Ya know Waysider, I'm with you - I bet vp stole stuff from Bristol too. Makes me think of EW Kenyon's stuff also. vp "borrowed" a lot of his stuff too - I bought some of Kenyon's books at Way bookstores and some at a Christian bookstore years ago.
Imho Hunt's book is a nice little springboard to help one break out of the TWI mindset. He gets into a lot more than just the health & wealth gospel/power of believing/positive confession BS.
Anyway, good find Waysider - I didn't mean to make a detour of your thread on Bristol & the m@gic of believing.. . was just thinking maybe vp was "inspired" to give Bristol's stuff a biblical flavor by Kenyon's twisting of Scripture. Then ya got Norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, Houdini .. . man oh man, the abra cadabra plot thickens don't it!
I would imagine it was probably because of the occult connotation. Unless someone has a title trademarked, titles can be and are repeated. When I suggested early on that the "law of believing" was similar to things I had learned as part of the occult, I was told that wasn't possible. IMO, the only difference is thinking you are manipulating God to do your will instead of the cosmos.
There are several areas that TWI deviated from standard "law of attraction" "magic of believing" practices, but the biggest (IMO) was a disregard for common sense. I will never forget the big backlash a few believers had when it came to the new child restraint laws - that putting their children in restraints would somehow work against their believing. Or the woman who thought believing would cure her Type I diabetes, so she didn't take care of herself and died of a stroke at 43. Or the people who continued to smoke and "believed" that their lungs would stay clear. Or that someone's believing (or lack thereof) was causing problems in someone else's world. Then you have the guy who was blind from birth married to the woman with CP who were obviously "lacking" somewhere in the believing department despite the fact that he had a better job than most of us and a nice house (paid for in full) and car (paid for in full that sat unused because his wife was too afraid to learn how to drive).
I personally don't think that the "law of believing" was or is complete balderdash. What I do think is that it was grossly misunderstood and misapplied throughout TWI - as was grace. The greatest misapplication being the tendency to tie it to the tithe and abundant sharing, especially since it was touted for working for "saint and sinner alike".
In the original PFAL class, "the law of believing" was called "the magic of believing". Have you ever wondered why it was changed? Was it because the word "magic" is often associated with witchcraft?------or was it because the title had already been assigned, in 1948, to a book that went on to become a self-help best seller? Virtually every concept relating to Wierwille's version of "believing" is contained in this book, including visulalization, positive confession, spiritual maturity and much of what is covered in the first five chapters of "The Blue Book". In fact, this book, in my opinion, contains the basic premise from which the "lift list" was derived. In this book, the author even talks about how this knowledge is a great secret that has been hidden to the general population for thousands of years. Sound familiar? The promotion for the book even offers a "Green Card"-like list of benefits the book supposedly has to offer.
Claude Bristol's tough-minded, hard-hitting message speaks directly to You. It has yielded proven results for over fifty years and remains as fresh and focused as ever. In it Bristol teaches:
* HOW to harness the unlimited power of the subconscious mind and make your dreams come true.
* HOW to protect your thoughts and turn them into achievements.
* HOW to use "the law of suggestion" to step up your effectiveness in everything you do.
* HOW to apply the power of your imagination to overcome obstacles.
* HOW you become what you contemplate.
* WHY hard work alone will not bring success.
* HOW to bring the subconscious into practical action.
* HOW to use "the mirror technique" for releasing the forces of the subconscious.
* HOW to turn your thoughts into achievements.
* HOW belief makes things happen.
* HOW to harness the unlimited energies of your subconscious mind.
* HOW to make yourself more competent in your affairs, more influential in your dealings with others - in short, more successful in life.
I think the better question is whether "the law of believing" works or not.
I say no. The reason is WWII. The Germans and the Japanese believed, in the Wierwillian sense of the word, that they would win the war. The US, England, and Russia did not believe, again in the Wierwillian sense, that they would win. We know who won and it wasn't the "believers".
Now I don't have any complaint with prayer, positive thinking, visualization or any of that. I use it myself. But the way VPW taught it just flat doesn't work. And it give "leadership" a great tool to blame the followers when they are sick, tired or whatever.
It's occultism pure and simple. Before I was sucked into TWI I spent many years involved in new age, occult based religions. "The law of believing" surfaces, and resurfaces through these belief systems. The names the system gives it are different but the practice is the same. Focus your mind on what you want to see happen, visualize it, keep doing it until it happens. Many occult teachings involve charms, amulets, talismans and the like and many of those things are for the sole purpose of focusing the mind.
When I first learned the law of believing garbage in TWI, and with my background, I told myself that the law of believing was legitimate, godly principle that had been counterfeited by the adversary. In reality, it's occult teachings entwined into Christianity.
Furthermore, it's a self ensnaring system the way TWI practices it. If your life is going smoothly at the moment then you are a wonderful believer enjoying God's abundance and manifesting his power as more than a conqueror. If you are having any sort of chronic problem, be it illness, financial, marital, etc. (ad infinitum ad nauseum); then you need to get you believing up and the implication is that the problems are your fault.
Sure it is - but try telling that to someone who had taken more classes than you.
Yep. I knew it while I was taking the classes and no one could have told me any better....it was da werd, da werd, and nothing but da werd!
Again to be clear in my intent in the above post. It's the idea that there is a law set in place, an all powerful law that works for saint and sinner alike, that we control by our dominant thoughts and when we are careless with our dominant thoughts and slip into negative thinking that we bring calamity to ourselves.
Otherwise, focus, visualization, hard work, meditation, etc. are all valuable of their own merits.
Along with "creative," "luck," "karma," "yoga," "meditation," "can't," "won't", and "no".
It's funny, a lot of those words give power to the individual - power of choice (no, won't, can't), or an implied innate ability within oneself (creative), or an ability to control one's destiny by our actions for good or bad (kharma), or an ability to control our body/mind (yoga, meditation) etc.... While in contrast the law of believing as it is taught by twi on the surface makes it SOUND like the individual has power but is actually a method to HAVE CONTROL over individuals by how it was applied.
Basically, if you used initials, vpw would rip you off.
JE Stiles, BG Leonard, EW Kenyon, EW Bullinger....
Those of you who sat through pfal may remember him mentioning the
idea that people would thing what he was teaching was
"just v.p. talking."
Apparently, he tried to swipe the initials format, but it
didn't work for him, so he dropped it early.
He also dropped early the "w" hand signal, which supposedly
just would have stood for the WOW program.
(Don't remember it? There's a photo-with explanation- in twi's book
"the way:living in love.")
Yeah, I remember it. Sometimes people would make the "w" sign with both hands. Then, with a hand on each side of their face, form their mouths in the shape of an "o". You know, W-O-W. It looked really stupid, I was glad it never caught on. Yeah, you guys that came in later really missed out on that one!
think the better question is whether "the law of believing" works or not.
I say no. The reason is WWII. The Germans and the Japanese believed, in the Wierwillian sense of the word, that they would win the war. The US, England, and Russia did not believe, again in the Wierwillian sense, that they would win. We know who won and it wasn't the "believers".
Now I don't have any complaint with prayer, positive thinking, visualization or any of that. I use it myself. But the way VPW taught it just flat doesn't work. And it give "leadership" a great tool to blame the followers when they are sick, tired or whatever.
I happened to be up scanning the channels at 230 this morning and stopped at BookTV and listened to an interview with author Barbara Ehrenreich who has written a book entitled
BRIGHT-SIDED: HOW THE RELENTLESS PROMOTION OF POSITIVE THINKING HAS UNDERMINED AMERICA.
Although we have covered this subject many many times at GSpot, she was able to trace the development of 'positive thinking' over the last century and verbalize nearly all of the negative aspects of "positive thinking" in her 35 minute interview.
IMO, if you are interested in this subject its worth watching when you have the time.
She certainly hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head in addressing issues that have been discussed here on multiple threads. It (viewing the video) was a half hour that was very well spent.
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Rejoice
Many self-help books teach the same thing. I think the newest popular one is called "The Secret"---Oprah was touting that one recently.
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T-Bone
Ya know Waysider, I'm with you - I bet vp stole stuff from Bristol too. Makes me think of EW Kenyon's stuff also. vp "borrowed" a lot of his stuff too - I bought some of Kenyon's books at Way bookstores and some at a Christian bookstore years ago.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/E._W._Kenyon
Not long after I left TWI I came upon an interesting book by Dave Hunt - "Beyond Seduction: A return to Biblical Christianity"
http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/0890815585
Imho Hunt's book is a nice little springboard to help one break out of the TWI mindset. He gets into a lot more than just the health & wealth gospel/power of believing/positive confession BS.
Anyway, good find Waysider - I didn't mean to make a detour of your thread on Bristol & the m@gic of believing.. . was just thinking maybe vp was "inspired" to give Bristol's stuff a biblical flavor by Kenyon's twisting of Scripture. Then ya got Norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, Houdini .. . man oh man, the abra cadabra plot thickens don't it!
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Tzaia
I would imagine it was probably because of the occult connotation. Unless someone has a title trademarked, titles can be and are repeated. When I suggested early on that the "law of believing" was similar to things I had learned as part of the occult, I was told that wasn't possible. IMO, the only difference is thinking you are manipulating God to do your will instead of the cosmos.
There are several areas that TWI deviated from standard "law of attraction" "magic of believing" practices, but the biggest (IMO) was a disregard for common sense. I will never forget the big backlash a few believers had when it came to the new child restraint laws - that putting their children in restraints would somehow work against their believing. Or the woman who thought believing would cure her Type I diabetes, so she didn't take care of herself and died of a stroke at 43. Or the people who continued to smoke and "believed" that their lungs would stay clear. Or that someone's believing (or lack thereof) was causing problems in someone else's world. Then you have the guy who was blind from birth married to the woman with CP who were obviously "lacking" somewhere in the believing department despite the fact that he had a better job than most of us and a nice house (paid for in full) and car (paid for in full that sat unused because his wife was too afraid to learn how to drive).
I personally don't think that the "law of believing" was or is complete balderdash. What I do think is that it was grossly misunderstood and misapplied throughout TWI - as was grace. The greatest misapplication being the tendency to tie it to the tithe and abundant sharing, especially since it was touted for working for "saint and sinner alike".
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waysider
Doesn't it make you wonder exactly what percentage of this stuff "hadn't been taught since the first century"?
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Tzaia
No. That claim was crap.
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Broken Arrow
Would you happen to know if BG Leonard had this stuff in his class, or did VP combine Leonard's class and the "Magic of Believing"?
Maybe not. It probably wasn't taught in the 1st century either.
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Jim
I think the better question is whether "the law of believing" works or not.
I say no. The reason is WWII. The Germans and the Japanese believed, in the Wierwillian sense of the word, that they would win the war. The US, England, and Russia did not believe, again in the Wierwillian sense, that they would win. We know who won and it wasn't the "believers".
Now I don't have any complaint with prayer, positive thinking, visualization or any of that. I use it myself. But the way VPW taught it just flat doesn't work. And it give "leadership" a great tool to blame the followers when they are sick, tired or whatever.
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OldSkool
It's occultism pure and simple. Before I was sucked into TWI I spent many years involved in new age, occult based religions. "The law of believing" surfaces, and resurfaces through these belief systems. The names the system gives it are different but the practice is the same. Focus your mind on what you want to see happen, visualize it, keep doing it until it happens. Many occult teachings involve charms, amulets, talismans and the like and many of those things are for the sole purpose of focusing the mind.
When I first learned the law of believing garbage in TWI, and with my background, I told myself that the law of believing was legitimate, godly principle that had been counterfeited by the adversary. In reality, it's occult teachings entwined into Christianity.
Furthermore, it's a self ensnaring system the way TWI practices it. If your life is going smoothly at the moment then you are a wonderful believer enjoying God's abundance and manifesting his power as more than a conqueror. If you are having any sort of chronic problem, be it illness, financial, marital, etc. (ad infinitum ad nauseum); then you need to get you believing up and the implication is that the problems are your fault.
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waysider
BUMP!
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Tzaia
Sure it is - but try telling that to someone who had taken more classes than you.
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OldSkool
Yep. I knew it while I was taking the classes and no one could have told me any better....it was da werd, da werd, and nothing but da werd!
Again to be clear in my intent in the above post. It's the idea that there is a law set in place, an all powerful law that works for saint and sinner alike, that we control by our dominant thoughts and when we are careless with our dominant thoughts and slip into negative thinking that we bring calamity to ourselves.
Otherwise, focus, visualization, hard work, meditation, etc. are all valuable of their own merits.
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OldSkool
It's also of note that in the Martindale years magic was considered a dirty word in the white washing of various terms.
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Tzaia
Along with "creative," "luck," "karma," "yoga," "meditation," "can't," "won't", and "no".
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JavaJane
It's funny, a lot of those words give power to the individual - power of choice (no, won't, can't), or an implied innate ability within oneself (creative), or an ability to control one's destiny by our actions for good or bad (kharma), or an ability to control our body/mind (yoga, meditation) etc.... While in contrast the law of believing as it is taught by twi on the surface makes it SOUND like the individual has power but is actually a method to HAVE CONTROL over individuals by how it was applied.
I'm hoping that string of thought makes sense.
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OldSkool
Yes it does JJ!
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WordWolf
AFAIK,
vpw ripped this part off of EW Kenyon.
Basically, if you used initials, vpw would rip you off.
JE Stiles, BG Leonard, EW Kenyon, EW Bullinger....
Those of you who sat through pfal may remember him mentioning the
idea that people would thing what he was teaching was
"just v.p. talking."
Apparently, he tried to swipe the initials format, but it
didn't work for him, so he dropped it early.
He also dropped early the "w" hand signal, which supposedly
just would have stood for the WOW program.
(Don't remember it? There's a photo-with explanation- in twi's book
"the way:living in love.")
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Broken Arrow
Yeah, I remember it. Sometimes people would make the "w" sign with both hands. Then, with a hand on each side of their face, form their mouths in the shape of an "o". You know, W-O-W. It looked really stupid, I was glad it never caught on. Yeah, you guys that came in later really missed out on that one!
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Broken Arrow
Delete.
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Gen-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96kwILL35ig
Oh, ho, ho
It's magic, you know, Never believe it's not so
It's magic, you know, Never believe, it's not so
Never been awake, Never seen a day break
Leaning on my pillow in the morning, Lazy day in bed
Music in my head, Crazy music playing in the morning light
Oh, ho, ho
It's magic, you know, Never believe it's not so
It's magic, you know, Never believe, it's not so
I love my sunny day, Dream of far away
Dreaming on my pillow in the morning
Never been awake, Never seen a day break
Leaning on my pillow in the morning light
Oh, ho, ho
It's magic, you know, Never believe it's not so
It's magic, you know, Never believe, it's not so
Oh, ho, ho
It's magic, you know, Never believe it's not so
It's magic, you know, Never believe, it's not so
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soul searcher
I love that song!
Yes, I've always had a weakness for bubblegum pop.
I admit to being so old that I was actually alive and in my teens (okay, 16 years old, to be exact) when that song came out.
I never told any of my friends I liked it, though. I would have been marked and avoided. :)
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What About It
What an eye-opener. Thanks, Waysider. I need more of these.
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waysider
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mstar1
I happened to be up scanning the channels at 230 this morning and stopped at BookTV and listened to an interview with author Barbara Ehrenreich who has written a book entitled
BRIGHT-SIDED: HOW THE RELENTLESS PROMOTION OF POSITIVE THINKING HAS UNDERMINED AMERICA.
Although we have covered this subject many many times at GSpot, she was able to trace the development of 'positive thinking' over the last century and verbalize nearly all of the negative aspects of "positive thinking" in her 35 minute interview.
IMO, if you are interested in this subject its worth watching when you have the time.
you can link to the Video HERE
and here is aNY Times Article
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waysider
Thanks, mstar1
She certainly hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head in addressing issues that have been discussed here on multiple threads. It (viewing the video) was a half hour that was very well spent.
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