Dr's Last Teaching - LOST for 17 Years!

[Mike]

On 12/27/2022 at 4:32 PM, chockfull said:

How delusional do you have to be to put written class materials as “God breathed” the exact same category as scripture is taught to be?

So does the written word of VPW also take the place of the absent Christ?

Deeply ponder that why don’t you?

I’m not sure what exactly you mean by “written word of VPW” and I suspect it is different than what I mean by the collaterals.  

LoL   I myself have some fuzzy edges on what I mean by the collaterals.

I have always thought that the written word of Paul to us in the Church Epistles takes the place of Christ, and Christ personally saw to it that Paul knew exactly what to write.

In contrast, the special* PFAL writings are only a window, through which the absent Christ can be physically seen in print, right there after the Gospels in the KJV.

Then, after working this PFAL window into KJV teaching a little, we can learn to see the Christ with-in each other and in ourselves, the very present, spiritual Christ within.

Then, ALSO after working this PFAL window into KJV teaching a little, we can learn to see it beyond the window.

We can learn to work all the scriptures and life ourselves. I demonstrated that in the “NT Canon” thread and in the “Determinism vs. free will” I was willing and able to use the tiny little diving board of PFAL, to do deep dives into uncharted territory in both the Bible and science.  I wasn’t confined by the collaterals.  I was launched by them. 

I felt emboldened to go there, and other places, because I see that the physically absent Christ is of God’s doing.  He did it on the day of the Ascension, and He will undo that physical absence someday.

God took the Bright Light, the Christ away, out of sight, so we can learn to see the still small light of Christ within.

Someday our “Christ’s eyes behind our eyes” will see the physically absent Christ Return to the physical realm. 

*/*/*/*

*special PFAL writings is a new way I want to start referring to the collaterals. This can help avoid needless nit-picking over terms like “God-breathed” or given by “divine dictation” and a few others.  I use the collaterals as my “Only Rule for Faith and Practice” and the first rule in the collaterals is “Open your Bibles to…” and they serve us with thousands of pointers to verses in versions of the Bible.

 

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*

chockfull wrote,
Yeah I see that.  So nice to reminisce over how far people have come in the last 5 years.  …  To sum up, Mikey still censors everything potentially negative about VPW and the class and the collaterals.

-Censor is a strong word. I censor SOME THINGS for myself, but not afraid to confront the details of it.  But you don’t seem to want to include the several things I have criticized VPW over, and I know the class is not perfect. The film class alone would never have settled things for me like the collaterals did.  I was an AV man and very biased to the film class at the time, but as I look back with 5 decades of detail in sight, I can plainly see that the collaterals did it for me.

I think part of VPW’s message to top leadership in his last teaching is VPW telling them that their audio memory of the film class is NOT SUFFICIENT for them to do the best job, and that the written materials were far too neglected by upper leadership. We can learn by their mistakes and take “The Joy of Serving” much seriously than TWI-2 and TWI-3 did.

*/*/*/*/*

In another post I had written:
Years ago I had a conversation by e-mail with Karen Martin, one of the PFAL book’s editors about this. She suggested a term that I had never heard before: Inspiration of Explication.  Our conversation was interrupted, possibly by her brother Donnie’s passing. I have yet to get back to her.

In a huffy, demanding voice, chockful barked:
So this is ridiculous.  You have yet to get back to her.  Please do and let us know.  She has moved on from TWI so long before your 24 year brain washing it’s not funny.  I would LOVE to hear her current opinion on the collaterals.

LoL  Well I would I love to hear her current view. I felt lucky to discuss this with her as much as I did. Maybe she is in the ROA now, and this is my best crack at getting back to her.

 

While you are at it, interview the rest of VPs kids and grandkids who are still alive.  Some of VPs last teachings included how the Wierwille family was the legacy of the ministry.   But all of them left.
They know how to find me if they want to get interviewed. What I really want is a tape of VPW saying “how the Wierwille family was the legacy of the ministry”  

I have been hearing 3^rd hand accounts of that family remark for years, but never saw a good first-hand account. I would REALLY like to hear the tape. 

For all I know it could have been something he said while recovering from a stroke or two he had. 

The (1) dates of those strokes and (2) a date plus (3) a more exact account are data I lack regarding this mysterious Wierwille family remark.  This has eluded me for 3 decades now.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*

I had written in a gentlemanly fashion:

The collaterals are not the solo work of VPW. 

He had lots of help from people who had some experience in operating the manifestation, like editors and secretaries and researchers, and in his past VPW had many teachers that had been taught many thing by God.

I see the collaterals as a product from God, who working in many people over hundreds of years, and producing a very good product, in spite of the flesh flaws of all the participants. How God has Jesus hand out fair & just rewards for all these participants, is something we will all celebrate someday.

VPW’s main job was to find and collect that information as God directed, then integrate it all into a teaching that was understandable by smart 12 year-olds, and able to minister to the broken people, and to the university professors.

chockful retorted, nostrils venting hot steam:
How do you know what VPs main job was?  Are you God?  Did you read his mind?  Or are you projecting “your” idea onto him?
No, I read it in “The Way - Living In Love.”

Have you got to the part in penworks book yet about “all the people” who worked on VPs books, did the most work, then were fired without attribution in the work or any royalty like a normal author has for original work?
No, not that far yet. I did peek ahead and…  WOW!   There is a lot of history in that book!  At first it was nostalgic for me, but now it is a detailed, first-hand account of the ministry’s rise and fall.  I value that immensely.  Duke Clark did a recounting of his early and later years with the ministry on Facebook lately.  I hope more people who were first  hand witnesses to lots of the elements in ministry history start writing their stories.  Wasn’t there a forum here for something like that?  I looked but could not find.

The firing of workers on the committee written books you I have never heard one word on, ever. HOWEVER, what you just described, an to which I have always subscribed, is that VPW used the University professor template for “writing” those books.  I think we are talking about JCNG, JCOP, and JCPS. 

It is standard for University professors to “write” a book through the efforts of their grad students.  Proper crediting is often in dispute. What you described, and what I’ll get a bigger picture soon from Charlene, sounds kinda normal to me. I am not saying VPW handled it fair; I have zero detail, so I wont pre-judge.

And the whole idea of originality is just not that big a deal to me. I believe God originated a lot of revelations to a lot of people, and here VPW’s only job was coordinating everyone’s final efforts, after having wound them up with all his PFAL teachings and other teachings. He gave them the main ideas, and they put into written form, and then he had the last say.  That is how the other books and magazine articles were written.

I got the above info from dozens of hours of discussions with several of VPW’s editors, besides Karen.

 

I really don’t want to lump all the collaterals together even the studies in abundant living were written in different decades.  
The main key I go by are what collaterals were given to us in the class. That is the set he pointed to in his last teaching.

 

Then how about Adv Class materials?  Are they also collaterals?  Like “The Myth of the 6 Million”? CSBP?  ADAN?  JCNG? How about Craig’s Acts book?  Is that a collateral?  It built from the accounts in Acts in PFAL, and a VP teaching on “Great Statements” in Acts.
A copy of ADAN is held up in the film class. Bingo!

All the rest I would not count as collaterals. 
Maybe as co-collaterals?  Or collateral-laterals? 
They could have lots of good, but some error too.

We’ve already started to get into “Why Division?” In TNDC.  But you didn’t want to talk about it.  You just want to focus on the blurry general model because it makes an easier idol than working scriptures and thinking.
The whole purpose of the collaterals is to help up us work the scriptures and to incorporate it all into thinking and acting in believing and love.

*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*/*//*//*/*/*

Chockful wrote:
Let’s review your post.  14 year old hitchhikers.  “Overflowing” with the Word.  A Beatles song with the word “love”.  Giggling.

This is 100 percent cringe.  There is no thinking evil involved, just responding to your provocative description of 14 year olds.  I mean who lets 14 year old girls hitchhike anyway?  I certainly wouldn’t let my daughter do anything like that at that age.  … I am really starting to doubt any story you tell as being real.  There are just way too many flags.  I’m just starting to get a real Vic vibe off of you.

I can understand you being a recent enthusiastic graduate of Ad Hominem School, but if you are going to slam me like that, having the wrong historical era in your hitchhiking perspective pretty much deflates your effort.   Also you could try boosting up to credible, your “provocative description” complaint.

 

[Mike]

21 hours ago, Rocky said:

At some point Mike, whether you ever come to realize that your hero was charlatan or not, you still could benefit from thinking through what the social climate was like when this happened.   …  

The cult earned notoriety for its sexual practices, which included what Berg dubbed “flirty fishing,” and which found him ordering female followers to have sex with men in order to bring them into the cult.

I'm NOT suggesting you did anything inappropriate with those hitchhikers. I AM suggesting it was odd (but I know from being a kid at that time it was certainly in the realm of possibility) that 14 year old girls would hitchhike. There are obvious parallels between twi and Berg's cult. The difference is perhaps in degrees.
First of all, in 1971 hitchhiking was the baby boom norm, glamorized by the Hippie Bible “On the Road.”  Everyone my age hitchhiked, even years before my HS Graduation in 1967. Girls often hitchhiked. The Charles Manson imitators damped it way down in the mid 1970s.

 

These girls were FORMER hippie chicks at 14… maybe they were 15, that’s blurry. They witnessed to me and soon I was in a twig, before they called them twigs. It was a phenomenal fellowship that extended out from Ralph D’s branch closer to NYC.  He was a first-hand witness and had great praise for the believers of those 2 branches in posts here.

 

These girls were far from flirty with me; they were like TEACHERS!  Or, at least one was. The others chimed in well. They witnessed Jesus Christ to me, and not the class, J Juedes!    They hadn’t even had the class yet. They were hitching back from a Women’s Advance.

A detail I left out of my account the other day was that I had been pondering deeply a verse I got from Alan Watts earlier that puzzled me to no end. “I am the way and the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father but by me.”

As an official Cosmic Crusader Space Cadet, I had been juggling God, Allah, and Ram all together in one mantra for some time, and was willing to let Jesus in, but not if he was going to talk like that!  Alan Watt attributed Jesus little ego fit there as just another example of how enlightenment and insanity were so close the often merged.  That gave me a great buzz, but it generated all kinds of Jesus questions.

Somewhere at some very strategic spot in my conversation with the girls, the ringleader named Lynn shot out her rememorized KJV version of my meditation stumbling verse. Here I am studying the secrets of the universe in obscure NYC bookstores, and a teeny bopper is laying it out for me from her memory. I was so impressed, all I could say is “Take me to your leader.”  The story continued… 

I was only able to keep in touch with one of them over the years, Lynn the ringleader. Jeannie, and the third I lost track of even her name.  Lynn is friends with me on Facebook, and also with certain Debbie, another teenager (slightly older) from that same Suffolk County Long Island branch.  Debbie is a mutual friend on Facebook with Rocky and me. 

These are not anonymous teenagers in an old story!

They were pillars of the church to me for a couple of years, and great examples of how far young people can go with the Word and simple believing.  This was well before the Corps started growing some culty strains within.

 

The cult leader sets himself up to be beyond challenge internal in the group. He then gets to establish the group mores and rationalize it however he can. The practices look less like a Biblical construct than a manifestation of the desires of the cult leader.

Yeah, that sounds like the TVTs to me.  I saw some leaders try to do things like that. They were pretty stupid about it, and mostly just talk.

 

My point is: all of your efforts to frame what Wierwille taught and what he did are stories that YOU give your preferred meaning/interpretation to. I believe everything about TWI was horse pucky.
I hear you. We all had different exposures to TWI.  I was lucky to have largely avoided the Corps, even at HQ,  and was alerted early to be a little stand-offish with them.

All the stories of VPW and TWI I place way down on the priority list of what I have the greatest respect for.

For my first several years in the Word, I commuted to my NYC job in Manhattan with Western Union as a traveling repair man. I had a 90 minute train ride twice a day to read the collaterals, transfer useful notes from them to my Cambridge Wide Magin, and witness to anyone nearby if possible. 

Then my job was a trip!  The union I was in had a strangle hold on the company, and the Union Rep told us new guys to be sure and not do more work than the old established traveling repair men. He used that persuasive NYC thug talk to then suggest we take 10 coffee breaks per day, or take in a movie or museum if coffee gets boring. That meant more witnessing and more notes to my Cambridge during work hours. They were productive years for me, totally unsupervised by Corps.  I witnessed to Ken Barden, a later favorite of the 7^th Corps.  All this is posted here, scattered about.

It was on that train that I got to know the Bible, and then it was reinforced at fellowship, and a little later by the film class. The collaterals were my window to see the Word in my KJV.

Then, as the years progressed, I saw the flaws and the problems in the ministry. But there always has remained a great respect for the special* PFAL writings, the collaterals.   For many here it would be an enormous effort to see this, but it could be done if you recognized that SOMETHING had to be right in the whole TWI experience.  Take my tip: it was the collaterals.

I do not expect you to believe it because I say it. If I did so expect, it would be unrealistic. I believe it would take something as dramatic for you as what was read in the Book of Acts about how Paul changed his entire belief system in the wink of an eye.
I hear you, and also think the same can apply to you. If you ever get to have a vision of Jesus, check and see if he is holding an orange colored book. 

[Mike]

9 hours ago, Twinky said:

FWIW, I don't think I Mike got "involved" with the girls or molested any of them. He was, like many of us, attracted by their enthusiasm and vibrancy,their passion. 

Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that. 

Thanks Twinky !!!

Yup, you nailed it. 

"Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that. "

I have seen with some guys that they just have no operational experience with the beauty and the benefits of a brother sister relationship. All the see is a woman’s flesh, that is all they think anyone else can see. I have seen even more shocking examples of the strong associations some men lock onto for life, than the recent one that was posted.

Thank you again, for standing up for 1 Cor 13 and thinking no evil.

[Mike]

On 12/27/2022 at 8:59 AM, So_crates said:

And who did Saint Vic serve besides little Saint Vic?

Me! 

He served me, mostly in the collaterals.

He served thousands of others also.

I know how much work it is to teach, and to prepare for it. It is hard work.

Even appropriately appropriating boilerplate from another man of God is hard work. There isolating the useful text, and smoothing it out for error, and smoothing it in with all the other items in my DESPERATELY  NEEDED  CURRICULUM !!! 

All that takes work, and he hammered it out better and better every year, from 1953 to 1968 he had to learn the skills.  Just that learning is hard work.  I did it for live Open Mics for 5 years, so I know the work involved, and most of those were limited to about 10 minutes per gig, with occasional flexibility, to 15 minutes. I’ve done some AM radio work as well.

If anyone has ever seen the 1963 black and white PFAL video, what is obvious is he had not yet gotten over being camera shy.  That is much harder than overcoming radio mic shyness in a studio. Being in front of a camera is very much more intimidating, and takes more work to overcome it the way he did.

I know at least once or twice in his life he helped a lot of people. I was one.

*/*/*/*

You wrote a while ago:
None of this proves what you call my hunch is off the mark. All your stating is a bunch of references you want to interpret as clues.

Your hunch was that I got by revelation that “God-breathed” applies to the collaterals.

My response was that I got it by reading page 83, and not by revelation.

Your hunch was off the mark on the source of where I got the idea of “God-breathed” collateral.

*/*/*

God being perfect would give perfect detailed revelation, as Saint Vic states in the class. Among those details would be which is God breathed and which isn't.
There you go telling God how to do His job.  Isn’t that what someone accused me of not long ago?

Sometimes God hides things, sometimes he hints at things and then helps up understand it.

[So_crates]

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

Me! 

Did he also serve the women he assulted?

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

He served me, mostly in the collaterals.

He served thousands of others also.

Again, did he also serve the women he drugged and took advantage of?

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

I know how much work it is to teach, and to prepare for it. It is hard work

Even appropriately appropriating boilerplate from another man of God is hard work. There isolating the useful text, and smoothing it out for error, and smoothing it in with all the other items in my DESPERATELY  NEEDED  CURRICULUM !!! 

Yah, rearranging sentences. My God don't we know he's only a human being?

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

All that takes work, and he hammered it out better and better every year, from 1953 to 1968 he had to learn the skills.  Just that learning is hard work.  I did it for live Open Mics for 5 years, so I know the work involved, and most of those were limited to about 10 minutes per gig, with occasional flexibility, to 15 minutes. I’ve done some AM radio work as well.

What "skills"? The skill to steal someone else's work and claim it as his own?

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

If anyone has ever seen the 1963 black and white PFAL video, what is obvious is he had not yet gotten over being camera shy.  That is much harder than overcoming radio mic shyness in a studio. Being in front of a camera is very much more intimidating, and takes more work to overcome it the way he did.

Getting in front of a camera wasn't a problem for me. I just blocked the camera out and did what I needed to do. There was no camera shyness.

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

I know at least once or twice in his life he helped a lot of people. I was one.

So you keep claiming, but you never go into specifics. Read the account of damage Saint Vic has done on this forum, they go into specifics. So excuse me if I don't believe you.

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

*/*/*/*

You wrote a while ago:
None of this proves what you call my hunch is off the mark. All your stating is a bunch of references you want to interpret as clues.

Your hunch was that I got by revelation that “God-breathed” applies to the collaterals.

My response was that I got it by reading page 83, and not by revelation.

Your hunch was off the mark on the source of where I got the idea of “God-breathed” collateral.

That's not what you said earlier. You said God revealed it to you.

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

*/*/

God being perfect would give perfect detailed revelation, as Saint Vic states in the class. Among those details would be which is God breathed and which isn't.
There you go telling God how to do His job.  Isn’t that what someone accused me of not long ago?

No,there Saint Vic goes telling God how to do his job. That's what Saint Vic stated in the class. I thought you studied the class for 20 years. And you don't remember that passage?

7 minutes ago, Mike said:

 

Sometimes God hides things, sometimes he hints at things and then helps up understand it

And sometime people try to bull their way out of their mouth being engaged before their brain's in gear.

[So_crates]

9 minutes ago, So_crates said:

 

Mea culpa, double post

Edited December 29, 2022 by So_crates

[Rocky]

There are humongous parallels between TWI and the COG, David Berg's Children of God cult. The differences are ONLY a matter of degrees. Literally and figuratively. Berg has substantially less education than Wierwille. Berg has a LOT more audaciousness regarding sex and sexual interaction. 

We KNOW women and girls in TWI used flirtatiousness to sell the class. We KNOW Vic had unabashed appetites, regarding sex and alcohol.

Berg very likely wouldn't have gotten away with preaching sexuality the way he did if he had stayed in the US.
 

It's astounding we still have people like Mike who push Vic's classes, "writings" (which were largely written by others), and doctrine.

Wierwille's motivations for establishing he subculture can only be inferred, but the practices were and still are FAR from biblical or godly.

[OldSkool]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

VPW said that it was buried then.

He lied. End of story.

[Nathan_Jr]

Mmmmph

[waysider]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

lots of people are already passing the material on to their progeny in verbal teaching and teaching by example. 

Sooooo? ...............TVTs?

[OldSkool]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

Even appropriately appropriating boilerplate from another man of God is hard work. There isolating the useful text, and smoothing it out for error, and smoothing it in with all the other items in my DESPERATELY  NEEDED  CURRICULUM !!! 

Mike, thats called plagairaisim and lying. Wierwille basically stated that Receiving the holy spirit today was received by revelation after he tossed his imaginary 3000 book library to the city dump and checked himself into a hotel for a week eating a diet of grapes. Wake up. I hate seeing anyone so blinded to the obvious truth that wierwille was a charlatan.

[OldSkool]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

The difference here is that God’s Word was available in Jesus’ time.

 

 

In 1942 it wasn’t available.  VPW said that it was buried then.  I say it was buried under the Temple debris in 1942, just like it was in Jeremiah’s time. It was hidden in plain sight by religion and tradition and error.

 

 

I know for sure I did not have the Word in 1971, and I know for sure it was a miracle that I got to hear it the way I did.

Mike - this is simpy not true. Its a romantiscised fantasy based on the lies of a plagaristic narcissicist. 

[chockfull]

11 hours ago, Mike said:

Thanks Twinky !!!

 

 

Yup, you nailed it. 

 

 

"Don't think it was sexual attraction, but could be confused with that. "

 

 

I have seen with some guys that they just have no operational experience with the beauty and the benefits of a brother sister relationship. All the see is a woman’s flesh, that is all they think anyone else can see. I have seen even more shocking examples of the strong associations some men lock onto for life, than the recent one that was posted.

 

 

Thank you again, for standing up for 1 Cor 13 and thinking no evil.

 

 

It is not thinking evil to point out the words someone says.  Those words did not come out of my mouth they came from your fingers to your phone.  One of your plots is to never own up to anything and then play the victim.

I never said you did anything physically with those girls.  I said the way you are talking about them has inappropriate language for describing 14 year olds.  That is my opinion and I would call out a random person in a grocery store for the same thing.

So own your cringe talk or move along and don’t.  I have seen you own exactly one thing in all the time posting here.  That is using a psychotic break term in one of your long mental model discussions.

Also along with your ohhhhhh I’m a victim talk you always strike back with BS.

Yes I have female friends.  I’m married with a daughter I raised.  What I “locked onto” is cringe language from YOU.

If you don’t know what “cringe “ means ask a 14 year old girl.  That language is jargon coming from Gen Z.

Edited December 29, 2022 by chockfull

[chockfull]

12 hours ago, Mike said:

I'm NOT suggesting you did anything inappropriate with those hitchhikers. I AM suggesting it was odd (but I know from being a kid at that time it was certainly in the realm of possibility) that 14 year old girls would hitchhike. There are obvious parallels between twi and Berg's cult. The difference is perhaps in degrees.
First of all, in 1971 hitchhiking was the baby boom norm, glamorized by the Hippie Bible “On the Road.”  Everyone my age hitchhiked, even years before my HS Graduation in 1967. Girls often hitchhiked. The Charles Manson imitators damped it way down in the mid 1970s.

 

 

 

 

These girls were FORMER hippie chicks at 14… maybe they were 15, that’s blurry. They witnessed to me and soon I was in a twig, before they called them twigs. It was a phenomenal fellowship that extended out from Ralph D’s branch closer to NYC.  He was a first-hand witness and had great praise for the believers of those 2 branches in posts here.

 

 

 

These girls were far from flirty with me; they were like TEACHERS!  Or, at least one was. The others chimed in well. They witnessed Jesus Christ to me, and not the class, J Juedes!    They hadn’t even had the class yet. They were hitching back from a Women’s Advance.

 

 

A detail I left out of my account the other day was that I had been pondering deeply a verse I got from Alan Watts earlier that puzzled me to no end. “I am the way and the truth and the light. No man comes to the Father but by me.”

 

 

As an official Cosmic Crusader Space Cadet, I had been juggling God, Allah, and Ram all together in one mantra for some time, and was willing to let Jesus in, but not if he was going to talk like that!  Alan Watt attributed Jesus little ego fit there as just another example of how enlightenment and insanity were so close the often merged.  That gave me a great buzz, but it generated all kinds of Jesus questions.

 

 

Somewhere at some very strategic spot in my conversation with the girls, the ringleader named Lynn shot out her rememorized KJV version of my meditation stumbling verse. Here I am studying the secrets of the universe in obscure NYC bookstores, and a teeny bopper is laying it out for me from her memory. I was so impressed, all I could say is “Take me to your leader.”  The story continued… 

 

 

I was only able to keep in touch with one of them over the years, Lynn the ringleader. Jeannie, and the third I lost track of even her name.  Lynn is friends with me on Facebook, and also with certain Debbie, another teenager (slightly older) from that same Suffolk County Long Island branch.  Debbie is a mutual friend on Facebook with Rocky and me. 

 

 

These are not anonymous teenagers in an old story!

 

 

They were pillars of the church to me for a couple of years, and great examples of how far young people can go with the Word and simple believing.  This was well before the Corps started growing some culty strains within.

 

 

 

 

 

The cult leader sets himself up to be beyond challenge internal in the group. He then gets to establish the group mores and rationalize it however he can. The practices look less like a Biblical construct than a manifestation of the desires of the cult leader.

 

 

Yeah, that sounds like the TVTs to me.  I saw some leaders try to do things like that. They were pretty stupid about it, and mostly just talk.

 

 

 

 

 

My point is: all of your efforts to frame what Wierwille taught and what he did are stories that YOU give your preferred meaning/interpretation to. I believe everything about TWI was horse pucky.
I hear you. We all had different exposures to TWI.  I was lucky to have largely avoided the Corps, even at HQ,  and was alerted early to be a little stand-offish with them.

 

 

All the stories of VPW and TWI I place way down on the priority list of what I have the greatest respect for.

 

 

For my first several years in the Word, I commuted to my NYC job in Manhattan with Western Union as a traveling repair man. I had a 90 minute train ride twice a day to read the collaterals, transfer useful notes from them to my Cambridge Wide Magin, and witness to anyone nearby if possible. 

 

 

Then my job was a trip!  The union I was in had a strangle hold on the company, and the Union Rep told us new guys to be sure and not do more work than the old established traveling repair men. He used that persuasive NYC thug talk to then suggest we take 10 coffee breaks per day, or take in a movie or museum if coffee gets boring. That meant more witnessing and more notes to my Cambridge during work hours. They were productive years for me, totally unsupervised by Corps.  I witnessed to Ken Barden, a later favorite of the 7^th Corps.  All this is posted here, scattered about.

 

 

It was on that train that I got to know the Bible, and then it was reinforced at fellowship, and a little later by the film class. The collaterals were my window to see the Word in my KJV.

 

 

Then, as the years progressed, I saw the flaws and the problems in the ministry. But there always has remained a great respect for the special* PFAL writings, the collaterals.   For many here it would be an enormous effort to see this, but it could be done if you recognized that SOMETHING had to be right in the whole TWI experience.  Take my tip: it was the collaterals.

I do not expect you to believe it because I say it. If I did so expect, it would be unrealistic. I believe it would take something as dramatic for you as what was read in the Book of Acts about how Paul changed his entire belief system in the wink of an eye.
I hear you, and also think the same can apply to you. If you ever get to have a vision of Jesus, check and see if he is holding an orange colored book. 

 

 

A lot of detail about the young hitchhikers.  I actually think you are more naive than the serial adulterers in leadership in TWI.

The biggest serial adulterer was VPW by far.  And he groomed the 2nd Prez to be the exact same way.  It is written in a book called “VP and Me”.  That was Craig’s book of arse kissing which showed how he got to be Prez. It was never published even by the fake American Christian Press which printed the orange books.

I really don’t even need to point much out to an audience that reads a guy thinks our Lord Jesus Christ is going to be holding an orange book at the return.

You for example never witness Christ and always witness PFAL.

Bow down before your golden calf statue of “the teacher”.   Maybe it will come to life and meet all your needs.

Edited December 29, 2022 by chockfull

[chockfull]

11 hours ago, Mike said:

Me! 

He served me, mostly in the collaterals.

 

 

He served thousands of others also.

 

 

I know how much work it is to teach, and to prepare for it. It is hard work.

 

 

Even appropriately appropriating boilerplate from another man of God is hard work. There isolating the useful text, and smoothing it out for error, and smoothing it in with all the other items in my DESPERATELY  NEEDED  CURRICULUM !!! 

 

 

All that takes work, and he hammered it out better and better every year, from 1953 to 1968 he had to learn the skills.  Just that learning is hard work.  I did it for live Open Mics for 5 years, so I know the work involved, and most of those were limited to about 10 minutes per gig, with occasional flexibility, to 15 minutes. I’ve done some AM radio work as well.

 

 

If anyone has ever seen the 1963 black and white PFAL video, what is obvious is he had not yet gotten over being camera shy.  That is much harder than overcoming radio mic shyness in a studio. Being in front of a camera is very much more intimidating, and takes more work to overcome it the way he did.

 

 

I know at least once or twice in his life he helped a lot of people. I was one.

 

 

*/*/*/*

 

 

You wrote a while ago:
None of this proves what you call my hunch is off the mark. All your stating is a bunch of references you want to interpret as clues.

 

 

Your hunch was that I got by revelation that “God-breathed” applies to the collaterals.

 

 

My response was that I got it by reading page 83, and not by revelation.

 

 

Your hunch was off the mark on the source of where I got the idea of “God-breathed” collateral.

So in logic you can’t use the source to prove itself.  Verification comes from an outside source.  So p. 83 as a source for “God breathed” indicates very clearly that Mike places the collaterals above the scriptures in his hierarchy of worship.

I am not buying the camera shy bit.  Not from a man with a correspondence school doctorate in homiletics.  That’s what he studied.  He was anything but camera shy.  
 

In the real Christian world published works go through outside verification and editing.  This is why VPW was so adamant on getting his own printing press.  So he could print up hundreds of thousands of orange books without them being fact checked by anyone.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Mike, thats called plagairaisim and lying. Wierwille basically stated that Receiving the holy spirit today was received by revelation after he tossed his imaginary 3000 book library to the city dump and checked himself into a hotel for a week eating a diet of grapes. Wake up. I hate seeing anyone so blinded to the obvious truth that wierwille was a charlatan.

That is called plagiarism where? 
It is in the godless book market, and in godless academia. 

Those two kingdoms are ruled by the devil. They do not honor proper recognition of originality stemming from God. They don't want to honor God's existence, nor His ability to speak a human language.

If the godless world is where you want to crystalize your definitions of originality, intellectual property, copyrights, and plagiarism then have at it. I will not join you in that descent to corruption.

In God's family God is the owner of the ideas that bless His people.

God gave some truths to B G Leonard and told him to bless His people with thenm, and he can use the goddess book market system to distribute it, and even enjoy some financial gain from the whole process.  The goal of that project between God and B G Leonard was to bless God's people. 

Well God had some people in Long Island who were hungry for God’s Word in 1971.

There was no way, in 1971, that any of us were going to be able to hear the Word from BG Leonard. Just none. 

The cultural barrier between the hippies and stoic disciplinarian Bible thumpers like BG was way too great for us to hear the Word.  It was also impossible from local churches. 

Thank God, VPW had no regard for the godless market and the godless academic world.  God pointed out to VPW that He had people who wanted to hear what BG Leonard had printed, and that the young people in Long Island needed to hear it by 1971.

God is the real owner of the ideas we received in the collaterals.
I refuse to budge on this.

The plagiarism and copyright laws have their place in our culture, but not the high and mighty place the people here put them.  The plagiarism and copyright charges leveled here are for one purpose, and that is to make the case stronger, that the anti-idol is pure evil.

I think it is hilarious when I think of VPW’s appropriate appropriation of the goodies God had been distributing here and there with various authors for over a hundred years.  I think it is hilarious that VPW blew off all the blue noses and wasted no time in getting the goodies distributed to us and around the world between 1953 and 1985.

Had he gone the normal route of asking permissions and paying licenses, that would have delayed the delivery of the collaterals to my fellowship on Long Island in 1971.  I think it is hilarious how he kept the simple collaterals simple and not cluttered with citations and pointers to literature that had truths mixed with lots of traditional error.

Every time someone tries to get me to consider dropping the collaterals because they don’t have the proper foot notes I just laugh at the stupidity of wanting to respect godless markets and godless academia, at the expense of God’s people being blessed.

Every time  someone tries to get me to consider dropping my respect for what God has produced, because He and VPW didn’t respect the copyright law of man, I just laugh, and type our more boilerplate exposing their error.  I have quite a large folder of items on this topic now. Someday I should write it all up in a book and copyright it.

Crying foul about copyrights is a sign of desperation here.

The crying foul about sexual problems in the ministry is right and proper.  I did it with my twig in 1980 with our own scaled down version of the Schoenheit paper,  6 years before he wrote it.  I know things went wrong there, and I have been working to fix that since 1980. 

But there is something GreaseSpot whistle blowers keep secret, and that is the sex problems at HQ were highly contained, and most of us who worked and lived there NEVER saw anything bad happen. We heard about it in the rumor mill, and the TVTs reflected lots of sex licentiousness, but most of us never saw anything wrong happen. 

I know one of VPW’s bus drivers, and he said he never saw anything unhealthy go on. Much later, after hearing true stories of sex problems, he was outraged, but still admits he saw nothing himself. I knew one VPW’s research people who had been with him since the 1960s, and she never saw one deviation from VPW in the sexual area.

This secret at GreaseSpot, of the extreme secrecy and rarity of the sex deviations at HQ, is kept under the rug here, and the sex charges are repeated over and over a thousand different ways to prop up the illusion of frequent, widespread, total depravity.  This is a bit of a desperate propping up, but because the goal is a pure evil anti-idol, it is constantly maintained with great diligence.

To aid in propping up the sexual deviations, the plagiarism charges are pumped up to a frenzy level.  The sex was secretive and rare enough to be undetectable by most, but the opportunities for plagiarism charges are out in the open and abundant. So, every time I see the plagiarism brought up, I know that poster has in the back of their minds that the sex charges need some support.

I am not happy with the ways sex was handled at TW1-1, but I salute VPW for recognizing and blowing off the copyright laws.  If EVER there was a time in our culture where we should say that we ought to obey God rather than men, it is in this copyrights and plagiarism issue where the intellectual ownership is clearly God’s.

 

 

[waysider]

You all know he wasn't really a "Dr.", right?

[chockfull]

11 hours ago, Rocky said:

There are humongous parallels between TWI and the COG, David Berg's Children of God cult. The differences are ONLY a matter of degrees. Literally and figuratively. Berg has substantially less education than Wierwille. Berg has a LOT more audaciousness regarding sex and sexual interaction. 

We KNOW women and girls in TWI used flirtatiousness to sell the class. We KNOW Vic had unabashed appetites, regarding sex and alcohol.

Berg very likely wouldn't have gotten away with preaching sexuality the way he did if he had stayed in the US.
 

It's astounding we still have people like Mike who push Vic's classes, "writings" (which were largely written by others), and doctrine.

Wierwille's motivations for establishing he subculture can only be inferred, but the practices were and still are FAR from biblical or godly.

Yes I started seeing that also in my Cults class.  Vastly different THINGS or CONCEPTS being sold.   Very very similar tactics to accomplish it.

like the following

1.  A specific date of Christs return - those cults many times end in mass suicide

2. A new understanding of scripture from the 1st century

3. An angel with new “God breathed” scripture

4.  A self help series of classes supposedly built on the natural way the mind works

But all of those organizations pull people away from their support circles and extract all available free spending income so that the leaders can live like kings.  Whether it is riches, land, popularity, influence, or all the little servants scuttling around to meet their every need, all have the love of power.  
 

All have mandatory financial flow in to the center of the leadership.  All have free obligatory proselytizing operations, where the youth and the laity do all of the work while the leaders do not do that work.  All set up communication systems of inner Pharisees to insulate the top leaders from ever having to deal directly with a problem.  Proverbs describes the inner signals they use to each other.

The benefit to all looking at common tactics is so that they no longer remain hidden to the investigators.

[chockfull]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

That is called plagiarism where? 
It is in the godless book market, and in godless academia. 

 

 

Those two kingdoms are ruled by the devil. They do not honor proper recognition of originality stemming from God. They don't want to honor God's existence, nor His ability to speak a human language.

 

 

If the godless world is where you want to crystalize your definitions of originality, intellectual property, copyrights, and plagiarism then have at it. I will not join you in that descent to corruption.

 

 

In God's family God is the owner of the ideas that bless His people.

 

 

God gave some truths to B G Leonard and told him to bless His people with thenm, and he can use the goddess book market system to distribute it, and even enjoy some financial gain from the whole process.  The goal of that project between God and B G Leonard was to bless God's people. 

 

 

Well God had some people in Long Island who were hungry for God’s Word in 1971.

 

 

There was no way, in 1971, that any of us were going to be able to hear the Word from BG Leonard. Just none. 

 

 

The cultural barrier between the hippies and stoic disciplinarian Bible thumpers like BG was way too great for us to hear the Word.  It was also impossible from local churches. 

 

 

Thank God, VPW had no regard for the godless market and the godless academic world.  God pointed out to VPW that He had people who wanted to hear what BG Leonard had printed, and that the young people in Long Island needed to hear it by 1971.

 

 

God is the real owner of the ideas we received in the collaterals.
I refuse to budge on this.

 

 

The plagiarism and copyright laws have their place in our culture, but not the high and mighty place the people here put them.  The plagiarism and copyright charges leveled here are for one purpose, and that is to make the case stronger, that the anti-idol is pure evil.

 

 

I think it is hilarious when I think of VPW’s appropriate appropriation of the goodies God had been distributing here and there with various authors for over a hundred years.  I think it is hilarious that VPW blew off all the blue noses and wasted no time in getting the goodies distributed to us and around the world between 1953 and 1985.

 

 

Had he gone the normal route of asking permissions and paying licenses, that would have delayed the delivery of the collaterals to my fellowship on Long Island in 1971.  I think it is hilarious how he kept the simple collaterals simple and not cluttered with citations and pointers to literature that had truths mixed with lots of traditional error.

 

 

Every time someone tries to get me to consider dropping the collaterals because they don’t have the proper foot notes I just laugh at the stupidity of wanting to respect godless markets and godless academia, at the expense of God’s people being blessed.

 

 

Every time  someone tries to get me to consider dropping my respect for what God has produced, because He and VPW didn’t respect the copyright law of man, I just laugh, and type our more boilerplate exposing their error.  I have quite a large folder of items on this topic now. Someday I should write it all up in a book and copyright it.

 

 

Crying foul about copyrights is a sign of desperation here.

 

 

The crying foul about sexual problems in the ministry is right and proper.  I did it with my twig in 1980 with our own scaled down version of the Schoenheit paper,  6 years before he wrote it.  I know things went wrong there, and I have been working to fix that since 1980. 

 

 

But there is something GreaseSpot whistle blowers keep secret, and that is the sex problems at HQ were highly contained, and most of us who worked and lived there NEVER saw anything bad happen. We heard about it in the rumor mill, and the TVTs reflected lots of sex licentiousness, but most of us never saw anything wrong happen. 

 

 

I know one of VPW’s bus drivers, and he said he never saw anything unhealthy go on. Much later, after hearing true stories of sex problems, he was outraged, but still admits he saw nothing himself. I knew one VPW’s research people who had been with him since the 1960s, and she never saw one deviation from VPW in the sexual area.

 

 

This secret at GreaseSpot, of the extreme secrecy and rarity of the sex deviations at HQ, is kept under the rug here, and the sex charges are repeated over and over a thousand different ways to prop up the illusion of frequent, widespread, total depravity.  This is a bit of a desperate propping up, but because the goal is a pure evil anti-idol, it is constantly maintained with great diligence.

 

 

To aid in propping up the sexual deviations, the plagiarism charges are pumped up to a frenzy level.  The sex was secretive and rare enough to be undetectable by most, but the opportunities for plagiarism charges are out in the open and abundant. So, every time I see the plagiarism brought up, I know that poster has in the back of their minds that the sex charges need some support.

 

 

I am not happy with the ways sex was handled at TW1-1, but I salute VPW for recognizing and blowing off the copyright laws.  If EVER there was a time in our culture where we should say that we ought to obey God rather than men, it is in this copyrights and plagiarism issue where the intellectual ownership is clearly God’s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_steal

[OldSkool]

9 minutes ago, Mike said:

That is called plagiarism where? 
It is in the godless book market, and in godless academia. 

 

 

Those two kingdoms are ruled by the devil. They do not honor proper recognition of originality stemming from God. They don't want to honor God's existence, nor His ability to speak a human language.

 

 

If the godless world is where you want to crystalize your definitions of originality, intellectual property, copyrights, and plagiarism then have at it. I will not join you in that descent to corruption.

 

 

In God's family God is the owner of the ideas that bless His people.

 

 

God gave some truths to B G Leonard and told him to bless His people with thenm, and he can use the goddess book market system to distribute it, and even enjoy some financial gain from the whole process.  The goal of that project between God and B G Leonard was to bless God's people. 

 

 

Well God had some people in Long Island who were hungry for God’s Word in 1971.

 

 

There was no way, in 1971, that any of us were going to be able to hear the Word from BG Leonard. Just none. 

 

 

The cultural barrier between the hippies and stoic disciplinarian Bible thumpers like BG was way too great for us to hear the Word.  It was also impossible from local churches. 

 

 

Thank God, VPW had no regard for the godless market and the godless academic world.  God pointed out to VPW that He had people who wanted to hear what BG Leonard had printed, and that the young people in Long Island needed to hear it by 1971.

 

 

God is the real owner of the ideas we received in the collaterals.
I refuse to budge on this.

 

 

The plagiarism and copyright laws have their place in our culture, but not the high and mighty place the people here put them.  The plagiarism and copyright charges leveled here are for one purpose, and that is to make the case stronger, that the anti-idol is pure evil.

 

 

I think it is hilarious when I think of VPW’s appropriate appropriation of the goodies God had been distributing here and there with various authors for over a hundred years.  I think it is hilarious that VPW blew off all the blue noses and wasted no time in getting the goodies distributed to us and around the world between 1953 and 1985.

 

 

Had he gone the normal route of asking permissions and paying licenses, that would have delayed the delivery of the collaterals to my fellowship on Long Island in 1971.  I think it is hilarious how he kept the simple collaterals simple and not cluttered with citations and pointers to literature that had truths mixed with lots of traditional error.

 

 

Every time someone tries to get me to consider dropping the collaterals because they don’t have the proper foot notes I just laugh at the stupidity of wanting to respect godless markets and godless academia, at the expense of God’s people being blessed.

 

 

Every time  someone tries to get me to consider dropping my respect for what God has produced, because He and VPW didn’t respect the copyright law of man, I just laugh, and type our more boilerplate exposing their error.  I have quite a large folder of items on this topic now. Someday I should write it all up in a book and copyright it.

 

 

Crying foul about copyrights is a sign of desperation here.

 

 

The crying foul about sexual problems in the ministry is right and proper.  I did it with my twig in 1980 with our own scaled down version of the Schoenheit paper,  6 years before he wrote it.  I know things went wrong there, and I have been working to fix that since 1980. 

 

 

But there is something GreaseSpot whistle blowers keep secret, and that is the sex problems at HQ were highly contained, and most of us who worked and lived there NEVER saw anything bad happen. We heard about it in the rumor mill, and the TVTs reflected lots of sex licentiousness, but most of us never saw anything wrong happen. 

 

 

I know one of VPW’s bus drivers, and he said he never saw anything unhealthy go on. Much later, after hearing true stories of sex problems, he was outraged, but still admits he saw nothing himself. I knew one VPW’s research people who had been with him since the 1960s, and she never saw one deviation from VPW in the sexual area.

 

 

This secret at GreaseSpot, of the extreme secrecy and rarity of the sex deviations at HQ, is kept under the rug here, and the sex charges are repeated over and over a thousand different ways to prop up the illusion of frequent, widespread, total depravity.  This is a bit of a desperate propping up, but because the goal is a pure evil anti-idol, it is constantly maintained with great diligence.

 

 

To aid in propping up the sexual deviations, the plagiarism charges are pumped up to a frenzy level.  The sex was secretive and rare enough to be undetectable by most, but the opportunities for plagiarism charges are out in the open and abundant. So, every time I see the plagiarism brought up, I know that poster has in the back of their minds that the sex charges need some support.

 

 

I am not happy with the ways sex was handled at TW1-1, but I salute VPW for recognizing and blowing off the copyright laws.  If EVER there was a time in our culture where we should say that we ought to obey God rather than men, it is in this copyrights and plagiarism issue where the intellectual ownership is clearly God’s.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Complete bullshonta. You are willing to remove every boundary of decency, integrity, and honesty to preserve your adoration of wierwille.

Edited December 29, 2022 by OldSkool

[Mike]

1 minute ago, waysider said:

You all know he wasn't really a "Dr.", right?

I have a post on that by Research Geek from many years ago on Pikes Peak and Dr's doctorate. 

Pikes Peak

 

For me he did earn that degree, and I might remind you of Research Geek's post here on how he investigated that deal by going to Pikes Peak and checking out the record. He's one of the very few GreaseSpotters that seem to have done this kind of thing, not shoot from the hip, but investigate objectively. Others here will dig for dirt, but miss the gold.

originally posted by Research Geek October 04, 2002:

I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary.

I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around.

The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.

The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions.

vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree.

But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.

I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.

So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.


I might distance myself from a few of the opinions expressed at the end of the above post, but the bulk of it is quite noteworthy. I urge the objectors to dig deeper than just listening to what's in the wind, and not base crucial life decisions on the lies of people who didn't bother to get informed.

Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate.

 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, OldSkool said:

Mike, thats called plagairaisim and lying. Wierwille basically stated that Receiving the holy spirit today was received by revelation after he tossed his imaginary 3000 book library to the city dump and checked himself into a hotel for a week eating a diet of grapes. Wake up. I hate seeing anyone so blinded to the obvious truth that wierwille was a charlatan.

Maybe we should open up our RHST and see where exactly he says that. Can you cite the passage you are referring to?

[OldSkool]

5 minutes ago, Mike said:

But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in and get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize.

It was always that way it didn't happen after wierwille...the place handed out mail in doctorates in a state that allows religious accreditation but the accreditation is worthless as stated by the state of Colorado. Wierwille was a fake.

Edited December 29, 2022 by OldSkool

[OldSkool]

1 minute ago, Mike said:

Maybe we should open up our RHST and see where exactly he says that. Can you cite the passage you are referring to?

If your so proficient with wierwilles garbage u should know where to find the reference. It's been edited out afaik now in newer versions.

Edited December 29, 2022 by OldSkool

[Mike]

28 minutes ago, chockfull said:

I am not buying the camera shy bit.  Not from a man with a correspondence school doctorate in homiletics.  That’s what he studied.  He was anything but camera shy. 

Sounds like you never saw the black and white 1963 version of Session One.  He was not polished and not nearly as together as he is in the 1968 color film.