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The Wierwille Legacy: Who Will Write The Book?


skyrider
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1 hour ago, Mike said:

I think a lot of the crazy excessive screaming and confrontation came into TWI the early 80s as part of Athletes of the Spirit.  At that time many analogies were being made between spiritual discipline and the discipline we see developed in the military and in sports. 

In boot camps and in locker room pep talks a lot of screaming and ego humiliation are used.  

Like genuine tough love performances needing a prior mastery of tender love the same hold for this kind of tough discipline.  A little seems like it can be useful at times, but things back in the 80s got totally out of balance here.

Some of it, yes. vpw did plenty of it in the 70s in-house. It didn't just begin with AOS.   He taught lcm that the yelling was approved and recommended.  What vpw did in private, lcm did in public.   What was in the 70s was out of whack also.

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I suggest a study be done of the Princeton Theological Seminary's non-shabbiness.

Look at this from Wikipedia:

"Princeton Seminary has long been influential in theological studies, with many leading biblical scholars, theologians, and clergy among its faculty and alumni. In addition, it operates one of the largest theological libraries in the world and maintains a number of special collections,..."

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Mike, you weren't way corpse, right?

The screaming started in the WC by dictor behaving as an entitled a$$hole believing he had every right to abuse people especially in the WC. Martindale kicked it up several notches BEFORE his dancing career (AoS) but really never moderated his behavior. Of course, Martindale was eventually humbled and lost his platform.

However, as a WC outsider, the time correlation you suggested tracks with WC getting acclimated to a culture of being demanded of and then demanding of everyone else.

That is a(n im)practical outgrowth of dictor's version of "god-breathed" doctrine.
 

I see I'm not the only person who made that point.

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Just now, WordWolf said:

Some of it, yes. vpw did plenty of it in the 70s in-house. It didn't just begin with AOS.   He taught lcm that the yelling was approved and recommended.  What vpw did in private, lcm did in public.   What was in the 70s was out of whack also.

Can confirm. Lots of excessive screaming and confrontation in the FellowLaborers of Ohio program in the mid 1970's.

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1 minute ago, Mike said:

I suggest a study be done of the Princeton Theological Seminary's non-shabbiness.

Look at this from Wikipedia:

"Princeton Seminary has long been influential in theological studies, with many leading biblical scholars, theologians, and clergy among its faculty and alumni. In addition, it operates one of the largest theological libraries in the world and maintains a number of special collections,..."

You suggest a study be done because you think somehow that will legitimize Saint Vic.

How about we do a study on the Parker Brothers docterate he got from Pike Peak?

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1 hour ago, So_crates said:

Unfortunately, we in twigs were not in a boot camp or a locker room.

The Way was supposed to be a church, not a military or football team.

But vpw (who had no military experience other than watching movies and TV) wanted it like the imaginary military, where he could bark orders and everyone would fall in line.  He taught lcm, who applied his own experience as a jock which were at least realistic experiences of athletics- even if they were completely irrelevant to a Christian organization by any name.

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4 minutes ago, Mike said:

I suggest a study be done of the Princeton Theological Seminary's non-shabbiness.

Look at this from Wikipedia:

"Princeton Seminary has long been influential in theological studies, with many leading biblical scholars, theologians, and clergy among its faculty and alumni. In addition, it operates one of the largest theological libraries in the world and maintains a number of special collections,..."

Irrelevant. Fogs the issue. Nobody questioned that Princeton Theological Seminary is legit. I even posted that a few days ago.  A separate issue is how "Homiletics" is a very soft option to take in a school with many RIGOROUS programs one could take instead.  It was a legitimate Masters from a legitimate school in a subject with questionable value.

His DOCTORATE was unaccredited and not worth the paper it was printed on.  THAT is what's brought up.

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1 minute ago, WordWolf said:

But vpw (who had no military experience other than watching movies and TV) wanted it like the imaginary military, where he could bark orders and everyone would fall in line.  He taught lcm, who applied his own experience as a jock which were at least realistic experiences of athletics- even if they were completely irrelevant to a Christian organization by any name.

That's what most people miss about Saint Vic: he wanted control. Anything that gave him control he did. If he had to make up a docterate and imply he went to an Ivy League school, he did. If he had to create stories about snowstorm to legitimize his MOG status, he did.

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

I do think that the facts need to be made straight.

Okay, here is a straight fact. Princeton Theological Seminary and Princeton University are not one and the same. Whether or not Princeton Theological Seminary is a good school is completely beside the point.

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

Sounds like he was imitating Craig. A lot of new Corps would do that, even to the point of sporting a mustache similar to his at one time. I looked forward to them maturing, but it didn't happen.

Because it was not a conscious thing they were trying out. It's a social phenomenon. Modeled behavior indicates what the real beliefs of the organization are. If anything, that social "progression" tends to prove that if the god who breathed PFLAP is the true God, he/she is not a god of love.

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19 minutes ago, Mike said:

I suggest a study be done of the Princeton Theological Seminary's non-shabbiness.

Look at this from Wikipedia:

"Princeton Seminary has long been influential in theological studies, with many leading biblical scholars, theologians, and clergy among its faculty and alumni. In addition, it operates one of the largest theological libraries in the world and maintains a number of special collections,..."

Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make.

Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do.

Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters.

I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case.

Edited by Rocky
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1 hour ago, Mike said:

 

This is one of the more “on topic” posts of mine here. Part of the book on VPW should include this item for balance.

 

 

I finally found one of my “re-post pastes”  of Research Geek’s post on Pikes Peak and VBPW’s degree.  The thread he posted this on is now lost due to bandwidth issues over 10 years ago. But I can assure you my re-posts were totally accurate. If they weren’t, back then they would have been torn apart immediately on my posting. They weren’t.

 

 

For me, I’ve said theology degrees awarded to anyone mean almost nothing to me. I have great respect for the hard core degrees like Math and Physics, but it drops for humanities degrees. I just don’t care much, and never did.

 

 

For me, VPW did earn that degree as much as any other minister or priest, and I happily called him Doctor Wierwille all the time, BASED ON his performance for me and my needs.  I need not check out his degree any more than that for my own interests.

 

 

But Research Geek did investigated that degree by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He was one of the very few posters back then that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold. He was very respected by all here (me included) as fair minded and smart.

 

 

Originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002 with my bold fonts:
 

 

***

 

 

“I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.

“The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.

So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.”

 

 

 

 

 

***

VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.

 

 

 

Recapping.

A) "Princeton" rather than "Princeton Theological Seminary" is a rather specific mistake. I'd like to see a link to the original post to see if RG really posted it that way.  Everybody who hears "I went to Princeton" will think that meant they enrolled in and took classes in Princeton University and not Princeton Theological Seminary.  PTS is a real school, and there is no need to pad the account by trying to conflate the 2 schools (which twi did lots of times, and was right from vpw's playbook when he prevaricated and insinuated he did stuff he never did.) 

B) The comments about the graduating class are equally obscuring. "There were a number of people in his class." 3 is a number. 4 is a number.  10 is a number. 25 is a number. Leaving it like that is a deliberate decision to make it vague and INSINUATE greater numbers. (Again, make a vague statement which is not a complete lie but suggests the opposite of the truth, and show you learned that trick as well as vpw did it.  We've seen it documented before-and again the other day.)

C) Pike's Peak was UNACCREDITED.  It did NOT attempt to meet the minimum standards for accreditation that prove it's worth it to pay them a single dollar or work for their degree.  Therefore, they have as much degree-granting authority as Schlotsky's Deli.   vpw had one unaccredited doctorate. I have 3 unaccredited doctorates, and I definitely have written out an awful lot if one only counts 1/10th of my output HERE.  Yet no respect for my degrees?  I've triple the doctorates he had!  "Putting in the time" for an unaccredited doctorate tells us nothing- except that they put in less time than for an accredited one.  vpw's curriculum and coursework was handled BY MAIL.  Naturally, there's no way to tell how much of that was from him and how much ripped off from someone else since it was BY MAIL. That's why accredited schools don't handle doctorates by mail.

D) "VPW not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate."

No he didn't. That's supposing the 1942 promise wasn't already proven a failure AND a fraud beyond any REASONABLE doubt.  His ability to make a grandiose claim like that earns him no doctorates in anything but chutzpah.

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7 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make.

Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do.

Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters.

I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case.

Keep trying, Rocky. It will help highlight that he will never actually DO IT.  He responded to a point nobody made-in fact, the last post on this subject was by me, a few days ago, making the exact OPPOSITE point (I said that Princeton Theological was legit.)  He responded to a point nobody made so he can claim he's too busy to actually make his case.

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2 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class.

Another thing struck me as I read WW post quoting this quote.

Which school were the graduation movies and which school is he drawing grad numbers from?

The text is unclear whether its PTS or PP.

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3 minutes ago, So_crates said:

Another thing struck me as I read WW post quoting this quote.

Which school were the graduation movies and which school is he drawing grad numbers from?

The text is unclear whether its PTS or PP.

Quite right!  Correspondence schools don't have big graduating classes like Princeton Theological Seminary would be expected to have.

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Here is some info on the 1948 Pikes Peak graduation.....

No picture in Mrs. W's book of "graduating class"........vague reference to *students from India, China*  (raising more doubts about size of graduating class)

 

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 7:42 AM, skyrider said:

On page 67 of Mrs. Wierwille's book:

"On July 5, 1948, our family of five began a trip in our new 1948 Chevrolet, given to us by the Wierwille family, to Manitou Springs, Colorado.  Rev. Wierwille had been taking correspondence work with Pikes Peak Bible Seminary and Burton College and writing his doctoral dissertation on "Peter the Preacher."  By being in attendance at the seminary in Colorado, he was completing his requirements for a Doctor of Theology degree.  Students there came from India and China as well as various parts of the United States.

Along with taking course work, Rev. Wierwille also taught two classes:  'Radio Preaching Techniques' and 'Peter the Preacher.'  On Wednesday, July 28, 1948, he was awarded the Doctor of Theology degree by Pikes Peak Seminary in a ceremony at the Community Congregational Church in Manitou Springs.  Immediately after his graduation, the five of us left for Minnesota for the Camp Farthest Out at Lake Koronis.  It was a tremendous and exceptional summer to have our young family experience both occasions."

  • Insert picture:  Dr. Wierwille on the right at Pikes Peak Seminary.  Dr. Stuart Hydanus, who later taught at one of our camps, is on the left.  And Dr. Ellis Lininger, the president of the seminary and an educator whom Dr. Wierwille highly revered, is second from the left.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1948 Commencement Brochure:

 

Pikes Peak Bible Seminary

and Burton College

SUMMER SESSION JULY, 1948

 

COMMENCEMENT

 

WEDNESDAY, JULY 28, 1948

 

 

Community Congregational Church

Manitou Springs, Colorado

The Rev. H. Ellis Lininger, E.D., LL. D.

President

The Rev. Lewis C. Miller, Ps,D., S.T.D.

Dean

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Note:  In 1948, Pikes Peak Seminary and Burton College utilized the nearby Community Congregational Church for graduation ceremony........whereas, by 1963, the graduation ceremonies was held at the First Southern Baptist Church auditorium.

Further Noted:  After wierwille got his "doctorate degree" in 1948, the wierwille family THEN headed off to take part in Camps Farthest Out in Minnesota.....[wierwille had attended this camp by Glenn Clark in the summer of 1945, also].....which led to wierwille's version TFI, "Total Fitness Institute" in California with John Summerv!lle and later, L.E.A.D. --- Leadership Education Adventure Direction.

 

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Wierwille got his "doctor of theology degree" from a BOGUS correspondence degree-mill.  Even as early as 1963......the Baptist Program magazine noted the gimmicks and bargain-basement style of these places where non-denominational preachers went fishing for theology degrees.   Wierwille did his meager correspondence work with Pikes Peak Seminary and Burton College in Manitou Springs, CO in 1948.

And.........then, there's this

1963 Baptist Publication.......Listing U.S. Diploma Mills

 

 

Quote

 

October 25, 1963

Magazine Lists Known

U. S. Diploma Mills

NASHVILLE (BP)--A feature article in the November issue of Baptist Program magazine

lists known diploma mills in the United States and says "some prominent names

in Southern Baptist life" are their "alumni."

The writer is Jack Gulledge, pastor, Emmanuel Baptist Church, Tucson, Ariz.

Gulledge says his curiosity was aroused by seeing an "array of degrees hanging

on the dining room wall of (a) country parsonage" in the South.

"I suspected the school granting (the) degrees to be a degree mill," he adds.

A letter to the U. S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare office in Washington,

brought back a list of known degree mills, according to the author.

Gulledge urges pulpit committees to "be informed concerning this spurious system

of fraudulent degrees." He advises Baptist church pastors and workers to "double

check the school's accreditation and background" when taking correspondence study.

"Alumni" of one "college and seminary" located at the foot of Pike's Peak in

Colorado are 23 per cent Baptists. "This 'college and seminary' advertised its

summer graduation exercises to be held in a nearby First Southern Baptist Church

auditorium," GUlledge observes.

"The bogus college degrees are up for grabs, in bargain basement style, with

all kinds of gimmicks to ensnare the status-seeker," the article reports.

Copying from the government listing of these diploma mills, the Baptist Program,

a magazine for pastors and denominational workers issued by the Southern Baptist

Convention Executive Committee, names active mills as:

American Bible School, Chicago; American Divinity School, Pineland, Fla.;

Belin Memorial University, Manassas, Va.; Blackstone School of Law, Chicago;

Burton College and Seminary, Manitou Springs, Colo.

snip......

 

 

Pikes Peak Bible Seminary / Burton College...............same

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1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

Keep trying, Rocky. It will help highlight that he will never actually DO IT.  He responded to a point nobody made-in fact, the last post on this subject was by me, a few days ago, making the exact OPPOSITE point (I said that Princeton Theological was legit.)  He responded to a point nobody made so he can claim he's too busy to actually make his case.

I understand... and explained why (on the god-breathe thread) it is not possible for him to do so by interacting on this forum while he's trying (that's giving his motivation the benefit of the doubt... otherwise he's just pretending) to make a case. I pointed out Ephesians 4:14 which highlights the concept of getting distracted.

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"On July 5, 1948, our family of five began a trip in our new 1948 Chevrolet,”...

on July 28, awarded the PhD...

wow, that is one hell of a program. I think I once read he did a couple of hours on a radio program while there too. Yup he did the work necessary to get his degree from a TOTALLY WORTHLESS program. Even the Baptists finally figured this out. It was all for show and tell. Considering travel time in a 1948 Chevy he had around 2 weeks of in residence study, advising and defending his dissertation. It was not worth the paper it was written on, let alone the gas to get there.

My son is wrapping up 2 1/2 years of coursework next semester for his Econ PhD after about the same time needed for his Masters. That averages 60 hours a week, 48 weeks a year of study, writing,  advising and also testing hard data. The difference? Yeah, his will actually mean something. I wonder if ‘God breathes’ peer reviewed studies he could have copied and gotten done quicker. Wierwille and PFAL were a scam and hoax. The only god-breathing involved came out Dictor’s ass.

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3 hours ago, Rocky said:

Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make.

Yes. I can see that.  The problem is the tangents are important also, and sometimes will be crucial later to my arguments. It's not easy to avoid this temptation to chase after some to the  good tangents.


Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do.

Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters.

 That's EXACTLY what I keep planning to do, and then a juicy tangent comes rolling in. There's been a lot of posting.


I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case.

ANYTHING can be picked apart. The question is how well.

 

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34 minutes ago, HAPe4me said:

"On July 5, 1948, our family of five began a trip in our new 1948 Chevrolet,”...

on July 28, awarded the PhD...

wow, that is one hell of a program. I think I once read he did a couple of hours on a radio program while there too. Yup he did the work necessary to get his degree from a TOTALLY WORTHLESS program. Even the Baptists finally figured this out. It was all for show and tell. Considering travel time in a 1948 Chevy he had around 2 weeks of in residence study, advising and defending his dissertation. It was not worth the paper it was written on, let alone the gas to get there.

My son is wrapping up 2 1/2 years of coursework next semester for his Econ PhD after about the same time needed for his Masters. That averages 60 hours a week, 48 weeks a year of study, writing,  advising and also testing hard data. The difference? Yeah, his will actually mean something. I wonder if ‘God breathes’ peer reviewed studies he could have copied and gotten done quicker. Wierwille and PFAL were a scam and hoax. The only god-breathing involved came out Dictor’s foot.

HAPe, wow!!  I know getting a PhD is a lot of work, but I am so happy for your son!  Good for him, and good for you!  :anim-smile:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mike said:

Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make.

Yes. I can see that.  The problem is the tangents are important also, and sometimes will be crucial later to my arguments. It's not easy to avoid this temptation to chase after some to the  good tangents.


Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do.

Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters.

 That's EXACTLY what I keep planning to do, and then a juicy tangent comes rolling in. There's been a lot of posting.


I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case.

ANYTHING can be picked apart. The question is how well.

No, the tangents are not important also. You either can make your case without distraction or you can't. Don't expect sympathy from anyone here because you have a problem with instant gratification (which is what getting distracted is all about).

Yes, anything can and will be picked apart. EVERY argument humans make are is subject to people finding holes in them and point out the holes. If you genuinely want to accomplish what you have claimed you want to accomplish, get to it. But you're not fooling anyone here with your weak-willed inattention to your claimed intent.

If you don't go offline and make your case, every person here who has vocally scoffed at your intent will (continue to) be justified.

If you DO write up an argument then come back here to present it, if you are sincere about your intent, you'll look at the criticism that follows as opportunity to go back offline and update the argument. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Edited by Rocky
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Mike in black

Rocky in red

Me below

Mike, you're not helping your cause by responding to every tangential point anyone tries to make.

Yes. I can see that.  The problem is the tangents are important also, and sometimes will be crucial later to my arguments. It's not easy to avoid this temptation to chase after some to the  good tangents.


Make your case, as clearly and succinctly as you can. I'd bet you'll feel better when you do.

Perhaps if you go offline and write it up as such, then come back and post it, it will be less frustrating for you and other readers and posters.

 That's EXACTLY what I keep planning to do, and then a juicy tangent comes rolling in. There's been a lot of posting.


I'm confident, however, that when you do so, people here will still pick it apart. But at least you'll be able to say you made an effort to develop a coherent case.

ANYTHING can be picked apart. The question is how well.

##########

 

Alot can be eliminated by  being prepared.

In my university days, that's one of the first things the professors and TAs taught me: Come to class prepared

It's like Shakespeare said, Readiness is all.

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Boom, who wrote the book of love, eh Wierwille?

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