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OldSkool
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12 hours ago, chockfull said:

t's all good - we all work out our own salvation by obeying God with respect and reverence.

Sounds exactly like you're salvation is dependent upon obeying God (with respect and reverence.)

Just how is that any different from what Israel had before, with the law?

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Serving God out of reverence and love looks a LOT like serving God out of necessity. In either case,  you'll be respectful to Him and do what He says.  The main difference would be the motivation, but in either case you should be serving, which would look exactly the same either way. In one case, because one is saved and respects and reveres, and in the other case, because one respects and reveres, and has confidence He's the horse to back and so his side is the saved one.

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9 hours ago, TLC said:

Sounds exactly like you're salvation is dependent upon obeying God (with respect and reverence.)

Just how is that any different from what Israel had before, with the law?

Hey TLC.  I have no idea.  I was just quoting a Philippians verse that seemed appropriate to the moment.  I guess that salvation word also means wholeness.  So not just being saved but the rest of the deal through life.  I sort through all that with the Father.  I guess it doesn't seem as effective with an attitude of disrespect and irreverence.  That aspect probably wasn't any different with Israel.  .

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On 5/22/2018 at 3:49 AM, Rocky said:

Two entirely different issues. You are a person, theoretically (and hopefully in a practical way also) endowed with free will and a sense of right and wrong. You choose the direction of your life to a certain degree (you choose how you respond to what life throws at you).

The R and R RailRoad purports to believe it can build something different without changing the underlying concepts it broke away from.

What's that definition of insanity the great physicist (and philosopher) Albert Einstein (may have) articulated? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Though I'm in my 60s, I'm still as curious as I was as a younger man. It's just that now, instead of falling prey to a religious demagogue, I like to study history. If I had a lick of sense when I was actually going to college (graduated with a BS degree in accounting at age 31) I would have pursued a graduate degree in history to develop a broader understanding of humankind.

Well that last paragraph may be rambling but that's how I think and look at the R and R folks. Taxi, I have no doubt on what you describe about the RR folks doing things differently. But the results ultimately (key word, ultimately) will be the same. History repeats itself.

The curious try to understand why things happen the way they do.

Nice summation.  The RnR Railroad.  For sure.  Same train, same rails, different vision.  LOL.

"The only thing we learn from history is that mankind learns nothing from history"

Stephen R Donaldson

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I really should check in here more often.  This thread answers some questions I've had about some vague Facebook posts from friends still in Way World.  

Now I know why they suddenly seemed to grow some proverbial balls/ovaries...  they didn't suddenly realize TWI was rotten from the root.  They just had another place they could go.

So many people who I used to idolize for being such strong, faithful believers.  They were good people, wanting to do good and serve God.  But they were devoid of critical thinking, and easily led.  Now they just went with another pack of wolves pretending to be shepherds.

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1 hour ago, JavaJane said:

So many people who I used to idolize for being such strong, faithful believers.  They were good people, wanting to do good and serve God.  But they were devoid of critical thinking, and easily led.  Now they just went with another pack of wolves pretending to be shepherds.

An unfortunate trend I am now seeing - they hold VPW on a pedestal.  I was only a little surprised, because of all the things share here and on another thread, Offshoot of an Offshoot.  But still quite disappointed.

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17 hours ago, Taxidev said:

An unfortunate trend I am now seeing - they hold VPW on a pedestal.  I was only a little surprised, because of all the things share here and on another thread, Offshoot of an Offshoot.  But still quite disappointed.

As i understand, the leadership of rnr consider the current state of affairs in twi (led by rosie n donna) wrong on many levels, but the "package" put together by wierwolf is solid. The leadership of rnr lack a central focus, and are figuring out how to move onwards from twi. Many of them didnt expect to get marked and avoided and are scrambling. They basically follow the same model as twi, they even do phone hookups. It seems to me that they are trying to pick up the pieces but dont understand how deeply the damage of an abusive cult has affected them. If you dont recognize the problem you cant fix it. They dont see the problems in wierwille theology, they dont see that selling classes isnt working or that perhaps webex is better than a live telephone hookup. 

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3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

As i understand, the leadership of rnr consider the current state of affairs in twi (led by rosie n donna) wrong on many levels, but the "package" put together by wierwolf is solid. The leadership of rnr lack a central focus, and are figuring out how to move onwards from twi. Many of them didnt expect to get marked and avoided and are scrambling. They basically follow the same model as twi, they even do phone hookups. It seems to me that they are trying to pick up the pieces but dont understand how deeply the damage of an abusive cult has affected them. If you dont recognize the problem you cant fix it. They dont see the problems in wierwille theology, they dont see that selling classes isnt working or that perhaps webex is better than a live telephone hookup. 

OS, perhaps they don't see, because they choose not too.:asdf:

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On 5/27/2018 at 9:19 AM, OldSkool said:

It seems to me that they are trying to pick up the pieces but dont understand how deeply the damage of an abusive cult has affected them.

Very insightful!

I go on many of those phone hookups and, mostly, they are very good Word-based teachings, usually some topic the teacher had been working.  But that seems to be all there is from the large group.

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1 hour ago, Taxidev said:

Very insightful!

I go on many of those phone hookups and, mostly, they are very good Word-based teachings, usually some topic the teacher had been working.  But that seems to be all there is from the large group.

To be clear, i wish them the best. I went to one of their fellowships about a month ago. It was a fun time. If i was closer i would go more often. Im still surprised that many in this group stood up to rosie. 

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13 hours ago, Taxidev said:

Very insightful!

I go on many of those phone hookups and, mostly, they are very good Word-based teachings, usually some topic the teacher had been working.  But that seems to be all there is from the large group.

So, in other words...........you go, you sit, they teach and then, you leave.

Is there anything else besides them teaching?

  • Any group-research sessions?
  • Any Q&A out-in-the-open feedback.....without condescension/blacklisted?
  • Have they instigated the mark/avoid policy yet?
  • Any children activities or teen events?
  • How about community involvement of any kind?
  • If I give them my hard-earned money, where does it go?

Seems to me.......that the mother-cult became so lethargic that "teaching" was the gold-standard for "living/doing the word."

I don't know.........but this phone hook-up stuff seems so pathetic and generic and impersonal.

 

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1 hour ago, skyrider said:

So, in other words...........you go, you sit, they teach and then, you leave.

Is there anything else besides them teaching?

  • Any group-research sessions?
  • Any Q&A out-in-the-open feedback.....without condescension/blacklisted

The fellowship i went to was an open affair, meaning someone had volunteered to teach and therd was an open forum for folks to give feedback and even discuss any disagreements. They didnt ask for money or pass a stupid horn around. I dont think there is too much to be marked n avoided from. At present theres mostly a,loose network of fellowships, and there is no centralized command center yet. 

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4 hours ago, OldSkool said:

The fellowship i went to was an open affair, meaning someone had volunteered to teach and therd was an open forum for folks to give feedback and even discuss any disagreements. They didnt ask for money or pass a stupid horn around. I dont think there is too much to be marked n avoided from. At present theres mostly a,loose network of fellowships, and there is no centralized command center yet. 

Sounds marginally better than the Way.  If I was leaving the Way right now and had to choose where to go, this would be better than a Way fellowship.  I guess when you're just leaving you're in that vulnerable spot again where you don't trust anyone or anything to do with religion, God, church, whatever that people are trying to sell you.  You've been indoctrinated against mainstream Christianity with all of VP's teachings on how all denominations were run by seed men.  So at first it's really hard to fit in with a church family, especially one who has been "believing the trinity" for decades.  So in that state, this probably would be among your best options.  Plus, there's all the "prosperity gospel" BS to deal with in mainstream Christianity, as well as other politics, etc.  Even all the worship services have changed dramatically to a more modern format.  You don't know any of the songs to sing because the only ones you know were out of "Sing Along the Way" for decades.  The greeters with coffee and donuts seem like aliens.

But to me here is the rub with mainstream Christianity.  Whatever else is controversial in the Bible, the teaching on Jesus as head of the body in Corinthians is not.  So if Jesus is head of the body, not Rosalie, or Jean Yves, or some combination of Moynihan plus Horney, then the church I am attending may be located down the arm, or the leg, or whatever.  But it certainly isn't the whole body.  But with cults you have the Moynihans the Horneys, the Rosalies and the Jean Yves all acting as if they were the head of the body.  Or in this state Moynihan and Horney are too confused to fall into that role, but over time it will migrate that way.  Look at every other splinter.  Look at Christian Family Fellowship for a model of how this works.  This is the model of how to become an antichrist.

This is wrong.  If Paul teaches that my Lord and Savior's followers will function like a human body interacting, then that is what I will look for in his followers.  Not antichrists.

Then , when you run across a perspective like the local New Knoxville pastor (who wrote a quote about Undertow - penworks book) who speaks of building a local community where people can find healing not needing an "anointed man of God" you know he has the proper perspective.

 

Edited by chockfull
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4 hours ago, chockfull said:

Sounds marginally better than the Way.  If I was leaving the Way right now and had to choose where to go, this would be better than a Way fellowship.  I guess when you're just leaving you're in that vulnerable spot again where you don't trust anyone or anything to do with religion, God, church, whatever that people are trying to sell you.  You've been indoctrinated against mainstream Christianity with all of VP's teachings on how all denominations were run by seed men.  So at first it's really hard to fit in with a church family, especially one who has been "believing the trinity" for decades.  So in that state, this probably would be among your best options.  Plus, there's all the "prosperity gospel" BS to deal with in mainstream Christianity, as well as other politics, etc.  Even all the worship services have changed dramatically to a more modern format.  You don't know any of the songs to sing because the only ones you know were out of "Sing Along the Way" for decades.  The greeters with coffee and donuts seem like aliens.

But to me here is the rub with mainstream Christianity.  Whatever else is controversial in the Bible, the teaching on Jesus as head of the body in Corinthians is not.  So if Jesus is head of the body, not Rosalie, or Jean Yves, or some combination of Moynihan plus Horney, then the church I am attending may be located down the arm, or the leg, or whatever.  But it certainly isn't the whole body.  But with cults you have the Moynihans the Horneys, the Rosalies and the Jean Yves all acting as if they were the head of the body.  Or in this state Moynihan and Horney are too confused to fall into that role, but over time it will migrate that way.  Look at every other splinter.  Look at Christian Family Fellowship for a model of how this works.  This is the model of how to become an antichrist.

This is wrong.  If Paul teaches that my Lord and Savior's followers will function like a human body interacting, then that is what I will look for in his followers.  Not antichrists.

Then , when you run across a perspective like the local New Knoxville pastor (who wrote a quote about Undertow - penworks book) who speaks of building a local community where people can find healing not needing an "anointed man of God" you know he has the proper perspective.

 

Chock, :eusa_clap:

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8 hours ago, skyrider said:

Is there anything else besides them teaching?

The large group, on occasion, will put on a large event, typically in Florida.  I haven't been to one yet, due to scheduling.  There have been, I believe, three in Florida, and one out west somewhere, I think Northern California, not positive on that one.  But their teachings are on Sunday night phone calls. 

My local group, typically we will hang out afterwards, either eat together, or play some games, or use the pool.  Now that the weather is warmer we might end up going to the park or something.  It's a pretty close group.

Any group-research sessions? None that I know of.

Any Q&A out-in-the-open feedback.....without condescension/blacklisted?  There is immediate feedback after the hookup teaching for the large group.  It has been all very positive, appreciative type feedback - what I got out if this teaching, sort of thing.  In my local group we have had some discussions on the topic that was taught, where individuals have offered insight and/or their own research on it.  It's a learning, growing experience.  No one in my local group thinks they are the expert.  It's wonderful!

Have they instigated the mark/avoid policy yet?  None.

Any children activities or teen events?  At my local group this topic has just come up.  From the large group I have heard nothing about this.

How about community involvement of any kind?  I only know about my local group, and that is on an individual basis, because we are not an organized ministry, we are just a bunch of believers in the Body of Christ.

If I give them my hard-earned money, where does it go?  They don't want your money, and they have made that abundantly clear.  They want you to give to those in need, that preferably you know of personally, or anyone else you choose, but not them.  My local group has also specified this.

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6 hours ago, chockfull said:

Whatever else is controversial in the Bible, the teaching on Jesus as head of the body in Corinthians is not.  So if Jesus is head of the body, not Rosalie, or Jean Yves, or some combination of Moynihan plus Horney, then the church I am attending may be located down the arm, or the leg, or whatever.  But it certainly isn't the whole body.

There was recently an R&R teaching on this on a Sunday call.  It was incredibly well received, got a ton of positive feedback.  I was glad about that.

Maybe they won't gravitate toward a power play like the other splinters.  That would thrill me.

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6 hours ago, chockfull said:

Sounds marginally better than the Way.  If I was leaving the Way right now and had to choose where to go, this would be better than a Way fellowship.  I guess when you're just leaving you're in that vulnerable spot again where you don't trust anyone or anything to do with religion, God, church, whatever that people are trying to sell you.  You've been indoctrinated against mainstream Christianity with all of VP's teachings on how all denominations were run by seed men.  So at first it's really hard to fit in with a church family, especially one who has been "believing the trinity" for decades.  So in that state, this probably would be among your best options.  Plus, there's all the "prosperity gospel" BS to deal with in mainstream Christianity, as well as other politics, etc.  Even all the worship services have changed dramatically to a more modern format.  You don't know any of the songs to sing because the only ones you know were out of "Sing Along the Way" for decades.  The greeters with coffee and donuts seem like aliens.

.........

 

Yeah, at first.........it seems marginally better than the Way.

But really..........the "start-up sweetness" wears off and it just becomes same old, same old. 

  • Many who went to CES for years, don't anymore. 
  • Many who went to CFF for years, don't anymore.

And, for me...........since I had bad (bossy) experiences with Moynihan, and with Fort.......I would have no interest in following their lead.  I mean, what's to follow?  Those guys were indoctrinated into the cult for nearly 50 years......and then, think they can just pick up where they left off and "lead others."  LOL

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Moynihan was WRONG in his "counsel" of the mark/avoid brother attending his sister's funeral.

.........hard-hearted to the person, lockstep loyalty to the twit-cult.

Moynihan could LEARN FROM US HERE AT GREASESPOT..............not having us learn from him.   Sheesh.

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Moneyhands only excuse at their imagined “bema” will be the same as Adolph Eichmann’s: “I was just following orders.”! Eichmann’s excuses were no more effective at averting his fate than Moneyhands’,or Fort’s, or Horney’s will be before the Lord Jesus, when all they’ll hear will be a string of “I never knew you(s)!”. Rewards for what rnr? 40 years of lying, stealing, adultery, sexual abuse, cruelty and hubris against God’s children, and malevolent, anti-Christ judgemental “lording it over” and using the saints? How about despitefully using innocent Christians to accomplish your evil, self-serving ways?? None of them can learn a single thing from GSC or Jesus. Their consciences were seared 35 years ago. What a sorry sandlot full of losers and benchwarmers. I pity the fools.

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1 hour ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Moneyhands only excuse at their imagined “bema” will be the same as Adolph Eichmann’s: “I was just following orders.”! Eichmann’s excuses were no more effective at averting his fate than Moneyhands’,or Fort’s, or Horney’s will be before the Lord Jesus, when all they’ll hear will be a string of “I never knew you(s)!”. Rewards for what rnr? 40 years of lying, stealing, adultery, sexual abuse, cruelty and hubris against God’s children, and malevolent, anti-Christ judgemental “lording it over” and using the saints? How about despitefully using innocent Christians to accomplish your evil, self-serving ways?? None of them can learn a single thing from GSC or Jesus. Their consciences were seared 35 years ago. What a sorry sandlot full of losers and benchwarmers. I pity the fools.

DWBH, I pity their children.  I know what it is like to grow-up, in a family that has mental issues.  It wasn't fun.

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3 hours ago, skyrider said:

Yeah, at first.........it seems marginally better than the Way.

But really..........the "start-up sweetness" wears off and it just becomes same old, same old. 

  • Many who went to CES for years, don't anymore. 
  • Many who went to CFF for years, don't anymore.

And, for me...........since I had bad (bossy) experiences with Moynihan, and with Fort.......I would have no interest in following their lead.  I mean, what's to follow?  Those guys were indoctrinated into the cult for nearly 50 years......and then, think they can just pick up where they left off and "lead others."  LOL

Sky, bingo!!  I knew MF years 40 years ago, and even back then, he thought his S--t, didn't stink.  What a cocky, self-righteous A--hole.  I wouldn't follow him for two seconds.  

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5 hours ago, skyrider said:

since I had bad (bossy) experiences with Moynihan, and with Fort.......I would have no interest in following their lead.

At the moment, no one is actually leading anything.  There is a core group that organizes the phone teachings, but no one is telling anyone what they should be doing.  It's refreshing, actually. 

When my friend was asked if he wanted to teach, he chose his own topic - no micromanagement.  That was great!

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7 hours ago, Taxidev said:

There was recently an R&R teaching on this on a Sunday call.  It was incredibly well received, got a ton of positive feedback.  I was glad about that.

Maybe they won't gravitate toward a power play like the other splinters.  That would thrill me.

I'm glad for the one body teaching.  I'm not optimistic about their long-term prospects of integrating in with other Christians.   My recommendation would be for those top guys to go back to school for a couple years then start a church plant with someone they meet there.  That would ensure that there is a healthy balance in a positive direction.  I seriously doubt that their egos will permit this though.  Instead of counting their years in a cult as dung like Paul did, they count it as their resume, unwilling to start at the bottom somewhere else.  IMO these are those who seek their own belly as referred to in scripture.

I read about a pastor of a large church a number of years ago that got caught doing ecstasy with a male prostitute.  He got kicked out of his position with a 6 figure payout, took a year off with the golden parachute to rehabilitate, his wife wrote a book and published it called "Why I Stayed".    Then they started another church.  He's back in action as a head pastor going right back at it. 

I think these are the types of people that are going to star in a new season of "Naked and Afraid" the TV series when Jesus Christ comes back

 

Edited by chockfull
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6 hours ago, skyrider said:

Moynihan was WRONG in his "counsel" of the mark/avoid brother attending his sister's funeral.

.........hard-hearted to the person, lockstep loyalty to the twit-cult.

Moynihan could LEARN FROM US HERE AT GREASESPOT..............not having us learn from him.   Sheesh.

sky I agree.  That one incident you pointed out of hard-hearted counsel was not an isolated one, but rather the way he operates and has his whole Way tenure as a clergyman.  

Do you know why the Sadducees were so sad?  They couldn't become top Pharisees. 

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