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penguin2
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28 minutes ago, penguin2 said:

No, didn't say anything about actual numbers.

And they're not GOING to give actual numbers.  twi is so small and insignificant now- in a societal sense but it can still ruin INDIVIDUAL lives like it's doing now-  that they stopped giving numbers since the early 1990s after they lost 80% of the current group.  Since then, they've gone OUT OF THEIR WAY to express everything without exact numbers of people because the numbers look so pitiful. There's some megachurches around the US that have more people show up EVERY SUNDAY than are in twi across the entire USA.     So, they claim they have lots of people and so on, but get vague as to the numbers.  My favorite method for this was when they reported on a graduating class of the corps.  They announced that 20% of the grads were going on to do one thing, 20% to do another, and so on through 100% by 5 accounts of 20%.  How many grads were there?  FIVE.  So, ONE GRAD was going on to do one things, ONE GRAD to do another, etc.  Not a lie. Just phrasing things in a way to INSINUATE a lie, so people think something other than what was TECHNICALLY said.  That's right out of vpw's playbook, all the way back to when he said he "played basketball all through college" (never actually said he WAS ON A TEAM, just that he played while he was in)  and that he was "involved with the Sheboygan Redskins" (again, not that he ever put on the uniform and played in a single game, just that he had some vague connection),  then could technically say he didn't actually LIE to anyone.   "LYING" by INSINUATION is deceptive and COWARDLY, but, hey, it's all twi HAS by now, so it's not like they're going to stop now.   They're just trying to keep twi circling the drain but not falling in, all so that the handful at the top can exploit its resources and get what they can out of it so they don't have to work a REAL job like all the fools they convince into giving them 15% of their income regularly.

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1 hour ago, penguin2 said:

Saw someone say on social that it's the biggest class in twenty years. Then I remembered that they lifted the no debt policy for advanced class candidates. Hmm

I'm curious whether that policy was recommended by twi's lawyers or not.  There was a time that the only times twi changed something to be a little LESS exploitative of their people was when their lawyers said to do it.  (How evil does your CHURCH have to be if a bunch of LAWYERS have to tell you to do the right thing for your members?)

 

More likely, it was a self-defense measure by someone who did the math.  The Advanced Class is one of the things- and ALL the things twi EVER does fall into this category- that TURNS A PROFIT.   twi MAKES MONEY off of each person who attends.  So, someone finally realized they were shutting off an additional revenue stream by making it more restrictive to take the Advanced Class.  lcm started that a long time ago as an additional CONTROL MEASURE, and it cost them a lot of money but ensured those who were still there were more blindly faithful than otherwise. 

Meanwhile, in life, there were people who had to take out loans for any of a number of things- and twi made that FORBIDDEN, so that separated all of them from twi's "good graces."   Need to buy a car?   Better get a cheap used one and just keep fixing it up.  If you bought a new car and made payments, twi would disapprove and get in your business.   Need a place to live?  Better stay a renter for the rest of your life and hand money over to a landlord.  If you bought a house and made payments, twi would disapprove and get in your business.    Want to start a business?   Better make it something with no startup, like washing windows. If you got a loan to start it up, twi would disapprove and get in your business.   Nobody ever wonders why twi members are always tired, because we know twi always has more hoops to jump through.  Nobody ever wonders why twi'ers always have old beat-up cars to put their stickers on- although lcm used to complain about that because he was an idiot who NEVER WORKED A DAY IN HIS LIFE and didn't understand that you can't get a new car with cash upfront if you're most people or not using twi's budget.

So, twi rolls back another STUPID policy they had for over 20 years that they NEVER should have had, and that they kicked people out or chased out for disobeying, and the remaining glassy-eyed minions of twi just nod, smile, and think of how much better their lives just got. 

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I proudly announce that I am debt-free.  Always have been.  My entire life.

Never have had to borrow any money, ever, except when I bought my house.  Wow, how did I achieve this astonishing feat?  My parents taught me.  There was little money in the household when we were brought up.  Mum couldn't work due to caring responsibilities for her own small kids, and for her elderly grandparents who lived in a nearby village (to which she cycled every day).  Dad worked hard at his job and if he could, did overtime or worked as a builder's labourer at weekend, just to make ends meet.  I saw the money set aside in a moneybox: this for the milk, this for the gas, this for the rent...   Despite great poverty at times, my parents never borrowed.  Never.  And  that's what they taught us.  And they gave what they could, to support others.

After I escaped TWI, full of guilt and shame (brought on by TWI-teachings) it took me a very long time (because we shouldn't have debts, of course: ungodly) to decide to buy a house .  And that was because I couldn't afford to rent anywhere in this city!!  Over the years, I've paid off capital lump sums and reduced the time commitment.  I now have a tiny mortgage that I have been able to pay off completely for some time; however, the interest over my remaining term I calculate at about £9 and to pay off that amount right now would be £52.   So hey! It's cheaper to be in debt!!  But come on December (last payment).

So soon I will have a capital asset, debt-free, worth a lot of money.  Should I sell it and give the cash to TWI?  No bloody fear!  Do I regret buying a house?  No way!!  I couldn't afford rents when I bought, and I definitely can't now, 14 years later.  I'm just glad the mortgage doesn't continue for another 7 years (to its original term).

Advanced class?  Phooey!  They need classes on COMMON SENSE!

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4 hours ago, waysider said:

I used to sing with The Beatles.

(Had one of those little radios on a rope that you hang in the shower.)

ahhh so you were the fifth Beatle wheel

I used to lip-sync to Beatles' tunes – just another unsung hero.
 

Edited by T-Bone
for the betterment of comedy
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20 hours ago, penguin2 said:

a commercial on their website to come be on staff!

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:  No frikkin way!

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:08 AM, penguin2 said:

As far as numbers, looks like they have a commercial on their website to come be on staff!   

That got me thinking...what if they ran an ad for Advanced Class staff...what would it look like?

== == == == 

 

Advanced Class Staff needed

Positions now being filled to overflowing by those who think they are qualified. Only those who believe they operate all nine all the time need apply.

It may be necessary to put unbelievers out of the room while reading this ad.

Applicants must be debt free.

Applicants should have an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness to look the other way when necessary. All those interested in helping people dispose of their precious time and money should submit their resume along with a required minimum donation of $567 non-refundable processing fee. If  TWI reviewers ascertain (or if push comes to shove they acquiesce) that you have Advanced-Class-Staff potential, you will be brought in to Headquarters (at your own expense) for further testing. All (without exception) resumes will be reviewed. All (with distinction) resumes not making the cut will be held in abeyance for a time, times and half a time or until there's another shortage of cheap labor.

Qualification testing at Headquarters may include oral, written and hands-on challenges. The following is a small sample of the testing:

Applicants will be tested on how fast they can repair a video cassette tape that was eaten by a vintage Betamax Player.

Do you know the best way to stretch coffee?

Do you enjoy laying your grubby little hands on people when you minister to them?

Are you proficient in discerning any people with black hearts while standing in the checkout line at Walmart?

Are you conversant with the most current “present truth”?

Do you use “first-thought” when picking the lottery numbers?

Do your “ovaries” ever hurt when you walk by the maternity ward?

Do you invariably win arguments by declaring your opponent is wrong-seed?

Do you know any Jedi mind tricks?

Are you able to stay awake at will during extreme bouts of boredom and repetitious gobbledygook?  

Can you feign interest during some long-winded tales of yore?

If you answered “yes” or “no” to any of the above questions you may already be an Advanced Class staffer chosen from the foundational class on soured by redundant living...since believing is acting like you've already received - go ahead and send the required minimum donation of $567 non-refundable processing fee even before you submit your resume...of course when you actually do submit your resume there is still the required minimum donation of $567 non-refundable processing fee - but that will be considered your abundant sharing.

Salary commensurate with what TWI believes is available.

Edited by T-Bone
*Yikes* the devil kicks up his heels every time TWI runs this Advanced Class Staff ad
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  • 3 weeks later...

The no-debt policy was just another control mechanism. Sure, if you went straight from college to Way staff and never worked a non-Way job and thought you had the rest of your life subsidized by the "believers", a life without any debt sounds doable. I agree that a lot of credit card debt is harmful, and it's easy to get in over your head and never get out...with nothing to show for it, but for most people buying a home without a bank loan is impossible. Even paying cash for a decent car is out of the question for many. Of course, Way people with family connections could always get by. A guy in our area owned his home through some financial gymnastics: his mom and dad took out the loan and were the legal owners; he and his parents drew up some arcane legal document where he would gain a percentage of the home equal to the fraction of the purchase price represented by his monthly payment to his folks. They rationalized that it wasn't really debt, since if he didn't make any more payments he would still own the percentage of the house that his previous payments represented. "Leadership" felt this didn't violate the no-debt policy. Yet my 20 year old son was excoriated for being in debt because he had to pay in after doing his taxes rather than receiving a refund. 

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And another thing...

The Advanced Class was one of the biggest disappointments in my early Way career.

After seeing how the first three "manifestations" were practiced and critiqued until it was seen that we could do them, the lack of any practical instruction in the other six was a letdown.

Discerning of spirits became an excuse to denounce others

And was there every a definition of the "manifestation of believing" that made even a little sense? 

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There are nine traits of NPD and also nine diagnostic criteria.  Nine manifestations of the holy splurt.

 

That's three sets of nine - for complete nine-sense.

 

Word of knowledge - I know it all

Word of wisdom - I always know what to do

Gifts of Healing - I'll help when the camera is rolling

Speaking in Tongues - Glorify the insignificant

Interpretation of Tongues - Pareidolia in action

Word of Prophecy - Just kidding . . . my thoughts are God's thoughts

Discerning of Spirits - I can tell who is me and who is not me . . . sometimes

Miracles - lower standards mean lower expectations . . . you're amazed by that

Believing - I re-gifted believing.  Technically, that makes it a gift.  You should feel good about it.

 

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6 hours ago, Oakspear said:

And another thing...

The Advanced Class was one of the biggest disappointments in my early Way career.

After seeing how the first three "manifestations" were practiced and critiqued until it was seen that we could do them, the lack of any practical instruction in the other six was a letdown.

Discerning of spirits became an excuse to denounce others

And was there every a definition of the "manifestation of believing" that made even a little sense? 

 

I will second that.  The Advanced Class was a big disappointment.

First off......when I went to the registration table, I found out that I was selected as a Branch Coordinator.  Now, instead of delving into the adv class material.... I was responsible for overseeing 25 guys.  Then, to add more consternation to the event.....wierwille and martindale requested that all Branch Coordinators needed to meet in the Fireplace Room at 4pm.  At this meeting, wierwille was still fuming over three 8th Corps guys who'd gone rogue with their research project and wierwille had the gall to vomit all this garbage onto us at this meeting.

Talk about spiritually/emotionally unhinged.   There was no need for wierwille to backstab these corps men in this 1978 advanced class meeting.....other than he could not contain his anger over what he perceived as "insubordination." How dare anyone even attempt to correct or challenge his pfal material.  Thus, he had to unload on the nearest target......and that just happened to be us "branch coordinators" at this advanced class.

Apparently, this was wierwille's modus operandi.  In closed-door settings (generally, with the way corps).....wierwille would sulk and opine his "having to deal with undisciplined corps."  Yet, it was wierwille who was off-track and undisciplined.  With Drambuie in hand, wierwille was a bully.

At this advanced class, we were led on a number of tangents.....1) The Thirteenth Tribe, 2) The Marxist Minstrels, 3) The Illuminati, 4) None Dare Call It Conspiracy, 5) Babylon Mystery Revealed, 6) Seed of the Serpent, 7) Major Denominations All Have Seed Boys In Charge, 8) 16 Keys to Walking By the Spirit, 9) Definitions to all Nine Manifestations, etc.  Lots of reading Old Testament records.  The Advanced Class is to bring people to full, spiritual maturity......so, were we NOW fully, spiritually mature to stand on our own two feet without twi ?  NOPE.

Each class, each program leads to another.....and then another.  The Way International's dirty little secret is that you will always be a STUDENT....and they will always be your LEADERS and TEACHERS.  In this setup, you are always subordinate to them.  You are dependent on them to "teach you the word."  YOU must abundantly share 20% (at least) for the rest of your life to be in their good graces to *receive God's Word on a silver platter.*

The con man cometh with a Bible in one hand and a degree-mill doctorate in the other. Beware.  :spy:

 

.

Edited by skyrider
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I had a lot of disappointing times while I was in The Way. The Advanced Class, though, was miles beyond disappointing. It was depressing. When the class concluded, I felt like a total failure because the  expectation of being able to operate the manifestations just wasn't happening for me. At the same time, everyone else seemed to be moving ahead full speed. I felt like I not only failed the class, but all the time and effort I had devoted to preparing for it was in vain. Well, it's only in retrospect that I understand I didn't fail the class, the class failed me. I kind of chuckle now thinking about how seriously I took all that nonsense. 

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7 hours ago, skyrider said:

 

I will second that.  The Advanced Class was a big disappointment.

First off......when I went to the registration table, I found out that I was selected as a Branch Coordinator.  Now, instead of delving into the adv class material.... I was responsible for overseeing 25 guys.  Then, to add more consternation to the event.....wierwille and martindale requested that all Branch Coordinators needed to meet in the Fireplace Room at 4pm.  At this meeting, wierwille was still fuming over three 8th Corps guys who'd gone rogue with their research project and wierwille had the gall to vomit all this garbage onto us at this meeting.

Talk about spiritually/emotionally unhinged.   There was no need for wierwille to backstab these corps men in this 1978 advanced class meeting.....other than he could not contain his anger over what he perceived as "insubordination." How dare anyone even attempt to correct or challenge his pfal material.  Thus, he had to unload on the nearest target......and that just happened to be us "branch coordinators" at this advanced class.

Apparently, this was wierwille's modus operandi.  In closed-door settings (generally, with the way corps).....wierwille would sulk and opine his "having to deal with undisciplined corps."  Yet, it was wierwille who was off-track and undisciplined.  With Drambuie in hand, wierwille was a bully.

At this advanced class, we were led on a number of tangents.....1) The Thirteenth Tribe, 2) The Marxist Minstrels, 3) The Illuminati, 4) None Dare Call It Conspiracy, 5) Babylon Mystery Revealed, 6) Seed of the Serpent, 7) Major Denominations All Have Seed Boys In Charge, 8) 16 Keys to Walking By the Spirit, 9) Definitions to all Nine Manifestations, etc.  Lots of reading Old Testament records.  The Advanced Class is to bring people to full, spiritual maturity......so, were we NOW fully, spiritually mature to stand on our own two feet without twi ?  NOPE.

Each class, each program leads to another.....and then another.  The Way International's dirty little secret is that you will always be a STUDENT....and they will always be your LEADERS and TEACHERS.  In this setup, you are always subordinate to them.  You are dependent on them to "teach you the word."  YOU must abundantly share 20% (at least) for the rest of your life to be in their good graces to *receive God's Word on a silver platter.*

The con man cometh with a Bible in one hand and a degree-mill doctorate in the other. Beware.  :spy:

 

.

 

Yeah...   “insubordination”...


Advanced Class '78 was our first Advanced Class...and that's probably the where and when of the first really big red flag that popped up for my wife and I. My wife got into a big argument with her Twig coordinator over the technical details of how to get born again of the wrong-seed - the Twig Coordinator was emphatic that there was a specific ritual one had to follow...whereas my wife's side of the argument was like my own, that there was nothing much taught on exactly HOW one gets born again of the wrong-seed...- I talked about this incident on another thread  here     -  after you had shared basically the same stuff  mentioned in your above post  -- -   here   -  I really appreciate you providing the backstory...man oh man TWI is one helluva toxic power structure!

...years later when we went in the corps, my wife and I would talk of how we were going to make a difference – we would not become one of those obstinate, dogmatic, overbearing leaders who don't know what they're talking about like her Advanced Class Twig coordinator...But that incident was just a microcosm of the madness of Way-world... for me it took a few years after leaving TWI and flexing some brain cells to peel back the layers of nonsense and see their hypocrisy...I used to believe wierwille's propaganda that “the accuracy and integrity of The Word is always at stake”...but reflecting on any incidents where his authority or teaching was challenged or his suggestions, directives, orders weren't followed to a T, or even if there was a failure in the chain of command  –  what was really at stake was the  risk of losing such a tight control over his subordinates...The Advanced Class was mythological gobbledygook filled with tales of yore (wierwille's embellished past) , boogeymen and all sorts of bugaboos  (devil spirits, wrong-seed and demon-possessed) and the promise of wielding magical powers yourself - just another one of his bull$hit classes designed to  mesmerize his adoring fans who lived vicariously through wierwille's delusions of grandeur. 

Edited by T-Bone
I need an Advanced Class on editing
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"After seeing how the first three "manifestations" were practiced and critiqued until it was seen that we could do them, the lack of any practical instruction in the other six was a letdown."

 

[As we've discussed since then, it's totally possible to FAKE "the utterance manifestations" and to think you're doing the real thing!  It takes a lot of priming, a lot of groupthink, and a willingness to try.   So, lots of practical instruction on how to "speak in tongues at will" was easy to fake.  Lots of practical instruction on the working of miracles was hard as heck to fake!    Yes,  hindsight is 20/20, so it's easy to see now.]

 

 

"And was there every a definition of the "manifestation of believing" that made even a little sense? "

[As a whole, the definitions were overly wordy, overly stilted, and deliberately expansive.  vpw took definitions Leonard had written, then added lots of polysyllabic words until it didn't resemble the original.   He didn't UNDERSTAND them, just piled stuff on.  That's why he piled a lot of words onto "word of knowledge" without addressing that it said it was about something it was "impossible to know by the 5 senses."  This part of the definition tripped up a LOT of people, and led some people to think that you were UNABLE to ask God for knowledge if it was something it was "POSSIBLE" you might have found out by your 5 senses.  That one was so egregious that geer felt the need to fix that one- and eliminated that particular source of confusion.  (He then went on to making new sources of confusion by doing things like taking out "may" from the definition- which meant people thought that operating "word of knowledge" guaranteed you'd get an answer from God- as if it COMPELLED Him to to answer!   The actuality, if there is one, is that it's the supernatural ability to communicate directly with Him, and request direct responses at His discretion.  But being able to directly communicate a request to  The Creator of the Universe would definitely be supernatural whether or not He wished to respond.     vpw didn't UNDERSTAND "the manifestation of believing", so he piled on syllables until he could obscure the issue.]

 

"Apparently, this was wierwille's modus operandi.  In closed-door settings (generally, with the way corps).....wierwille would sulk and opine his "having to deal with undisciplined corps."  Yet, it was wierwille who was off-track and undisciplined.  With Drambuie in hand, wierwille was a bully. "

 

[In public, vpw was SUCH a nice guy. When the cameras were off, he was a bully.]

 

"At this advanced class, we were led on a number of tangents.....1) The Thirteenth Tribe, 2) The Marxist Minstrels, 3) The Illuminati, 4) None Dare Call It Conspiracy, 5) Babylon Mystery Revealed, 6) Seed of the Serpent, 7) Major Denominations All Have Seed Boys In Charge, 8) 16 Keys to Walking By the Spirit, 9) Definitions to all Nine Manifestations, etc. "

 

[As you now know, almost all of that was NONSENSE and a WASTE OF TIME. vpw's inability to tell that says a lot about him.  But it sure did fill a bunch of hours of the class, didn't it?  And some people felt privileged to have the secret, inside story on things, didn't they?   (No, I'm not going to get political.)  ]

 

"Lots of reading Old Testament records.  The Advanced Class is to bring people to full, spiritual maturity......so, were we NOW fully, spiritually mature to stand on our own two feet without twi ?  NOPE.

Each class, each program leads to another.....and then another.  The Way International's dirty little secret is that you will always be a STUDENT....and they will always be your LEADERS and TEACHERS.  In this setup, you are always subordinate to them.  You are dependent on them to "teach you the word."  YOU must abundantly share 20% (at least) for the rest of your life to be in their good graces to *receive God's Word on a silver platter.*"

 

[And yet, Leonard's class- which it plagiarized- was meant SPECIFICALLY for ministers so they could complete parts of their education so they could go minister to others in their own congregations, standing on their own without another class nor its teacher. vpw added that "dependency"part all on his own.]

 

 

"I had a lot of disappointing times while I was in The Way. The Advanced Class, though, was miles beyond disappointing. It was depressing. When the class concluded, I felt like a total failure because the  expectation of being able to operate the manifestations just wasn't happening for me. At the same time, everyone else seemed to be moving ahead full speed. I felt like I not only failed the class, but all the time and effort I had devoted to preparing for it was in vain. Well, it's only in retrospect that I understand I didn't fail the class, the class failed me. I kind of chuckle now thinking about how seriously I took all that nonsense.  "

 

{So, you think all the people who were moving ahead, you think they were faking it because they thought they were the only ones who weren't moving ahead?  Or do you think they really thought they were getting somewhere?]

 

 

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"Advanced Class '78 was our first Advanced Class...and that's probably the where and when of the first really big red flag that popped up for my wife and I. My wife got into a big argument with her Twig coordinator over the technical details of how to get born again of the wrong-seed - the Twig Coordinator was emphatic that there was a specific ritual one had to follow...whereas my wife's side of the argument was like my own, that there was nothing much taught on exactly HOW one gets born again of the wrong-seed..."

 

wierwille's scary little bugaboo didn't even make sense on paper.  Look- if we accept his premise that the devil can only make inferior copies of anything the true God makes,  and can only corrupt or twist what's already there,  then there was nothing before Pentecost of which to make an inferior copy!    If the flesh and the spirit really are separate and don't overlap  (you can't punch a devil-spirit with a flesh fist), then what flesh-and-blood ceremony could PERMANENTLY attach ONE to the OTHER?   Further, there's no "percentage" in it for a smart "devil" to make an obvious target like that!    In all the other schema, we see a person, and we see a spirit, and sometimes the spirit goes to the person, and they interact- a man speaks words from the spirit by possession, etc.  Then the spirit leaves for a time- short or long.  There's no benefit to keeping one spirit stuck with one person all the time, especially when it's easy to just kill the flesh-and-blood person.  That raises the obvious question of what that would do to a spirit that was locked into a person who, say, was burned at the stake or beheaded. 

So, there's no point for a devil to come up with the system in the first place, nor to lock one of his agents in place needlessly.   He's not known for loyalty- he's known for feigning loyalty and abandoning people as soon as it's expedient (just like vpw-  hey, maybe that's how vpw got knowledge of spirits, by direct, long-term contact...)    A specific ritual makes NO sense.  Flesh-and-blood rituals to affect a spirit shouldn't have an effect.  it's also a twi thing that the devil tailors his approach to the times and the cultures-  so a ritual used by ancient Etruscans would not resemble  a ritual used by anyone in the 20th century.     The subject was vague because wierwille made the whole thing up from whole cloth.   Supposedly, the Old Testament equivalent were "sons of Belial" - but by usage, the only thing we ever see about them is that they have a reputation for being DRUNKEN FOOLS.  (Hey, I recognize wierwille again!)    Everything else was what vpw himself referred to as "private interpretation",  and is also known among other people as "bull$h1tting everyone."

So, one does not "get born again of the wrong seed" because there is NO SUCH THING.  It did not appear in the Bible.  It was simply an occult (hidden) doctrine of wierwille's, who used its existence as another control mechanism because he, supposedly, had the inside track. After all, there were no other ministries or churches out there you could learn about this!  :)  So, he invented a new, secret thing, and congratulated you all for being mature enough to understand it. ]

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Yes, wierwille used well-worn tactics in his modus operandi.  In closed-door settings, he would opine and deflect attention from himself onto "undisciplined" corps...... and play the victim.  His corps letters utilized this manipulative tactic over and over again.  But on occasions when he could not contain his anger, wierwille's aggressive outbursts were sadistic (deriving pleasure through others undergoing discomfort or pain).  He would continue his tirade to exact a level of fear, humiliation and discomfort over the individual(s) that satisfied his malignant narcissism.

In hindsight, it is apparent that wierwille's passive/aggressive tactics were a major portion of his narcissistic playbook.  For example:  The 1979 Advanced Class in Athens, Ohio was a big event with wierwille teaching live the advanced class.  Promotions were going out nearly a year in advance.  Like at Olympics, wierwille wanted a "torch" to be carried from Rome City, Indiana to Athens, Ohio.....ie *Rome to Athens*..... to symbolize this great event.  Small groups of runners were assembled and assigned to run thru key towns and cities to rally attention...... and in Van Wert, wierwille wanted 40 RUNNERS to run this section.  Why?  Wierwille wanted to *stick it to his old church and congregants* that his ministry was thriving.  Why do I remember this so vividly?  I was one of the forty runners who ran thru Van Wert that day.

In my opinion, wierwille was defined by malignant narcissism........ 
All decisions and actions had wierwille's self-absorbed ego front and center...... 

.

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5 hours ago, WordWolf said:

"Advanced Class '78 was our first Advanced Class...and that's probably the where and when of the first really big red flag that popped up for my wife and I. My wife got into a big argument with her Twig coordinator over the technical details of how to get born again of the wrong-seed - the Twig Coordinator was emphatic that there was a specific ritual one had to follow...whereas my wife's side of the argument was like my own, that there was nothing much taught on exactly HOW one gets born again of the wrong-seed..."

 

wierwille's scary little bugaboo didn't even make sense on paper.  Look- if we accept his premise that the devil can only make inferior copies of anything the true God makes,  and can only corrupt or twist what's already there,  then there was nothing before Pentecost of which to make an inferior copy!    If the flesh and the spirit really are separate and don't overlap  (you can't punch a devil-spirit with a flesh fist), then what flesh-and-blood ceremony could PERMANENTLY attach ONE to the OTHER?   Further, there's no "percentage" in it for a smart "devil" to make an obvious target like that!    In all the other schema, we see a person, and we see a spirit, and sometimes the spirit goes to the person, and they interact- a man speaks words from the spirit by possession, etc.  Then the spirit leaves for a time- short or long.  There's no benefit to keeping one spirit stuck with one person all the time, especially when it's easy to just kill the flesh-and-blood person.  That raises the obvious question of what that would do to a spirit that was locked into a person who, say, was burned at the stake or beheaded. 

So, there's no point for a devil to come up with the system in the first place, nor to lock one of his agents in place needlessly.   He's not known for loyalty- he's known for feigning loyalty and abandoning people as soon as it's expedient (just like vpw-  hey, maybe that's how vpw got knowledge of spirits, by direct, long-term contact...)    A specific ritual makes NO sense.  Flesh-and-blood rituals to affect a spirit shouldn't have an effect.  it's also a twi thing that the devil tailors his approach to the times and the cultures-  so a ritual used by ancient Etruscans would not resemble  a ritual used by anyone in the 20th century.     The subject was vague because wierwille made the whole thing up from whole cloth.   Supposedly, the Old Testament equivalent were "sons of Belial" - but by usage, the only thing we ever see about them is that they have a reputation for being DRUNKEN FOOLS.  (Hey, I recognize wierwille again!)    Everything else was what vpw himself referred to as "private interpretation",  and is also known among other people as "bull$h1tting everyone."

So, one does not "get born again of the wrong seed" because there is NO SUCH THING.  It did not appear in the Bible.  It was simply an occult (hidden) doctrine of wierwille's, who used its existence as another control mechanism because he, supposedly, had the inside track. After all, there were no other ministries or churches out there you could learn about this!  :)  So, he invented a new, secret thing, and congratulated you all for being mature enough to understand it. ]

WordWolf, 

great analysis for debunking wierwille's wrong-seed teaching!  

...Consider the fact that the session on the unforgivable sin was pulled from the PFAL class proper, and was only available for viewing some time later – after a new student “successfully” completed the PFAL class (i.e. they spoke in tongues) and has been reviewing all the class material and attending Twig Fellowships for a while...We can only speculate why wierwille yanked it from the class proper – my guess is that there were some unintended consequences...maybe he was aware of some folks having issues with thinking they might have committed the unforgivable sin... I remember reading on Grease Spot someone shared of a person they knew who was convinced they committed the unforgivable sin – so they committed suicide... ...how awful !!!! such tragedy and destruction wrought by wierwille's twisted doctrines!  :realmad:  :CUSSING:  :realmad:    :CUSSING:

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I can see why they had this "no debt" thing - at least, for staff.  People were paid on a "need" basis.  And they might "need" to pay back student loans. 

So if someone said they had a need to be paid $xx for their needed food, clothing, household essentials, car, etc AND also the "needed" $xx to service their student debt, then TWI would be paying off someone's debt in a very overt way.  Rather than giving a proper salary for someone to deal with in a responsible manner, it was part of another way to pry into personal finances.

And then, of course, the trickle-down effect to minions...

No idea why it should be applied to Adv Class students.  Few of them would go on staff at any point, especially not immediately after taking the AC.  

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19 hours ago, WordWolf said:

.......

So, one does not "get born again of the wrong seed" because there is NO SUCH THING.  It did not appear in the Bible.  It was simply an occult (hidden) doctrine of wierwille's, who used its existence as another control mechanism because he, supposedly, had the inside track. After all, there were no other ministries or churches out there you could learn about this!  :)  So, he invented a new, secret thing, and congratulated you all for being mature enough to understand it. ]

I suppose that if we delve much deeper into this "born of the wrong seed" topic.....it becomes a doctrinal issue.  But I distinctly remember that when this topic surfaced in the early 90s, many brought up these SAME ISSUES.....i.e. there is no such thing as getting "born of the wrong seed."  Whereupon martindale would launch into this analogous description that it was like "a permanent doorstop that kept one's mind open to devil spirit infiltration continuously."  Scriptural references were added....."Thou will keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee" and others.

Wierwille was known for highlighting his "lockbox" teaching....[probably for a whole different reason, wink/wink]....or "learning how to keep the trapdoor shut" [from devil spirit infestation/infiltration].  So, there is some background to this and how it was slipped into the lexicon of twi-verbiage. 

Anywho.....it all seems so far back in my rearview mirror that I can hardly see it anymore.   

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