In this guys defense...there are a couple of wacko's in greasespotland that he/they most likely DON"T want posting in twiland.
What amuses me the most if the fact that finally, after ALL the major misdeeds have been exposedthey now *allow* their people a *public* forum.
It's almost as if, the old timers are numb to what went on and the younger crowd who must be the oldtimers kids could care less.
Wanna know what I think?
While these kids are for the most part hostages to a closed personality cult (wthout personality)I'll bet as these kids grow up and go off to college, that mom n dad will be seeing less and less of the youngsters as they slowly fade (or run) into the sunset.
How is it you got to the message board, Pat? You are the 2nd person who has indicated the board was back up, but I still get the under construction message.
Some Sections of this site are "Under Construction"
There will be progressive changes over the next few weeks
_______________________
Hmmmm. We'll see.
C'mon Johnny. You were on to something good, something revolutionary and different within TWI. Just like in the old days you speak of so fondly, only with modern tools.
Don't cave in to fear now. You only live once. Dare you even TRY to make a difference?
I wrote this a few pages back, and it would seem that it's coming to pass:
"The more I think of this whole thing, the more certain I feel, that no matter how respectfully those of the Ex-Way Community might try to engage in a meaningful discouse in the context of this new Way bully pulpit, they will find out in no uncertain terms that their POV is not welcome. Serious examination of the Way's history, its present, its doctrine, will NOT be tolerated on this new site. This site is meant to be a "feel good" meeting place on the net for Way people and potential Way people. They are trying to reinvent The Way, reinvigorate its ranks. Anything that does not contribute to this aim, confirm the new party line, and the "greatness of The Household" will not be tolerated.
In other words, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED!"
In other words, Ex-Way NOT WELCOME, unless you've "come to your senses" and desire to enter again in to bondage---errr, I mean---rejoin God's one true household -->
How is it you got to the message board, Pat? You are the 2nd person who has indicated the board was back up, but I still get the under construction message.
My password doesn't get me in anymore. This is the message I get:
quote:Authorization Required
This server could not verify that you are authorized to access the document requested. Either you supplied the wrong credentials (e.g., bad password), or your browser doesn't understand how to supply the credentials required.
Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
So either it's now "by invitationn only," or he is in the process of revamping, although I tend to agree with Cherished Child.
I've visited several times a day for almost a week now and I've noticed that what you say is accurate. I've noticed a steady evolution in the construction, with little tweaks here and there.
I can readily imagine that construction takes time and that it progresses in stages.
I'm confident that it is wise for you to take the same precautions on your site that Pawtucket has taken here. The Internet can be a very unfriendly place, and proper security in a discussion website is a time consuming and necessary task... and very technically demanding too!
*******
dmiller,
I'm with you, and a couple of weeks is easy for me to wait. Gads! I can blink and a couple of MONTHS can fly by.
It's not like we paid for something and are being delayed in receiving what's ours.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of TWI people trying to change things we can be patient. There is a steady, albeit slow, but still steady pace of changes we've been seeing for at least a year now. Who knows how many other internal changes are going on that we've not been able to see?
Hope springs eternal, right Mike? I wish I could be as optimistic about the potential for significant positive change within TWI, but given the fact that the current topmost leadership is the same leadership that lied under oath in courts of law to cover their sins, the same leadership that enthusiastically aided LCM (some might say, were indeed the "Idea men"---or women--- for his actions)in carrying out his scorced earth policies, I rather doubt optimism is called for.
Mike, I'm all for forgiveness. Forgiveness and trust, however, are two different matters entirely.
I'll put my trust in God and let Rosalie and her yes-men do what they please. They have no effect on my life, and I'm not particularly interested in any positive spin they might try to put on what's left of twi.
As far as I'm concerned, twi has become just another controlling fundie outfit that got caught with its pants down and is trying to wear the look that cats have mastered so well: the one that says "Well, I meant to do that!"
I agree that terrible mistakes occurred there, and that they finally got caught.
But instead of vanquishing them now, like what happened to Germany after WWI, I think we should take the higher road, like the course that was taken after WWII with Germany and Japan in rebuilding them.
I am in communication with a very small number of innies who are trying to re-build from within. The loving thing for me to do is to help them with the love of God, and try to think the best of them, and not rub salt in their wounds by insisting on all sorts of immediate and public apologies and other types of further humiliations.
As far as trust, I agree with you. Trust and respect must be earned, and the organization as a whole has too much inertia to trust it or anyone representing it as a whole. Individuals within that organization are in the process of earning my respect and limited trust, though. I think that's good news, and a step above blind good expectations.
They have children and new people in their flock, and all our approaches to them must lovingly take this into account. I'll bet the innies know even better than we do how bad it all got, yet they have to shield their flock from discouragement. To the extent we let them know we will help them in this respect we can earn some trust from them. God does this for you and me. If He dealt with us and our sins with a vanquishing heart we'd never respond to Him. Instead He is gentle and does not deal with after our sins, but casts them as far as the east is from the west, and He remembers them no more.
The has been enough humiliation on all sides, and someone has to initiate the peace process. We are in a position here to do that.
I have no desire to vanquish anyone. Nor do I harbor any ill feelings toward innies trying to hang in there and "rebuild." It's my view that they're wasting their time, but it's their time to waste and I wish them well. I know from experience that God can and will bless people for their pure-hearted actions.
I'm sure you've heard that children's song: "The wise man built his house upon a rock" and "...the foolish man built his house upon the sand."
Twi is a sandy foundation on which to build anything; it's the proverbial shifting sand. Yesterday's doctrine is today's "old wineskin," and made-up hocus-pocus is trotted out as "the present truth."
Until the people in top leadership positions within twi either (a) leave or (b) wake up and truly build on THE Rock, Jesus Christ, instead of talking about it in flowery words, the sands will continue to shift.
I agree, and think you do have that gentleness of heart. :)-->
Yes there were many shifting sands there. I call it TVT for Twi's Verbal tradition.
I do see something solid in what found it's way into print prior to 1985. I believe I have you to partially thank for that. Didn't you work in print publications?
Change CANNOT occur within TWI until there has been acknowledgement of the need for it. I'm not asking that those at the top so wallow in self condemnation that they stick themselves in the eye with a fork, and fall prostrate at my feet, but I happen to know that they have yet to acknowlege, even to their own faithful, that things got spiritually out of hand, or that mistakes need correcting. I strongly believe there is still a great deal of the "sin of pride" working in the hearts of those at the topand that their foundation is still "shifting sand", as Linda Z has aptly pointed out.
Out of curiousity, what makes you feel so optimistic about the future of TWI, Mike?
It's what I want to happen, so I magnify any good sparks of life I see to fan those good flames. I'm seeing more sparks this past year than in the past 15 to 20 years.
I do the same here.
From my perspective, I ask myself WHY would God go to all that trouble to get those great books printed and distributed around the globe? In His foreknowledge He must have seen a good final outcome.
We may never see the organization as a whole turn around, but I still expect the older grads who saw this Word in PFAL once work, will finally come back to it.
So many things are in place to help it along: this latest website is just one.... the power of the internet... the greatly reduced cost of long distance telephone plans.... the common use of computers for word studies or sharing transcripts, verses, and passages in PFAL study...
A great spark of hope is the recent willingness to communicate a little. That Harve Platig wanting his letter posted here greatly encouraged me. A month after that issue calmed down I was able to get a phone call through to him to thank him. It was quite pleasant. I thanked him for that beginning of communication, and we briefly talked about the prospects of the bookstore opening. It opened a few months later. Things are slowly thawing over there.
I'm slowly communicating with a few of them here in town. It's slow and muted, but much more than ever before.
I dunno, Mike, what would be so bad if TWI were to apologize? They might show their followers that they are in fact fallible, and that they haven't mastered the revelation manifestations by a long shot. It would also preclude them from passing judgment on their innies at the drop of a hat, and usher in a whole new era of mutual love and respect.
The least an apology would do would be to get a percentage of us off their backs. You'd think they have thought of that already- that alone might be worth the price of swallowing some pride (even in appearance only) and making the big step. But nooooo, "god" just CANNOT be wrong.
The conditions for forgiveness presented by some folk here are pretty reasonable- quit lying, cheating, stealing and worse. Start being honest, tell the truth- even if it "hurts". Prove that you really care. Open the doors of communication wide. Free the slaves. Anyone else noticed their message board is STILL "under construction"? I read some of the posts- not mean or vindictive, just "have you straightened yourself out yet?" In my opinion, that much effort for reconciliation is more than they deserve.
They probably have my name and address somewhere. Most folk could find my name and address in about fifteen seconds. As of yet, all I hear is the wind blowing in the corn fields, and I do not really expect anything from them.
The nice "open" letter of dear Harve did not impress me either- I don't even see why he bothered.
To me, it wasn't worth the effort of reading. The way I read it he was really saying "This is why we choose to be evil, and this is why it is right". But it did cause no small furor. Some here actually thought that they would have a real exchange of ideas with them. Never happened. I highly doubt that good ole Harve even read some of the replies to his posted letter.
As to the new website, "we use the internet, now" is hardly a qualification for forgiveness. "We answer the phone once in a blue moon now" is not either.
Now, about Germany.. there could be no new, modern Germany until Hitler and his henchmen were utterly crushed.
Interesting that many of the henchmen denied accountability of their actions all the way to their deaths. "We were just following orders", "the Jews had proven themselves to be our enemies" or some such nonsense. Before Hitler, the Jews were among the most loyal among Germans. Personally, I believe that if you carry out an unlawful order you are very accountable for the consequences.
This is the parallel that I see with Germany- an organization that raped some, tortured more, and cast out most of their most faithful followers. In my opinion, their hands are blood-stained in at least one instance. "Well, I got some good out of it, they did not rape me". Well, that's OK. They did not rape you, they only raped your sister.
Unless there are some REAL changes on their end, the only rebuilding they are going to get is after the place gets bulldozed over.
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dmiller
Hmpppph -- I registered there, and got banned. Guess they want lily-white posts.
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Mike
What did you post?
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Belle
dmiller, how did you get banned? The message boards are still down. Could it be just a mis-understanding?
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pjroberge
I just tried the message boards and there is now a user name and password required
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herbiejuan
How funny!
In this guys defense...there are a couple of wacko's in greasespotland that he/they most likely DON"T want posting in twiland.
What amuses me the most if the fact that finally, after ALL the major misdeeds have been exposed they now *allow* their people a *public* forum.
It's almost as if, the old timers are numb to what went on and the younger crowd who must be the oldtimers kids could care less.
Wanna know what I think?
While these kids are for the most part hostages to a closed personality cult (wthout personality)I'll bet as these kids grow up and go off to college, that mom n dad will be seeing less and less of the youngsters as they slowly fade (or run) into the sunset.
Call it a hunch
;)-->
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Abigail
How is it you got to the message board, Pat? You are the 2nd person who has indicated the board was back up, but I still get the under construction message.
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igotout
Updated 1/22/05
Some Sections of this site are "Under Construction"
There will be progressive changes over the next few weeks
_______________________
Hmmmm. We'll see.
C'mon Johnny. You were on to something good, something revolutionary and different within TWI. Just like in the old days you speak of so fondly, only with modern tools.
Don't cave in to fear now. You only live once. Dare you even TRY to make a difference?
We'll see.
John R.
Tampa, FL
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Cherished Child
I wrote this a few pages back, and it would seem that it's coming to pass:
"The more I think of this whole thing, the more certain I feel, that no matter how respectfully those of the Ex-Way Community might try to engage in a meaningful discouse in the context of this new Way bully pulpit, they will find out in no uncertain terms that their POV is not welcome. Serious examination of the Way's history, its present, its doctrine, will NOT be tolerated on this new site. This site is meant to be a "feel good" meeting place on the net for Way people and potential Way people. They are trying to reinvent The Way, reinvigorate its ranks. Anything that does not contribute to this aim, confirm the new party line, and the "greatness of The Household" will not be tolerated.
In other words, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED, YOU WILL BE BLOCKED!"
In other words, Ex-Way NOT WELCOME, unless you've "come to your senses" and desire to enter again in to bondage---errr, I mean---rejoin God's one true household -->
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laleo
http://www.familytables.net/forum
My password doesn't get me in anymore. This is the message I get:
So either it's now "by invitationn only," or he is in the process of revamping, although I tend to agree with Cherished Child.Link to comment
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Oakspear
I got the same message. I sent a message to the webmaster asking him what was up.
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yophoto
"Under Construction" means under construction.
New color schemes on a couple of sections already. -->
-JB
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dmiller
Could be Belle. Meebe I am just too impatiant. I'll give them a coupla more weeks, to finish construction.
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Mike
yophoto,
I've visited several times a day for almost a week now and I've noticed that what you say is accurate. I've noticed a steady evolution in the construction, with little tweaks here and there.
I can readily imagine that construction takes time and that it progresses in stages.
I'm confident that it is wise for you to take the same precautions on your site that Pawtucket has taken here. The Internet can be a very unfriendly place, and proper security in a discussion website is a time consuming and necessary task... and very technically demanding too!
*******
dmiller,
I'm with you, and a couple of weeks is easy for me to wait. Gads! I can blink and a couple of MONTHS can fly by.
It's not like we paid for something and are being delayed in receiving what's ours.
If we put ourselves in the shoes of TWI people trying to change things we can be patient. There is a steady, albeit slow, but still steady pace of changes we've been seeing for at least a year now. Who knows how many other internal changes are going on that we've not been able to see?
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Cherished Child
Hope springs eternal, right Mike? I wish I could be as optimistic about the potential for significant positive change within TWI, but given the fact that the current topmost leadership is the same leadership that lied under oath in courts of law to cover their sins, the same leadership that enthusiastically aided LCM (some might say, were indeed the "Idea men"---or women--- for his actions)in carrying out his scorced earth policies, I rather doubt optimism is called for.
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Mike
Cherished Child,
I try to speak up as much as possible, and expect changes for the best for people here at Greasespot, when I talk to them at TWI too. :)-->
I see differing flaws on both sides of this equation, but I see great potential on both sides too.
Remember how God forgave Judas and David, and ... you and me!
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Linda Z
Mike, I'm all for forgiveness. Forgiveness and trust, however, are two different matters entirely.
I'll put my trust in God and let Rosalie and her yes-men do what they please. They have no effect on my life, and I'm not particularly interested in any positive spin they might try to put on what's left of twi.
As far as I'm concerned, twi has become just another controlling fundie outfit that got caught with its pants down and is trying to wear the look that cats have mastered so well: the one that says "Well, I meant to do that!"
Linda
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Mike
Linda Z,
I agree that terrible mistakes occurred there, and that they finally got caught.
But instead of vanquishing them now, like what happened to Germany after WWI, I think we should take the higher road, like the course that was taken after WWII with Germany and Japan in rebuilding them.
I am in communication with a very small number of innies who are trying to re-build from within. The loving thing for me to do is to help them with the love of God, and try to think the best of them, and not rub salt in their wounds by insisting on all sorts of immediate and public apologies and other types of further humiliations.
As far as trust, I agree with you. Trust and respect must be earned, and the organization as a whole has too much inertia to trust it or anyone representing it as a whole. Individuals within that organization are in the process of earning my respect and limited trust, though. I think that's good news, and a step above blind good expectations.
They have children and new people in their flock, and all our approaches to them must lovingly take this into account. I'll bet the innies know even better than we do how bad it all got, yet they have to shield their flock from discouragement. To the extent we let them know we will help them in this respect we can earn some trust from them. God does this for you and me. If He dealt with us and our sins with a vanquishing heart we'd never respond to Him. Instead He is gentle and does not deal with after our sins, but casts them as far as the east is from the west, and He remembers them no more.
The has been enough humiliation on all sides, and someone has to initiate the peace process. We are in a position here to do that.
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Linda Z
Mike:
I have no desire to vanquish anyone. Nor do I harbor any ill feelings toward innies trying to hang in there and "rebuild." It's my view that they're wasting their time, but it's their time to waste and I wish them well. I know from experience that God can and will bless people for their pure-hearted actions.
I'm sure you've heard that children's song: "The wise man built his house upon a rock" and "...the foolish man built his house upon the sand."
Twi is a sandy foundation on which to build anything; it's the proverbial shifting sand. Yesterday's doctrine is today's "old wineskin," and made-up hocus-pocus is trotted out as "the present truth."
Until the people in top leadership positions within twi either (a) leave or (b) wake up and truly build on THE Rock, Jesus Christ, instead of talking about it in flowery words, the sands will continue to shift.
Edited to fix typo-roonis
Edited by Linda ZLink to comment
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Mike
Linda Z,
I agree, and think you do have that gentleness of heart. :)-->
Yes there were many shifting sands there. I call it TVT for Twi's Verbal tradition.
I do see something solid in what found it's way into print prior to 1985. I believe I have you to partially thank for that. Didn't you work in print publications?
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Cherished Child
Change CANNOT occur within TWI until there has been acknowledgement of the need for it. I'm not asking that those at the top so wallow in self condemnation that they stick themselves in the eye with a fork, and fall prostrate at my feet, but I happen to know that they have yet to acknowlege, even to their own faithful, that things got spiritually out of hand, or that mistakes need correcting. I strongly believe there is still a great deal of the "sin of pride" working in the hearts of those at the topand that their foundation is still "shifting sand", as Linda Z has aptly pointed out.
Out of curiousity, what makes you feel so optimistic about the future of TWI, Mike?
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Mike
It's what I want to happen, so I magnify any good sparks of life I see to fan those good flames. I'm seeing more sparks this past year than in the past 15 to 20 years.
I do the same here.
From my perspective, I ask myself WHY would God go to all that trouble to get those great books printed and distributed around the globe? In His foreknowledge He must have seen a good final outcome.
We may never see the organization as a whole turn around, but I still expect the older grads who saw this Word in PFAL once work, will finally come back to it.
So many things are in place to help it along: this latest website is just one.... the power of the internet... the greatly reduced cost of long distance telephone plans.... the common use of computers for word studies or sharing transcripts, verses, and passages in PFAL study...
A great spark of hope is the recent willingness to communicate a little. That Harve Platig wanting his letter posted here greatly encouraged me. A month after that issue calmed down I was able to get a phone call through to him to thank him. It was quite pleasant. I thanked him for that beginning of communication, and we briefly talked about the prospects of the bookstore opening. It opened a few months later. Things are slowly thawing over there.
I'm slowly communicating with a few of them here in town. It's slow and muted, but much more than ever before.
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shazdancer
I dunno, Mike, what would be so bad if TWI were to apologize? They might show their followers that they are in fact fallible, and that they haven't mastered the revelation manifestations by a long shot. It would also preclude them from passing judgment on their innies at the drop of a hat, and usher in a whole new era of mutual love and respect.
I'm not holding my breath.
Regards,
Shaz
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Ham
The least an apology would do would be to get a percentage of us off their backs. You'd think they have thought of that already- that alone might be worth the price of swallowing some pride (even in appearance only) and making the big step. But nooooo, "god" just CANNOT be wrong.
The conditions for forgiveness presented by some folk here are pretty reasonable- quit lying, cheating, stealing and worse. Start being honest, tell the truth- even if it "hurts". Prove that you really care. Open the doors of communication wide. Free the slaves. Anyone else noticed their message board is STILL "under construction"? I read some of the posts- not mean or vindictive, just "have you straightened yourself out yet?" In my opinion, that much effort for reconciliation is more than they deserve.
They probably have my name and address somewhere. Most folk could find my name and address in about fifteen seconds. As of yet, all I hear is the wind blowing in the corn fields, and I do not really expect anything from them.
The nice "open" letter of dear Harve did not impress me either- I don't even see why he bothered.
To me, it wasn't worth the effort of reading. The way I read it he was really saying "This is why we choose to be evil, and this is why it is right". But it did cause no small furor. Some here actually thought that they would have a real exchange of ideas with them. Never happened. I highly doubt that good ole Harve even read some of the replies to his posted letter.
As to the new website, "we use the internet, now" is hardly a qualification for forgiveness. "We answer the phone once in a blue moon now" is not either.
Same hard hearted, recalcitrant bunch of idiots.
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Ham
Now, about Germany.. there could be no new, modern Germany until Hitler and his henchmen were utterly crushed.
Interesting that many of the henchmen denied accountability of their actions all the way to their deaths. "We were just following orders", "the Jews had proven themselves to be our enemies" or some such nonsense. Before Hitler, the Jews were among the most loyal among Germans. Personally, I believe that if you carry out an unlawful order you are very accountable for the consequences.
This is the parallel that I see with Germany- an organization that raped some, tortured more, and cast out most of their most faithful followers. In my opinion, their hands are blood-stained in at least one instance. "Well, I got some good out of it, they did not rape me". Well, that's OK. They did not rape you, they only raped your sister.
Unless there are some REAL changes on their end, the only rebuilding they are going to get is after the place gets bulldozed over.
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