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corp meeting when vpw was confronted with leader's sexual abuse

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1 hour ago, WordWolf said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"I'm glad I got in, and I'm glad I got out."

I'm not aware of anyone whose story had NOTHING but negatives, but some people certainly feel that way after suffering quite a bit in twi.    I think vpw had ulterior motives when he DID speak the truth, but it was spoken nevertheless.  He benefited people almost accidentally- and partly to bait the hook with some food.  I won't say there was NO benefits in the process.

 

My view is that speaking in absolutes about veepee is probably not fair or reasonable, but it seems fair and reasonable to surmise that he ultimately got around to having ulterior motives.

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Totally agree WordWolf, good true perspective. Continues to interest me how good and truth mix to a certain degree with evil and lies...   And seeing ppls underlying motives and "drivers" helps to clarify what is good and what is not, eh? Again, many areas in this world are not black and white on a certain experiential level. Thank you!

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8 hours ago, annio said:

Totally agree WordWolf, good true perspective. Continues to interest me how good and truth mix to a certain degree with evil and lies...   And seeing ppls underlying motives and "drivers" helps to clarify what is good and what is not, eh? Again, many areas in this world are not black and white on a certain experiential level. Thank you!

In the early 1990s, after reading a news story about corrupt goings on at a small private college in Prescott, AZ, I read this book, People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck.

That book informed my understanding of my experience in twi.

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13 hours ago, annio said:

Totally agree WordWolf, good true perspective. Continues to interest me how good and truth mix to a certain degree with evil and lies...   And seeing ppls underlying motives and "drivers" helps to clarify what is good and what is not, eh? Again, many areas in this world are not black and white on a certain experiential level. Thank you!

 

As for motives, since we have so much information on vpw's life and comments, we can trace a relatively clear path, at least in his own words.

We know that vpw told the early corps that he considered business, music AND ministry before going into ministry. (Yes, looks like he got into all 3, I know.)  So, going into ministry was a CAREER decision, not a calling.   We know that he claimed that in his first 2 years in ministry, each of those years, he seriously considered giving up.   So, going into ministry wasn't about CONVICTION, but about convenience.   We know that he took "Homiletics" or preaching, as his area of study- not "Bible history" or anything rigorous- he picked probably the softest option.   When he was into his second year as a preacher was when he first heard the idea that the Bible was the word of God and that he didn't believe it prior to that.  (We don't know what he based the first year's sermons on, but it wasn't on the idea that the Bible was really special.)   

 

We also know that he inflated his credentials- like when he claimed he took ALL of Moody's correspondence courses, but according to their records, he never took ANY of their courses.   (They have records of all completed courses, and there is NO record of him having turned in even one course.)    We know that, around 1970 or shortly thereafter, vpw began claiming he heard from God Almighty back in 1942, in a promise that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.   We know that, according to him, his first thought when he supposedly heard that was that EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM if that was the case.   We also know that he's cited snowstorms that didn't exist to punctuate events he later claimed were important.   In 1953, he went to a convention where he met JE Stiles and learned from him, later plagiarizing the entire contents of Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit for his own publication.  Of that day, he claimed the city was in a blizzard, and planes, trains AND buses were all out.  (There wasn't even a single flake on the ground.)  When confronted with this, he never claimed anyone was mistaken- instead he claimed that angels answered the phones at the bus depot, etc and lied to him each time. 

 

All of that says quite a bit about the man, and that's hardly everything.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 8:36 AM, Just call me Darling said:

So while they were also not perfect, as so many other religions are imperfect, they helped "perfect" my believing, even if inadvertently.

don't frequently read (much less, post) here anymore... but reading that sure stirs the pot a bit.

probably because it was an issue that often drew deeper thoughts outta me, even back in early 80's, maybe 'cause it didnt' fit and felt rather "off" to me.

whatever our take or perspective on what believing is (or isn't), what I am fully persuaded of is that the only one that ever perfected it is the Lord Jesus Christ.
And not only are we not capable of that (whatever "that" is), because he did (perfect it) ...not only do we not have to, neither do I think our day to day attention and efforts should dwell on it (i.e., our own "perfect" believing.)

Fact is, far too much attention and effort in twi was focused on precisely that, and not on the simplicity of knowing the Lord, and merely allowing "his perfected ability" to shine and (relatively effortlessly) flow through us.

Maybe it's a fine line or distinction that I'm trying to pencil out here... but it was certainly palpable enough, even "back in the day."

 

Edited by TLC

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2 hours ago, TLC said:

don't frequently read (much less, post) here anymore... but reading that sure stirs the pot a bit.

probably because it was an issue that often drew deeper thoughts outta me, even back in early 80's, maybe 'cause it didnt' fit and felt rather "off" to me.

whatever our take or perspective on what believing is (or isn't), what I am fully persuaded of is that the only one that ever perfected it is the Lord Jesus Christ.
And not only are we not capable of that (whatever "that" is), because he did (perfect it) ...not only do we not have to, neither do I think our day to day attention and efforts should dwell on it (i.e., our own "perfect" believing.)

Fact is, far too much attention and effort in twi was focused on precisely that, and not on the simplicity of knowing the Lord, and merely allowing "his perfected ability" to shine and (relatively effortlessly) flow through us.

Maybe it's a fine line or distinction that I'm trying to pencil out here... but it was certainly palpable enough, even "back in the day."

 

Amen.......[on the bold-faced statement above]/

You know........I rarely have agreed with TLC on much, but on THIS.......I AGREE.

If twi had stuck to scripture.......ie. "the simplicity that is in Christ.........it would not be circling the drain today!!!

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The problem with the presumed "good" is that IMO it is what got so many of us into trouble. Like his "humble souding" disclaimer at ROA 1976 after he elicited the automatic "NO" shout to "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille". IMO it is just one of many things he did to delude HIMSELF into thinking he was THE "Man of God." That is why teaching about God and the bible with the same methods used in TWI is of little value IMO. That comment may be better suited for the "offshoots" topic. But this thread mentions the abuse. and that abuse is what sours survivors, and should sour others, on the motives behind the "good".

 

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On 9/15/2019 at 4:25 PM, Lifted Up said:

The problem with the presumed "good" is that IMO it is what got so many of us into trouble. Like his "humble souding" disclaimer at ROA 1976 after he elicited the automatic "NO" shout to "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille". IMO it is just one of many things he did to delude HIMSELF into thinking he was THE "Man of God." That is why teaching about God and the bible with the same methods used in TWI is of little value IMO. That comment may be better suited for the "offshoots" topic. But this thread mentions the abuse. and that abuse is what sours survivors, and should sour others, on the motives behind the "good".

 

 

On 9/12/2019 at 3:40 PM, TLC said:

don't frequently read (much less, post) here anymore... but reading that sure stirs the pot a bit.

probably because it was an issue that often drew deeper thoughts outta me, even back in early 80's, maybe 'cause it didnt' fit and felt rather "off" to me.

whatever our take or perspective on what believing is (or isn't), what I am fully persuaded of is that the only one that ever perfected it is the Lord Jesus Christ.
And not only are we not capable of that (whatever "that" is), because he did (perfect it) ...not only do we not have to, neither do I think our day to day attention and efforts should dwell on it (i.e., our own "perfect" believing.)

Fact is, far too much attention and effort in twi was focused on precisely that, and not on the simplicity of knowing the Lord, and merely allowing "his perfected ability" to shine and (relatively effortlessly) flow through us.

Maybe it's a fine line or distinction that I'm trying to pencil out here... but it was certainly palpable enough, even "back in the day."

 

Yes, vpw's narcissistic father-figuring, power-grabbing, sexual abusing, and (I am coming to think) his dispensational boxing up of the church age distanced us/me slowly but surely from the "less relevant" person of Jesus!  I.e. Jesus' presently available friendship, love, work among us, ministering to us individually... Seeing and understanding HIS sacrifices for us personally,  not vp's. And all of the counter-cultural ways that Jesus functioned that are still so needed by the world today...  And so much more...

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On 9/15/2019 at 4:25 PM, Lifted Up said:

The problem with the presumed "good" is that IMO it is what got so many of us into trouble. Like his "humble souding" disclaimer at ROA 1976 after he elicited the automatic "NO" shout to "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille". IMO it is just one of many things he did to delude HIMSELF into thinking he was THE "Man of God." That is why teaching about God and the bible with the same methods used in TWI is of little value IMO. That comment may be better suited for the "offshoots" topic. But this thread mentions the abuse. and that abuse is what sours survivors, and should sour others, on the motives behind the "good".

 

True enough IMO. Wow, you remembered that hypocritical disclaimer shouted out from the ROA main stage, eh? I thought of his rather tearful disclaimer probably on a teaching tape later on about never having claimed to be an Apostle Paul-like figure... The he#% you didn't! The whole way tree was based on a structure that was a false take off of the 1st century church, with you raking in the bucks, unlike Paul, as the self-appointed MOG leader. Oh yes, you claimed to be Paul for this day and time, since you were teaching from the Epistles as they had not been taught since the first century... And since the way ministry was the first century church in the 20th... Geez. 

(I find that the denominational church that I attend now is doing an excellent job of encouraging doctrinal, ethnic, racial, etc diversity while actively seeking and supporting unity with other churches in town; the home fellowship life group meetings are wonderful as well. I do still have a special place in my heart for CFF 3 hours away as a place to connect with folks who did find alot of the goodness of God and His ppl thru the way, but guess that is an attachment thing since those WOW ambassadors did rescue me from some pretty devastating things in my hippie days, and the way gave me an alternative to some churches that had burned me and some friends pretty badly... And CFF has evolved in some very healthy ways IMHO...)  Guess some of this should be in off shoots, but it is also talking to the genuine good that I do want to hold fast to that GOD was able to bless me with thru the way and all of the good folks therein (from '74-'88 and now beyond), in spite of vpw's and others' character flaws.

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On 9/15/2019 at 5:25 PM, Lifted Up said:

The problem with the presumed "good" is that IMO it is what got so many of us into trouble. Like his "humble souding" disclaimer at ROA 1976 after he elicited the automatic "NO" shout to "Finally, my brethren, be strong in VP Wierwille". IMO it is just one of many things he did to delude HIMSELF into thinking he was THE "Man of God." That is why teaching about God and the bible with the same methods used in TWI is of little value IMO. That comment may be better suited for the "offshoots" topic. But this thread mentions the abuse. and that abuse is what sours survivors, and should sour others, on the motives behind the "good".

 

The sad thing is, if vpw had spoken sincerely and from the heart when he said that, it would have been a really good thing.

He directed people to read Ephesians 6, starting at verse 10.  He read aloud, misreading aloud so everyone reading along could catch the distinction.

" 'Finally, my brethren, be strong in vp wierwille."  *group 'no'* "Say it LOUDER!"  *group 'NO!'*    "That's right. You're not strong in vp wierwille.  Many of you may have heard God's Word from me, but I didn't die for you."       *shout from offside that sounded like VF* "IT WAS JESUS CHRIST!"    "You said it, man!"      Then vpw criticized people who say to look at this or that leader. "I look at The Word, baby!" 

 

Sadly, all of that was show.  vpw wanted us to look to vpw, but when the microphones were on, he knew to say the opposite.    Who would possibly believe the accounts of the victims, of the abused, when vpw said the opposite IN PUBLIC?   Who would imagine vpw could be such a Grade A Hypocrite that he could do that all the time?  It sounds ridiculous, and if there wasn't so much testimony from so many witnesses and so many victims, it might not be possible to accept that vpw did it.

 

vpw SO deluded himself into thinking he was "THE Man of God" that- when he was in his final hours of life, he wracked his brain, looking for how he could somehow have "missed it" and failed God so he couldn't Super-Believe into instant health.   He looked back on his life, and was unable to find anything sufficient.   That was all for himself, alone. Now, THAT'S quite a level of delusion.

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9 hours ago, WordWolf said:

The sad thing is, if vpw had spoken sincerely and from the heart when he said that, it would have been a really good thing.

He directed people to read Ephesians 6, starting at verse 10.  He read aloud, misreading aloud so everyone reading along could catch the distinction.

" 'Finally, my brethren, be strong in vp wierwille."  *group 'no'* "Say it LOUDER!"  *group 'NO!'*    "That's right. You're not strong in vp wierwille.  Many of you may have heard God's Word from me, but I didn't die for you."       *shout from offside that sounded like VF* "IT WAS JESUS CHRIST!"    "You said it, man!"      Then vpw criticized people who say to look at this or that leader. "I look at The Word, baby!" 

 

Sadly, all of that was show.  vpw wanted us to look to vpw, but when the microphones were on, he knew to say the opposite.    Who would possibly believe the accounts of the victims, of the abused, when vpw said the opposite IN PUBLIC?   Who would imagine vpw could be such a Grade A Hypocrite that he could do that all the time?  It sounds ridiculous, and if there wasn't so much testimony from so many witnesses and so many victims, it might not be possible to accept that vpw did it.

 

vpw SO deluded himself into thinking he was "THE Man of God" that- when he was in his final hours of life, he wracked his brain, looking for how he could somehow have "missed it" and failed God so he couldn't Super-Believe into instant health.   He looked back on his life, and was unable to find anything sufficient.   That was all for himself, alone. Now, THAT'S quite a level of delusion.

OMGosh, so clearly stated and such an exposure of the underlying delusion, Wordwolf, that I think I finally get it. THANK YOU.

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Continuing my post from above- AND, here is a DUH! logical conclusion re: vp's ability (and willingness) to guide ppl into a "true and vital relationship with God" and therefore with His Son Jesus Christ - as he 1) became  progressively addicted to ppl's approval, power, sex, etc, 2) became more and more delusional about his own importance, 3) taught more and more error, and 4) engaged progressively in sinful unGodly thoughts, words, and behaviors, he removed himself more and more from actual fellowship with God and Jesus.  Therefore, when he teaches/shouts things as in the above incident, or tells young ladies that being sexually involved with him gives them a giant step up into God's and his approval*, he was actually distancing himself personally in huge ways from God and Jesus, and leading us away from them as well.   "I am the way, the truth, and the life" did not apply to vpw but to Jesus.

I know these things are obvious, but I am grieving as I write this; it is very painful to see... Guess a part of me was still pretty attached emotionally... But since certain damaging things had been normalized for me pre-way ministry, when I began experiencing them there too, I had no real way to judge them or to detach. Plus, once one trusts someone like a spiritual leader, especially in a developmental stage of life, it will be a process to undo the trust, eh?

(Of course, I am glad that God holds me personally responsible for my part - I sinned "in ignorance" as Paul wrote. I was not a total victim, and have my part in repenting and coming clean...)

*It could probably be said that all of the garbage fed to young women about how being close to the mog sexually was a sacred secret trust, and their compliance, in turn fed into his delusional state of mind just as the other power abuse/lies and our affirmations/belief in him did. Never mind the state of partial concubinage that I know at least two woman experienced as a way of being in the inner circle of the rather misogynistic men... Oh yes, the delusions of power and entitlement continued...

Thank you again, this is rough but necessary... Onward!

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22 hours ago, annio said:

 

Yes, vpw's narcissistic father-figuring, power-grabbing, sexual abusing, and (I am coming to think) his dispensational boxing up of the church age distanced us/me slowly but surely from the "less relevant" person of Jesus!  I.e. Jesus' presently available friendship, love, work among us, ministering to us individually... Seeing and understanding HIS sacrifices for us personally,  not vp's. And all of the counter-cultural ways that Jesus functioned that are still so needed by the world today...  And so much more...

In reality, he didn't actually do any "boxing up" (i.e., containment) of dispensations. not only did he not rightly divide them (as plainly instructed to do in 2Tim2:15), seems he took, stole, borrowed or used (however you want to think of it) whatever he could from what was written to and intended specifically for Israel whenever it appeared to be advantageous to do so.  so what if anyone talks about or makes some rather broad references to there being different "administrations"... yet in both doctrinal teachings and practice, fails to rightly separate and clearly note various distinctions (and similarities) between the message or purposes of them?

for starters:

have (live) life more abundantly - written to and for whom ?

because that's sure not the kind of life or living that Paul made some great reference to in his epistles... (see Phil.4:11, 1Tim.6:6-8.)

Edited by TLC

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10 minutes ago, TLC said:

In reality, he didn't actually do any "boxing up" (i.e., containment) of dispensations. not only did he not rightly divide them (as plainly instructed to do in 2Tim2:15), seems he took, stole, borrowed or used (however you want to think of it) whatever he could from what was written to and intended specifically for Israel whenever it appeared to be advantageous to do so.  so what if anyone talks about or makes some rather broad references to there being different "administrations"... yet in both doctrinal teachings and practice, fails to rightly separate and clearly note various distinctions (and similarities) between the message or purposes of them?

for starters:

have (live) life more abundantly - written to and for whom ?

because that's sure not the kind of life or living that Paul made some great reference to in his epistles... (see Phil.4:11, 1Tim.6:6-8.)

I suspect you have some good points in your comment, but I'm not seeing how it relates to the topic of this thread. Perhaps you could clarify. Thanks.

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9 hours ago, annio said:

Continuing my post from above- AND, here is a DUH! logical conclusion re: vp's ability (and willingness) to guide ppl into a "true and vital relationship with God" and therefore with His Son Jesus Christ - as he 1) became  progressively addicted to ppl's approval, power, sex, etc, 2) became more and more delusional about his own importance, 3) taught more and more error, and 4) engaged progressively in sinful unGodly thoughts, words, and behaviors, he removed himself more and more from actual fellowship with God and Jesus.  Therefore, when he teaches/shouts things as in the above incident, or tells young ladies that being sexually involved with him gives them a giant step up into God's and his approval*, he was actually distancing himself personally in huge ways from God and Jesus, and leading us away from them as well.   "I am the way, the truth, and the life" did not apply to vpw but to Jesus.

I know these things are obvious, but I am grieving as I write this; it is very painful to see... Guess a part of me was still pretty attached emotionally... But since certain damaging things had been normalized for me pre-way ministry, when I began experiencing them there too, I had no real way to judge them or to detach. Plus, once one trusts someone like a spiritual leader, especially in a developmental stage of life, it will be a process to undo the trust, eh?

(Of course, I am glad that God holds me personally responsible for my part - I sinned "in ignorance" as Paul wrote. I was not a total victim, and have my part in repenting and coming clean...)

*It could probably be said that all of the garbage fed to young women about how being close to the mog sexually was a sacred secret trust, and their compliance, in turn fed into his delusional state of mind just as the other power abuse/lies and our affirmations/belief in him did. Never mind the state of partial concubinage that I know at least two woman experienced as a way of being in the inner circle of the rather misogynistic men... Oh yes, the delusions of power and entitlement continued...

Thank you again, this is rough but necessary... Onward!

While I agree that the things he did were antithetical to God's will  (and would push one AWAY from God rather than drawing one CLOSER to God),  I'm doubtful he was EVER close to God.    His decision to get into preaching was as a career move, not as a calling.  His neighbors thought it was ridiculous- he'd earned a reputation as a showoff, a braggart, a bully.    His first 2 years as a preacher were punctuated- according to him- with him considering quitting. That's TWICE in the first TWO YEARS.    He could deliver a sermon, but it wasn't until the first year of doing so was over that he even considered the idea that the Bible was God's Word. (What was he basing the sermons ON for a year?)    He had a history of editing the work of other Christians.   The rise of his speaking some things people consider excellent or more can be traced directly to his exposure to the writings of Bullinger, the book by Stiles, and the class of Leonard.  In fact, the things he said that were considered noteworthy were all taken directly from those 3 sources.  (There were other sources with more minor influences like Kenyon.)   He put forth that he was getting all this from God Almighty and that he was going solely to the Bible as his textbook and his workbook, as he said many times.      

One interesting result of repeating aloud the contents of the works of others was the occasional inability to understand something, and repeating it incorrectly, then changing later and saying something completely different.     From Bullinger, he got "all without exception" and "all without distinction",  and later "all without exception" and "all with A distinction."  His explanations of the differences between other (allos)  and other (heteros)  were inconsistent for the same reason.  According to the pfal class, "anabolepto" means to physically witness-  but in the book, "eidon" means to physically witness.    For a man who supposedly JUST read the Bible for hundreds of hours a week, he still managed to get confused on who Paul heard say he "almost persuaded to be a Christian." He couldn't remember if it was Felix or Festus.   He couldn't pick from either because it was neither- it was AGRIPPA who said it.

Why did vpw sound convincing while saying stuff that sounded like it had such good substance?  He plagiarized entirely the works of those who taught good substance.  His only skill there was in preaching it.  vpw could take a speech and make it sound heartfelt and personally meaningful even if he didn't believe it nor understood it.  Actors do much the same.   Any actor worth the name can take something, and recite it, and emote it fully with no connection to the content.  There's one exercise where a couple had a romantic scene- where the dialogue was entirely composed of a supermarket shopping list, recited romantically.  I'm hardly a noted actor, and I once emoted a speech where the content was a recipe.      It's a skill among actors, and among politicians.  Con artists can have it also.    vpw sold the whole picture after assembling it- that he was a real man of God.  We bought it because he was convincing-  and partly because others we trusted bought it before us.

 

So, I don't think vpw HAD a connection with God to be disconnected FROM.  I think he was emoting and imitating the connections of valid Christians, and filling in the rest with empty showmanship.   He'd pause, then claim he'd gotten revelation on something.  He'd hide his sources of information, and insinuate/ suggest they were all by revelation.  It was all part of the con. 

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To: Just call me Darlin, and to all that have ears to hear,

You have a great heart.  A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. I agree with you on the positive things that we learned at TWI. And are still with us today. The Word does say that all men are sinners,  all without exception. So if we think that we are free from sin then let's cast the first stone.

I know that when I entered the  Way Corp in 1990, I was very promiscuous before I came in. I was single and I enjoyed the female gender. So there were a lot of single lonely women at headquarters, it was mutually agreed upon to be meeting each others needs physically. But yet on the other hand I loved God and wanted to have a more personal relationship with Him. My heart was with God but my mind was on the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. I needed to do a lot of changing. So I can't blame anyone for the sexuality at TWI because I was a willing participant. Again if I'm free of broken fellowship with God then I guess I will judge others of there broken fellowship. If I point my finger at someone, then I have four more pointing back at myself.

Anyone born of the spirit of God is a brother and a sister of mine and in the body of Christ.They will be at the gathering together with Christ and will receive rewards, not judgment.

God requests me to speak the truth in love. Now if I have forgotten the attributes of that love of God then, He reminds me of what they are in l Corinthians chapter 13. A reproof  for me to adhere too, and obey, to get back to the right doctrine of Romans.

Yes, I remember bawling my eyes out as I was driving off the TWI grounds. I was devastated. I made a commitment to God to do this, and was asked to leave for reasons that were biblically unsound. But LCM saw it fit that I be ostracized. Yes, I was feeling that pain heavily for the next three years. I just obeyed ll Timothy 2:15, studying Romans through Thessalonians. I ate the words, I slept those words, and breathed those words, and my hurt and pain healed.

Anyone that has had these similar experiences should talk about them with someone you trust and that loves you. Get out all those negatives that man caused you. How ever long it takes. Then as you do that , study God's Word, sit back, and talk to your Daddy and cast your cares upon Him for He cares for you. That's what helped me and I am delivered from the bondage and pain that once encased my life.

Love you and so does God. In the name of Jesus Christ.

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On 9/10/2019 at 11:36 AM, Just call me Darling said:

 I am grateful for many of Wierwille's teachings whether he fully lived in that light or not.  He was right on so many things. Maybe God worked through him as best as He could. Something about that man had to have been right with God at some point. TWI was something God lead me to for a reason that altered my life favorably forever, so I will take the good and learn to part with the bad.  Men fail, God never fails. 

 

I once believed the exact same thing as you but I no longer see VPW's teachings as God breathed. I see his teachings as mostly plagiarized.

"TWI was something God lead me to for a reason that altered my life favorably forever, so I will take the good and learn to part with the bad.  Men fail, God never fails. "

This part I agree you 100%. I'm still trying to grasp the human suffering part but I think we should strive for justice for the victims.

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