago. That seems like a recipe for inviting someone else's control. Sites might serve a purpose in my life - for a period of time, but never meet my needs. Perhaps the concept of should be considered suspect. Afterall, it was TWI that instilled in us the concept of something meeting our needs: a class, an advance, a program, a MOG....
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and turned it into a dusting rag, Thank you very much.
Shellon was the one who brought up meeting needs. I said that I thought it would be beneficial to meet people where they are, which is different from meeting needs.
Shellon was the one who brought up meeting needs. I said that I thought it would be beneficial to meet people where they are, which is different from meeting needs.
True Tzaia. I've seen other threads talk about "meeting needs." Even if that set of words weren't strung together, the concept was alluded to early on in the thread.
BTW - I wasn't directing my post to you or anyone in particular - just the concept.
True Tzaia. I've seen other threads talk about "meeting needs." Even if that set of words weren't strung together, the concept was alluded to early on in the thread.
BTW - I wasn't directing my post to you or anyone in particular - just the concept.
I know. My point was that my thought about meeting people where they are morphed into meeting needs. I don't think we need to do anything except try to be as patient with others as we would want them to be patient with us.
In all fairness, the expression "meeting needs" has become rather commonplace in current vernacular. I do understand, though, why hearing a phrase that associates with TWI can elicit an undesirable reaction.
Does that usage of "meeting needs" make some bristle because it's a TWI phrase?
No, not really. The phrase is immaterial, as far as I'm concerned. What makes me bristle is the concept that something (or someone) is supposed to be the magic potion to fixing problems. We signed a green card because of that mentality. People make all sorts of poor choices due to that mentality - from buying a car based on the promise that it will make you sexier to following some guy who promises health and prosperity (after he gets his, of course.)
So back to the beginning of the thread...
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here
i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out less than five
they have been trying and trying to "find their voice" -- greasespot hasn't been helpful
If a person really needs to find their voice and GSC isn't helpful, well then, that person should find what helps him or her find his or her voice - GSC or not. I'd say that GSC is a place where folks can use their voices - but even a cursory reading before signing up told me that I had better go get my armor.
Is that bad? I don't think so. All it means is that I wanted to enter a community where others were used to disagreeing with each other - rather rambunctiously, I might add. BUT - the freedom they exercised in expressing themselves was ...invigorating, funny, witty, and thought-provoking all at the same time.
The moment I rely on someone or something to meet a need for me - I offer the possibility that someone or something else can control me.
I dunno...
Wanna' find your voice? Do what helps.
Wanna use your voice? Come to GSC and speak your mind, without fear of your "needs" being withheld like some ransom.
It's a lot easier for me to deal with the prospect of helping someone else than it is to say "HELP ME!"
I think it may work the same if that phrase is a bit interchangeable with "Meeting Needs."
When Wierwille's hand picked bastard children used that phrase as their excuse to f___ virtually anybody would would lift their dress or take their pants off I think it is plenty understandable why the phrase "Meeting Needs" leaves a bad taste in many of our mouths.
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here
i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out less than five
they have been trying and trying to "find their voice" -- greasespot hasn't been helpful
i cannot tell you how heartbroken that makes me
has greasespot evolved so much that people here forget ?
i have forgotten until now, and that's what prompted me to come back on here
so many of "us" (or at least "me") are years ahead of this outstanding worthwhile lovely soul
--
why do we think others are where we are ? and even if they don't please us (or "line up with us") in their particular place in their path, why doesn't compassion rule ?
i had actually forgotten what it's like to be out for a short time
and ALSO i did not spend 30 years IN
sometimes when i write things here i write so many things that what i'm trying to say gets lost in what i'm writing because i have so many things i want to say running around in my brain at the same time and i think i want to look at this very first thing said on this discussion and see some things again.
"i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out less than five"
that's a pretty big statement when i stop to think about it because that means the person was probably in for the majority of their adult lives or even all but 5 years of their adult lives. can anybody imagine what that means? if it hadn't been for school or my other parent i wouldn't have known what the outside world was like at all because tv and newspapers and unbelievers were not allowed my one parent's home or discussions or life. i knew kids that didn't go to school and were "tutored" at home and they had no clue about things like who was the president of the united states or even big bird (sesame street was full of devil spirits, does anybody remember that?). i can't imagine what it would be like for somebody to spend most of their adult lives in the way international and suddenly find themselves cut lose from that and out in the real world and not under the "umbrella of protection". it must be insane for them to function among people that don't obey leadership or jump to commands of other people or answer to others about their every minute of every day scheduling. the very idea of what to do with the suddenly found free time is probably scary as hell, but having fear surely must be proof they made a bad, bad decision, isn't it? but there's nobody there to tell them one way or the other.
"why do we think others are where we are ?"
that's a valid question for here because i felt and still feel that expectation often if i say things that don't quite "fit in" here.
"and even if they don't please us (or "line up with us") in their particular place in their path, why doesn't compassion rule ?"
well? it's a valid question. it has nothing to do with "meeting needs" and it has nothing to do with "the purpose of this site" and it has nothing to do with anything but is just a valid question in my opinion, and it is particularly valid considering that totally compassionless cult called the way international we all came from.
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pawtucket
No one likes being trashed. The trashing that goes on at other sites is going to happen. As Linda explained so well, I am going to be an object of criticism. It is an unfortunate side effect of the ty
RumRunner
I didn't know it was the charter of GSC to be helpful. I think that being helpful was from the BASIC (not WAY driven) goodness of people's own hearts. I believe - if I can still read English - the mis
excathedra
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out les
bowtwi
Thanks, Hap! - as usual!
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GeorgeStGeorge
This is pretty much the way I've seen it, too. The only newbies that get particularly stiff rebuke are those that come in swinging, to begin with. Even then, most posters try to restore a civil tone to the debate.
Nevertheless, GSC is not "all things to all men," and never will be.
George
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HAPe4me
There ya go George, summing it up in one sentence for us.
This has been a good discussion, and can be applied to how we interact with different people.
Having said that, a person who fits the description in the very first post, does have some voice here in the blogs, and I have seen them admit they needed other outlets other than JUST what GSC has to offer anyway. That fits in well to George's "not all things to all men".
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chockfull
Twinky, this is an interesting perspective.
Certainly people might view comments posted here as 'libelous'. However, with TWI's propensity for legal action, and the action they took to shut down Waydale, and the subsequent opening of Greasespot, if there were statements made here that were ACTUALLY legally libel, don't you think that TWI's leaders/lawyers would have taken some kind of action on it? I'm sure they would love to shut this place down just like they did Waydale, if they had any legal way to do so.
I'm no lawyer, but from a legal defense perspective, one of the greatest defenses to libel is truth as a defense. Expected privacy can also be a defense, however with public figures like the BOD there is not the same expectation of privacy. Actually it's interesting - many of the lies they tell about members and spread around to their people to get them to disassociate with members actually have more legal grounds to be sued on libel charges than anything I've seen posted here - because with general members there is a greater expectation of privacy.
With all that said, many times there is no way to "ease yourself into" waking up. It was a "rude awakening" for me when I realized the truth.
My perception is that sometimes people come in with the view you describe - shocked at all the 'libelous' statements. They post or respond from that perspective. Many times they reflect a naieve or deluded perspective in that. When someone contradicts them they get upset. The simple fact is that they are hearing things they don't want to hear about TWI leadership so are upset by it regardless of it being the truth or not. And they transfer that to people posting here, thinking they are "unthankful, ungrateful" etc.
So what do we do? Sugarcoat everything for "newbies" until they can handle it? I'll guarantee you if things run their course and the TWI minions turn on them, defame them, cast them out they will be ill equipped to adjust.
I personally have had enough of people deceiving me with nice words and fair speeches.
One more thing though - I think if people stick around and tell someone that they are PO'ing them that it all gets worked out.
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Twinky
Chockfull, you did read the whole of the para where I first mentioned "libellous," didn't you?
At first sight, what I read did seem libellous.
I accepted that the comments weren't libellous when I understood better.
I've been on the receiving end of some of the ill-treatment - made it easier to understand the truth of it.
And, Chockfull... I know what libel is. I am a lawyer!
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chockfull
Yep. Sure did.
I commented on it because I could relate to it personally. I thought similarly initially. And went through a similar transition process. Now I believe it is a common transition process as opposed to something unique we experienced. Some of this whole thread seems to be about that. The shock portion of facing the truth.
That's good to know regarding your legal background. I'm guessing what I wrote on libel is relatively accurate - I did do a consult with an attorney on that a while ago, which was where I formed my opinions I stated on it. If I was completely off base I'm sure you'd correct me, and please do or add more if you care to.
-cf
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waysider
I think TWI probably secretly enjoys the existence of GSC. It "validates" to them that they must be doing something important. "Wow, we must be really moving the word. Look at how the adversary is firing darts at us."
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JeffSjo
--
I like to think Excathedra that I am highly in favor of people finding their own voice. But sometimes people are not what they portray themselves to be and I just try to take this into account when I am thinking about responding to new people.
There was one poster a while back who unsoundly accused me of slander in the thread now relocated to the "Soap Opera" section in a thread that I started. And while she may have been in TWI for 30 years that alone is not enough to tell me anything about her intentions.
One of the first thing this one did was express to me how unfairly she thought Paw had treated her at her previous GSC foray. And while I can not be sure of her motives, what my own gut warned me of was that I thought this gal was capable of trying to get me to go after Paw and/or GSC for her own reasons....sigh.
Excathedra,
Is that scenario possible? Well, IMO it is very likely to be considered possible by those of us who have seen the very worst of TWI or Spliter Group manipulation.
And if this gal is the one who has got you so worked up about GSC and your place here, I think it very likely that she has already done what my gut was warning me she could do, except now she's manipulated you.
I have been openly thankful for your sharing and my desire for people to find their voice. But IMO some TWI'ers already have a voice, and it happens to be dishonest and manipulative.
JEFF
I try to not say anything to hurt anybody, but sometimes what folks need to hear can be tough. I just hope that I am not as big an idiot as TWI leadership was in exploring how to do that kind of thing correctly.
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frank123lol
We all have stories to tell,we came out of a destructive cult,obviously twi would not listen to us,
As the ever tightening circle becomes tighter ,ask yourself innies is it worth it to stay in a cult who say they love god,yet do otherwise?
No wonder god cant work in the cult,Remember,freely avail?
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brainfixed
i think this just needs to be quoted so it can be read again because it's such nice work, and i put the bolding in because in all that the way international did it did two things best and that was to bind the hands of god and remove the freedom of will.
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Twinky
I'm sure they do, Waysider. TWI probably has more "fame" through the cafe than of its own account, nowadays.
But let's face it - TWI doesn't listen, does it?
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doojable
"Meet needs?" WTF?
I left the mentality of something (or someone) meeting my needs long ago. That seems like a recipe for inviting someone else's control. Sites might serve a purpose in my life - for a period of time, but never meet my needs. Perhaps the concept of should be considered suspect. Afterall, it was TWI that instilled in us the concept of something meeting our needs: a class, an advance, a program, a MOG....
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and turned it into a dusting rag, Thank you very much.
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Tzaia
Shellon was the one who brought up meeting needs. I said that I thought it would be beneficial to meet people where they are, which is different from meeting needs.
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doojable
True Tzaia. I've seen other threads talk about "meeting needs." Even if that set of words weren't strung together, the concept was alluded to early on in the thread.
BTW - I wasn't directing my post to you or anyone in particular - just the concept.
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Tzaia
I know. My point was that my thought about meeting people where they are morphed into meeting needs. I don't think we need to do anything except try to be as patient with others as we would want them to be patient with us.
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Shellon
Does that usage of "meeting needs" make some bristle because it's a TWI phrase?
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waysider
In all fairness, the expression "meeting needs" has become rather commonplace in current vernacular. I do understand, though, why hearing a phrase that associates with TWI can elicit an undesirable reaction.
Well, I "just" wanted to "share" that.
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doojable
No, not really. The phrase is immaterial, as far as I'm concerned. What makes me bristle is the concept that something (or someone) is supposed to be the magic potion to fixing problems. We signed a green card because of that mentality. People make all sorts of poor choices due to that mentality - from buying a car based on the promise that it will make you sexier to following some guy who promises health and prosperity (after he gets his, of course.)
So back to the beginning of the thread...
If a person really needs to find their voice and GSC isn't helpful, well then, that person should find what helps him or her find his or her voice - GSC or not. I'd say that GSC is a place where folks can use their voices - but even a cursory reading before signing up told me that I had better go get my armor.
Is that bad? I don't think so. All it means is that I wanted to enter a community where others were used to disagreeing with each other - rather rambunctiously, I might add. BUT - the freedom they exercised in expressing themselves was ...invigorating, funny, witty, and thought-provoking all at the same time.
The moment I rely on someone or something to meet a need for me - I offer the possibility that someone or something else can control me.
I dunno...
Wanna' find your voice? Do what helps.
Wanna use your voice? Come to GSC and speak your mind, without fear of your "needs" being withheld like some ransom.
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JeffSjo
It's a lot easier for me to deal with the prospect of helping someone else than it is to say "HELP ME!"
I think it may work the same if that phrase is a bit interchangeable with "Meeting Needs."
When Wierwille's hand picked bastard children used that phrase as their excuse to f___ virtually anybody would would lift their dress or take their pants off I think it is plenty understandable why the phrase "Meeting Needs" leaves a bad taste in many of our mouths.
(added in editing)
But back to Twinky's point...kind of...
Is my post libelous Twinky? hehehe
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excathedra
you're all so smart with the needs and the recommendations
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TrustAndObey
but.. but.. you have to look at der heart as they can only go as far as theysa been taught..
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dmiller
That was B (as in B), and S (as in S) both when it was "first taught" as it is now.
I hear your sarcasm, but the irony of that lie is as great as "The Law Lie Of Believing".
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brainfixed
sometimes when i write things here i write so many things that what i'm trying to say gets lost in what i'm writing because i have so many things i want to say running around in my brain at the same time and i think i want to look at this very first thing said on this discussion and see some things again.
"i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out less than five"
that's a pretty big statement when i stop to think about it because that means the person was probably in for the majority of their adult lives or even all but 5 years of their adult lives. can anybody imagine what that means? if it hadn't been for school or my other parent i wouldn't have known what the outside world was like at all because tv and newspapers and unbelievers were not allowed my one parent's home or discussions or life. i knew kids that didn't go to school and were "tutored" at home and they had no clue about things like who was the president of the united states or even big bird (sesame street was full of devil spirits, does anybody remember that?). i can't imagine what it would be like for somebody to spend most of their adult lives in the way international and suddenly find themselves cut lose from that and out in the real world and not under the "umbrella of protection". it must be insane for them to function among people that don't obey leadership or jump to commands of other people or answer to others about their every minute of every day scheduling. the very idea of what to do with the suddenly found free time is probably scary as hell, but having fear surely must be proof they made a bad, bad decision, isn't it? but there's nobody there to tell them one way or the other.
"why do we think others are where we are ?"
that's a valid question for here because i felt and still feel that expectation often if i say things that don't quite "fit in" here.
"and even if they don't please us (or "line up with us") in their particular place in their path, why doesn't compassion rule ?"
well? it's a valid question. it has nothing to do with "meeting needs" and it has nothing to do with "the purpose of this site" and it has nothing to do with anything but is just a valid question in my opinion, and it is particularly valid considering that totally compassionless cult called the way international we all came from.
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JeffSjo
Really Ex cathedra? Seriously. How does this stuff work for you?
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