There is no explanation of forgiveness that is viable to the atheist, as far as I can see.
i'm glad you added "as far as i can see" because that is the point being made here i think, because the bible part being used here asks that we be forgiven as we forgive, so it is really very much "as far as i can see".
Debating questions of faith-based morality with an atheist is much like trying to debate the merits of Mozart with a shark.
No point.
this comparison is illogical to the discussion because it is not a valid comparison unless you think that an atheist is an animal that can not think much beyond "kill and eat", and if you do then you completely shoot down the work of the cross and the whole point of the forgiveness of god, because jesus didn't die for "born again believers" because there weren't any. can you imagine where christianity would be today if jesus had said this thing you are saying when he was hanging on the cross? instead he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do". this prayer by jesus is the "gold standard" of forgiveness.
If one does not believe in God, or any externally-based faith system, then one must fall back to belief systems that are arbitrary in origin and materialistic in nature.
Try "situational ethics".
For the devout atheist, I recommend evolutionary psychology, and human biodiversity.
Lots of fodder for those whose religion is atheism, and who bow before the altar of Darwinism...
i just can't imagine what christianity would be like if this was the response people got from jesus when coming to the cross. wait a minute, i can imagine it because i lived it while in the way international because the way international discounted the work of the cross just like is being done in these sentences.
Chockfull, yes, it can be a verse used to "cover up" but that's not the way God intended it; it's the way it was misused by TWI. TWI never wanted us to call anything as it was. God is not shy at calling things as they are and decries those who "wink at evil."
We are to "speak the truth in love" (Eph 4:15) - and part of speaking the truth is to speak up (nicely) when people are behaving badly. We are to speak up against those who "by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness ... lie in wait to deceive" (Eph 4:14). In other words, there's an expectation that unacceptable behavior will be confronted. Who can speak up is not limited. Especially, not limited to leadership!
If we are to speak the truth and decry deceit, etc, or any kind of wrongdoing, that does involve thinking about that behavior, why it is wrong, and how to deal with whatever situation is ongoing. It was right to confront leadership where their behavior was so outrageous. In fact, not doing so is wrong. This fine verse, Phil 4:8, does not bestow an invisibility cloak!!
Yes, very true. These things become difficult when someone is usurping God's authority and placing themselves as the authority over other people. I found this to be the case in TWI. "Speaking up" is something that I have always done, however, many avoid it for fear of consequences. When you have people in authority that take retribution against those who speak up, who carry grudges, who will issue excommunications at the drop of a hat, then this becomes a precarious precipice to negotiate.
However, looking to find evil is not to be our lifestyle. Not our habit. There are better thoughts to occupy our head space on a regular basis.
Phil 4:8 is set in the context of rejoicing, and living moderately. The verses immediately before and immediately afterwards talk of living in peace.
The structure is: help each other / rejoice / live moderately / peace / finally, my brethren ... think on these things / peace / rejoice./ lack of want & living within means.
That's God's will for our lives - what he wants, how to get it (and, if you like, what to do with it when you've got it!). A peaceful life.
There's no space for bearing grudges or harboring unforgiveness. Just not compatible.
I agree with your conclusion. The most the scriptures encourage us is to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". I'm always thankful to recollect that doves have no gall bladder as other mammals do. They have no physical capacity for storing bile and bitter acidic compounds. Wise as serpents has no direct analogy like that, but the representation is that we are not fooled by the beguiling tactics of the old serpent, the devil. We are not to be naieve as Christians and fooled by those who usurp God's authority for their own.
Very interesting, when one takes verses out of context...and never puts them back but learns to quote them out of context...and what a different emphasis they have when one does put them back into their proper context.
Yes it's a great discussion and good food for thought. We enjoy the scriptures as intended for us, despite how some have twisted them for their own ends.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, and to all at the Cafe!!!!
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness.
For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to think about it, hold it over anyone's head or hold a grudge. For the people that I know and love, I try to not assume the worst and ask for clarification if I think I am being hurt or offended. The vast majority of things that I could be mad about just aren't worth the trouble or are so insignificant compared to the relationship that I have with the "offender" that they don't even really hit the radar screen.
For things that are a little more serious, after making the other person aware of how I feel about the situation, I generally move on as if it didn't happen, but file the information away in case it becomes a pattern. If it doesn't come up again then I chalk it up to a bad day, stress, toothache or whatever, and put it out of my mind, but if it keeps coming up then I take whatever action is appropriate to prevent it from happening again.
For truly harmful situations I may decide to still interact with that person, but always watch out, always protect myself and those around me. For example, I have a family member with a history of anger issues, who I witnessed being abusive with a girlfriend some years ago; I have heard reliable testimony from other family of other incidents. While I still interact with him and have him in my home, I still don't fully trust him.
Forgiveness is one of those concepts that mean different things to different people. To me, it's a two-way street: if you have wronged me, you vow to never wrong me in that manner again and demonstrate your sincerity by not wronging me in that manner again and I refrain from reminding you of your offense if you have truly changed.
There are people from my past who, according to this definition, I have not forgiven, either because they continue to wrong me or because they refuse to acknowledge that their actions were in any way wrong. I don't spend much time thinking about these offenses, but neither do I interact with or otherwise trust these people. On the other hand I routinely act with other people as if previous offenses have not happened because they have changed their behavior toward me.
Mainly, I "forgive", not because one of the gods, or a holy book tells me that I should, but because this is how I want to be treated, and because it makes life a lot less stressful. It's practical.
That's why there's the "Book of Life" . . . a way of not only remembering grudges, but spreading them to others . . . fresh blood can look people up on the system, see if someone else is M&A or not standing etc, and behave accordingly . . . maybe that's more of a feud . . . passed on from generation to generation . . .
or to be even more bold.. a grand tradition, passed from one lifetime to the next..
Mr. Ham, And......
Ha! Do you REALLY want more?
maybe its karma..
you get da answers, one painful (but SOMETIMES) meaningful post at a time..
Does it mean to totally excuse people who have treated you wrongly, brought you suffering and pain? Act as if it really doesn't matter now?
If it does, then, no, there are some people I will never forgive.
On the other hand, if it means that I will attempt to resolve myself not to allow thoughts of them to consume my thinking and emotions, and dictate my psychological responses, then, yes, I think I can forgive them.
Mainly, I "forgive", not because one of the gods, or a holy book tells me that I should, but because this is how I want to be treated, and because it makes life a lot less stressful. It's practical.
Oak, I'm a Christian and am personally inspired by scriptures. But I just wanted to say that your approach to this is great and is a common sense balance that can filter out a lot of weird and wacky scripture interpretation. +100.
There is no explanation of forgiveness that is viable to the atheist, as far as I can see. (etc., etc., ad nauseum )
i'm glad you added "as far as i can see" because that is the point being made here i think, because the bible part being used here asks that we be forgiven as we forgive, so it is really very much "as far as i can see". ... (and so on)
He won't listen to you Brainfixed, as fundamentalist opinions like that are near impossible to overcome. As a matter of fact, this is a classic example of topical context in this thread re: forgiveness. Ie., that being the 'unforgivable sin' of being, and remaining, an atheist, by people like yours truly.
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness.
For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to think about it, hold it over anyone's head or hold a grudge. For the people that I know and love, I try to not assume the worst and ask for clarification if I think I am being hurt or offended. The vast majority of things that I could be mad about just aren't worth the trouble or are so insignificant compared to the relationship that I have with the "offender" that they don't even really hit the radar screen.
For things that are a little more serious, after making the other person aware of how I feel about the situation, I generally move on as if it didn't happen, but file the information away in case it becomes a pattern. If it doesn't come up again then I chalk it up to a bad day, stress, toothache or whatever, and put it out of my mind, but if it keeps coming up then I take whatever action is appropriate to prevent it from happening again.
For truly harmful situations I may decide to still interact with that person, but always watch out, always protect myself and those around me. For example, I have a family member with a history of anger issues, who I witnessed being abusive with a girlfriend some years ago; I have heard reliable testimony from other family of other incidents. While I still interact with him and have him in my home, I still don't fully trust him.
Forgiveness is one of those concepts that mean different things to different people. To me, it's a two-way street: if you have wronged me, you vow to never wrong me in that manner again and demonstrate your sincerity by not wronging me in that manner again and I refrain from reminding you of your offense if you have truly changed.
There are people from my past who, according to this definition, I have not forgiven, either because they continue to wrong me or because they refuse to acknowledge that their actions were in any way wrong. I don't spend much time thinking about these offenses, but neither do I interact with or otherwise trust these people. On the other hand I routinely act with other people as if previous offenses have not happened because they have changed their behavior toward me.
Mainly, I "forgive", not because one of the gods, or a holy book tells me that I should, but because this is how I want to be treated, and because it makes life a lot less stressful. It's practical.
For me and my opinion, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
He won't listen to you Brainfixed, as fundamentalist opinions like that are near impossible to overcome. As a matter of fact, this is a classic example of topical context in this thread re: forgiveness. Ie., that being the 'unforgivable sin' of being, and remaining, an atheist, by people like yours truly.
He won't listen to you Brainfixed, as fundamentalist opinions like that are near impossible to overcome. As a matter of fact, this is a classic example of topical context in this thread re: forgiveness. Ie., that being the 'unforgivable sin' of being, and remaining, an atheist, by people like yours truly.
somebody on this board has a quote that says something about if your god hates the same people you do then you've created your god in your image, and i think that's what almost everybody with a god does, so i didn't think that anybody that had already made up their minds would "listen" to me because changing your mind usually takes some life changing or life threatening event before anybody can see any reason to change their minds. and so i think that's probably what jesus meant when he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" because most human beings are stuck in their own thinking no matter what anybody (even jesus or the bible) says.
and thinking about it some more i also think that the most important part of this discussion is being left out and that's the part in the bible that says that nobody but god can know the heart of anybody else. if that's the truth then forgiveness is too personal to define it for the purpose of living it. it is too personal because as soon as somebody defines it for use with another person, then that somebody is saying they know the heart of the other person involved, and that brings the whole discussion right back to "father forgive them for they know not what to do" because that makes it god that is forgiving, which leaves the heart of "offender" in god's hands where it belongs. and also it leaves the power to forgive in god's hands, and god is the only person that can forgive if anybody is using the bible as the rule for the discussion.
now thinking about what i just said then i see clearly that "forgiveness" is being mixed up with social graces and earthly "justice" and personal well-being, and that confusion happens all the time when forgiveness is being discussed, and in the end of the discussion the whole idea of "forgiveness" hasn't got anything to do with renewing another person to a healed state, but everything to do with making a person's own self better, which isn't forgiveness at all because forgiveness is supposed to be a gift of healing for all involved no matter what a person has to do to get to that point that all involved get healed in the situation. that is the standard jesus set for his followers to rise to when he chose the path of the cross, so if anybody says they're christian then the standard of the christ would logically be the defining standard because to use any other standard wouldn't be christianity anymore.
now thinking about what i just said then i see clearly that "forgiveness" is being mixed up with social graces and earthly "justice" and personal well-being, and that confusion happens all the time when forgiveness is being discussed, and in the end of the discussion the whole idea of "forgiveness" hasn't got anything to do with renewing another person to a healed state, but everything to do with making a person's own self better, which isn't forgiveness at all because forgiveness is supposed to be a gift of healing for all involved no matter what a person has to do to get to that point that all involved get healed in the situation. that is the standard jesus set for his followers to rise to when he chose the path of the cross, so if anybody says they're christian then the standard of the christ would logically be the defining standard because to use any other standard wouldn't be christianity anymore.
You have some penetrating logic on this topic brainfixed, that certainly makes me rethink things. The tough part applying this is in the context of how does someone recover from an abusive situation, relationship, or environment? You have to forgive the abuser at least somewhat for your own health, to make your own self better. But for justice sake and for others you can't excuse the unrepentant abuser and in that sense can't renew them to a healed state. It's kind of a moral dilemma. Jesus didn't forgive the devil, did he, for orchestrating his death? Just people. Also, it's a matter of opinion on whether he prayed for forgiveness for all involved with his death, or just the pawns in the game carrying it out as opposed to the ruling class Judeans who orchestrated it.
The balance between mercy and justice is one that tempts a person to play God. But we are unworthy and unqualified. We can't even save ourselves. All we can say is that God is just, and God is merciful to the repentant, of which I am trying to be.
You have some penetrating logic on this topic brainfixed, that certainly makes me rethink things. The tough part applying this is in the context of how does someone recover from an abusive situation, relationship, or environment? You have to forgive the abuser at least somewhat for your own health, to make your own self better.
i think that if someone looks at what they are trying to accomplish by "forgiving" it might make things a little more clear to just what they're doing in reality. i personally know too much about abuse and i had to learn to look at what i was wanting from those abusers that kept me from moving on in my life, and i found out that i was expecting at least an admission that they had done something wrong before i could "forgive" them in my mind, and that led to me realizing that expecting something before i could "forgive" was not really forgiveness at all, but what i really wanted was them to acknowledge their wrong doing so that i could have the satisfaction of them knowing their wrongs. that was a tough one to recognize! it made me seem so petty and childish! but really that is exactly what most people want before they will "forgive" and that doesn't really bring any peace of mind that lasts for more than the minute of that cheap satisfaction, so i had to look at what else i was thinking about forgiveness and figure out why it was so hard for me to let go, and it was things i struggled with here at greasespot cafe that got me really looking at that stuff i was holding onto and the things that finally got through to me were all the discussions i read that turned sour because of things nobody could "see" through their moniters to figure out what somebody was trying to say. that's when i began thinking about the whole "father forgive them for they know not what they do". i talked this through with my therapist for a long time and she helped me to see that as long as i expect anything like an admission of wrong, an acknowledgement of wrong, an apology, a change of behavior or anything else from the perpetrator, then i'm still bound to the perpetrator and still letting them dictate my thoughts and feelings and actions. she asked me if could just let it go because it was in my past and i didn't want to take it with me to my future.
But for justice sake and for others you can't excuse the unrepentant abuser and in that sense can't renew them to a healed state. It's kind of a moral dilemma.
it wouldn't be a "moral dilemma" to people living in a closed society with an absolute set of beliefs like with small tribes or like in a cult. this discussion board is full of people saying things like "i didn't know what i was doing when i ________ until after i got out". a good example of this is the whole discussion about child abuse in the way international and the wooden spoon or forcing very young children to be quiet and go without food and drink for long "teachings". when everybody agrees on the rules then everybody can see the simple answers even if they're "wrong" for "outsiders". i think that may be why forgiveness is such a big discussion here because it is hard to think outside of a group once someone has done it for a long time. there are still native american tribes that don't buy into the laws of the united states and these tribes can (and usually do if the tribe is strong enough) bring the perpetrator under their own laws, and i have seen this happen a couple of times and the perpetrator is usually not put in a punishment situation but is put in a learning environment (that probably feels like punishment to the perpetrator) until the perpetrator is brought to a healed state, but if they can't (and they work a long time before they give up) do that then the perpetrator might be turned over to the laws of the united states, but there are many other options those tribes tried first.
but for a society as big and as different in beliefs and as loosely joined as the american society even the bible's form of forgiveness can't be the standard because not everybody even believes the bible. because of this then forgiveness becomes a matter of personal beliefs, and if somebody is using the bible as their standard then they might want to understand that there's nothing they themselves can do to really forgive anybody, and then they might also understand that the "lord's prayer" was given to help people that had no exemplified understanding of grace to come to a place of understanding.
Jesus didn't forgive the devil, did he, for orchestrating his death? Just people.
Also, it's a matter of opinion on whether he prayed for forgiveness for all involved with his death, or just the pawns in the game carrying it out as opposed to the ruling class Judeans who orchestrated it.
really? those are very thin hairs to split, i think.
The balance between mercy and justice is one that tempts a person to play God. But we are unworthy and unqualified. We can't even save ourselves. All we can say is that God is just, and God is merciful to the repentant, of which I am trying to be.
i think that if someone looks at what they are trying to accomplish by "forgiving" it might make things a little more clear to just what they're doing in reality. i personally know too much about abuse and i had to learn to look at what i was wanting from those abusers that kept me from moving on in my life, and i found out that i was expecting at least an admission that they had done something wrong before i could "forgive" them in my mind, and that led to me realizing that expecting something before i could "forgive" was not really forgiveness at all, but what i really wanted was them to acknowledge their wrong doing so that i could have the satisfaction of them knowing their wrongs. that was a tough one to recognize! it made me seem so petty and childish! but really that is exactly what most people want before they will "forgive" and that doesn't really bring any peace of mind that lasts for more than the minute of that cheap satisfaction, so i had to look at what else i was thinking about forgiveness and figure out why it was so hard for me to let go, and it was things i struggled with here at greasespot cafe that got me really looking at that stuff i was holding onto and the things that finally got through to me were all the discussions i read that turned sour because of things nobody could "see" through their moniters to figure out what somebody was trying to say. that's when i began thinking about the whole "father forgive them for they know not what they do". i talked this through with my therapist for a long time and she helped me to see that as long as i expect anything like an admission of wrong, an acknowledgement of wrong, an apology, a change of behavior or anything else from the perpetrator, then i'm still bound to the perpetrator and still letting them dictate my thoughts and feelings and actions. she asked me if could just let it go because it was in my past and i didn't want to take it with me to my future.
I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us.
it wouldn't be a "moral dilemma" to people living in a closed society with an absolute set of beliefs like with small tribes or like in a cult. this discussion board is full of people saying things like "i didn't know what i was doing when i ________ until after i got out". a good example of this is the whole discussion about child abuse in the way international and the wooden spoon or forcing very young children to be quiet and go without food and drink for long "teachings". when everybody agrees on the rules then everybody can see the simple answers even if they're "wrong" for "outsiders". i think that may be why forgiveness is such a big discussion here because it is hard to think outside of a group once someone has done it for a long time. there are still native american tribes that don't buy into the laws of the united states and these tribes can (and usually do if the tribe is strong enough) bring the perpetrator under their own laws, and i have seen this happen a couple of times and the perpetrator is usually not put in a punishment situation but is put in a learning environment (that probably feels like punishment to the perpetrator) until the perpetrator is brought to a healed state, but if they can't (and they work a long time before they give up) do that then the perpetrator might be turned over to the laws of the united states, but there are many other options those tribes tried first.
but for a society as big and as different in beliefs and as loosely joined as the american society even the bible's form of forgiveness can't be the standard because not everybody even believes the bible. because of this then forgiveness becomes a matter of personal beliefs, and if somebody is using the bible as their standard then they might want to understand that there's nothing they themselves can do to really forgive anybody, and then they might also understand that the "lord's prayer" was given to help people that had no exemplified understanding of grace to come to a place of understanding.
IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out.
really? those are very thin hairs to split, i think.
Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?
I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us.
IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out.
Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?
First,... Forgiveness seems such a simple concept, because it actually is. It's can be very difficult to implement in practical living though, depending on the circumstances of the offense. Of course the only way to rid the world of the need for forgiveness, is to remove free choice. That way, no one can do something which will injure someone else, they'll always do good and the entire concept of forgiveness will be meaningless to us any longer.
Second,... Forgiving someone is different than fixing anything. Whether someone has been forgiven or not, consequences may still arise, because nothing was actually "fixed" by forgiving that person. Likewise, when God forgives us - nothing is fixed - we're just forgiven. Being forgiven does allow for rebuilding a relationship, but it never guarantees it.
Third,... saying you've forgiven someone, is different from forgiving someone. God asks us to be forgiving, It can be horrendously difficult to learn how to successfully forgive someone, sometimes.
I, too, love this thread and have come to enjoy the freedom that comes with forgiveness. I still have a few hangups about it but they're only small in comparison to understanding that I have to forgive, I need to, I will and I do see the benefits.
What I don't understand yet is not caring or carrying it around with me when I've been wronged and believe another should apologize to me, ask forgiveness and know they won't, can not, refuse to and would sooner chew off their own head before they did. "Ask forgiveness? For WHAT? I didn't do anything wrong! ! ! ! !" uhhuh
So, I forgive on my part and have since learned to let it go (mostly) as far as breath holding. And it seems to be a gender thing, for alot of the part.
I get it. And those that I think should have the courage to talk to me or others about wrongs done aren't wasting any of their time on it, so that's where I am able to relax; they are not giving me or others even a fraction of their time in their heart or mind.
Shame on them, but yup, I'll do my part cuz I'm supposed to.
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness.
For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to think about it, hold it over anyone's head or hold a grudge. For the people that I know and love, I try to not assume the worst and ask for clarification if I think I am being hurt or offended. The vast majority of things that I could be mad about just aren't worth the trouble or are so insignificant compared to the relationship that I have with the "offender" that they don't even really hit the radar screen.
For things that are a little more serious, after making the other person aware of how I feel about the situation, I generally move on as if it didn't happen, but file the information away in case it becomes a pattern. If it doesn't come up again then I chalk it up to a bad day, stress, toothache or whatever, and put it out of my mind, but if it keeps coming up then I take whatever action is appropriate to prevent it from happening again.
For truly harmful situations I may decide to still interact with that person, but always watch out, always protect myself and those around me. For example, I have a family member with a history of anger issues, who I witnessed being abusive with a girlfriend some years ago; I have heard reliable testimony from other family of other incidents. While I still interact with him and have him in my home, I still don't fully trust him.
Forgiveness is one of those concepts that mean different things to different people. To me, it's a two-way street: if you have wronged me, you vow to never wrong me in that manner again and demonstrate your sincerity by not wronging me in that manner again and I refrain from reminding you of your offense if you have truly changed.
There are people from my past who, according to this definition, I have not forgiven, either because they continue to wrong me or because they refuse to acknowledge that their actions were in any way wrong. I don't spend much time thinking about these offenses, but neither do I interact with or otherwise trust these people. On the other hand I routinely act with other people as if previous offenses have not happened because they have changed their behavior toward me.
Mainly, I "forgive", not because one of the gods, or a holy book tells me that I should, but because this is how I want to be treated, and because it makes life a lot less stressful. It's practical.
Bingo. It's been a while, Oak, but as usual said it better and more succinctly than I ever could.
but for a society as big and as different in beliefs and as loosely joined as the american society even the bible's form of forgiveness can't be the standard because not everybody even believes the bible. because of this then forgiveness becomes a matter of personal beliefs,
I would agree with that. Although, that isn't going to sit well with the commonly held belief that the bible has all the answers no matter what your society. But what is the Bible's form of forgiveness anyway? It doesn't seem to be as clear as some would say. On one hand you've got the Lord's prayer saying forgive us our sins in the same way we forgive those of others. On the other hand you're told to forgive each other the way God through the messiah has forgiven you. The former is based on your acts of forgiveness while the later is based on God's master plan that was in place long before you were around and about payment for generations of sins through suffering, death and blood. Neither seems to be about healing. Did Jesus need to forgive his killers to move on? Does God need to forgive you your sins to move on?
I don't see bitterness (claimed to be caused by lack of forgiveness) as being the thing that binds us to "the wounds of yesterday" and to those that caused the wounds. That would be pain. Pain is understandable while bitterness by way of unforgiveness puts the blame back on the one who has been harmed. That's unacceptable in mind. Bitter people are people who harbor a lot of pain. The "moving on" and "letting go" that we're talking about is letting go of the pain. As with any wound, pain goes away before or while the healing takes place. I think that is what many of you are talking about with forgiveness.
I see no need to define forgiveness in a way that suits our day, other than this "need" to forgive because we are told to by the Bible and religious leaders. Forgive for fear of not being forgiven or in the hopes of being forgiven? How about forgive those that deserve it and stay away from those that repeatedly hurt you. Don't hold a grudge unless someone has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of your friendship and your time. Deal with your pain, learn from it, let it go and move on.
Bingo. It's been a while, Oak, but as usual said it better and more succinctly than I ever could.
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I would agree with that. Although, that isn't going to sit well with the commonly held belief that the bible has all the answers no matter what your society. But what is the Bible's form of forgiveness anyway? It doesn't seem to be as clear as some would say. On one hand you've got the Lord's prayer saying forgive us our sins in the same way we forgive those of others. On the other hand you're told to forgive each other the way God through the messiah has forgiven you. The former is based on your acts of forgiveness while the later is based on God's master plan that was in place long before you were around and about payment for generations of sins through suffering, death and blood. Neither seems to be about healing. Did Jesus need to forgive his killers to move on? Does God need to forgive you your sins to move on?
I don't see bitterness (claimed to be caused by lack of forgiveness) as being the thing that binds us to "the wounds of yesterday" and to those that caused the wounds. That would be pain. Pain is understandable while bitterness by way of unforgiveness puts the blame back on the one who has been harmed. That's unacceptable in mind. Bitter people are people who harbor a lot of pain. The "moving on" and "letting go" that we're talking about is letting go of the pain. As with any wound, pain goes away before or while the healing takes place. I think that is what many of you are talking about with forgiveness.
I see no need to define forgiveness in a way that suits our day, other than this "need" to forgive because we are told to by the Bible and religious leaders. Forgive for fear of not being forgiven or in the hopes of being forgiven? How about forgive those that deserve it and stay away from those that repeatedly hurt you. Don't hold a grudge unless someone has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of your friendship and your time. Deal with your pain, learn from it, let it go and move on.
yah, what you just said! thank you for this.
I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us.
IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out.
Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?
I see no need to define forgiveness in a way that suits our day, other than this "need" to forgive because we are told to by the Bible and religious leaders. Forgive for fear of not being forgiven or in the hopes of being forgiven? How about forgive those that deserve it and stay away from those that repeatedly hurt you. Don't hold a grudge unless someone has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of your friendship and your time. Deal with your pain, learn from it, let it go and move on.
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bowtwi
This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us hav
Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee. The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a perso
Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness. For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to thin
brainfixed
i'm glad you added "as far as i can see" because that is the point being made here i think, because the bible part being used here asks that we be forgiven as we forgive, so it is really very much "as far as i can see".
this comparison is illogical to the discussion because it is not a valid comparison unless you think that an atheist is an animal that can not think much beyond "kill and eat", and if you do then you completely shoot down the work of the cross and the whole point of the forgiveness of god, because jesus didn't die for "born again believers" because there weren't any. can you imagine where christianity would be today if jesus had said this thing you are saying when he was hanging on the cross? instead he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do". this prayer by jesus is the "gold standard" of forgiveness.
i just can't imagine what christianity would be like if this was the response people got from jesus when coming to the cross. wait a minute, i can imagine it because i lived it while in the way international because the way international discounted the work of the cross just like is being done in these sentences.
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chockfull
Yes, very true. These things become difficult when someone is usurping God's authority and placing themselves as the authority over other people. I found this to be the case in TWI. "Speaking up" is something that I have always done, however, many avoid it for fear of consequences. When you have people in authority that take retribution against those who speak up, who carry grudges, who will issue excommunications at the drop of a hat, then this becomes a precarious precipice to negotiate.
I agree with your conclusion. The most the scriptures encourage us is to be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". I'm always thankful to recollect that doves have no gall bladder as other mammals do. They have no physical capacity for storing bile and bitter acidic compounds. Wise as serpents has no direct analogy like that, but the representation is that we are not fooled by the beguiling tactics of the old serpent, the devil. We are not to be naieve as Christians and fooled by those who usurp God's authority for their own.
Yes it's a great discussion and good food for thought. We enjoy the scriptures as intended for us, despite how some have twisted them for their own ends.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, and to all at the Cafe!!!!
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Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness.
For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to think about it, hold it over anyone's head or hold a grudge. For the people that I know and love, I try to not assume the worst and ask for clarification if I think I am being hurt or offended. The vast majority of things that I could be mad about just aren't worth the trouble or are so insignificant compared to the relationship that I have with the "offender" that they don't even really hit the radar screen.
For things that are a little more serious, after making the other person aware of how I feel about the situation, I generally move on as if it didn't happen, but file the information away in case it becomes a pattern. If it doesn't come up again then I chalk it up to a bad day, stress, toothache or whatever, and put it out of my mind, but if it keeps coming up then I take whatever action is appropriate to prevent it from happening again.
For truly harmful situations I may decide to still interact with that person, but always watch out, always protect myself and those around me. For example, I have a family member with a history of anger issues, who I witnessed being abusive with a girlfriend some years ago; I have heard reliable testimony from other family of other incidents. While I still interact with him and have him in my home, I still don't fully trust him.
Forgiveness is one of those concepts that mean different things to different people. To me, it's a two-way street: if you have wronged me, you vow to never wrong me in that manner again and demonstrate your sincerity by not wronging me in that manner again and I refrain from reminding you of your offense if you have truly changed.
There are people from my past who, according to this definition, I have not forgiven, either because they continue to wrong me or because they refuse to acknowledge that their actions were in any way wrong. I don't spend much time thinking about these offenses, but neither do I interact with or otherwise trust these people. On the other hand I routinely act with other people as if previous offenses have not happened because they have changed their behavior toward me.
Mainly, I "forgive", not because one of the gods, or a holy book tells me that I should, but because this is how I want to be treated, and because it makes life a lot less stressful. It's practical.
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Ham
or to be even more bold.. a grand tradition, passed from one lifetime to the next..
Ha! Do you REALLY want more?
maybe its karma..
you get da answers, one painful (but SOMETIMES) meaningful post at a time..
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waysider
What does forgiveness really mean?
Does it mean to totally excuse people who have treated you wrongly, brought you suffering and pain? Act as if it really doesn't matter now?
If it does, then, no, there are some people I will never forgive.
On the other hand, if it means that I will attempt to resolve myself not to allow thoughts of them to consume my thinking and emotions, and dictate my psychological responses, then, yes, I think I can forgive them.
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chockfull
Oak, I'm a Christian and am personally inspired by scriptures. But I just wanted to say that your approach to this is great and is a common sense balance that can filter out a lot of weird and wacky scripture interpretation. +100.
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Ham
what does it mean, indeed..
what it means to me is for those to LET me forgive them..
I would love to have the "opportunity"..
to allow others to forgive me..
scary thoughts..
:)
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GarthP2000
Brainfixed,
He won't listen to you Brainfixed, as fundamentalist opinions like that are near impossible to overcome. As a matter of fact, this is a classic example of topical context in this thread re: forgiveness. Ie., that being the 'unforgivable sin' of being, and remaining, an atheist, by people like yours truly.
<_<
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GarthP2000
For me and my opinion, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
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Ham
Please don't call it impossible..
anything is possible..
:D
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Ham
sorry.. I was one of the impossibles..
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brainfixed
somebody on this board has a quote that says something about if your god hates the same people you do then you've created your god in your image, and i think that's what almost everybody with a god does, so i didn't think that anybody that had already made up their minds would "listen" to me because changing your mind usually takes some life changing or life threatening event before anybody can see any reason to change their minds. and so i think that's probably what jesus meant when he said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" because most human beings are stuck in their own thinking no matter what anybody (even jesus or the bible) says.
and thinking about it some more i also think that the most important part of this discussion is being left out and that's the part in the bible that says that nobody but god can know the heart of anybody else. if that's the truth then forgiveness is too personal to define it for the purpose of living it. it is too personal because as soon as somebody defines it for use with another person, then that somebody is saying they know the heart of the other person involved, and that brings the whole discussion right back to "father forgive them for they know not what to do" because that makes it god that is forgiving, which leaves the heart of "offender" in god's hands where it belongs. and also it leaves the power to forgive in god's hands, and god is the only person that can forgive if anybody is using the bible as the rule for the discussion.
now thinking about what i just said then i see clearly that "forgiveness" is being mixed up with social graces and earthly "justice" and personal well-being, and that confusion happens all the time when forgiveness is being discussed, and in the end of the discussion the whole idea of "forgiveness" hasn't got anything to do with renewing another person to a healed state, but everything to do with making a person's own self better, which isn't forgiveness at all because forgiveness is supposed to be a gift of healing for all involved no matter what a person has to do to get to that point that all involved get healed in the situation. that is the standard jesus set for his followers to rise to when he chose the path of the cross, so if anybody says they're christian then the standard of the christ would logically be the defining standard because to use any other standard wouldn't be christianity anymore.
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chockfull
You have some penetrating logic on this topic brainfixed, that certainly makes me rethink things. The tough part applying this is in the context of how does someone recover from an abusive situation, relationship, or environment? You have to forgive the abuser at least somewhat for your own health, to make your own self better. But for justice sake and for others you can't excuse the unrepentant abuser and in that sense can't renew them to a healed state. It's kind of a moral dilemma. Jesus didn't forgive the devil, did he, for orchestrating his death? Just people. Also, it's a matter of opinion on whether he prayed for forgiveness for all involved with his death, or just the pawns in the game carrying it out as opposed to the ruling class Judeans who orchestrated it.
The balance between mercy and justice is one that tempts a person to play God. But we are unworthy and unqualified. We can't even save ourselves. All we can say is that God is just, and God is merciful to the repentant, of which I am trying to be.
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brainfixed
i think that if someone looks at what they are trying to accomplish by "forgiving" it might make things a little more clear to just what they're doing in reality. i personally know too much about abuse and i had to learn to look at what i was wanting from those abusers that kept me from moving on in my life, and i found out that i was expecting at least an admission that they had done something wrong before i could "forgive" them in my mind, and that led to me realizing that expecting something before i could "forgive" was not really forgiveness at all, but what i really wanted was them to acknowledge their wrong doing so that i could have the satisfaction of them knowing their wrongs. that was a tough one to recognize! it made me seem so petty and childish! but really that is exactly what most people want before they will "forgive" and that doesn't really bring any peace of mind that lasts for more than the minute of that cheap satisfaction, so i had to look at what else i was thinking about forgiveness and figure out why it was so hard for me to let go, and it was things i struggled with here at greasespot cafe that got me really looking at that stuff i was holding onto and the things that finally got through to me were all the discussions i read that turned sour because of things nobody could "see" through their moniters to figure out what somebody was trying to say. that's when i began thinking about the whole "father forgive them for they know not what they do". i talked this through with my therapist for a long time and she helped me to see that as long as i expect anything like an admission of wrong, an acknowledgement of wrong, an apology, a change of behavior or anything else from the perpetrator, then i'm still bound to the perpetrator and still letting them dictate my thoughts and feelings and actions. she asked me if could just let it go because it was in my past and i didn't want to take it with me to my future.
it wouldn't be a "moral dilemma" to people living in a closed society with an absolute set of beliefs like with small tribes or like in a cult. this discussion board is full of people saying things like "i didn't know what i was doing when i ________ until after i got out". a good example of this is the whole discussion about child abuse in the way international and the wooden spoon or forcing very young children to be quiet and go without food and drink for long "teachings". when everybody agrees on the rules then everybody can see the simple answers even if they're "wrong" for "outsiders". i think that may be why forgiveness is such a big discussion here because it is hard to think outside of a group once someone has done it for a long time. there are still native american tribes that don't buy into the laws of the united states and these tribes can (and usually do if the tribe is strong enough) bring the perpetrator under their own laws, and i have seen this happen a couple of times and the perpetrator is usually not put in a punishment situation but is put in a learning environment (that probably feels like punishment to the perpetrator) until the perpetrator is brought to a healed state, but if they can't (and they work a long time before they give up) do that then the perpetrator might be turned over to the laws of the united states, but there are many other options those tribes tried first.
but for a society as big and as different in beliefs and as loosely joined as the american society even the bible's form of forgiveness can't be the standard because not everybody even believes the bible. because of this then forgiveness becomes a matter of personal beliefs, and if somebody is using the bible as their standard then they might want to understand that there's nothing they themselves can do to really forgive anybody, and then they might also understand that the "lord's prayer" was given to help people that had no exemplified understanding of grace to come to a place of understanding.
really? those are very thin hairs to split, i think.
yah. me too.
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chockfull
I agree with your therapist. We can't carry abusers with us on our back our whole lives. They're too heavy. We should dump them off and move on, and that can't be conditional upon their realization or response. Conditions just continues to give them power over us.
IMO that's why I just leave the justice side of it to God. It's way too complicated for me to figure out.
Well, it makes you think. I mean, couldn't God just forgive Satan, get him healed up, and then there would be no more evil? Why not? And does this apply to people too?
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Gen-2
First,... Forgiveness seems such a simple concept, because it actually is. It's can be very difficult to implement in practical living though, depending on the circumstances of the offense. Of course the only way to rid the world of the need for forgiveness, is to remove free choice. That way, no one can do something which will injure someone else, they'll always do good and the entire concept of forgiveness will be meaningless to us any longer.
Second,... Forgiving someone is different than fixing anything. Whether someone has been forgiven or not, consequences may still arise, because nothing was actually "fixed" by forgiving that person. Likewise, when God forgives us - nothing is fixed - we're just forgiven. Being forgiven does allow for rebuilding a relationship, but it never guarantees it.
Third,... saying you've forgiven someone, is different from forgiving someone. God asks us to be forgiving, It can be horrendously difficult to learn how to successfully forgive someone, sometimes.
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Shellon
I, too, love this thread and have come to enjoy the freedom that comes with forgiveness. I still have a few hangups about it but they're only small in comparison to understanding that I have to forgive, I need to, I will and I do see the benefits.
What I don't understand yet is not caring or carrying it around with me when I've been wronged and believe another should apologize to me, ask forgiveness and know they won't, can not, refuse to and would sooner chew off their own head before they did. "Ask forgiveness? For WHAT? I didn't do anything wrong! ! ! ! !" uhhuh
So, I forgive on my part and have since learned to let it go (mostly) as far as breath holding. And it seems to be a gender thing, for alot of the part.
I get it. And those that I think should have the courage to talk to me or others about wrongs done aren't wasting any of their time on it, so that's where I am able to relax; they are not giving me or others even a fraction of their time in their heart or mind.
Shame on them, but yup, I'll do my part cuz I'm supposed to.
I know it's impossible to polish a turd.
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lindyhopper
Bingo. It's been a while, Oak, but as usual said it better and more succinctly than I ever could.
I would agree with that. Although, that isn't going to sit well with the commonly held belief that the bible has all the answers no matter what your society. But what is the Bible's form of forgiveness anyway? It doesn't seem to be as clear as some would say. On one hand you've got the Lord's prayer saying forgive us our sins in the same way we forgive those of others. On the other hand you're told to forgive each other the way God through the messiah has forgiven you. The former is based on your acts of forgiveness while the later is based on God's master plan that was in place long before you were around and about payment for generations of sins through suffering, death and blood. Neither seems to be about healing. Did Jesus need to forgive his killers to move on? Does God need to forgive you your sins to move on?
I don't see bitterness (claimed to be caused by lack of forgiveness) as being the thing that binds us to "the wounds of yesterday" and to those that caused the wounds. That would be pain. Pain is understandable while bitterness by way of unforgiveness puts the blame back on the one who has been harmed. That's unacceptable in mind. Bitter people are people who harbor a lot of pain. The "moving on" and "letting go" that we're talking about is letting go of the pain. As with any wound, pain goes away before or while the healing takes place. I think that is what many of you are talking about with forgiveness.
I see no need to define forgiveness in a way that suits our day, other than this "need" to forgive because we are told to by the Bible and religious leaders. Forgive for fear of not being forgiven or in the hopes of being forgiven? How about forgive those that deserve it and stay away from those that repeatedly hurt you. Don't hold a grudge unless someone has repeatedly proven themselves unworthy of your friendship and your time. Deal with your pain, learn from it, let it go and move on.
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brainfixed
yah, what you just said! thank you for this.
it does make me rethink!
this discussion is getting deep and i like it!
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chockfull
I like this practical advice!!!
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cman
Forgiveness becomes part of your life style.
To the point that it's not even a question anymore.
Not that we don't get mad or hurt.
Or need it ourselves.
Just that it is not an issue anymore.
Forgiveness before anything even happens.
It's already a decision made to live like that.
And not as an excuse to do wrong or let ourselves be wronged, not anything like that.
If it was that would kill the lifestyle of forgiveness with bitterness, resentment and more.
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socks
"Forgiveness before anything even happens.
It's already a decision made to live like that.
And not as an excuse to do wrong or let ourselves be wronged, not anything like that."
Profound, cman.
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excathedra
please forgive me for not having an attention span lol
did jesus ever ask father to forgive them for they know what they do ?
just curious
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cman
something like that exc,
i don't think he was asking though...
who really knows what they are doing anyway
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