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Nero

Family back in the way

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In particular,

the NASB is an excellent choice for this.

It's a hit among ex-twi'ers because it has the italics- which is the only legitimate reason

to prefer the KJV anymore. It is a word-for-word translation, which is the same approach

as the KJV. It is greatly superior to the KJV all other ways except nostalgia and

dramtic reading. It takes advantage of textual discoveries made in the last 2 centuries,

and it uses a consistent translation of words, where you have to spend less time ferreting

out in the Greek when a meaning changed because of translator bias- word A is translated

word 1 very consistently (not perfectly, of course, but much closer than the KJV.)

I've seen it lauded by scholars not familiar with twi- although they preferred other

versions for their own reasons, they complimented this one overall.

If you want to shock her, you can use her Greek Interlinears to show how the NASB doesn't

make the mistake the KJV does in talking about Jesus in early Luke-

which is one of 2 passages from the Gospels that shows that twi's doctrine about abortion

being ok because before 9 months it's not a baby is completely false- if one actually

reads the Bible without bias and without a KJV.

If you don't have the references handy for that, let me know and I'll lay it out simply.

(I've done it at the GSC before at some point.)

Oh, I have to really go though that slow and read through again. I remember the abortion being okay in TWI. I bought into it when I was young and stupid. Now having a son myself I feel ashamed of ever believing that. I can't believe my mother - who loved her kids would have ever agreed with what they said. I don't think she did really - because she said she couldn't imagine having an abortion herself. I remember having a conversation about when my son could see inside the womb or dream and it seemed to bother her a lot. Maybe it made her think about what they said.

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Maybe they banned the use of different bibles only where I was. I remember it was highly discouraged to read from a different translation.

I don't remember any banning as such, just that there is so much material available relating to KJV [which is actually called the Authorised Version, did you know that?] [because it is "authorised to be read in churches" - see its foreword] that it's easier to use KJV/AV. And of course everything always came at us in that old-fashioned wording. Also, we were always so busy doing - whatever - that few would find the time to spend hours reading another version - when if you'd tried to prepare a twig teaching using another version, you'd probably have been jumped on.

But what kudos! You can give a "literal according to usage" that might have been uplifted almost word for word from some more modern version. And you can spend hours teaching people some inane perceived nuance, thus avoiding having to teach something that can actually be applied and used in someone's lifestyle.

Be kind to her. Really kind. Surprise her. You're not in TWI now.

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I don't remember any banning as such, just that there is so much material available relating to KJV [which is actually called the Authorised Version, did you know that?] [because it is "authorised to be read in churches" - see its foreword] that it's easier to use KJV/AV. And of course everything always came at us in that old-fashioned wording.

The archaic phrasing made it easy for vpw to consult the Greek or whatever

to correct errors when he wished,

but retain the errors when they suited his purpose.

We shouldn't retain errors or lies even when it suits us.

Example:

In early Genesis, Adam was told to "replenish" the Earth. So, vpw explained why that word

was used- but it wasn't, that's the word for "fill." You can still believe there was a

previous Fall without the word "replenish" there, but you can't keep it there and be

HONEST because "replenish" was a KJV interpolation.

There's others, I don't feel like rattling them off right now (the ones I remember offhand.)

(snip)

But what kudos! You can give a "literal according to usage" that might have been uplifted almost word for word from some more modern version. And you can spend hours teaching people some inane perceived nuance, thus avoiding having to teach something that can actually be applied and used in someone's lifestyle.

Philippians 4:13, KJV

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

twi's "literal according to usage" of Philippians 4:13...

" I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me."

Acts 29 even did a song written around that, and named their 2nd album "Ready for Anything."

Philippians 4:13, Amplified Bible.

" I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me ; I am self-sufficient in Christ’s sufficiency]."

How about that! vpw did independent research and just happened to hit upon

the exact phrasing used in a paraphrase Bible for something, word for word.

Perhaps both vpw and the researcher for the Amplified Bible got the same

revelation from God Almighty.

Or, maybe, vpw plagiarized yet another person and figured nobody would notice.

Be kind to her. Really kind. Surprise her. You're not in TWI now.

Yeah. Despite our own training, we don't have to be nasty nor heavy-handed.

Many Christians are compassionate and loving-which all of us are supposed to be.

(Some of us never got the memo.)

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Oh, I have to really go though that slow and read through again. I remember the abortion being okay in TWI. I bought into it when I was young and stupid. Now having a son myself I feel ashamed of ever believing that. I can't believe my mother - who loved her kids would have ever agreed with what they said. I don't think she did really - because she said she couldn't imagine having an abortion herself. I remember having a conversation about when my son could see inside the womb or dream and it seemed to bother her a lot. Maybe it made her think about what they said.

The explanation was backwards. vpw wanted to believe orgies were acceptable to God,

so he privately twisted the meaning of a single verse and claimed that's what it meant.

vpw wanted to believe abortion was acceptable to God, so he invented a doctrine through

what twi called "private interpretation" and misused a single verse to supposedly support it.

twi said Jesus was referred to as a "holy thing",

and used the King James Version to support that.

But twi checked a lot of things against the Greek and found they didn't match what was in the KJV.....

and NEVER CHECKED "holy thing" to see if it matched.......

This phrase appears ONCE in the New Testament.

King James Version, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

NIV, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

NASB, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

ESV, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;

therefore the child to be born will be called holy--the Son of God."

CEV, Luke 1:35

"The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come down to you, and God's power will come over you. So your

child will be called the holy Son of God."

Then there's the less literal versions.

The only one who mentions a "thing" is the KJV.

In fact, even the NEW KJV says....

NKJV, Luke 1:35

"And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

Last time I studied this in the Greek, I found the most literal word-for-word translation for that phrase

matches the NIV and the NKV.

The word "hagion" in the Stephens Text (per the Gordon Ricker-Berry Interlinear) is what the KJV

renders "holy THING."

That's a little odd, since the plural of this word is what's rendered "SAINTS" in the Epistles in the KJV,

the "holy ones".

This "thing" thing is ERROR.

twi never corrected it because this ERROR supports their ERROR in Doctrine.

"See? Even the angel referred to Jesus as a 'thing.'"

Bull-muffins.

Edited by WordWolf

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vpw put forth the "private interpretation" that the potential for something precedes the existence

of that thing. (Zero verses.) vpw put forth the "private interpretation" that the end of a life

was called a "last breath" and that was the official time of death in Bible times. (Zero verses.)

"Reasoning" backwards from his previous unsupported claims, he said that-since the end of a life

was a LAST breath, its beginning must be its FIRST breath. Therefore, before a first breath,

that is NOT a person, that is the POTENTIAL FOR a person.

Therefore, killing "that" is not murder since it isn't a person.

Zero verses.

The only verse ever used in ANY explanation is Jesus called a "holy thing." As we all know now,

it's obvious "THING" was a poor translation vpw never bothered to correct. If he HAD, he would

have had to revise doctrine he WANTED to write- that God accepted abortions, and even PREFERRED

them if they were the alternative to someone leaving "God's programs" like the Way Corps.

However, Scripture makes it obvious that vpw was wrong.

When Mary (Jesus' Mom) was visited by Gabriel, he told her that Elizabeth, her cousin,

was pregnant with a son and was in the 6th month out of 9 months, that is, beginning

the third trimester (in modern terminology.)

Luke 1:41

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"

Luke 1:44

"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

(Greek word 'brephos', which is also rendered "infant" or "young child" elsewhere.)

So, since John was not born yet, he was considered a babe/baby.

(I'm skipping any " 'babe does not mean baby thing' because I try not to get involved in discussions that

are EXCEPTIONALLY stupid.)

What month was he at?

Well, according to Gabriel, 6 months.

Luke 1:36.

"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

So, John the Baptist, at 6 months if not sooner, was considered a baby, which is some 3 months before

"first breath" on the average.

That's "sometime before nine months", so that darn well IS what we know.

This should not surprise modern, medical folk.

Some of them could tell you that a child in the third trimester has a chance of survival if born

any time in the third trimester-although, obviously, the later in the trimester, the better.

They can respond, in a limited fashion, to outside stimuli. They can indicate to the mother

if they like or dislike some stimuli they are exposed to, in their limited fashion.

This should not surprise supposed Bible readers, who had access to those verses long ago

and the verses are not very technical.

This DOES surprise hardcore twi/vpw devotees, because it contradicts what they were TOLD is

the Bible's position on the subject.

Edited by WordWolf

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As for "holy thing" itself...

ctually, back in twi-timeframes, I was going verse-by-verse through the Greek on much of the New

Testament. (I had the time.) I did look at this verse, Luke 1:35. It is true that the English calls Jesus

"that holy thing". It also says "replenish" in Genesis, which has nothing to do with the Hebrew meaning

of the word, "to fill". So, we look at the Greek. The most literal Greek I got from Luke 1:35 in that

verse, from the phrase "holy thing", which was the Greek word "hagion", was "Holy One."

That's because the plural of that word, "oi hagioi", is translated as "the saints."

(My Bullinger's Critical Greek Lexicon notes that thus noun was used for "the saints" 61 times, and

"saint" in the singular once.)

This happens in the openings of several Church Epistles, like Romans 1:7, where the word "saints"

in

"to all those who are in Rome beloved of God called saints", the word "saints" is "hagiois".

So Jesus, at the time of "the Annunciation" (Gabriel visiting Mary) was referred to as a "hagios",

and I NOW am referred to as a "hagios". Either we are both a "thing" or we both are NOT.

Basic English places a noun as a person, place or thing. Since I am a person, I am not a "thing",

since I can't be both "person" and "thing" under basic definitions.

(Unless one wants to split hairs and go into different specialist vocabularies in an effort to obscure

the subject, anyway.)

Therefore, since I'm a person or a "holy one" in that expression, so was he.

That's using simple Bible cross-checking: the meaning in Luke 1:35 must agree with ALL usages in Scripture.

twi methods, used to examine twi doctrine, show twi doctrine to have horrid errors.

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You're going off on one just a little bit here, WW. Pontificating a bit too much.

This isn't doctrinal; Nero was expressing some honest concern about family that is still Waybrained Which is affecting Nero somewhat in actual or perceived parental responses and in family relationships.

Nero, rejoice in the Lord. Be lighthearted, be kind, be patient. TWI folk have plenty of rejoicing in the "Word" but have forgotten how to rejoice in the Lord - how very sad!

Edited by Twinky

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I'm sorry. But if Nero wanted to shock them into realizing they were believing something

contradictory (which he might if the timing is right), then this would be very useful.

Whether it is or whether it isn't, compassion and an open heart will be of more use

than the proverbial 2 x 4- as well as a surprise for those who are used to twi and

their heavy-handedness.

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I'm not really into debating with her about scripture - so no worries Twinky. I know nothing I say to her will change her mind anyway. I just want her to know that even if I'm not in TWI it has nothing to do with her and it doesn't mean I don't love her.

Thank you for sharing Wolf. It is good to remember things I was taught and why they were wrong. I enjoyed reading your posts.

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Are you really worried about what your son will hear Nero? He might surprise you.

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I am concerned. I think after he was born I realized I couldn't just ignore TWI. If I don't teach him to think for himself and differing viewpoints about god he might end up in TWI or some other cult.

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It takes some time to mentally put up boundaries and ignore TWI. I don't think your son will respond the same way you would to TWI chatter . . . he doesn't have your experiences and who knows what he really thinks?

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NERO!

I feel your pain. My mum is still in TWI.

The bottom line is your mom NEVER LEFT.

She just didn't like the conditions before.

In essense, she never took off the Way colored glasses. I am surprised she got through any other church service ( I guess it was more aligned with way beliefs other than mainstream religions).

She is comfortable. She wants COMMUNITY. This is what she knows. Since she isn't an independant thinker, she doesn't question the doctrine much, because it probably worked for her. It's a very ego-centric doctrine. YOU are in control. In most religions, there is a certain 'uncertainty' there, that we ARE NOT in control. Many people don't like that feeling.

She wants back the comfort of being with those who believe like her and and the control it gave her...and as long as there is no ''yelling/abuse/lawsuit/" going on, then, she'll be there.

Take heart. Just love her as your mother, and be clear that you don't believe the doctrine because it's full of holes.

Every time you bring up a ''people'' issue it can be used against you. We are all sinners. Every religion has crazy's. Every religion has problems. Every religion has doctrinal issues.

You can't change her mind, but you can change you and your reaction to her choices.

Peace,

bliss

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NERO!

I feel your pain. My mum is still in TWI.

The bottom line is your mom NEVER LEFT.

She just didn't like the conditions before.

In essense, she never took off the Way colored glasses. I am surprised she got through any other church service ( I guess it was more aligned with way beliefs other than mainstream religions).

She is comfortable. She wants COMMUNITY. This is what she knows. Since she isn't an independant thinker, she doesn't question the doctrine much, because it probably worked for her. It's a very ego-centric doctrine. YOU are in control. In most religions, there is a certain 'uncertainty' there, that we ARE NOT in control. Many people don't like that feeling.

She wants back the comfort of being with those who believe like her and and the control it gave her...and as long as there is no ''yelling/abuse/lawsuit/" going on, then, she'll be there.

Take heart. Just love her as your mother, and be clear that you don't believe the doctrine because it's full of holes.

Every time you bring up a ''people'' issue it can be used against you. We are all sinners. Every religion has crazy's. Every religion has problems. Every religion has doctrinal issues.

You can't change her mind, but you can change you and your reaction to her choices.

Peace,

bliss

I'm sorry your mom is still in TWI Bliss.

That is so true. My mother (and other TWI peeps) tell me that they were people - not the organization itself. Even though the organization itself encourages people to be awful to one another. I think telling my mom I believed in something else than her religion is what was so upsetting. In a way she is not so different from any parent who is very invested in their religion. I've seen tons of posts on different religious boards from parents horrified their kid might stop being:Mormon, catholic, baptist, or any number of other religions.

We're getting along pretty well now. I think she's calmed down.

Edited by Nero

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I feel like my, if you could call them extended family never left as well.. all of the old doctrines are still well set in place, including mark and avoid and willful ignoring. Even after they left or got kicked out years ago.

I'd rather sit here, cold, friendless in the dark than go back to what they have to offer..

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I feel like my, if you could call them extended family never left as well.. all of the old doctrines are still well set in place, including mark and avoid and willful ignoring. Even after they left or got kicked out years ago.

My mom says they don't have mark and avoid anymore - but then again she didn't think it was around when vp was in charge. He was before my time but it sounds like it was just a quieter process.

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My mom says they don't have mark and avoid anymore - but then again she didn't think it was around when vp was in charge. He was before my time but it sounds like it was just a quieter process.

AFAIK,

it wasn't officially called that until the 1988-1989 Exodus had ended.

They were already using that terminology during the exodus, but hadn't

codified it into a named system.

However, it was an extension of things vpw did- like when he just

announced to a corps class the entire class was being cut, just

like that. He allowed them to all grovel and return if they

wanted, and the class continued with those that did so.

We had discussions that included that on the thread about lcm's

book worshipping vpw, "VP and Me." The thread was called

"vp and me in wonderland".

www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/8019-vp-and-me-in-wonderland/

Generally,

lcm's craziness was distillations in public of what vpw did in private.

IMHO, vpw knew he was conning people, so he covered his tracks.

lcm was conned into believing it all, so he did it openly.

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My mom says they don't have mark and avoid anymore - but then again she didn't think it was around when vp was in charge. He was before my time but it sounds like it was just a quieter process.

She's delusional. There's a thread here somewhere about them doing almost exactly that to an entire state recently. They may use different terminology now but it's exactly the same thing.

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She's delusional. There's a thread here somewhere about them doing almost exactly that to an entire state recently. They may use different terminology now but it's exactly the same thing.

Really? I didn't think they could afford to lose that many people. I want to read that thread now.

I figured they wouldn't change.

I guess it gives me some hope that if my mom is that ignorant about what's going on then maybe she isn't as involved as I thought.

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Groups (cults) like The Way rely on the ability to separate participants from non-participants. You can call it dis-fellowshipping, shunning, mark and avoid, tripping out, excommunication, yoked with unbelievers or anything you want. At its core, it's all about the same thing, creating a chasm between "us" and "them". Unless The Way has found some unique method of deviated from this common practice, I find it hard to believe it no longer happens.

Edited by waysider

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I went to church for the first time today. It was wonderful. My spouse was happy. I told my mom and she's seemed happy too. I think we've finally worked things out. Thank God!

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My mom says they don't have mark and avoid anymore - but then again she didn't think it was around when vp was in charge. He was before my time but it sounds like it was just a quieter process.

Nero,

First, my condolences about your family getting back in. I've had friends who have gone back (not many) and some that have stayed although they are not very happy. I don't have any idea why this happens but I also know people who had left the Catholic church (Church?) and have gone back because they are "kinder, gentler". It must be a comfort thing.

Concerning mark and avoid: your mom's name has probably traveled up and down the Way Tree numerous times and continues to do so. She is being monitored. Her fellowship coordinator may or may not be privy to this but the next level up certainly has asked how she is doing, if she's behaving, ABS'ing, serving in the "household" and has reported this info up to the next level eventually getting to HQ.

Do you know anyone that was mark and avoid? Have her bring that person to fellowship and see what alarms go off.

Yes, it is a "kinder, gentler" TWI. They were losing too many people to continue the way they were going but the religion behind the scenes is the same. VPW was an excellent con-man with charisma. He was able to build TWI into a real money-maker. LCM was (among other things)a bully with very little business sense. He shot himself and the business model in the foot often, driving people and money away. RFR is a bully too and many of the mandates that were put in place under LCM were her doing. She prefers the overreaching control but TWI continued to decline under her reign. She works behind the scene, getting others to champion her cause. If/when it fails someone else is the fall guy and she moves on to the next tactic. It just took a while to get to this "kinder, gentler" course (14 years after she took over). It took a while because she doesn't prefer it. If she preferred it it would have happened much sooner. But since her name/face is not on any direction TWI takes she is able to distance herself from the failures and take credit for the success (that which stops the decline).

TWI will never amount to anything. It's got too much baggage and is frozen in VPW's doctrine which is easily proven to be flawed. It has become a dull denomination.

Earlier you wrote "I told my mother once - isn't it better that I believe in god at all?". I suppose you have to afford her the same thing; be thankful that she believes in God and is trying to serve Him. God still works in the hearts of those who love Him.

Sorry for the ramble.

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Ooh yeah, they are watching her. When she went to a big meeting they were following her around and giving her the third degree. It was when she was first getting involved again. She thought nothing if it of course - it's what they do. She must have given them my address because I got a letter from them. Talk about feeling sick!

I may be m/a or my spouse. Or at least on some watch list. They seemed particularly interested in my family. I wasn't very quiet near my exit on how much I disliked them. They thought I was a poor influence on my brother. He lived with a pack of them and they tried to cast demons out of me and my spouse and treated us like interlopers (we were invited there).

My own mother went along with the m/a to one of her best friends. I found her son once and thought mom would like reunite with her... Nope.

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Family politics and The Way Retardnational.

I wish it got easier as time goes on. Why did the generation before us join and bring this crap into everyone's life? Maybe The Way is just a symptom of a bigger problem . . . and maybe that's where energy needs to be focused.

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Why did we get involved? Many of us had broken families...abusive pasts...no guidance...no one to care enough to warn us. ... making us vulnerable to people who loved seemingly without judgement.....who said that they had the answered for everything pertaining to life and godliness in the scriptures...any problem you have any hurt ....god could fix and they would show us how.

It was exihilerating to be in a spiritual battle striking back at satan for every cruel blow that you had endured in life...to be a part of knocking that mother f ker back down ...maybe he couldn't hurt anyone else....for a kid from a broken dysfunctional home to be promised a Heavenly Father that would never leave us or forsake us...to have a new spiritual family that would love us because spirit was thicker than water.....

It was irresistible to kids most of us teenagers who had little guidance or love in our lives.

We were naieve, so many of us and vulnerable for a variety of reasons..that vulnerability was targeted and exploited by despicable people whom used us for their own gain.

I am so so sorry for this generation bolshvik....for what we brought you guys into.

I can only look my own kids in the eye and apologize. We were deceived and are trying our best to recover.

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