Why are you all so upset about Gagne when Dice-K can't even get out of the fifth inning?
Well lotsa things. I dont like it when DiceK doesnt get out of the fifth but I can extend him a little grace. Dont forget that DiceK is a a MLB Rookie,,a rookie)... He doesnt speak the language, is learning a new culture, has his whole country watching him and is still learning American baseball. I was surprised that it is such a different game, but it is---Early in the yearwhen he hit a batter, he bowed to him, pitching inside is apparently bad form in Japan --he had to--and still is--learning that,
He has never pitched as long a season, or against as quality of batters as he has had to face all through this year. He is still learning how to pitch( much like Josh Beckett of last year).
He has had his flareups but he also had brilliant starts with little or no run support, he won 14 but he could have won 18-19. His stuff can be electric. IMO he is still a year or two away from being a great pitcher. There will be flashes of brilliance until then but everything he faces is basically for the first time....I cut him a little bit of slack.
Gagne on the other hand should know how to do this by now and was specifically brought in to do it NOW. For one inning.There have been too many hard fought games where 10-12-18 guys have fought to keep it close or ahead for 8 or 9 and he just seems to hand it away more often than not....
The arguments of him being a ninth inning pitcher I dont really buy all that much.
Is there really that much differenece between the 8th and 9th? As far as I can tell there are still 3 strikes to an out, 3 outs to an inning and the goal is to get guys out whether 8th or 9th.
His confidence is either shot to hell or he is tipping his pitches----whatever it is, he is positioned in a more crucial spot than a starter and the expectations are different.....IF he had been able to string together a series of good spots this year maybe it would be different , but he hasnt, almost anything in a high leverage situation as been at the best scary, and at the worse disastrous.
So Far ( there are still games left)---He is really only safe to pitch with either a huge lead or as a mopup guy--- Maybe he will have an electric save tonight, give his confidence a shot and redeem himself
I hope some of that ramble answered some of your question or at least gave you a little of my perspective....
Could you please send a slice of humble pie to that table over there? Yes. The table where Manny sits. . . .Oh, and could you please write with whipped cream over the top,
Who were those guys in the Indians uniforms last night? Beckett's a great pitcher, but it was as if our team wasn't even trying--I didn't see any fire in our guys' eyes.
I can only hope that Carmona comes on Saturday night like he did in the second game and that our hitters start hitting again.
C'mon guys, just one more game! Of course then they have to face the formidable Rockies, but one hurdle at a time.
Lindzee... you're being too hard on your guys! Beckett's stuff last night was just that electric... Beckett is among the best of the big game pitchers in MLB today (if not the best) and last night was a prime example. He can win a game by himself through pure talent and resolve. He was pitching last night on a level few have ever reached.
starman... re:DiceK, I hear what your saying, I get what your saying... my response then is 'he took the money, he knew what came with it'... (cold, I know, but then I don't have to be sympathetic! :) )
Game 6: Unless Schilling can reach deep down inside and pull up some of that magik for 6 or 7 innings and pitch like he used to, like Beckett just did... I think it's "church" for the BoSox.
Who was that Senator's guy that pitched a complete 16 inning game and struck out 21 batters?...Gawd,he musta thrown 200 pitches that game...When the Expos moved to Washington,I wish they would have used the Senators name instead of the Nationals...
Tom Cheney.
And I think the name was, shall we say, politically expedient. In DC the Senators were usually called the Nats for short anyway.
Beckett's stuff last night was just that electric... Beckett is among the best of the big game pitchers in MLB today (if not the best) and last night was a prime example. He can win a game by himself through pure talent and resolve. He was pitching last night on a level few have ever reached..
Agreed from another Indians fan. He should get the Cy Young even totally disregarding (as it is) the postseason.
The greatest one IMO was Carlton the year he won 27 for the last place Phillies.
I'm staying silent these days, as I've gotten into too much hot water with my mouth, but I have to say this about Torre, .
It wasn't the worst deal I ever heard that was offered to him, but I understand and respect his turning it down. If it was up to me, he'd be back.
For people who wish nothing but failure for the Yankees, then chime in about how 'classless' they are in his treatment is perplexing. If you want the team to fail so much, it really doesn't make much sense to want the best for the manager after they meet your expectations.
As much as I wanted him to be offered a better deal, he was still going to be the highest paid manager in baseball, with incentives through the roof. I see teams handle manager changes with less 'class' every year.
hiway, the NYY were the team of my youth, the team that I grew up loving, living and dying with... Number 7 is still the greatest player of all time in my mind and heart... there will never be one that can take his place because it was watching him that I grew to love this game more than any other...
so don't be perplexed... I wish them failure only because if they succeed they keep my home town team from winning it all, but then again I wish failure on all teams except the stRangers... I have to! :)
That I find the way they handled Torre 'classless' really has nothing to do with whether I want them to fail or succeed... after all he's given them (and I know they gave him a lot of money for his services) I figured they kind of owed it to him to do it in a way other than offering him a contract they knew he wouldn't accept... they could have gone to him and asked him how he wanted to "go out"... I think they at least owed him that.
He (Torre) has spent a lot of years 'biting his tongue' when he certainly would have been justified in trashing the NYY ownership but he didn't. I just feel that they owed him more... that's all.
I'm inclined to agree that a more fitting exit would have been better, but I also think what they offered wasn't all that bad.
Outside of Tommy lasorda, I'm hard pressed to think of many managerial changes that are 'pleasant'. The old adage that you're 'hired to be fired' is so true.
It still hurts though. Almost noone wanted to see Joe go, and I think it will hurt the Yankees more than they know. A ticker tape parade for Torre through the Bronx would seem appropriate to me.
What will be interesting to see is if all of the highly paid talent there, that is acting like 'if Joe goes, we go' will actually follow through with it...
Oh sure, their services, most of them, will be sought by other teams... but if the NYY aren't in the bidding for them, they're not going to get as much $$$.
On the other hand, I did like the stand they took with A-Rod telling him that if he opts out they won't be in the bidding... same effect there... less $$$ if the NYY aren't in the bidding... (personally, I'd love it if he opts out, that frees up more money for the stRangers to spend on our own team)
It would be SSDD, except that Torre was manager for 12 years ! That's rare for most teams and unheard of in the Steinbrenner era. For 12 years it wasn't SSDD. The Joe Torre era will go down as one of the most successful ever, with 12 straight playoff appearances and 4 World Series rings. That's more than a centuries worth for most teams.
It would be SSDD, except that Torre was manager for 12 years ! That's rare for most teams and unheard of in the Steinbrenner era. For 12 years it wasn't SSDD. The Joe Torre era will go down as one of the most successful ever, with 12 straight playoff appearances and 4 World Series rings. That's more than a centuries worth for most teams.
Indeed, hiway, you identified a distinction.
Steinbrenner's classless tactic was, for him, SSDD.
The end of the "Torre Era" in Yankeeville is certainly a big change.
Hey Tom Strange! I just learned tonight that your stRangers used to be the Washington Senators. I never knew that. Amazing what you can learn watching Jeopardy.
I wish they'd quit movin' everyone around, because it makes a girl's head spin. (Of course, I really wished that a few years ago when that stinker Art Modell kidnapped our Browns!!)
But back to my team. I think Cleveland can do this. I really really do. I hope Fausto Carmona has a really restful sleep tonight and is at the top of his game tomorrow night. He was amazing in game 2; let the deja vu begin!!!
Hey Tom Strange! I just learned tonight that your stRangers used to be the Washington Senators. I never knew that. Amazing what you can learn watching Jeopardy.
I wish they'd quit movin' everyone around, because it makes a girl's head spin. (Of course, I really wished that a few years ago when that stinker Art Modell kidnapped our Browns!!)
But back to my team. I think Cleveland can do this. I really really do. I hope Fausto Carmona has a really restful sleep tonight and is at the top of his game tomorrow night. He was amazing in game 2; let the deja vu begin!!!
What is "Baseball Franchise moves"? (or something like that). I didn't do as well in that category as I should have...
I think an Indians/Rockies WS would be a good one!
Thanks, Rocky. Yes, I think that would be a fantastic b'day present!
I went to game 5 of the 1995 WS on my 50th. We won! (Well, we won that game, anyway.) I'd be happy with a belated gift of winning the whole thing this year.
Thanks, Rocky. Yes, I think that would be a fantastic b'day present!
I went to game 5 of the 1995 WS on my 50th. We won! (Well, we won that game, anyway.) I'd be happy with a belated gift of winning the whole thing this year.
Indeed. I'm REALLY thankful that I got to see game 1, 2007 WS (a win, the game AND the series) live... I still have beany baby they gave away to everyone that went to that game!... I suppose I should photograph it and post the pic.
Not only were the Rangers once the Washington Senators, the Twins were also once the Washington Senators,
The original Washington Senators left for Minnesota sometime in the 50's (I don't recall what year). A new Washington Senator team was formed not long after , that really didn't last very long before moving to Texas.
I still think they should have named the Washington Nationals ,the Senators, to keep the tradition alive.
ummm I predict there will be a game7 in the ALCS. but I have been known to be wrong (once, and possibly twice, but that is in dispute).
All I can say, when the World Series needs to be delayed because of snow, just remember, the Rockies did all they could to finish things earlier. I am not happy for their wait. However, I know even if Boston or Cleveland had wrapped their series up earlier, the WS STILL would not have started until Wednesday.
Temp here today 72, tomorrow (Sunday) 40 with snow. Fortunately the cureent forecast for the first game in Denver is for daytime temp in the high 50s
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mstar1
This is a coupla days late...but....
Well lotsa things. I dont like it when DiceK doesnt get out of the fifth but I can extend him a little grace. Dont forget that DiceK is a a MLB Rookie,,a rookie)... He doesnt speak the language, is learning a new culture, has his whole country watching him and is still learning American baseball. I was surprised that it is such a different game, but it is---Early in the yearwhen he hit a batter, he bowed to him, pitching inside is apparently bad form in Japan --he had to--and still is--learning that,
He has never pitched as long a season, or against as quality of batters as he has had to face all through this year. He is still learning how to pitch( much like Josh Beckett of last year).
He has had his flareups but he also had brilliant starts with little or no run support, he won 14 but he could have won 18-19. His stuff can be electric. IMO he is still a year or two away from being a great pitcher. There will be flashes of brilliance until then but everything he faces is basically for the first time....I cut him a little bit of slack.
Gagne on the other hand should know how to do this by now and was specifically brought in to do it NOW. For one inning.There have been too many hard fought games where 10-12-18 guys have fought to keep it close or ahead for 8 or 9 and he just seems to hand it away more often than not....
The arguments of him being a ninth inning pitcher I dont really buy all that much.
Is there really that much differenece between the 8th and 9th? As far as I can tell there are still 3 strikes to an out, 3 outs to an inning and the goal is to get guys out whether 8th or 9th.
His confidence is either shot to hell or he is tipping his pitches----whatever it is, he is positioned in a more crucial spot than a starter and the expectations are different.....IF he had been able to string together a series of good spots this year maybe it would be different , but he hasnt, almost anything in a high leverage situation as been at the best scary, and at the worse disastrous.
So Far ( there are still games left)---He is really only safe to pitch with either a huge lead or as a mopup guy--- Maybe he will have an electric save tonight, give his confidence a shot and redeem himself
I hope some of that ramble answered some of your question or at least gave you a little of my perspective....
now ----
lets play some baseball!!!
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Bolshevik
waitress? . . . waitress? . . .
Could you please send a slice of humble pie to that table over there? Yes. The table where Manny sits. . . .Oh, and could you please write with whipped cream over the top,
"RUN!! RUN!!! RUN YOU SON OF . . . "
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Linda Z
Who were those guys in the Indians uniforms last night? Beckett's a great pitcher, but it was as if our team wasn't even trying--I didn't see any fire in our guys' eyes.
I can only hope that Carmona comes on Saturday night like he did in the second game and that our hitters start hitting again.
C'mon guys, just one more game! Of course then they have to face the formidable Rockies, but one hurdle at a time.
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Tom Strange
Lindzee... you're being too hard on your guys! Beckett's stuff last night was just that electric... Beckett is among the best of the big game pitchers in MLB today (if not the best) and last night was a prime example. He can win a game by himself through pure talent and resolve. He was pitching last night on a level few have ever reached.
starman... re:DiceK, I hear what your saying, I get what your saying... my response then is 'he took the money, he knew what came with it'... (cold, I know, but then I don't have to be sympathetic! :) )
Game 6: Unless Schilling can reach deep down inside and pull up some of that magik for 6 or 7 innings and pitch like he used to, like Beckett just did... I think it's "church" for the BoSox.
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Lifted Up
Tom Cheney.
And I think the name was, shall we say, politically expedient. In DC the Senators were usually called the Nats for short anyway.
Agreed from another Indians fan. He should get the Cy Young even totally disregarding (as it is) the postseason.
The greatest one IMO was Carlton the year he won 27 for the last place Phillies.
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Tom Strange
On another note... anyone besides me think that it was (another) classless act by the NYY in the way they "let Torre go"?
Of course, the line forms to the left of managers willing to take their money...
Oh... and I (for one) loved it when Beckett and Lofton faced off in the middle of the diamond last night.
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hiway29
I'm staying silent these days, as I've gotten into too much hot water with my mouth, but I have to say this about Torre, .
It wasn't the worst deal I ever heard that was offered to him, but I understand and respect his turning it down. If it was up to me, he'd be back.
For people who wish nothing but failure for the Yankees, then chime in about how 'classless' they are in his treatment is perplexing. If you want the team to fail so much, it really doesn't make much sense to want the best for the manager after they meet your expectations.
As much as I wanted him to be offered a better deal, he was still going to be the highest paid manager in baseball, with incentives through the roof. I see teams handle manager changes with less 'class' every year.
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Tom Strange
hiway, the NYY were the team of my youth, the team that I grew up loving, living and dying with... Number 7 is still the greatest player of all time in my mind and heart... there will never be one that can take his place because it was watching him that I grew to love this game more than any other...
so don't be perplexed... I wish them failure only because if they succeed they keep my home town team from winning it all, but then again I wish failure on all teams except the stRangers... I have to! :)
That I find the way they handled Torre 'classless' really has nothing to do with whether I want them to fail or succeed... after all he's given them (and I know they gave him a lot of money for his services) I figured they kind of owed it to him to do it in a way other than offering him a contract they knew he wouldn't accept... they could have gone to him and asked him how he wanted to "go out"... I think they at least owed him that.
He (Torre) has spent a lot of years 'biting his tongue' when he certainly would have been justified in trashing the NYY ownership but he didn't. I just feel that they owed him more... that's all.
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hiway29
I'm inclined to agree that a more fitting exit would have been better, but I also think what they offered wasn't all that bad.
Outside of Tommy lasorda, I'm hard pressed to think of many managerial changes that are 'pleasant'. The old adage that you're 'hired to be fired' is so true.
It still hurts though. Almost noone wanted to see Joe go, and I think it will hurt the Yankees more than they know. A ticker tape parade for Torre through the Bronx would seem appropriate to me.
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Rocky
S*S*D*D
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Tom Strange
What will be interesting to see is if all of the highly paid talent there, that is acting like 'if Joe goes, we go' will actually follow through with it...
Oh sure, their services, most of them, will be sought by other teams... but if the NYY aren't in the bidding for them, they're not going to get as much $$$.
On the other hand, I did like the stand they took with A-Rod telling him that if he opts out they won't be in the bidding... same effect there... less $$$ if the NYY aren't in the bidding... (personally, I'd love it if he opts out, that frees up more money for the stRangers to spend on our own team)
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hiway29
It would be SSDD, except that Torre was manager for 12 years ! That's rare for most teams and unheard of in the Steinbrenner era. For 12 years it wasn't SSDD. The Joe Torre era will go down as one of the most successful ever, with 12 straight playoff appearances and 4 World Series rings. That's more than a centuries worth for most teams.
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Tom Strange
that's more than most teams "lifetimes"...
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Rocky
Indeed, hiway, you identified a distinction.
Steinbrenner's classless tactic was, for him, SSDD.
The end of the "Torre Era" in Yankeeville is certainly a big change.
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Linda Z
Hey Tom Strange! I just learned tonight that your stRangers used to be the Washington Senators. I never knew that. Amazing what you can learn watching Jeopardy.
I wish they'd quit movin' everyone around, because it makes a girl's head spin. (Of course, I really wished that a few years ago when that stinker Art Modell kidnapped our Browns!!)
But back to my team. I think Cleveland can do this. I really really do. I hope Fausto Carmona has a really restful sleep tonight and is at the top of his game tomorrow night. He was amazing in game 2; let the deja vu begin!!!
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Rocky
What is "Baseball Franchise moves"? (or something like that). I didn't do as well in that category as I should have...
I think an Indians/Rockies WS would be a good one!
Wouldn't that be a wunnerful b'day present?!
Happy b'day LindaZ!
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Linda Z
Thanks, Rocky. Yes, I think that would be a fantastic b'day present!
I went to game 5 of the 1995 WS on my 50th. We won! (Well, we won that game, anyway.) I'd be happy with a belated gift of winning the whole thing this year.
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Rocky
Indeed. I'm REALLY thankful that I got to see game 1, 2007 WS (a win, the game AND the series) live... I still have beany baby they gave away to everyone that went to that game!... I suppose I should photograph it and post the pic.
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hiway29
Not only were the Rangers once the Washington Senators, the Twins were also once the Washington Senators,
The original Washington Senators left for Minnesota sometime in the 50's (I don't recall what year). A new Washington Senator team was formed not long after , that really didn't last very long before moving to Texas.
I still think they should have named the Washington Nationals ,the Senators, to keep the tradition alive.
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mstar1
Its a perfect day in New England today....Peak foliage, great weather and....I think that there is some game tonight!
(with all the fuss being made over a manager from some team
being fired -its hard to tell).
Good omens:
My computer crashed yesterday down to zilch as it did exactly before game 6 of the ALCS in 2004,
and Clevelanders seem to be Counting Their Chickens way too quickly.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!
Thats a mistake----
.....as if Curt Schilling needs anything else to motivate him..... they could be choking on those shirts by the end of the night....
GO GET EM CURT!!!!
...I'll be back when I can--either today
or during game 7!
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hiway29
Don't think the Socks haven't designed all that stuff already also. You think it appears like magic after teams win?
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Rocky
Nail biting anyone? 4-1 Sox on a grand salami by JD Drew.
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HAPe4me
ummm I predict there will be a game7 in the ALCS. but I have been known to be wrong (once, and possibly twice, but that is in dispute).
All I can say, when the World Series needs to be delayed because of snow, just remember, the Rockies did all they could to finish things earlier. I am not happy for their wait. However, I know even if Boston or Cleveland had wrapped their series up earlier, the WS STILL would not have started until Wednesday.
Temp here today 72, tomorrow (Sunday) 40 with snow. Fortunately the cureent forecast for the first game in Denver is for daytime temp in the high 50s
Boston has got to be more comfortable tonight.
~HAP
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Bolshevik
Thank you Curt. Again.
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