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The Way Corps: Victims or Oppressors?

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Yes, the mystique of the corp continues.

Too funny. Now, you are co-opting the language that many have ascribed to wierwille.

Good try, though.

There are dozens and dozens of threads on this forum that unravel the "mystique of wierwille"

........plagiarism, stolen class, left church payroll in 1957, India lies, pfal blunders,

maggie muggins theft, subliminal stories, sexual predation, drunkenness, arrogance, etc.

The man has been exposed in all his naked glory.

You are becoming a one-trick pony, MRAP.......attacking the character of way corps.

Yeah, you've detailed a 40-year old account of your experiences with a 5th corps dude....

and how that caused disruption to your wedding day. Okay? What else? How many corps

do you actually know? Three? Five? Ten?

Why do you insist on viewing the outcome [corps person] rather than the source [wierwille]

of the problem. Is that what the military would do? Surely, the military would do an

investigation and get to the source of the problem to correct it, no?

Is every military person a Bergdahl?

.

Edited by skyrider

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It would carry a bit more weight if some partial ID were provided.

MRAP - there are often very good reasons for concealing ones identity here. Since Day One here at GSC posters have always been free to reveal or conceal at their own discretion. You of course are free to believe or disbelieve what you see written here and judge whether you have enough information. Posters are not likely to publish their own names or previous positions in TWI just to satisfy your curiosity.

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Why do you insist on viewing the outcome [corps person] rather than the source [wierwille]

of the problem.

Skyrider - for many of us, the outcome, as you call it, was all that we ever saw, Wierwille just being a guy we saw on tape during PFAL or from afar at the ROA. It is not unreasonable for a person to view Way Corps people in a bad light if that's all that was seen.

In my own experience I tended to blame individual Way Corps (and non-Corps) twig leaders & such, for their behavior at the time, but from the vantage point of many years later I see that it was a bit more complex than that. Wierwille was indeed the source of the evil, but individuals still had free will to act ethically or not.

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Skyrider - for many of us, the outcome, as you call it, was all that we ever saw, Wierwille just being a guy we saw on tape during PFAL or from afar at the ROA. It is not unreasonable for a person to view Way Corps people in a bad light if that's all that was seen.

In my own experience I tended to blame individual Way Corps (and non-Corps) twig leaders & such, for their behavior at the time, but from the vantage point of many years later I see that it was a bit more complex than that. Wierwille was indeed the source of the evil, but individuals still had free will to act ethically or not.

Yeah, sure....I can concede your point.

BUT.....this is now 2016. So, when MRAP continues to go from thread to thread on his disdain

for corps, I'm simply trying to get him to connect the dots. It's not really that hard, is it?

We're no longer in the "dark ages" of 1976.

The internet is here.

Sure, individuals still have free will.....but try this hypothesis:

1) If an incompetent doctor botches a surgery.......are all doctors bad?

2) If a police officer covers up a crime...........are all police officers corrupt?

3) If a dog kennel owner hits a savage dog..........are all kennel owners mean to dogs?

In my first semester in college, I took Sociology 101.

One of the first lessons was "Avoid Stereotyping Everyone into One Category."

Individuals are way more intricate, diversified and complex than lump assumptions.

.

Edited by skyrider

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This is a bit of a tangent regarding viewing the source.

There is a commonly held belief that being in the Way Corps gave participants the opportunity to learn at the the teachers feet (or however that saying goes). I'm sure that was the case for maybe the first or second Corps but, as it got bigger and bigger, that concept became a pipe dream.

By the time I got to FellowLaborers in 1975 there were 50 of us. True, we saw the limb leader every day at dinner for 1/2 an hour but, other than that, we only saw him once a week at our weekly FL night, as he stood at the podium to "teach". More often than not, the "teaching" was nothing more than a butt chewing for what was perceived to be our endless shortfalls. Yes, you could schedule an appointment to speak with him in private if you felt the need. Do you have any concept of how inconvenient that was, given our housing was probably about 15 miles from limb HQ and our schedules were booked from 6:00 AM until midnight? And, the Way Corps was an infinitely larger scale operation.

International HQ was less than hour away by air. Wierwille had a plane. We had a small airport about 15 minutes away that could have handled it easily. I was in the program for 2 years, graduated and went back for a third year. (I've told the story here before.) That's 3 years total. Do you know how many times Wierwille visited our program in those 3 years? Think of a goose and the shape of the eggs it lays. Yeah, never.

So, please, put to rest the idea that people in the programs had opportunity to learn at the teachers feet. On a very limited basis, there may have been a kernel of truth in the early days. Mostly, though, it was just a hyped up sales gimmick to lure in the naive.

edit: In a small sense, we were like soldiers. We weren't consumed with wining the war. We were just trying to stay alive for another day. Wierwille devised the battle plan. He was "the source".

Edited by waysider

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. . .

So, please, put to rest the idea that people in the programs had opportunity to learn at the teachers feet. On a very limited basis, there may have been a kernel of truth in the early days. Mostly, though, it was just a hyped up sales gimmick to lure in the naive.

A similar tactic is the corn field analogy. The rows of corn in the middle of a field are more protected from the elements by the outer rows and therefore grow taller and stronger with better yield, (that's just the analogy, if that's a fact I don't know). So the idea is that moving closer to the center of more believers, such as a root locale or going Way D, shields you from "the world" and gives you a better environment to grow. Instead of leadership, the larger group of believers was the draw. (And pointing at leader as bogus is easy, pointing a group of people that changes individuals out over time is much more difficult.)

And you, do want to be a better person, don't you?

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A similar tactic is the corn field analogy. The rows of corn in the middle of a field are more protected from the elements by the outer rows and therefore grow taller and stronger with better yield, (that's just the analogy, if that's a fact I don't know). So the idea is that moving closer to the center of more believers, such as a root locale or going Way D, shields you from "the world" and gives you a better environment to grow. Instead of leadership, the larger group of believers was the draw. (And pointing at leader as bogus is easy, pointing a group of people that changes individuals out over time is much more difficult.)

And you, do want to be a better person, don't you?

Yeah.....that analogy works.

Or.....the yak analogy wherein the young and feeble are inside the circle

while the old bull yaks face their horns outward to thwart off attacks.

Problem is.......all the "weak in the middle" see is a bunch of a$$es.

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Corps (and really not just Corps) were part of a system. One person can be influenced and manipulated by numerous Corps, each acting independently. An individual can be abused "by a thousand cuts" so to speak. (not counting VPW), Can any one person be responsible for that?

An individual Corps can be held responsible for choosing to part of the system, accepting and applying VPW-doctrine. Perpetuating wrong, day after day.

At some point I think a victim is fooled too many times to honestly be the victim anymore. That's something that can't be applied equally across the board, IMO.

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Sky - good points, but I guess since I was kind of a knucklehead when I came to GSC, I'm cutting him some slack. It takes some of us longer than others

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Yeah, it's both. I can even see LCM as a victim to some extent.

It's like the abused/abuser cycle though. The victims of oppression are in turn oppressors given the opportunity.

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Well, that was alot more successfull than I had imagined. Yup, sure got some hair on end and raised an ire on the corp faithfull. You see though, you are attacking me and still not answering the question/s asked on the forum thread topic: you all are off thread.

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Well, that was alot more successfull than I had imagined. Yup, sure got some hair on end and raised an ire on the corp faithfull. You see though, you are attacking me and still not answering the question/s asked on the forum thread topic: you all are off thread.

Seriously? Who's attacking you and how did you arrive at that opinion? The question has been answered several times in different ways.

Topics will naturally weave in and out of focus as discussions progress. The most problematic off topic posts are the ones that intentionally attempt to derail the thread. If you have a problem with something drifting too far off topic, the proper thing to do is contact a moderator.

Lengthy discussion of the discussion itself (meta discussion), rather than the topic, is also detrimental to the flow of a thread.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

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Seriously? Who's attacking you and how did you arrive at that opinion? The question has been answered several times in different ways.

Topics will naturally weave in and out of focus as discussions progress. The most problematic off topic posts are the ones that intentionally attempt to derail the thread. If you have a problem with something drifting too far off topic, the proper thing to do is contact a moderator.

Lengthy discussion of the discussion itself (meta discussion), rather than the topic, is also detrimental to the flow of a thread.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Perhaps it's just MRAP's victim mentality. Maybe digging for the answers in an extensive database of existing threads is too much work for him. And if he doesn't get direct replies in explicit enough detail, then we're oppressing him?

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I intend no disrespect, what I have seen lacking on this thread is any actual "testimonial" from corp vets as to their being either a victim or an oppresor. It would carry a bit more weight if some partial ID were provided.

I have made it well known my WOW status and waysider has made no bones about his Fellow Laborers affiliation but there are so many posters on GSC that are done so in the shaddows, the ellusion of inner circle knowledge about twi.

It appears that past corp folk want to live in the shaddows, providing minimal personal info but yet, speaking from a pulpit of authority. I only think that those corp folk are ashamed and don't want to be identified; I most ashuredly understand that reasoning, yet, I also find that quite absurd: honesty on one part and mystery on the other.

Frankly, I see this thread that addresses internal GSC matters as a step towards more enlightenment but also think that the intent of the thread will not be accomplished. I don't think there is some sort of mysterious code of silence but why all the silence, a deafening silence.

Yes, the mystique of the corp continues.

Jesus, dude, really? No one here is compelled to provide verifying personal information. You know how internet forums work right? You don't have to believe any of this, think what ever you want.

This thread poses a false dichotomy. It's not either/or. To me that seems self evident. I could give you personal examples of both, but what is the point?

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. . . I most ashuredly understand that reasoning, yet, I also find that quite absurd: honesty on one part and mystery on the other.

. . .

Maybe break this point down a bit. Maybe it won't look so absurd after further investigation.

Our minds by nature look for patterns and irregularities. Biologically, that's their job. It's a tool to be aware of and learn to master it's use.

In The Way, IMO, we were taught, conditioned, shown by example, to immediately and aggressively jump to conclusions and defend that position whenever our minds notice something like what you've pointed out in your post.

edited for grammar

Edited by Bolshevik

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Jesus, dude, really? No one here is compelled to provide verifying personal information. You know how internet forums work right? You don't have to believe any of this, think what ever you want.

This thread poses a false dichotomy. It's not either/or. To me that seems self evident. I could give you personal examples of both, but what is the point?

The point is nuance. The point is helping people see that it isn't either/or. The point is helping each other recognize that Corps grads are people, not a caricature.

I'm not saying we've been unfair to Corps at GSC. I'm not really saying anything. I'm asking. If you don't want to answer, don't. But to call the thread a false dichotomy actually misses the point, in my opinion.

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It's a fluid state of being. Almost no one experienced simply one or the other and stayed around The Way for any length of time. Recognizing that and how those states of being influenced your life is an important part of personal growth.

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The point is nuance.

Well....if nuance [shades of difference] is the point, then.....

1) What about corps spouse? Not really corps, but association by marriage......were they victims/oppressors?

2) What about advanced class grads? Did they take the opportunity to leverage and oppress others?

3) What about fellow laborers? Marching orders to conform and oppress others around them?

4) What about college division? Did the stuff they learned at Emporia oppress and ensnare?

5) What about pfal grads? Did they go home at Christmas and browbeat their parents and siblings?

How much nuance do you want in this dialogue?

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Well....if nuance [shades of difference] is the point, then.....

1) What about corps spouse? Not really corps, but association by marriage......were they victims/oppressors?

2) What about advanced class grads? Did they take the opportunity to leverage and oppress others?

3) What about fellow laborers? Marching orders to conform and oppress others around them?

4) What about college division? Did the stuff they learned at Emporia oppress and ensnare?

5) What about pfal grads? Did they go home at Christmas and browbeat their parents and siblings?

How much nuance do you want in this dialogue?

I would think "yes, not all, but yes" to all your questions.

Involvement with a cult at any level is a poor decision.

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I would think "yes, not all, but yes" to all your questions.

Involvement with a cult at any level is a poor decision.

Yep...... :eusa_clap:

Now, we are approaching critical thinking liftoff.

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As much nuance as you want to entertain. I've got no stake in the answer.

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I've said it before on this thread...in any category or "rung on the ladder" it depended on the individual the degree to which they could be a victim or oppressor or somewhere in between. Surely there was enough variety to demonstrate that there is no one-size-fits all description. The degree to which a person who was inclined to be an "oppressor" actually was able tp act oppressively depended on the degree of authority that they had within the TWI structure. As a WOW, we could all be jackasses to one another, but it was only the WOW coordinator who could do it "officially". In a twig setting anyone could be judgemental and nosy about the details of others' lives, but only the limb coordinator could mark and avoid you...etc, etc.

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I never asked for name, rank, serial number and bank account number with password. I only expected corp or not and what corp you were in, that Roman numeral like a super bowl: that would explain outa the shadows to me and anyone else where the mind set was, especially if you were in an early corp and sitting at the feet of the "teacher".

Evidently this thread has touched a whole lotta nerves and since I painted that target on my back, I became low hanging fruit.

Is it possible to go back to the first posting on this thread and address the question/s raised - some of you have actually done that but only a few.

I suppose I can understand the reason/s to keep annominity and like I said on another thread, I can get a 70% passing grade on picking out the corp posters. Most of the corp folk here on GSC are late rather than early corp; my experiences were with early corp so, in thinking on that fact, I have grouped you late corp folks in with the earlier ones. DWBH or someone else pointed out how the corp numbers had increase almost exponetially - guess the feet of the "teacher" would have to be a size 37 to accommodate all the later corp. Anyway I look at it, corp folk eventually tip their hand - it's an ego thing. Hey, I'm not dissing on corp folk for having an ego, they earned it but not the right to other crap they imposed on folks.

Yes, I will always have a distrust for folks in the corp: at least now maybe I should be more trustfull of later corp.

All my diatrod aside, folks are not answering the original thread question/s. Yes-yes, you can go after me and give the appearance of posting an answer. Even stupid little me and others can see through that lame escape to the posed question's. Why not just answer the question/s or duct tape the key board.

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Anyway I look at it, corp folk eventually tip their hand - it's an ego thing.

lol...

good for a laugh, if nothing else.

(but not all will, just so you know... some ego's can eventually be tamed or suppressed or caged or something. others evidently can't.)

besides, if you weren't vpw, there was always someone that one up'd on you.

the sooner you learned to deal with it and not let it (i.e., egonomia) get to you or distort you too much, the better off you were (or are.) no matter which end of the donkey you're facing.

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...TWI is an institution. That is, it is an organization with a structure. I think a majority of us got involved in TWI out of a genuine hunger and thirst for righteousness. Unfortunately, we came to an organization that had its own agenda. Those who wanted to go WOW or Corps did so, I think, out of a genuine desire to serve. But "service" was defined by TWI, and especially in the case of those who went Corps, those who wanted to serve became an arm of the organization.

Understanding that we are each ultimately responsible for the things we choose to do, at what point to we stop looking at Corps as "marks" and "victims" of TWI's agenda and start looking at them as enablers, facilitators and perpetrators of it?...

You make a lot of good points here. When I first got involved I had a genuine hunger to find truth; and I went WOW and joined the Family Corps out of a genuine desire to serve. But the way I see it now – what I thought I was doing and what I actually accomplished were two different things.

It's similar to the experience of Tom Cruise's character in the movie Oblivion – a post-apocalyptic sci-fi film, Cruise plays a technician who supports and protects the generators that produce power for all of humanity relocating to Saturn's moon since the earth is no longer habitable – the aftermath of a war with aliens; it is only later that he finds out his memory was wiped, he's been fed a bunch of lies and is actually helping the extraterrestrial invaders suck the earth dry of its resources. Maybe not as visually dramatic as the movie Oblivion, but TWI's insidious process to re-purpose an individual is for real and it works!

When I think of TWI nowadays I usually think of three roles: predator, facilitator, or victim. Over the course of my twelve year involvement - my conscience, my critical and creative thinking skills, my emotions, my logic, my values, my concept of who I am were so worked over by them (both directly and indirectly - and way too complicated to explain here) in order to make me into the best Way believer.

In some ways it can be viewed as a slow and subtle shift from victim to facilitator. But maybe I still had some desire for truth and service so I never developed a taste for ruthlessly exploiting others. I'm glad I got out during the commotion of Passing of the Patriarch – who knows how much longer such noble qualities would have warded off the overtures of predators.

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