Undertow - Escaping from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, So_crates said:

To get a clue, read 1984.

That story effectively shows how the NORMAL process of language evolution can be fed steroids by LARGE GOVERNMENT for great evil.

I was talking about normal, slow evolution, that starts in small groups and rarely ascends to the majority usage.

You need to study how dictionaries are made and edited.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mike

[So_crates]

2 minutes ago, Mike said:

I do not know what you are referring to here.

If you give me a few more details and a few key words I can find it in the transcript of the class.

I know for sure that VPW taught that the revelation of the mystery was NOT all at once for the Apostle Paul.  He said that was an evolution of revelation there.   That seems to contradict your memory of the class that you posted.

What you posted does not compute for me at all.

Are you sure it was the foundational class that you heard this?

 

I believe it was when the person was told to go to Saul in Acts. Saint Vic said that's how you know it's from God, it's complete unlike psychic who give incomplete information.

I thought you studied PLAF for 20 years. And you don't remember that?

[So_crates]

59 minutes ago, Mike said:

That story effectively shows how the NORMAL process of language evolution can be fed steroids by LARGE GOVERNMENT for great evil.

Or language can be fed steroids by cults with a hidden agenda for great evil.

59 minutes ago, Mike said:

I was talking about normal, slow evolution, that starts in small groups and rarely ascends to the majority usage.

And Nate was probably talking about cults with a hidden agenda. So you were wrong for giving him guff.

59 minutes ago, Mike said:

You need to study how dictionaries are made and edited.

You need to stop trying to make reality fit your theories and look objectively at reality and make your theories fit reality.

Edited July 24, 2023 by So_crates

[Mike]

5 minutes ago, So_crates said:

I believe it was when the person was told to go to Saul in Acts. Saint Vic said that's how you know it's from God, it's complete unlike psychic who give incomplete information.

I thought you studied PLAF for 20 years. And you don't remember that?

It was the collaterals, and far less the transcript, that I focused most on for those 20 years.

Just to be clear, do you mean when Paul (Saul) was blinded and went to get healed by Ananias?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mike

[So_crates]

Just now, Mike said:

It was the collaterals that I focused most on for those 20 years.

Just to be clear, do you mean when Paul was blinded and went to get healed by Ananias?

You guessed 'er, chester.

[Nathan_Jr]

6 minutes ago, So_crates said:

complete

He didn't mean complete the way you or I or billions of others would use it. Not today. Not in 1967. Not in 90 CE.

Somewhere in the collaterals there must be victor's own private definition of complete.

[So_crates]

1 minute ago, Nathan_Jr said:

He didn't mean complete the way you or I or billions of others would use it. Not today. Not in 1967. Not in 90 CE.

Somewhere in the collaterals there must be victor's own private definition of complete.

He probably meant parallel.

[Nathan_Jr]

Either the YourWalk+TheBible+ChristInYou+YourBelieving says what it means and means what it says, or it does not. 

 

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

There is no way the Bible could be untangled by ORDINARY sense knowledge research.  God had to step in to give enough revelation to get the ball rolling on such a massive untangling project.

There is nothing to untangle. Just open it and read it. The Bible is pretty straightforward...the so called research was necessary for the Bible to say what victor paul wierwille wanted it to say thus his phony research.

[So_crates]

3 minutes ago, OldSkool said:

There is nothing to untangle. Just open it and read it. The Bible is pretty straightforward...the so called research was necessary for the Bible to say what victor paul wierwille wanted it to say thus his phony research.

Most of what Saint Vic wanted to say lead to control

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, So_crates said:

Most of what Saint Vic wanted to say lead to control

Yessir.

[OldSkool]

48 minutes ago, Mike said:

Neither you nor the OED can forbid anyone from re-defining a word for use in a small group.   Trying to forbid me or VPW in this reveals your weak and defective understanding of the whole ball game.

No there is nothing to stop you except scripture absolutely forbids this sort of thing. But what do you and VPW care about that?

No concern...entire Bibles have been rewritten, but I hope you are prepared to take your place amongst those who are God's enemies. You have chosen your company.

Edited July 24, 2023 by OldSkool

[waysider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

That story effectively shows how the NORMAL process of language evolution can be fed steroids by LARGE GOVERNMENT for great evil.

It seems you have either forgotten the primary theme or weren't paying close attention the first time you read it. I spent 20 years studying the Cliff Notes.

[Nathan_Jr]

2 hours ago, penworks said:

Yes, there was an OED in the research room.

I heard my fellowship commander throw a lot of snarky, condescending jabs at the KJV translators. I’ve heard the same from off-shooters. Of course, the jabs were delivered with exasperated, patronizing sighs. 

The OED can help anyone discover why the translators made those decisions. English was different at that time. One must understand what words meant during the Elizabethan period to understand the KJV.

We shouldn’t anachronistically project modern usage onto 16th century England - not if we are interested in scientific precision and mathematical exactness.

Throughly and study are two great examples of what I’m talking about.

 

Charlene, did anyone ever explain to Victor his mishandling of Elizabethan English? If so, what was his response?

 

 

 

 

 

 

(I love reading the KJV. It’s beautiful. However, I prefer a modern, literal version like the NASB for understanding, study.)

[OldSkool]

46 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

(I love reading the KJV. It’s beautiful. However, I prefer a modern, literal version like the NASB for understanding, study.)

I go the opposite route since many modern translations have some pretty heavy error, deletions, word changes, etc...I use the older versions...a good case in point is to look at 2 Thess 2:3 in the Geneva Bible and Matthews Bible because they both translate falling away as a departing first, which is a game changer.

 

https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/53002001/KJV1611/GNV/MAT

[Twinky]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I heard my fellowship commander throw a lot of snarky, condescending jabs at the KJV translators. I’ve heard the same from off-shooters. Of course, the jabs were delivered with exasperated, patronizing sighs. 

 

You only have to look at the credentials and breadth of knowledge of those who translated the "KJV" (=AV).

And then the credentials and breadth of knowledge of "fellowship commanders."  Yeah.  Really well qualified to make snarky, condescending jabs.  About as well qualified as a flea telling an elephant it can't tread somewhere.

[Charity]

On 7/21/2023 at 6:32 AM, penworks said:

By the way, one thing I like about The End of Biblical Studies is the well researched information about the many Bible companies, university classes on the Bible, and the tons of Christian churches promoting Bibles that keep the cycle of studying ancient Scriptures going to the exlusion of other writings. 

I think it's good to read a book before we criticize or discard it. 

During my post-Way journey, I learned I could actually live a good, ethical, and valualbe life without reading or staying hooked on the Bible. That's just me. I realized VPW had brainwashed me into thinking I could not live without "The Bible," (that term is meaningless because there are so many kinds of versions of Bibles there isn't just one Bible). I found I had been addicted to having a Bible be the centerpiece of my life. I let myself consider the fact that there were millions of good people over centuries and centuries who lived loving and productive lives before there were ever any Bibles in existence. 

This is not to say there aren't many good and valuable lessons found in Bibles. For myself, I just had to acknowledge what these Bibles were before I attached value to them. Finally, I stepped back and saw that Bibles are anthologies of ancient writings by men, arranged in a certain order, which can vary. So, too, does content of Bibles vary. I asked myself whether they were helpful for me today? In what way are they useful to modern man?

Just for the record, here's where I'm "at" these days:

Charlene’s Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

"I think it's good to read a book before we criticize or discard it."

I think this is true some of the times but not always.  The description written on the back of The End of Biblical Studies is a summary of the main ideas which are further explained and established by the author within its pages.  A criterion for deciding whether to read a book or not is often based on how strongly we agree or disagree with the summary given about its topic. 

After leaving twi, I did try to stay connected with God through online sources such as Kenneth Copeland at first and then a couple of the offshoots of twi.  I even tried going to a church.  I ended with giving up on wanting God in my life for decades although I still thought of Him now and then.  Last November was one of those times and when I started reading the Absent Christ thread here on GSC, I began to understand how twi’s doctrines really screwed up Christianity for me. 

While I do not understand everything the scriptures say, from what I’ve learned since last year about walking with Christ and trusting God, I can say I totally disagree with Hector Avalos’ views in his book. 

[Nathan_Jr]

1 hour ago, OldSkool said:

I go the opposite route since many modern translations have some pretty heavy error, deletions, word changes, etc...I use the older versions...a good case in point is to look at 2 Thess 2:3 in the Geneva Bible and Matthews Bible because they both translate falling away as a departing first, which is a game changer.

 

https://textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/53002001/KJV1611/GNV/MAT

That's fine, too. I like to look at several versions, including the Geneva. (I haven't checked out the Matthews Bible, yet.) I'm not tied to any version. I find it all very interesting, but I'm not dogmatic about any of it, as you know.

The older English versions require additional tools like the OED, if one is to understand that older English. It is helpful to understand what words meant to those living 400 years ago. The English language has changed. This is my only point.

The Greek stays the same (99% of the time), but study in 1583 carries a different meaning than it does in 2023. Going back to the Greek is important, too. Obviously? I wish I was proficient in Greek.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Nathan_Jr

[Nathan_Jr]

40 minutes ago, Twinky said:

You only have to look at the credentials and breadth of knowledge of those who translated the "KJV" (=AV).

And then the credentials and breadth of knowledge of "fellowship commanders."  Yeah.  Really well qualified to make snarky, condescending jabs.  About as well qualified as a flea telling an elephant it can't tread somewhere.

Right!

I've heard victor do the same in his "sermons/teachings."

It seems to come down to the "We know, you don't, because you've been mislead, but it's not your fault, we have the truth like it hasn't been known, and we will teach you, but hold your questions in abeyance..." tactic.

It's an early move in the indoctrination to separate the seeker from reality.

"Nothing is real. You've been deceived. Stay with us for your protection. Forsake your friends, family and discernment. No need to even think for yourself anymore. We will do it for you. You want those crowns, right? Ok. Good. Keep those questions in abeyance."

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Nathan_Jr said:

That's fine, too. I like to look at several versions, including the Geneva. (I haven't checked out the Matthews Bible, yet.) I'm not tied to any version. I find it all very interesting, but I'm not dogmatic about any of it, as you know.

The older English versions require additional tools like the OED, if one is to understand that older English. It is helpful to understand what words meant to those living 400 years ago. The English language has changed. This is my only point.

The Greek stays the same (99% of the time), but study in 1583 carries a different meaning than it does in 2023. Going back to the Greek is important, too. Obviously? I wish I was proficient in Greek.

Ive learned to become the same way over the years. Its interesting that when you look into things a bit closer regarding VPW his entire premise was complete BS. That scripture was in some sort of unintelligible mess and he needed to straighten it out...talk about hyper-arrogance. Basically, the translators were scholars and not fake scholars like VPW. That doesnt make the translators or the translations or versions perfect but God needed no help from VPW,

The Matthews Bible is the Tyndale Bible with the Old Testament completed by one of Tyndale's understudies after Tyndale was martyred, using Tyndale's notes and also the books that Tyndale had translated at the time of his death. I value it more than the AV1611 which has it's own cultic following that I am careful to avoid like the plague...yes there really is a AV1611 only movement out there and...ya... 

Edited July 24, 2023 by OldSkool

[Rocky]

1 hour ago, Charity said:

A criterion for deciding whether to read a book or not is often based on how strongly we agree or disagree with the summary given about its topic.

Would it be fair to infer from your post that you intend to not read the book in question?

Might you decide someday to read it? 

 

[Charity]

1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Would it be fair to infer from your post that you intend to not read the book in question?

Might you decide someday to read it? 

 

Hi Rocky, yes to your first question and unlikely to your second, but it is an interesting question.  I can think of only one exception and that would be if God leads me to read it for some purpose of His.  Not trying to be sanctimonious - just my personal reason concerning myself.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Charity

[Charity]

On 7/21/2023 at 2:22 AM, Rocky said:

Nor am I either interested in impressing Professor Avalos or demanding or even recommending anyone choose sides. I don't necessarily view it as an either or proposition. OTOH, as it says somewhere in II Corinthians, only God knows what's in the heart of another human. 

I can see the practicality of Alan Watts' quote about facing the fear of the unknown.  In one way, it reminds me of being in a relationship with God.  

Christians are challenged by God to face our fears.  He wants to push our self-made boundaries, leap out of our personal comfort zones and accept what life puts before us.  When we as His much-loved children accept these challenges and are sincerely curious in seeing how He wants to work in us to overcome them, this curiosity will open us up to an infinite stream of His possibilities (Phil 2:13, Eph 3:20).  

[Rocky]

Moral Benefits of Wisdom

2 My son, if you accept my words
    and store up my commands within you,
² turning your ear to wisdom
    and applying your heart to understanding—
³ indeed, if you call out for insight
    and cry aloud for understanding,
⁴ and if you look for it as for silver
    and search for it as for hidden treasure,
⁵ then you will understand the fear of the Lord
    and find the knowledge of God.

[chockfull]

On 7/21/2023 at 4:32 AM, penworks said:

By the way, one thing I like about The End of Biblical Studies is the well researched information about the many Bible companies, university classes on the Bible, and the tons of Christian churches promoting Bibles that keep the cycle of studying ancient Scriptures going to the exlusion of other writings. 

I think it's good to read a book before we criticize or discard it. 

During my post-Way journey, I learned I could actually live a good, ethical, and valualbe life without reading or staying hooked on the Bible. That's just me. I realized VPW had brainwashed me into thinking I could not live without "The Bible," (that term is meaningless because there are so many kinds of versions of Bibles there isn't just one Bible). I found I had been addicted to having a Bible be the centerpiece of my life. I let myself consider the fact that there were millions of good people over centuries and centuries who lived loving and productive lives before there were ever any Bibles in existence. 

This is not to say there aren't many good and valuable lessons found in Bibles. For myself, I just had to acknowledge what these Bibles were before I attached value to them. Finally, I stepped back and saw that Bibles are anthologies of ancient writings by men, arranged in a certain order, which can vary. So, too, does content of Bibles vary. I asked myself whether they were helpful for me today? In what way are they useful to modern man?

Just for the record, here's where I'm "at" these days:

Charlene’s Post-Cult Nonreligious Alternative | Charlene L. Edge (charleneedge.com)

One of the things for me post Way journey that opened up seeing how egotistical the fundamentalist view we had was having a couple of close friends from other religions.  A work colleague who is Muslim I spoke with about beliefs over the course of about 5 years.  I saw him become involved with and give a lot of time and money to a charity placing orphans from another country with families in US.  I saw the good done in his life and knew God had to recognize it.  On the other hand most Christians I knew would never do anything like that.  

Faith is supposed to motivate ourselves toward the best version of ourselves possible.  

Yet what I saw in the Way was other types of motivation.  Fear, lust, selfishness, power.  Thoughts and attitudes which galvanized evil not good.  For many it was not the best but their worst version of themselves emerging.

Another friend I have spoken with over a decade plus about faith is a devout Chan Buddhist raised from birth.  The more I embrace of his faith the more he is drawn to Christ.  I wonder if that’s a Zen energy type of thing.

Anyway where I am at is if someone finds a spark that draws out the best version of themselves I support them pursuing it.  And Christians can more reflect Christ pretty much always for sure.

To strive for betterment is a worthy goal.