Again, I was more involved with an offshoot. Looking back I can say I was NEVER comfortable there. There were red flags all over the place. The teachings towards women were damaging to my psyche. The heart was not there.
I was so narrowminded in my thinking that I was convinced, these people were the ones with the truth. And I was told that more than once too.
I think I left shortly before Waydale came out. After about 7 years. I just got to the point where I was a mess. Emotionally, spiritually, physically. I was drinking and depressed. I just couldn't go there anymore. I couldn't bear the thought of going there. So I stopped.
After I stopped, the fog slowly lifted. I started checking out CES's website, started reading Waydale, and became "enlightened" on where this offshoot mentality (the local one I was attending) was coming from. These people got it from "The Way" duh. I had no idea.
It's been almost 4 years since the last "fellowship" I attended, I think. And I'm still clearing my head on stuff.
I still feel funny talking to Jesus, much less praying to Him. I still can't end a prayer with "in Jesus's name, I have to Add Christ, or add it silently if someone else is praying. I still can't bear to read the bible. I really should get another one. (I like the one Joyce Meyer uses) I have problems listening to even good TV preachers for more than a couple minutes.
I still have to catch myself when I pray. I try to ask God for things instead of thanking Him ahead of time.
There are probably other things too, I just can't think right now.
Being non-corpse TWI did not really maintain any listing of non-corpse to be able to keep track of us.
In 1981 or so, in Connecticut, I was in a 'self-supporting' Twig, that needed a wedding to be performed. The Limb Coordinator (Steve Strezpec) was ordained and had been telling the couple that he would marry them, but he kept puching it out month after month. Finally we confronted him, and he confessed that he had been lying to the couple and had no intention of marrying any couple that was not Way-Corpse-Grads. So I performed the wedding. The following week S.S. came to our fellowship and declared that I was following my spiritual father the adversary and gave me the 'boot'. Being military, I soon transfered to Virginia and got active there. The couple is still together in Washington State.
I ran classes in California and in Scotland, then . . .
In 1993, in Connecticut (again), I was running a twig and again needed a wedding performed. The Limb Coordinator (non-ordained), said that twigs should be self-supporting and he even loaned me a The-Way tape wherein LCM teaches how to perform a wedding. I did this wedding. The following month we got a different corpse-couple as Limb Leaders, and they wigged out that I had been performing weddings, and threw me out. I transfered to Washington.
I ran classes and then . . .
In 1997, in Washington state, I paid a beleiver to paint my house while I went on vacation, during which he searched my house and found books that had been written by Rev. Cummins. I was yelled at for having 'forbidden' writings, and told to burn our library. We refused to burn books, so we were thrown out.
I transfered to Italy and ran classes.
This past return stateside, we have not contacted any local TWI fellowships. So I guess that means that we are 'out'.
It took me 5 years or so just praying and thinking about it, but I thought I would lose my hubby if I left.
Finally it came down to "I'm outta here" even if I do lose hubby. Come to find out that he was thinking the same thing. Boy talk about like-minded, we sure were in that case.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
Dumb question: Do you think it was fear that kept you from talking to you hubby sooner? Fear of his reaction or just fear of making your feelings known at all?
Just.....I think a little of each, plus I was a bit headstrong, and questioned everything they said, which got hubby in trouble, cuz he's supposed to make me shut up (ya right).
They were trying to get him to leave me toward the last because I was getting bolder with leaders.
Example....When told to sell my house by R.S. our region coord. I said sure I will when twi sells headquarters. That went over like a led balloon. lol but hell I still have my home and my hubby.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
TWI maintained that all twigs were "self supporting, self governing, and self propogating". (I know it was a crock, but that's what they said.
When you make the statement that you were in a "self supporting" twig, are you making a distinction between them and other types of twigs?
Interesting about the marriage thing. I knew of several non-ordained or non-Way Corps who performed Way weddings. Our Limb Coordinator in Nebraska in the mid-nineties did one wedding that I know of; when in New York in the late 70's, a the twig leader of an Hispanic twig did a wedding as well. I had never heard of anyone refusing to marry non-Corps, except for your story. Jumpo through hoops and "counselling", yes, but outright refusal, no. Goes to show you how things often would vary depending on what area you were in and who your "leaders" were.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
In early 1983 I got in several arguments with the Limb Coordinator and his wife and stopped going for about seven years.
Got back "in" in 1990.
Almost left again in the late 90's after the Branch Coordinator yelled at my wife and I yelled at him. My wife made it clear that she would not back me up and that she wanted to stay "in" no matter what.
Was put on probation for six months in 1999. Got back "in" in late 1999.
Started questioning practice and then doctrine after the lawsuit was announced in 2000. I started drifting away over the next year and a half. My wife would not listen to my concerns and stayed in when I was finally trhrown out in August 2001.
Even though I was thrown out, and did not leave under my own steam, it was not all that traumatic, since in my heart I had been out for a long time.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Misery started to set in circa 1980. Didn't fly the coop until 1988. Took a long time to get it that God wouldn't hate me if I left. As a matter of fact, He'd probably been telling me to get out since I first wanted to in 1980.
Wish I'd listened, but how would I know? I was convinced it was God's Ministry and God's Calling, so if He told me to get out, I didn't get it because it couldn't seep through my Way Brain.
Got involved in 1974. Went in the 9th corpse, stayed in it until the interim year. Left the field, didn't go to fellowships for about 9 months. Got back in, went wow 81-82. Went to college (a community college, then Arizona State). When PoP came out after Vic died in 85, it was all secretive in our area for a short while. I think that was spring 86. I graduated from ASU in May 86, had to move in August and never went to a twi fellowship after that.
Lots of folks in the Phoenix area left then. Tom Reahard lived in Scottsdale and was one of the leaders of the group the led the big exodus at that time (Ralph D, JAL, Robert Belt, etc.).
Went, for a while to makeshift fellowships but that eventually piddled out. A couple of times when JAL came to town, I went to see him, but mostly out of curiosity. Haven't been to any such fellowship in over a decade.
I figure I heard my heart telling me from the early 1980s that it wasn't what I had originally thought... but I was ready when the exodus came in 86.
We left gradually....what is wierd though is that it took almost ten years AFTER leaving for it to occur to us to examine and recognise the destructive beliefs and mind sets that we still clung so tenatiously to....and false teachings that were still causing great damage.
So even though we were physically *out* .... it was many more years before we actually left twi.
Good point. I think your experience was more a function of the time that you got out. From what you and others who got out when you did have told me, the reasons were primarily practical error, rather than doctrinal. The meltdown following POP, Martindale's demand that everybody line up behind him, right or wrong, so many other things.
Those of us who stayed in (or first got involved) after the mass exodus in the late 80's either didn't know about the practical error and abuses, didn't care, or rationalized them away somehow. So, if we got out, it was more likely to involve doctrinal questioning as well as questioning Martindale's behavior that led to the lawsuit. (This is all from my perspective and personal observation only!)
The M&A class of 2001 had access to the internet and read about abuses going back years, and werea ble to view or participate in threads questioning the doctrinal basis of many of the Way's beliefs
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I'm the opposite of Rascal and similar to Wyteduv. I wanted to leave for many years but my husband didn't. I figured it was best to sit tight and wait rather than force him out when he didn't want to go. That way there'd be no regrets on his part and I couldn't be accused by him or TWI for "making" him leave. In other words, I wanted him to get out on his own terms not mine.
I guess around 1990/1991 I finally saw the proverbial handwriting on the BRC wall. All our really good friends had left already. LCM was out of his "fog" and starting to scream again. Other ex-way leaders were sending us their tapes and newsletters. But, we had good people in our twig who I really loved, so I decided to try it a while longer. I thought maybe things could change. It was okay for a while. We were left alone to teach and run our twig the way we saw fit.
In 1994 or 1995 - LCM started the homo rantings, the no-debt policy, dismissed all the corps who were married to non-corps, canned the Rock and the WOW program, demanded 3x weekly attendance to fellowships (not twigs anymore) and declared everything VP ever taught an "old wineskin". I had to go to his advanced class or I wouldn't be considered an advanced class grad anymore (huh?).
Long story I've told before, but it was horrible. I came home and told hubby that when he was ready to leave, I'd be right behind him.
I stopped listening to tapes. I stopped going to leaders meetings (until we were told we weren't good enough to be coordinating a fellowship anymore after 16 years of doing so). I pretty much stopped every TWI activity except going to fellowship 2x's a week and branch meetings once a month.
I made other friends, became involved in other organizations like PTA. I was primed to leave, I'd cut my ties as much as possible.
Then I discovered Trancechat through an ex-Way friend which was a great source of relief and release for me. Then Waydale appeared and it was only a matter of time. I thought hubby would want out right after the owner of Waydale filed the first lawsuit. But no, he wanted to help. He wrote Rosalie his infamous letter. Instead of being thanked for his concern and desire to help, we were kicked out. The scales fell from hubby's eyes. I couldn't have been happier.
It took from 1995 to 2000 to get from the point when I desperately wanted to leave to the point when we actually got the boot. Those were a very tense 5 years, but I'm glad I waited and waded through them.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
I admire your ability to take a long-term view about your own life and marriage. It is wonderful to see any man or woman put so much thought into their actions.
I had a couple in my fellowship who had a VERY similar experience but it was the wife who wasn't ready to leave. It's saddens me to this day how things turned out. They were wonderful people but up with so much grief. They did have some problem areas in their life but no more so than many of us. The local leaders rode them so hard about it that they finally left. No help, just berating. My impression was the local twit who was the BC was scared to death of them because he couldn't hold a candle to their ability. He would make the most ridiculous statements while trying to sound "deep" or "spiritual." They were just vague statements though that didn't mean much. I think in some ways he got tired of getting called on it and decided to get rid of them.
I started a thread about old TWI relationships on this site because of them. It would be nice to find them again and apologize for not fighting harder to get them help.
If you have any advice about approaching them, I would be very grateful. The berating didn't come from me but I didn't do a whole lot as their FC to stop it either. It's something I regret to this day.
To address what Oakspear said about many people leaving in the late 80's more because of practical error than doctrinal, I've got maybe a little different perspective. While what Oak said is I'm sure probably true for alot of people, there also were doctrinal considerations as well.
There were many people, most of whom that I know about were corps grads, who knew there were "doctrinal problems." Some of the biggies were: the "law of believing," "athletes of the spirit," TWI's take on abortion, tithing, the "operation of the 'manifestations,'" the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and of course the biggie, "adultery."
When John S. got fired because of his paper saying adultery is wrong, it opened up a huge "doctrinal" can of worms. After that, many of the fired and demoted started talking and comparing notes, and I think it was John L. who started right away with exposing the "doctrinal" error to anybody who would listen. And yeah, the practical error came to light as well, simultaneously.
And it took a couple of years to finally "leave." I had dozens of family members involved in TWI, so it wasn't a matter of just me and hubby making our escape. But it turned out ok, with everybody leaving at the same time, (mid to late 80's) more or less.
And alot of that was due to John L and Sue P travelling around doing their meetings and exposing the sordid underbelly of the organization as well as the "personal life" of VPW and his "leadership."
And rascal, I probably would've been in the same boat as you, if I hadn't known about the "doctrinal problems." It just so happened that I was pregnant for most of 1987. Due to complications, I didn't work and was on bed rest for much of that time. John Lynn sent me a ton of material to read, as well as his book list, and I read it all. Most of it was exposing the doctrinal holes in VP's theology.
Talk about "deprograming," sheesh, my brain was thoroughly "reprogramed" after that. Hubby and I tried to alert any and all "believers" we knew about the problems, but unfortunately many called us liars and "pozest." In fact, I still get that same accusation from some to this day. Go figure. -->
Sorry for the sidetrack, just another perspective to add to the mix.
This isn't a side track for me. It shows the progression you went through which is just as valuable. (At least for me) Thanks for sharing some personal insight.
I'm just now becoming aware of some of these issues. Or more accurately, the scale of the problem. I tended to be a typicaly wayfer and either ignore it or rationalize things.
It is probably a good news/bad news thing that I have usually lived some distance from a LC or BC. It kept me away from having to string my chairs for dinner (kidding). However, I also didn't see many people like yourself who were trying to warn others. My old friends had moved away and just seemed to disappear.
I guess some of us have always had bigger mouths than others.
I remember in the mid 90's or so, I think it was after the "sell your house or else" mandate, many more people in our state left TWI. Those of us who had been "out" for awhile, were shocked that anybody was left to leave. Since just about everybody we knew and were close to left in the 80's, I guess we sort of assumed that there wasn't much left of TWI. We went years without really hearing much about TWI and what was happening. It seemed pretty irrelevant to our lives I guess.
And then stuff started appearing on the Internet. I remember Trancechat as well, even though I never posted or anything, I would occasionally read. And the rest is history....
As my sudo name says I left in 1988. But my wife and I started leaving about a year before we made the decision to leave.
Maybe it's because I was a twig coordinator in Massachusetts during the Ralph D years that I got to hear about many probplems and erroneous doctrines of TWI from Ralph, Sue Pierce & JAL in 87-88 timeframe.
It surprises me to hear of folks who were in TWI in the late 80's not knowing about the corruption and false doctrines since letters and tapes were being sent all over.
I know we sent letters explaining all the erroneous doctrines to folks we knew!
But then again, as ex10 pointed out many ignored these letters because those who sent such letters were accused of being "pozest"!!!!
My wife and I actually stayed a year after hearing of the adultry and other stuff, hoping to help change TWI. So as Hope said some wanted to stay for that reason too.
A group of us, mostly corps would get together and discuss what was happening and what we considered biblical questions regarding some of TWI's erroneous doctrines and practices.
We reviewed the Schoenheit Adultry paper, we read various letters from several believers who left and listened to tapes by JAL et al.
We would go and hear Ralph speak and Sue Pierce would come to town and teach.
After about a year of these meetings we all felt TWI was not getting better, but worse. We felt this organization was not where God wanted us.
The decision to leave was not easy and there was a definate transition after leaving, as we were still some what "Way Brained" in our thinking. But after few years, we were seeing the truth more clearly and felt God was blessing us with our decision to leave.
In 1999 a friend told me about Waydale and interestingly, after reading Waydale I found more "Way Brain" in my thinking. I've changed my opinion on some things since then.
By the way, Just thinking, welcome to GREASESPOTCAFE, a belated welcome anyway!
Hiya! I was friends with many of ex's family in that last year before pop. And I owe a tremendous debt to her brother an x14th corpse. He visited me in Tulsa in late '86 and "shared" things he knew from his interium year on staff. Things I couldn't, wouldn't believe. Until he revealed the name of one of the people involved. This person was an "up and comer" a "great believer" and pretty dynamic leader, (yet all the while involved in the "sordid underbelly" of twi.)
This person suddenly just "disappered". No one seemed to know where they were or what happened to them. What happened was they had gotten pregnat by lcm and would not abort the child. So they were caused to "disapper". When ex's brother revealed their name to me all the pieces of the puzzle fell into place and I believed.
I too had had walls and filters up during my entire way involvement. I didn't "buy" every word that came from some leaders mouth as if it "came from God." I too got hold of some of jal's material which solidified my decision to leave. When JS's paper was attacked and he was fired I was already "out" but that proved to me the rightness of my decision.
My thinking was simple...
"If the bot would not publicly admit their sin and repent... then the behavior would continue, the events would be covered up, swept under rthe rug, and life, for them, would go on."
And it did and they're still there. Back then no one bothered you about it... you just didn't come to "twig" anymore. Even the limb and region coordinators left you alone. It was much simpler then it seems. I was in school and moving on with my life. Never gave it any second thoughts AT ALL. Then back in 2000 I got curious about "them". I had heard some things from time to time from jal and a few others. Then I was sitting in front of a computer and just for kicks typed twi into "yahoo". WOW!!! It blew my mind how RIGHT I had been about my reasoning!!
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RottieGrrrl
Again, I was more involved with an offshoot. Looking back I can say I was NEVER comfortable there. There were red flags all over the place. The teachings towards women were damaging to my psyche. The heart was not there.
I was so narrowminded in my thinking that I was convinced, these people were the ones with the truth. And I was told that more than once too.
I think I left shortly before Waydale came out. After about 7 years. I just got to the point where I was a mess. Emotionally, spiritually, physically. I was drinking and depressed. I just couldn't go there anymore. I couldn't bear the thought of going there. So I stopped.
After I stopped, the fog slowly lifted. I started checking out CES's website, started reading Waydale, and became "enlightened" on where this offshoot mentality (the local one I was attending) was coming from. These people got it from "The Way" duh. I had no idea.
It's been almost 4 years since the last "fellowship" I attended, I think. And I'm still clearing my head on stuff.
I still feel funny talking to Jesus, much less praying to Him. I still can't end a prayer with "in Jesus's name, I have to Add Christ, or add it silently if someone else is praying. I still can't bear to read the bible. I really should get another one. (I like the one Joyce Meyer uses) I have problems listening to even good TV preachers for more than a couple minutes.
I still have to catch myself when I pray. I try to ask God for things instead of thanking Him ahead of time.
There are probably other things too, I just can't think right now.
But I've still come a long way I think.
Cat spelled backwards does NOT spell God!
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Galen
I was kicked out multiple times.
Being non-corpse TWI did not really maintain any listing of non-corpse to be able to keep track of us.
In 1981 or so, in Connecticut, I was in a 'self-supporting' Twig, that needed a wedding to be performed. The Limb Coordinator (Steve Strezpec) was ordained and had been telling the couple that he would marry them, but he kept puching it out month after month. Finally we confronted him, and he confessed that he had been lying to the couple and had no intention of marrying any couple that was not Way-Corpse-Grads. So I performed the wedding. The following week S.S. came to our fellowship and declared that I was following my spiritual father the adversary and gave me the 'boot'. Being military, I soon transfered to Virginia and got active there. The couple is still together in Washington State.
I ran classes in California and in Scotland, then . . .
In 1993, in Connecticut (again), I was running a twig and again needed a wedding performed. The Limb Coordinator (non-ordained), said that twigs should be self-supporting and he even loaned me a The-Way tape wherein LCM teaches how to perform a wedding. I did this wedding. The following month we got a different corpse-couple as Limb Leaders, and they wigged out that I had been performing weddings, and threw me out. I transfered to Washington.
I ran classes and then . . .
In 1997, in Washington state, I paid a beleiver to paint my house while I went on vacation, during which he searched my house and found books that had been written by Rev. Cummins. I was yelled at for having 'forbidden' writings, and told to burn our library. We refused to burn books, so we were thrown out.
I transfered to Italy and ran classes.
This past return stateside, we have not contacted any local TWI fellowships. So I guess that means that we are 'out'.
And we run classes. . .
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wyteduv58
It took me 5 years or so just praying and thinking about it, but I thought I would lose my hubby if I left.
Finally it came down to "I'm outta here" even if I do lose hubby. Come to find out that he was thinking the same thing. Boy talk about like-minded, we sure were in that case.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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JustThinking
Galen,
Wow! He searched your house? That's very
weird. And they wonder why people are suspicious of them.
What classes have you been running?
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JustThinking
wd58,
Dumb question: Do you think it was fear that kept you from talking to you hubby sooner? Fear of his reaction or just fear of making your feelings known at all?
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wyteduv58
Just.....I think a little of each, plus I was a bit headstrong, and questioned everything they said, which got hubby in trouble, cuz he's supposed to make me shut up (ya right).
They were trying to get him to leave me toward the last because I was getting bolder with leaders.
Example....When told to sell my house by R.S. our region coord. I said sure I will when twi sells headquarters. That went over like a led balloon. lol but hell I still have my home and my hubby.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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JustThinking
Dovey,
Good for you! And I'm VERY glad you still
have your hubby. :-)
I understand RR still owns her house. Wonder if it's paid for?
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wyteduv58
Well I hear she was already rich from her ex. so maybe it is payed for, if not than Rosey ya gotta sell it right now or God's gonna getcha for that.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Tom Strange
duvvie.... "a bit headstrong??????
:D-->
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Oakspear
Galen:
TWI maintained that all twigs were "self supporting, self governing, and self propogating". (I know it was a crock, but that's what they said.
When you make the statement that you were in a "self supporting" twig, are you making a distinction between them and other types of twigs?
Interesting about the marriage thing. I knew of several non-ordained or non-Way Corps who performed Way weddings. Our Limb Coordinator in Nebraska in the mid-nineties did one wedding that I know of; when in New York in the late 70's, a the twig leader of an Hispanic twig did a wedding as well. I had never heard of anyone refusing to marry non-Corps, except for your story. Jumpo through hoops and "counselling", yes, but outright refusal, no. Goes to show you how things often would vary depending on what area you were in and who your "leaders" were.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
I got "in" in 1978.
In early 1983 I got in several arguments with the Limb Coordinator and his wife and stopped going for about seven years.
Got back "in" in 1990.
Almost left again in the late 90's after the Branch Coordinator yelled at my wife and I yelled at him. My wife made it clear that she would not back me up and that she wanted to stay "in" no matter what.
Was put on probation for six months in 1999. Got back "in" in late 1999.
Started questioning practice and then doctrine after the lawsuit was announced in 2000. I started drifting away over the next year and a half. My wife would not listen to my concerns and stayed in when I was finally trhrown out in August 2001.
Even though I was thrown out, and did not leave under my own steam, it was not all that traumatic, since in my heart I had been out for a long time.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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outandabout
Misery started to set in circa 1980. Didn't fly the coop until 1988. Took a long time to get it that God wouldn't hate me if I left. As a matter of fact, He'd probably been telling me to get out since I first wanted to in 1980.
Wish I'd listened, but how would I know? I was convinced it was God's Ministry and God's Calling, so if He told me to get out, I didn't get it because it couldn't seep through my Way Brain.
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Rocky
Got involved in 1974. Went in the 9th corpse, stayed in it until the interim year. Left the field, didn't go to fellowships for about 9 months. Got back in, went wow 81-82. Went to college (a community college, then Arizona State). When PoP came out after Vic died in 85, it was all secretive in our area for a short while. I think that was spring 86. I graduated from ASU in May 86, had to move in August and never went to a twi fellowship after that.
Lots of folks in the Phoenix area left then. Tom Reahard lived in Scottsdale and was one of the leaders of the group the led the big exodus at that time (Ralph D, JAL, Robert Belt, etc.).
Went, for a while to makeshift fellowships but that eventually piddled out. A couple of times when JAL came to town, I went to see him, but mostly out of curiosity. Haven't been to any such fellowship in over a decade.
I figure I heard my heart telling me from the early 1980s that it wasn't what I had originally thought... but I was ready when the exodus came in 86.
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rascal
We left gradually....what is wierd though is that it took almost ten years AFTER leaving for it to occur to us to examine and recognise the destructive beliefs and mind sets that we still clung so tenatiously to....and false teachings that were still causing great damage.
So even though we were physically *out* .... it was many more years before we actually left twi.
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A la prochaine
JT,
Too f'en long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
'til the next time...
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Oakspear
Rascal:
Good point. I think your experience was more a function of the time that you got out. From what you and others who got out when you did have told me, the reasons were primarily practical error, rather than doctrinal. The meltdown following POP, Martindale's demand that everybody line up behind him, right or wrong, so many other things.
Those of us who stayed in (or first got involved) after the mass exodus in the late 80's either didn't know about the practical error and abuses, didn't care, or rationalized them away somehow. So, if we got out, it was more likely to involve doctrinal questioning as well as questioning Martindale's behavior that led to the lawsuit. (This is all from my perspective and personal observation only!)
The M&A class of 2001 had access to the internet and read about abuses going back years, and werea ble to view or participate in threads questioning the doctrinal basis of many of the Way's beliefs
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Abigail
It took me about five years to leave, after I first started thinking I wanted to.
It took another year or two for most of TWI to leave me.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Hope R.
I'm the opposite of Rascal and similar to Wyteduv. I wanted to leave for many years but my husband didn't. I figured it was best to sit tight and wait rather than force him out when he didn't want to go. That way there'd be no regrets on his part and I couldn't be accused by him or TWI for "making" him leave. In other words, I wanted him to get out on his own terms not mine.
I guess around 1990/1991 I finally saw the proverbial handwriting on the BRC wall. All our really good friends had left already. LCM was out of his "fog" and starting to scream again. Other ex-way leaders were sending us their tapes and newsletters. But, we had good people in our twig who I really loved, so I decided to try it a while longer. I thought maybe things could change. It was okay for a while. We were left alone to teach and run our twig the way we saw fit.
In 1994 or 1995 - LCM started the homo rantings, the no-debt policy, dismissed all the corps who were married to non-corps, canned the Rock and the WOW program, demanded 3x weekly attendance to fellowships (not twigs anymore) and declared everything VP ever taught an "old wineskin". I had to go to his advanced class or I wouldn't be considered an advanced class grad anymore (huh?).
Long story I've told before, but it was horrible. I came home and told hubby that when he was ready to leave, I'd be right behind him.
I stopped listening to tapes. I stopped going to leaders meetings (until we were told we weren't good enough to be coordinating a fellowship anymore after 16 years of doing so). I pretty much stopped every TWI activity except going to fellowship 2x's a week and branch meetings once a month.
I made other friends, became involved in other organizations like PTA. I was primed to leave, I'd cut my ties as much as possible.
Then I discovered Trancechat through an ex-Way friend which was a great source of relief and release for me. Then Waydale appeared and it was only a matter of time. I thought hubby would want out right after the owner of Waydale filed the first lawsuit. But no, he wanted to help. He wrote Rosalie his infamous letter. Instead of being thanked for his concern and desire to help, we were kicked out. The scales fell from hubby's eyes. I couldn't have been happier.
It took from 1995 to 2000 to get from the point when I desperately wanted to leave to the point when we actually got the boot. Those were a very tense 5 years, but I'm glad I waited and waded through them.
Hope R. color>size>face>
What a long, strange trip it's been!size>face>color>
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JustThinking
Hope,
I admire your ability to take a long-term view about your own life and marriage. It is wonderful to see any man or woman put so much thought into their actions.
I had a couple in my fellowship who had a VERY similar experience but it was the wife who wasn't ready to leave. It's saddens me to this day how things turned out. They were wonderful people but up with so much grief. They did have some problem areas in their life but no more so than many of us. The local leaders rode them so hard about it that they finally left. No help, just berating. My impression was the local twit who was the BC was scared to death of them because he couldn't hold a candle to their ability. He would make the most ridiculous statements while trying to sound "deep" or "spiritual." They were just vague statements though that didn't mean much. I think in some ways he got tired of getting called on it and decided to get rid of them.
I started a thread about old TWI relationships on this site because of them. It would be nice to find them again and apologize for not fighting harder to get them help.
If you have any advice about approaching them, I would be very grateful. The berating didn't come from me but I didn't do a whole lot as their FC to stop it either. It's something I regret to this day.
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ex10
To address what Oakspear said about many people leaving in the late 80's more because of practical error than doctrinal, I've got maybe a little different perspective. While what Oak said is I'm sure probably true for alot of people, there also were doctrinal considerations as well.
There were many people, most of whom that I know about were corps grads, who knew there were "doctrinal problems." Some of the biggies were: the "law of believing," "athletes of the spirit," TWI's take on abortion, tithing, the "operation of the 'manifestations,'" the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and of course the biggie, "adultery."
When John S. got fired because of his paper saying adultery is wrong, it opened up a huge "doctrinal" can of worms. After that, many of the fired and demoted started talking and comparing notes, and I think it was John L. who started right away with exposing the "doctrinal" error to anybody who would listen. And yeah, the practical error came to light as well, simultaneously.
And it took a couple of years to finally "leave." I had dozens of family members involved in TWI, so it wasn't a matter of just me and hubby making our escape. But it turned out ok, with everybody leaving at the same time, (mid to late 80's) more or less.
And alot of that was due to John L and Sue P travelling around doing their meetings and exposing the sordid underbelly of the organization as well as the "personal life" of VPW and his "leadership."
And rascal, I probably would've been in the same boat as you, if I hadn't known about the "doctrinal problems." It just so happened that I was pregnant for most of 1987. Due to complications, I didn't work and was on bed rest for much of that time. John Lynn sent me a ton of material to read, as well as his book list, and I read it all. Most of it was exposing the doctrinal holes in VP's theology.
Talk about "deprograming," sheesh, my brain was thoroughly "reprogramed" after that. Hubby and I tried to alert any and all "believers" we knew about the problems, but unfortunately many called us liars and "pozest."
In fact, I still get that same accusation from some to this day. Go figure. 
-->
Sorry for the sidetrack, just another perspective to add to the mix.
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JustThinking
Ex,
This isn't a side track for me. It shows the progression you went through which is just as valuable. (At least for me) Thanks for sharing some personal insight.
I'm just now becoming aware of some of these issues. Or more accurately, the scale of the problem. I tended to be a typicaly wayfer and either ignore it or rationalize things.
It is probably a good news/bad news thing that I have usually lived some distance from a LC or BC. It kept me away from having to string my chairs for dinner (kidding). However, I also didn't see many people like yourself who were trying to warn others. My old friends had moved away and just seemed to disappear.
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ex10
Well, thanks, you thinking person you.
;)-->
I guess some of us have always had bigger mouths than others.
I remember in the mid 90's or so, I think it was after the "sell your house or else" mandate, many more people in our state left TWI. Those of us who had been "out" for awhile, were shocked that anybody was left to leave. Since just about everybody we knew and were close to left in the 80's, I guess we sort of assumed that there wasn't much left of TWI. We went years without really hearing much about TWI and what was happening. It seemed pretty irrelevant to our lives I guess.
And then stuff started appearing on the Internet. I remember Trancechat as well, even though I never posted or anything, I would occasionally read.
And the rest is history....
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Outin88!
Oh, good topic!
As my sudo name says I left in 1988. But my wife and I started leaving about a year before we made the decision to leave.
Maybe it's because I was a twig coordinator in Massachusetts during the Ralph D years that I got to hear about many probplems and erroneous doctrines of TWI from Ralph, Sue Pierce & JAL in 87-88 timeframe.
It surprises me to hear of folks who were in TWI in the late 80's not knowing about the corruption and false doctrines since letters and tapes were being sent all over.
I know we sent letters explaining all the erroneous doctrines to folks we knew!
But then again, as ex10 pointed out many ignored these letters because those who sent such letters were accused of being "pozest"!!!!
My wife and I actually stayed a year after hearing of the adultry and other stuff, hoping to help change TWI. So as Hope said some wanted to stay for that reason too.
A group of us, mostly corps would get together and discuss what was happening and what we considered biblical questions regarding some of TWI's erroneous doctrines and practices.
We reviewed the Schoenheit Adultry paper, we read various letters from several believers who left and listened to tapes by JAL et al.
We would go and hear Ralph speak and Sue Pierce would come to town and teach.
After about a year of these meetings we all felt TWI was not getting better, but worse. We felt this organization was not where God wanted us.
The decision to leave was not easy and there was a definate transition after leaving, as we were still some what "Way Brained" in our thinking. But after few years, we were seeing the truth more clearly and felt God was blessing us with our decision to leave.
In 1999 a friend told me about Waydale and interestingly, after reading Waydale I found more "Way Brain" in my thinking. I've changed my opinion on some things since then.
By the way, Just thinking, welcome to GREASESPOTCAFE, a belated welcome anyway!
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Al Poole
Dittos Ex
Hiya! I was friends with many of ex's family in that last year before pop. And I owe a tremendous debt to her brother an x14th corpse. He visited me in Tulsa in late '86 and "shared" things he knew from his interium year on staff. Things I couldn't, wouldn't believe. Until he revealed the name of one of the people involved. This person was an "up and comer" a "great believer" and pretty dynamic leader, (yet all the while involved in the "sordid underbelly" of twi.)
This person suddenly just "disappered". No one seemed to know where they were or what happened to them. What happened was they had gotten pregnat by lcm and would not abort the child. So they were caused to "disapper". When ex's brother revealed their name to me all the pieces of the puzzle fell into place and I believed.
I too had had walls and filters up during my entire way involvement. I didn't "buy" every word that came from some leaders mouth as if it "came from God." I too got hold of some of jal's material which solidified my decision to leave. When JS's paper was attacked and he was fired I was already "out" but that proved to me the rightness of my decision.
My thinking was simple...
"If the bot would not publicly admit their sin and repent... then the behavior would continue, the events would be covered up, swept under rthe rug, and life, for them, would go on."
And it did and they're still there. Back then no one bothered you about it... you just didn't come to "twig" anymore. Even the limb and region coordinators left you alone. It was much simpler then it seems. I was in school and moving on with my life. Never gave it any second thoughts AT ALL. Then back in 2000 I got curious about "them". I had heard some things from time to time from jal and a few others. Then I was sitting in front of a computer and just for kicks typed twi into "yahoo". WOW!!! It blew my mind how RIGHT I had been about my reasoning!!
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