I just finished quickly reading through a prophecy given by an old poster on this forum. I am sharing his website if anyone is interested in reading it. On it, there is also a link for his YouTube channel where he reads the prophecy.
Why am I sharing it? Because it shows how two Christians, who became close online friends over the past year and a half ago, went in two extreme opposite directions within the past two months - me deciding to walk away from Christianity and him starting to share his fundamentalist prophecies online.
I'm pretty sure most on this thread will reject this all-or-nothing way of thinking. So what is left? How does one decide for themselves which parts are allegories, fiction, myths, hyperboles, etc. and still believe the Bible is God's word?
As it was pointed out to me in Revelation 3:15-22, being lukewarm is not pleasing unto the Lord.
Yeah I do not concur with OS direction and agree that it is extreme. I’m happy for him in his personal life though.
For me to answer the “what is left” question, and to key off the video making fun of people playing with toys, what I find useful is a child like believing mindset and looking for inspiration not consistency or accuracy as what I am reading is a blend of man and God writing. I mean writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly. Or something similar.
Have you ever considered that the lukewarm bit in Revelation might be in the midst of a war with extreme circumstances? I think I even read in a fictional work about Revelation an idea about every believer being martyred for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord.
I don’t find that verse to be a reason to become a zealot.
How one decides which part is inspiration is a personal journey. It is to me called faith this personal journey.
But if some jack@$$ wants to describe it as me being a kid playing with toys by myself and he’s ok with it then good. I’m glad he’s happy with himself being funny and condescending to others beliefs. It just makes him a jack@$$ atheist with a mic.
OS is perfectly welcome to post. He is not welcome to LIE.
DWBH used this site to libel people. He proceeded to harass me on various social media sites in an effort to defame me before my friends, colleagues and peers. I DARE you talk to him personally about his relationship with me and why we're no longer on speaking terms. Bring a tape recorder.
You called me a dog and got mad at MY vitriol? Please.
GET
YOURSELF
Quote
Butif some jack@$$ wants to describe it as me being a kid playing with toys by myself and he’s ok with it then good. I’mglad he’s happy withhimself being funny and condescending to others beliefs. It just makes him a jack@$$ atheist witha mic.
Once again, people are perfectly welcome to post all sorts of views about all sorts of things. What you want is not equal treatment, but privilege. You want to be able to call us arrogant and dogs and closed-minded and biased [and I see now that you have decided to escalate the name-calling], and you want us to not respond.
You and I had it out, we made our peace, and that was that. But for some reason this thread has you gobsmacked to the point where you can't disagree with Charity or with me without being personal about it, calling us names and accusing us of lacking your open-mindedness (which is not open-minded at all).
This is not how people with evidence on their side behave. This is how one behaves when one has lost a debate centered on ideas but still wants to appear to have some standing.
Like I said, I asked the other mods to have a look so that I am not moderating myself.
One thing I have tried to be careful about, and you guys can "report" me (or others) if I'm wrong, is trying to keep the "critical" posts off the main doctrinal sections (Matters of Faith and Doctrinal). Nonbelievers are just as welcome to post there, but those pages are set up to give believers space to explore without our constant interference.
An unbelieving perspective would threaten to derail EVERY doctrinal discussion if not for that fact (just like Mike's thesis derails any discussion that's not already about Mike's thesis. It just does. I'm not judging).
Bottom line, I think, is that we have a doctrinal section where people are talking about Genesis 1, Purgatory, the Trinity, what God thinks of you, the cry of triumph, the unforgivable sin and numerous other issues. Sometimes a non-believer's view is tangentially relevant. Usually it's not. When I participate in those threads, it's typically minimal, makes its point, and then backs away. I think ANYONE can comment on the Bible on its own terms. You don't need to be a believer. For example, I think "My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me" was, doctrinally, Jesus quoting Psalm 22 and not making up some new expression for VPW to clarify 2,000 years later. And I said that on the thread. Because it's a doctrinal thread.
I also believe that never happened. I did not say that on the thread. Because it's off topic and inappropriate. So I kept that to myself because it was beside the point.
And we could do that with LOTS of issues.
Point is, the notion that Christians are unwelcome at GSC and that their beliefs are constantly under fire to get shouted down is a false one. It is untrue. The reason posters seem to feel that way is that they come into the atheist subforum and think that we are somehow obliged to give Christian beliefs a deference to which no other religion is entitled. This isn't even remotely complicated: The atheist subforum exists to give people like me a chance to demonstrate why I believe what I do without getting in YOUR space. It gives people like Charity a place to "come out" and share their journey. It gives people like Stayed Too Long a place to vent. All without disrupting honest discussions about doctrine.
You cannot come on this forum unless you do so voluntarily, and you don't get to come here and issue blanket denunciations of people for the crime of disagreeing with you.
Calling someone "arrogant" or "egotistical" is namecalling. It does not further discussion. It is not constructive criticism. It's judgmental namecalling, and if it had been handled the way it should at its first occurrence, perhaps that would have been more efficient. But then I would be accused of censorship, which happened ANYWAY.
If you want to challenge my ideas, then challenge them. But YOU CHOSE TO MAKE THIS ABOUT ME by attacking ME and not by engaging in an honest discussion. When you saw you had no logical or reasonable grounds to disagree with me, you went STRAIGHT to the personal attacks.
And it's not the first time.
It's like you walked into an R-rated movie and were shocked that it had bad language, violence and nudity. Dude, you walked into an R-rated movie. What did you THINK you were going to find?
But then you take it too far and you claim there are no PG movies anymore, no G movies. When there are. You just keep buying tickets to the R-rated ones. That's on you.
You don't like it, you stay out. Go watch another movie. Go participate in another discussion. There are dozens, and the atheists on this site are pretty much leaving them alone.
For me to answer the “what is left” question, and to key off the video making fun of people playing with toys, what I find useful is a child like believing mindset and looking for inspiration not consistency or accuracy as what I am reading is a blend of man and God writing. I mean writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly. Or something similar.
The decision to no longer be a fundamentalist like twi taught us to be has opened up the choice like yours to look to the bible for inspiration not consistency or accuracy. (Does saying this mean you think parts of the bible are not consistent or accurate?) And instead of needing to take literally that “all scripture is God inspired and is profitable,” you can see the bible as being a blend of man (writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly) and God.
Christians having different criteria for what they decide to believe and what they decide to disregard. It's a pick-and-choose way of defining God in their lives. That’s why I previously called this process as “Build a God” after the idea of “Build a Bear.”
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
I know there are other places to receive inspiration without the bible and all the baggage attached to it.
Ok, the overwhelming bulk of this thread has been superb discussion about Charity’s topic. Unfortunately there has been a bit of distraction that has gone on and those have devolved into rule violations of personal attacks and name calling. Those MUST stop beginning NOW.
I have chosen not to remove or edit those posts, but if more appear after this warning those will be removed in their entirety and the violator may be subject to requiring admin approval for future posts here.
Remember no matter what we hold dear in our beliefs, or are affirming, searching for, or developing of those beliefs, we each are free to participate in any topic in any forum at GSC. The only restrictions are to stay within the rules and preferably have something to do with the topic as it will develop.
Disagree with another as much as you want, but do not attack each other personally. You do this by expressing your own beliefs or basis, not by impugning another’s character or integrity. Use the “report” button rather than attacking back and forth.
Have you ever considered that the lukewarm bit in Revelation might be in the midst of a war with extreme circumstances? I think I even read in a fictional work about Revelation an idea about every believer being martyred for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord.
I don’t find that verse to be a reason to become a zealot.
The lukewarm bit and needing to be a zealot are also found in what Jesus said in the gospels about following him.Some may say Jesus was speaking in hyperbole but when you put them all together, I think his consistent message of “all or nothing” is quite clear.
And while Christians may choose to not take these verses literally, maybe because they require too much of followers, there are many who in their love for God have decided to believe them as they are written. And unfortunately, many narcissists have begun ministries/cults to attract these types of believers and go on to abuse them every which way. Most posters on GSC could say "been there, experienced that."
As an atheist, I see religion (by way of the bible) as a means of controlling people. Atheists are often automatically accused of wanting to be one so they can to be free to sin. However, to make that kind of generalization is being very close minded and ignorant of the way they do live their lives. (P.S. Being a Christian does not guarantee any have stopped living in "sin".)
~~~~~~~~~
Here are the verses I mentioned above.
In the gospels:
- To the young man who had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus said he also needed to sell everything he had and give it to the poor.
- Jesus said, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life
- To a man who asked to bury his father before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.”
- To a man who wanted to say good bye to his family before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
- (Think of Abraham being willing to literally sacrifice his son when you read this quote.) Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
- When being told his mother and brethren wanted to speak with him (seemingly out of concern for him), Jesus said, “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,] “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
- Before ascending to heaven, Jesus saidto his apostles, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
The decision to no longer be a fundamentalist like twi taught us to be has opened up the choice like yours to look to the bible for inspiration not consistency or accuracy. (Does saying this mean you think parts of the bible are not consistent or accurate?) And instead of needing to take literally that “all scripture is God inspired and is profitable,” you can see the bible as being a blend of man (writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly) and God.
Christians having different criteria for what they decide to believe and what they decide to disregard. It's a pick-and-choose way of defining God in their lives. That’s why I previously called this process as “Build a God” after the idea of “Build a Bear.”
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
I know there are other places to receive inspiration without the bible and all the baggage attached to it.
Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome:
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused?
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
Agree; no originals exist that we know of?
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief?
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this.
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
The lukewarm bit and needing to be a zealot are also found in what Jesus said in the gospels about following him.Some may say Jesus was speaking in hyperbole but when you put them all together, I think his consistent message of “all or nothing” is quite clear.
And while Christians may choose to not take these verses literally, maybe because they require too much of followers, there are many who in their love for God have decided to believe them as they are written. And unfortunately, many narcissists have begun ministries/cults to attract these types of believers and go on to abuse them every which way. Most posters on GSC could say "been there, experienced that."
As an atheist, I see religion (by way of the bible) as a means of controlling people. Atheists are often automatically accused of wanting to be one so they can to be free to sin. However, to make that kind of generalization is being very close minded and ignorant of the way they do live their lives. (P.S. Being a Christian does not guarantee any have stopped living in "sin".)
~~~~~~~~~
Here are the verses I mentioned above.
In the gospels:
- To the young man who had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus said he also needed to sell everything he had and give it to the poor.
- Jesus said, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life
- To a man who asked to bury his father before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.”
- To a man who wanted to say good bye to his family before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
- (Think of Abraham being willing to literally sacrifice his son when you read this quote.) Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
- When being told his mother and brethren wanted to speak with him (seemingly out of concern for him), Jesus said, “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,] “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
- Before ascending to heaven, Jesus saidto his apostles, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost:
'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'
No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost:
'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'
I'm asking sincerely if there were times you struggled with an answer you believed you received after saying this prayer. Have there ever been feelings of guilt, doubt, confusion or fear as a result of listening for answers?
The hard part of this- after 14 pages one must spend probably 14 hours reading and researching to contribute what is the word..
meaningfully.
I prefer short cuts. Read the first page, the second.. skim through the next to last and last page..
If I could really retire, I would do better here.
OK. So..
One does not really lose one's religion. I think that we are supposed to actually improve it. My opinion. So far- I have seen no improvement over Matthew 22:37ff. Just a lot of justification why not to do it- yep.. got our reasons and all.
We don't have much time to straighten ourselves out here.. life is but a vapor.
The decision to no longer be a fundamentalist like twi taught us to be has opened up the choice like yours to look to the bible for inspiration not consistency or accuracy. (Does saying this mean you think parts of the bible are not consistent or accurate?) And instead of needing to take literally that “all scripture is God inspired and is profitable,” you can see the bible as being a blend of man (writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly) and God.
Christians having different criteria for what they decide to believe and what they decide to disregard. It's a pick-and-choose way of defining God in their lives. That’s why I previously called this process as “Build a God” after the idea of “Build a Bear.”
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
I know there are other places to receive inspiration without the bible and all the baggage attached to it.
A lot to quote but- I really don't agree that TWI was ANYTHING "fundamental" in the Christian arena. By no means..
Other than a claim of being such.
We'd have to go into the abortion issue here.. and politically it is probably forbidden.
Just saying.. take the abortion issue. The Fundamentalists regard it as a work of the Devil..
TWI- Disagree. It has its uses- especially if a possible son of a man of God is to be illegitimately born. Well.. that was the Old TWI religion. What does the organization think now?
That is just... the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome:
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?
Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this.
It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)
The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused?
The first gift from God (and the one all future gifts are dependent on) is salvation, but since there is a requirement attached (that you must make Jesus your Lord), it is not a free gift. If that requirement is not met, there is no salvation and one remains condemned to death/hell.
The way God set everything up from the very beginning in Genesis 2 was conditional on obedience and the result of the first sign of non-compliance was death. What parent would set up such a system with their child?
A lot to quote but- I really don't agree that TWI was ANYTHING "fundamental" in the Christian arena. By no means..
Other than a claim of being such.
We'd have to go into the abortion issue here.. and politically it is probably forbidden.
Plus another half dozen issues..
TWI fundamental.. I don't think so.
I used the word fundamentalist because it means believing the bible is the literal word of God and that it is inherently accurate. This was how vp wanted us to view the bible, but you're right in that he felt free to change it whenever it suited his fancy. I think because of the former, many were gullible to accept the latter.
The hard part of this- after 14 pages one must spend probably 14 hours reading and researching to contribute what is the word..
meaningfully.
I prefer short cuts. Read the first page, the second.. skim through the next to last and last page..
If I could really retire, I would do better here.
OK. So..
One does not really lose one's religion. I think that we are supposed to actually improve it. My opinion. So far- I have seen no improvement over Matthew 22:37ff. Just a lot of justification why not to do it- yep.. got our reasons and all.
We don't have much time to straighten ourselves out here.. life is but a vapor.
After starting the thread, I wanted to change the title to "letting go" instead of "losing" but wasn't sure if that was possible.
I never used to have a problem with Matthew 22:37-39 - what could be wrong where love is concerned. However, the part I used to overlook or ignore before, now stands out - is it love when you are commanded to do so with there being negative consequences when you don't?
Just saying.. take the abortion issue. The Fundamentalists regard it as a work of the Devil..
TWI- Disagree. It has its uses- especially if a possible son of a man of God is to be illegitimately born. Well.. that was the Old TWI religion. What does the organization think now?
That is just... the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
...possible son or daughter. So effing true and so effing bad.
I'm asking sincerely if there were times you struggled with an answer you believed you received after saying this prayer. Have there ever been feelings of guilt, doubt, confusion or fear as a result of listening for answers?
No, and no. But "answers" aren't always there for me either.
Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this.
It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them,at the same time,to be willing to do his good pleasure.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, asye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)
Agree, and agree. The first one, I don't know if it's ok with God to believe one "translation" over another; I think it's one of those mysteries but I do believe that God will be judging that from what he sees in our hearts. The second post, agree, eternal life comes with conditions. Thx for the correction.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
74
34
74
166
Popular Days
May 18
36
May 13
28
May 16
24
May 23
22
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 74 posts
cman 34 posts
Nathan_Jr 74 posts
Charity 166 posts
Popular Days
May 18 2024
36 posts
May 13 2024
28 posts
May 16 2024
24 posts
May 23 2024
22 posts
Popular Posts
waysider
Yeah, see. That kinda leaves us between a rock and a hard place. We were either following the teachings of a man with devil spirits or he was wrong about what he taught. That means he could have been
waysider
When you consider the irony in this, it's almost comical in a perversely twisted way. Want something from God? Follow a complicated formula. Make sure to cross every T and dot every I. Want
Raf
William Lane Craig is the master of the Gish Gallop, a form of debate in which you efficiently spout as much bulls hit in the time allotted as you possibly can. Since it takes more time to clean bulls
Posted Images
chockfull
Yeah I do not concur with OS direction and agree that it is extreme. I’m happy for him in his personal life though.
For me to answer the “what is left” question, and to key off the video making fun of people playing with toys, what I find useful is a child like believing mindset and looking for inspiration not consistency or accuracy as what I am reading is a blend of man and God writing. I mean writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly. Or something similar.
Have you ever considered that the lukewarm bit in Revelation might be in the midst of a war with extreme circumstances? I think I even read in a fictional work about Revelation an idea about every believer being martyred for confessing Jesus Christ as their Lord.
I don’t find that verse to be a reason to become a zealot.
How one decides which part is inspiration is a personal journey. It is to me called faith this personal journey.
But if some jack@$$ wants to describe it as me being a kid playing with toys by myself and he’s ok with it then good. I’m glad he’s happy with himself being funny and condescending to others beliefs. It just makes him a jack@$$ atheist with a mic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
skyrider passed away last year.
Carry on.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Clearly I killed skyrider.
OS is perfectly welcome to post. He is not welcome to LIE.
DWBH used this site to libel people. He proceeded to harass me on various social media sites in an effort to defame me before my friends, colleagues and peers. I DARE you talk to him personally about his relationship with me and why we're no longer on speaking terms. Bring a tape recorder.
You called me a dog and got mad at MY vitriol? Please.
GET
YOURSELF
Once again, people are perfectly welcome to post all sorts of views about all sorts of things. What you want is not equal treatment, but privilege. You want to be able to call us arrogant and dogs and closed-minded and biased [and I see now that you have decided to escalate the name-calling], and you want us to not respond.
You and I had it out, we made our peace, and that was that. But for some reason this thread has you gobsmacked to the point where you can't disagree with Charity or with me without being personal about it, calling us names and accusing us of lacking your open-mindedness (which is not open-minded at all).
This is not how people with evidence on their side behave. This is how one behaves when one has lost a debate centered on ideas but still wants to appear to have some standing.
Like I said, I asked the other mods to have a look so that I am not moderating myself.
Edited by RafLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
One thing I have tried to be careful about, and you guys can "report" me (or others) if I'm wrong, is trying to keep the "critical" posts off the main doctrinal sections (Matters of Faith and Doctrinal). Nonbelievers are just as welcome to post there, but those pages are set up to give believers space to explore without our constant interference.
An unbelieving perspective would threaten to derail EVERY doctrinal discussion if not for that fact (just like Mike's thesis derails any discussion that's not already about Mike's thesis. It just does. I'm not judging).
Bottom line, I think, is that we have a doctrinal section where people are talking about Genesis 1, Purgatory, the Trinity, what God thinks of you, the cry of triumph, the unforgivable sin and numerous other issues. Sometimes a non-believer's view is tangentially relevant. Usually it's not. When I participate in those threads, it's typically minimal, makes its point, and then backs away. I think ANYONE can comment on the Bible on its own terms. You don't need to be a believer. For example, I think "My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me" was, doctrinally, Jesus quoting Psalm 22 and not making up some new expression for VPW to clarify 2,000 years later. And I said that on the thread. Because it's a doctrinal thread.
I also believe that never happened. I did not say that on the thread. Because it's off topic and inappropriate. So I kept that to myself because it was beside the point.
And we could do that with LOTS of issues.
Point is, the notion that Christians are unwelcome at GSC and that their beliefs are constantly under fire to get shouted down is a false one. It is untrue. The reason posters seem to feel that way is that they come into the atheist subforum and think that we are somehow obliged to give Christian beliefs a deference to which no other religion is entitled. This isn't even remotely complicated: The atheist subforum exists to give people like me a chance to demonstrate why I believe what I do without getting in YOUR space. It gives people like Charity a place to "come out" and share their journey. It gives people like Stayed Too Long a place to vent. All without disrupting honest discussions about doctrine.
You cannot come on this forum unless you do so voluntarily, and you don't get to come here and issue blanket denunciations of people for the crime of disagreeing with you.
Calling someone "arrogant" or "egotistical" is namecalling. It does not further discussion. It is not constructive criticism. It's judgmental namecalling, and if it had been handled the way it should at its first occurrence, perhaps that would have been more efficient. But then I would be accused of censorship, which happened ANYWAY.
If you want to challenge my ideas, then challenge them. But YOU CHOSE TO MAKE THIS ABOUT ME by attacking ME and not by engaging in an honest discussion. When you saw you had no logical or reasonable grounds to disagree with me, you went STRAIGHT to the personal attacks.
And it's not the first time.
It's like you walked into an R-rated movie and were shocked that it had bad language, violence and nudity. Dude, you walked into an R-rated movie. What did you THINK you were going to find?
But then you take it too far and you claim there are no PG movies anymore, no G movies. When there are. You just keep buying tickets to the R-rated ones. That's on you.
You don't like it, you stay out. Go watch another movie. Go participate in another discussion. There are dozens, and the atheists on this site are pretty much leaving them alone.
Why are you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
The decision to no longer be a fundamentalist like twi taught us to be has opened up the choice like yours to look to the bible for inspiration not consistency or accuracy. (Does saying this mean you think parts of the bible are not consistent or accurate?) And instead of needing to take literally that “all scripture is God inspired and is profitable,” you can see the bible as being a blend of man (writing by inspiration while seeing through a glass darkly) and God.
Christians having different criteria for what they decide to believe and what they decide to disregard. It's a pick-and-choose way of defining God in their lives. That’s why I previously called this process as “Build a God” after the idea of “Build a Bear.”
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
I know there are other places to receive inspiration without the bible and all the baggage attached to it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Modgellan
I am temporarily locking this thread to further comments while I catch up and review it
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Modgellan
Ok, the overwhelming bulk of this thread has been superb discussion about Charity’s topic. Unfortunately there has been a bit of distraction that has gone on and those have devolved into rule violations of personal attacks and name calling. Those MUST stop beginning NOW.
I have chosen not to remove or edit those posts, but if more appear after this warning those will be removed in their entirety and the violator may be subject to requiring admin approval for future posts here.
Remember no matter what we hold dear in our beliefs, or are affirming, searching for, or developing of those beliefs, we each are free to participate in any topic in any forum at GSC. The only restrictions are to stay within the rules and preferably have something to do with the topic as it will develop.
Disagree with another as much as you want, but do not attack each other personally. You do this by expressing your own beliefs or basis, not by impugning another’s character or integrity. Use the “report” button rather than attacking back and forth.
The thread is now reopened.
-Modgellan
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
The lukewarm bit and needing to be a zealot are also found in what Jesus said in the gospels about following him. Some may say Jesus was speaking in hyperbole but when you put them all together, I think his consistent message of “all or nothing” is quite clear.
And while Christians may choose to not take these verses literally, maybe because they require too much of followers, there are many who in their love for God have decided to believe them as they are written. And unfortunately, many narcissists have begun ministries/cults to attract these types of believers and go on to abuse them every which way. Most posters on GSC could say "been there, experienced that."
~~~~~~~~~
Here are the verses I mentioned above.
In the gospels:
- To the young man who had kept the commandments since his youth, Jesus said he also needed to sell everything he had and give it to the poor.
- Jesus said, “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life
- To a man who asked to bury his father before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.”
- To a man who wanted to say good bye to his family before he committed to following him, Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
- (Think of Abraham being willing to literally sacrifice his son when you read this quote.) Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. He that loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. He that finds his life shall lose it: and he that loses his life for my sake shall find it.
- When being told his mother and brethren wanted to speak with him (seemingly out of concern for him), Jesus said, “Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? [And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said,] “Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”
- Before ascending to heaven, Jesus saidto his apostles, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.”
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome:
Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?”
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?
So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that:
- teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free
The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused?
- is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions
Agree; no originals exist that we know of?
- is not based on ancient myths and philosophers
Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief?
- does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell
Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this.
- consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says.
Agree
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost:
'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I'm asking sincerely if there were times you struggled with an answer you believed you received after saying this prayer. Have there ever been feelings of guilt, doubt, confusion or fear as a result of listening for answers?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
My favorite reference to legitimate Cosmology.. heh
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
The hard part of this- after 14 pages one must spend probably 14 hours reading and researching to contribute what is the word..
meaningfully.
I prefer short cuts. Read the first page, the second.. skim through the next to last and last page..
If I could really retire, I would do better here.
OK. So..
One does not really lose one's religion. I think that we are supposed to actually improve it. My opinion. So far- I have seen no improvement over Matthew 22:37ff. Just a lot of justification why not to do it- yep.. got our reasons and all.
We don't have much time to straighten ourselves out here.. life is but a vapor.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
A lot to quote but- I really don't agree that TWI was ANYTHING "fundamental" in the Christian arena. By no means..
Other than a claim of being such.
We'd have to go into the abortion issue here.. and politically it is probably forbidden.
Plus another half dozen issues..
TWI fundamental.. I don't think so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Just saying.. take the abortion issue. The Fundamentalists regard it as a work of the Devil..
TWI- Disagree. It has its uses- especially if a possible son of a man of God is to be illegitimately born. Well.. that was the Old TWI religion. What does the organization think now?
That is just... the tip of the proverbial iceberg.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
What we need.. heh.
At the end of the fiftieth page, a brief summary..
What the hell are we talking about here.. heh
Don't you know? Nope. Looks pretty interesting though..
God Bless you dear Friends..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this.
It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
The first gift from God (and the one all future gifts are dependent on) is salvation, but since there is a requirement attached (that you must make Jesus your Lord), it is not a free gift. If that requirement is not met, there is no salvation and one remains condemned to death/hell.
The way God set everything up from the very beginning in Genesis 2 was conditional on obedience and the result of the first sign of non-compliance was death. What parent would set up such a system with their child?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
I used the word fundamentalist because it means believing the bible is the literal word of God and that it is inherently accurate. This was how vp wanted us to view the bible, but you're right in that he felt free to change it whenever it suited his fancy. I think because of the former, many were gullible to accept the latter.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I agree, a lot of the phrases used to promote wayism were not main line Christianity
"inherently accurate" was never used in the Lutheran or Southern Baptist teachings
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
After starting the thread, I wanted to change the title to "letting go" instead of "losing" but wasn't sure if that was possible.
I never used to have a problem with Matthew 22:37-39 - what could be wrong where love is concerned. However, the part I used to overlook or ignore before, now stands out - is it love when you are commanded to do so with there being negative consequences when you don't?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Charity
...possible son or daughter. So effing true and so effing bad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
You're supposed to say the magic words: "Modcat5 killed Mufasa."
Then we can change it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
No, and no. But "answers" aren't always there for me either.
Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this.
It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
(The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.)
Agree, and agree. The first one, I don't know if it's ok with God to believe one "translation" over another; I think it's one of those mysteries but I do believe that God will be judging that from what he sees in our hearts. The second post, agree, eternal life comes with conditions. Thx for the correction.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.