Sometimes I think that Vic picked the Loy because he knew the minstry would implode. VPW thrived on power. Loy fed that thriving, but VPW must have known that Loy didn't pack the gear to keep the con going.
When Craig was picked , people were surpsised. But since it was 'revelation' people accepted it.
Now, since it's obvious that no revelation occured, what made Vic chose Craig?
The answer is, I have no idea and can't figure it out. The only thing I can think is Craig talked him into it, lobbied for the job, made the other candidates look bad and yes conned Vic.
There is no defense to treat vic the way Craig did. BUT I was around Vic at that time and the general 'backstage" perception was that Vic was losing it, senile, alzhimers, whatever. Even members of Vic's family would talk about how Vic was losing his mind.
That gave Craig more power and an excuse to write off his 'mentor'.
I don't think any of it was a con job. I truly think they lcm believed in the MOGFAT crap, and he kissed VPs holy ring. LCM was just an overbearing arse who got out of control. And then he liked being the MOGFART himself so that others could kiss his holy ring.
The whole issue about blackmail doesn't make sense to me because the sexual escapades of both men (and the others) was an accepted dysfunctionality throughout twi. It just came with the territory of being a bigwig in the cult.
Until the day of his "coronation", king okie used to run around kissing Vics foot all day long...as soon as he becomes president, he starts treating Vic like the idiot uncle that we hide in the basement...
I don't think he treated him that way. I think he thought he was taking the man's ideas and pursuing him. I think that vpw thought differently came as a genuine shock to him. Of course vpw probably never confronted him about it - just sat and stewed and mouthed off to Geer till he died. Then Geer thinking he was doing god's will expounded the POP.
I left shortly after that, but from what I've heard, most of LCM's concious deviations from VPW came after he died.
And I don't think craig was smart enough to con vpw.
LCM, for all his faults, was great at working a crowd. He could get everybody jazzed up and thinking they were hearing from God Almighty - at least in his earlier years, before he started spitting and swearing so much.
Given that he was such a lapdog for VPW, and Wierwille, thinking he had some exclusive connection to Divine wisdom, went for a showman. Someone who was entirely style over substance, but then, wasn't that VPW as well?
I don't think there were a lot of hidden mechanisations behind the choice. It was just a stupid decision. Lots of those were made...
VPW had picked out Craig's wife for him, gave him "front and center" at every big event, and heaped praises on him regularly. To me it was obvious that LoyBoy was being groomed for the part for many years prior...
quote:LCM, for all his faults, was great at working a crowd. He could get everybody jazzed up and thinking they were hearing from God Almighty - at least in his earlier years, before he started spitting and swearing so much.
The first time I heard him work a crowd was ROA '74. I thought he was an insufferable prick. I even felt guilty for feeling that.
"I don't think he treated him that way. I think he thought he was taking the man's ideas and pursuing him."
There was definetly a period towards the end of VPW's life that Craig and the Trustees treated VPW like an old man who was out to pasture. They ignored and even mocked him.
i don't think veepee could "handle" passing the pelt to ANYONE. had it been someone else, i think he still would have been crying
and when he cried to nutcase geer, they cried together ("you're the only one who understands me, chrissie") and geer thought something like "I should have been the MOG"
I have to agree with George...Vic chose the Okie because of his charisma...LCM could hold the crowds better than any of the other stooges. He built the thing on showmanship and he figured that he should keep it that way. Walter had the leadership abilities of Mr Rogers, Geer had the personality of a nazi prison guard, Ralph was too blue collar and unpretenious and JAL was just a "lite" version of LCM. Vic wanted somebody that could fill the big top. All style, no substance.
...And I also fully expected Martindale to be chosen. I would have been stunned had it been anyone else.
No doubt, Craig lobbied heavily for the job...but I think Vic had planned, since about 1978, to give him the job...Vic loved his brash mouth.
I agree with Uncle Hairy ... and I think VPW was quite surprised, even more than those of us in at the time, that Craig gave up the duties of the presidency to be a ballerina ... sheer ego.
When I got involved in TWI in Queens NY, there wren't very many Way Corps, you had to go several steps up the ladder to find one. We had nine or ten branches on Long Island with not one led by Way Corps. Never heard Martindale's name mentioned, and if I did I promptly forgot it. We tended to think that Dubofskey, Finnegan and Lynn were more likely candidates (2 NYers and our Limb Coordinator - made sense to us ;)-->)
Only when I went WOW in 1980, and had a 10th Corps guy as a family coordinator, did I start hearing about Craig. A few months into the WOW year the announcement was made.
Our Limb Coordinator at the time asked me shortly after the announcement what I thought of the "President-Elect". Of course I'm thinking of Ronald Reagan, who was just elected for the first time (nobody elected Martindale). I said something like, we'll just have to wait and see, I don't know if he can do the job
quote: Our Limb Coordinator at the time asked me shortly after the announcement what I thought of the "President-Elect". Of course I'm thinking of Ronald Reagan,
:D--> :D--> :D--> :D-->
I showed up after this whole thing so have no first-hand info. However, Ole Craig conned so many other folks later that I think it had to be going on before 1985. Craig conning people, that is.
I didn’t get into twi until Craig had already been chosen. The first time I heard him speak, I also thought he was an insufferable pr#ck. (well said George!) But I was new, and he was pres-elect, so I just kept that thought to myself.
I agree that VP ultimately chose Craiggers because of his showmanship. I’ve heard he really wanted (shoot! mind-blank… who used to teach corps night for him???) but he got talked into picking Craig because he was more charismatic than the others.
Either way, I don’t think it ever occurred to Vic that he was going to lose control. Every single candidate for the presidency was a toady of his… I really think he thought he was just going to continue pulling the strings from behind the curtain; that stepping down would just give him a little more play time, that’s all.
But I think that once Vic was no longer in the position where he could hold a club over their heads, Don and Howard and even Craig, automatically started pushing Vic off to the side. Whether this was conscious decision or an unconscious reaction is a mystery to me, but there is no doubt it happened. Throughout 84-85 I heard Don W. say snide things about his dad, and I definitely heard VP criticize LCM for his involvement in Athletes. And Vic’s last few teachings were all about “the leadership at HQ doesn’t have time for me, nobody wants me, boo-hoo-hoo”.
As for lcm, I don’t think he planned anything. He just wasn’t that bright or cunning. I think he genuinely believed he was chosen by God, and that it was his responsibility to prove himself by finding new, exciting insights into the doctrine. He didn’t realize that 1) it wasn’t necessary and 2) he wasn’t capable. In my experience, truly self-involved people make dumb mistakes because they take an awful lot for granted. Craig and VP were no exception.
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Ham
Somehow, I think they conned each other. Maybe ole craigers looked like da man that VP wished he could be..
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Jim
Sometimes I think that Vic picked the Loy because he knew the minstry would implode. VPW thrived on power. Loy fed that thriving, but VPW must have known that Loy didn't pack the gear to keep the con going.
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Georgio Jessio
I have thought about this at length.
When Craig was picked , people were surpsised. But since it was 'revelation' people accepted it.
Now, since it's obvious that no revelation occured, what made Vic chose Craig?
The answer is, I have no idea and can't figure it out. The only thing I can think is Craig talked him into it, lobbied for the job, made the other candidates look bad and yes conned Vic.
There is no defense to treat vic the way Craig did. BUT I was around Vic at that time and the general 'backstage" perception was that Vic was losing it, senile, alzhimers, whatever. Even members of Vic's family would talk about how Vic was losing his mind.
That gave Craig more power and an excuse to write off his 'mentor'.
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Zshot
IMO,
LCM knew vpw's secrets and was able to blackmail him.
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Out There
Ponder this for a moment, maybe God wanted Loy a president knowing that it was soon time to call a halt to this madness known as the way
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Nottawayfer
I don't think any of it was a con job. I truly think they lcm believed in the MOGFAT crap, and he kissed VPs holy ring. LCM was just an overbearing arse who got out of control. And then he liked being the MOGFART himself so that others could kiss his holy ring.
The whole issue about blackmail doesn't make sense to me because the sexual escapades of both men (and the others) was an accepted dysfunctionality throughout twi. It just came with the territory of being a bigwig in the cult.
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My3Cents
I don't think he treated him that way. I think he thought he was taking the man's ideas and pursuing him. I think that vpw thought differently came as a genuine shock to him. Of course vpw probably never confronted him about it - just sat and stewed and mouthed off to Geer till he died. Then Geer thinking he was doing god's will expounded the POP.
I left shortly after that, but from what I've heard, most of LCM's concious deviations from VPW came after he died.
And I don't think craig was smart enough to con vpw.
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vickles
OMG
You guys make it sound like vpw and lcm were smart men. The only thing that vpw was good at was being a con and lcm learned from him.
Although lcm wasn't as good as vpw he did learn from the best con.
But in my opinion the only thing that vpw was smart on was the conning.
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Raf
That would imply the others did not know. But they did.
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George Aar
You've got to give the devil his due.
LCM, for all his faults, was great at working a crowd. He could get everybody jazzed up and thinking they were hearing from God Almighty - at least in his earlier years, before he started spitting and swearing so much.
Given that he was such a lapdog for VPW, and Wierwille, thinking he had some exclusive connection to Divine wisdom, went for a showman. Someone who was entirely style over substance, but then, wasn't that VPW as well?
I don't think there were a lot of hidden mechanisations behind the choice. It was just a stupid decision. Lots of those were made...
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George Aar
And I meant to add,
I'd long expected LCM to be VPW's successor.
It came as no surprise to me whatsoever.
VPW had picked out Craig's wife for him, gave him "front and center" at every big event, and heaped praises on him regularly. To me it was obvious that LoyBoy was being groomed for the part for many years prior...
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Jim
The first time I heard him work a crowd was ROA '74. I thought he was an insufferable prick. I even felt guilty for feeling that.
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George Aar
"The first time I heard him work a crowd was ROA '74. I thought he was an insufferable prick."
It took me several years to reach that level of in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. I eventually did, though.
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Georgio Jessio
"I don't think he treated him that way. I think he thought he was taking the man's ideas and pursuing him."
There was definetly a period towards the end of VPW's life that Craig and the Trustees treated VPW like an old man who was out to pasture. They ignored and even mocked him.
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excathedra
i don't think veepee could "handle" passing the pelt to ANYONE. had it been someone else, i think he still would have been crying
and when he cried to nutcase geer, they cried together ("you're the only one who understands me, chrissie") and geer thought something like "I should have been the MOG"
barf to all of 'em
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Tom Strange
george... he always has had a "problem" with the spitting... always
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GrouchoMarxJr
I have to agree with George...Vic chose the Okie because of his charisma...LCM could hold the crowds better than any of the other stooges. He built the thing on showmanship and he figured that he should keep it that way. Walter had the leadership abilities of Mr Rogers, Geer had the personality of a nazi prison guard, Ralph was too blue collar and unpretenious and JAL was just a "lite" version of LCM. Vic wanted somebody that could fill the big top. All style, no substance.
...And I also fully expected Martindale to be chosen. I would have been stunned had it been anyone else.
No doubt, Craig lobbied heavily for the job...but I think Vic had planned, since about 1978, to give him the job...Vic loved his brash mouth.
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ToadFriend
I agree with Uncle Hairy ... and I think VPW was quite surprised, even more than those of us in at the time, that Craig gave up the duties of the presidency to be a ballerina ... sheer ego.
TF
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Oakspear
When I got involved in TWI in Queens NY, there wren't very many Way Corps, you had to go several steps up the ladder to find one. We had nine or ten branches on Long Island with not one led by Way Corps. Never heard Martindale's name mentioned, and if I did I promptly forgot it. We tended to think that Dubofskey, Finnegan and Lynn were more likely candidates (2 NYers and our Limb Coordinator - made sense to us
;)-->)
Only when I went WOW in 1980, and had a 10th Corps guy as a family coordinator, did I start hearing about Craig. A few months into the WOW year the announcement was made.
Our Limb Coordinator at the time asked me shortly after the announcement what I thought of the "President-Elect". Of course I'm thinking of Ronald Reagan, who was just elected for the first time (nobody elected Martindale). I said something like, we'll just have to wait and see, I don't know if he can do the job
LC was quite shocked, until I explained myself
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JustThinking
Oak,
I showed up after this whole thing so have no first-hand info. However, Ole Craig conned so many other folks later that I think it had to be going on before 1985. Craig conning people, that is.
JT
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TheHighWay
I didn’t get into twi until Craig had already been chosen. The first time I heard him speak, I also thought he was an insufferable pr#ck. (well said George!) But I was new, and he was pres-elect, so I just kept that thought to myself.
I agree that VP ultimately chose Craiggers because of his showmanship. I’ve heard he really wanted (shoot! mind-blank… who used to teach corps night for him???) but he got talked into picking Craig because he was more charismatic than the others.
Either way, I don’t think it ever occurred to Vic that he was going to lose control. Every single candidate for the presidency was a toady of his… I really think he thought he was just going to continue pulling the strings from behind the curtain; that stepping down would just give him a little more play time, that’s all.
But I think that once Vic was no longer in the position where he could hold a club over their heads, Don and Howard and even Craig, automatically started pushing Vic off to the side. Whether this was conscious decision or an unconscious reaction is a mystery to me, but there is no doubt it happened. Throughout 84-85 I heard Don W. say snide things about his dad, and I definitely heard VP criticize LCM for his involvement in Athletes. And Vic’s last few teachings were all about “the leadership at HQ doesn’t have time for me, nobody wants me, boo-hoo-hoo”.
As for lcm, I don’t think he planned anything. He just wasn’t that bright or cunning. I think he genuinely believed he was chosen by God, and that it was his responsibility to prove himself by finding new, exciting insights into the doctrine. He didn’t realize that 1) it wasn’t necessary and 2) he wasn’t capable. In my experience, truly self-involved people make dumb mistakes because they take an awful lot for granted. Craig and VP were no exception.
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