To be fair.....pfal had some GOOD stuff in it....BUT whole subjects, definitions and concepts were lifted from other spiritual men. If I were to quantify it....I'd say that about 75% of pfal was fairly good stuff. But things like "the law of believing" interjected very destructive concepts into students. And, the absent-christ concept was one of the worst of the indoctrinations.
By the way, I was born again as a teenager prior to my involvement with twi. Romans 10:9,10 was NOT something that twi had exclusive rights to. :)-->
IMO the corps program waxed worse and worse.....fashioning itself and embodied with IDOLATRY. Via manipulation, my eyes were systematically afixxed to "ministry leadership" and AWAY FROM MY SAVIOR, MY LORD. When veepee visited our campus, you'd swear that he was going to be riding on a white stallion.
I thank God everyday that He guided my steps back to His love and truth and way.
The fruit of twi is the OUTWARD MANIFESTATION of the quality of the tree, the way tree. Need I say more??
This put me in mind of TWI's "renewed mind" teaching. If we renewed our minds enough, we could be like Christ. If we believed enough, we could move mountains, if we did that, this would happen - we had the power to make God move for us! Exciting.... maybe.
The key was, it was all us - our power, our mind, our thoughts - you see the drift.
That's not ever how I took it. It says in 2 Cor. 4 that "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."
There are TWO things to glean from this verse: 1.) that the power IS OF GOD; and 2.) that WE HAVE IT.
Perhaps the renewed mind is NOT the key to power; but it's not idolatrous to say that it's the believer who utilizes the power.
Same old same old double standard: if VP is praised, then it's "NO NO NO, it wasn't VP, it was GOD!!!" But if VP is condemned, somehow it wasn't the devil, it was VP.
I dunno. Seems any self-serving, hell bound glory hound seems to beg for this kind of attention..
Why can't both statements be equally true?
With a lot of thought, I can't think of a whole heck of a lot that deserves praise..
Here we are discussing a thieving, lying, adulterous, scumbag- really bothers me how well the upper ups hid this crap for years.. and loy, he made vic look like a piker.. not as subtly, perhaps.
But to say "da devil made him do it" really whitewashes a lot of the issue, in my opinion. Releases the old poop from a lot of accountability. He CHOSE to do so.
Same old same old double standard: if VP is praised, then it's "NO NO NO, it wasn't VP, it was GOD!!!" But if VP is condemned, somehow it wasn't the devil, it was VP.
John, maybe it's because in retrospect, the fruit in Wierwille's life did not indicate anything godly. And why blame the devil when he obviously had free will.
Lol DOve, not at all....sorry bout my short term memory :-)
What bothers me John and Allan is why we would consider vp any different from Jim Jones, David koresch, the false prophets, the pharacees in the scriptures?
They all taught scripture...people believed them to be holy men of God......people were inspired and feel they were led to God through their ministries...
I am honestly asking ..... what sets vp apart from these other people who have hurt, stolen and destroyed in God`s name?
What makes vp`s sins any less contemptible than these people?
I think it's fair to say that Veepee was full of something other than God...
False prophet? Maybe you're giving him too much credit...flim flam man is more like it. I'm not sure that he had enough impact to even register on the "spritual scale"...the guy was self absorbed by his own ego and vices, anything he taught that WAS right, was because the people whose books he copied may have been right on some things...Wierwille might as well have been selling that hair spray for bald spots, for all the good he did...he was all flash and all talk...he was a freakin' salesman...anything that came out of his mouth should be likened to the noise that my dishwasher makes.
I really dont think that VP was as wacked as David Koresh or Jim Jones. VP, I do think, had some sense of equity and stability.
I also dont think Rascal you can define your Christianity in terms of wether the ministry was right or not. (Its a hell hole to say God cant use stuff like this for good in your life)
Did some not receive any good from it? Doubtless they didnt, but I really believe > God honors sincere intentions, aka honors people like Rascal.
You know their are a lot of wacked orgs that started out right (in the heart),,, and people went wacko.
Do I think VP was a false (whatever, teacher, apostle etc) ? I think this Rascal, alot of people said he plagerized others writings. Still some of the content of the plagerized stuff wasnt necessarily bad. The way got off bad when VP isolated himself, and made proclamations of teachings which others couldnt obtain. He did it to control people. This was evil of him. Take the good rascal and toss the evil.
I have just read through your thread( i think thats what you call it)On a false Prophet. Why don't a number of you go to the Word and see what it has to say about the subject,and then we don't have to guess. You all do know how to reasearch.... YES?
This Question is very complex. I have spent alot of thought on it. One night I spent the whole night, continplanting on Vick and everything I had been through with him. I tossed and turned all night, until, I finally driffted off for awaile. I maybe sleep for 2 hours at the most and all night long i just kept talking to the father, about who was Victor Whierwille? Suddenlty, I awoke from my rest, and I was breathing hard, like i Had just run a mile or 2 out on old wierwille road. I will never forget what happen. I had never sat up in bed more quickly, and I said to Judy. I was trying to catch my breathing, as I shoock her and I bluddered out of my mouth
Agreed, I think the answeres are in the scriptures...So far I have not found anything that excludes vpw from the false prophet catagory....and belle has posted quite a few that would describe the actions of vp as those of the false prophet/wolf in sheep`s skin persuasion.
I mean yeah he was better at hiding his sexual predation.....Koresch didn`t hide the fact that he s;ept with all of the women....
Jones ordered all of his folks dead...but then again weren`t we waiting for some gov`t take over...many of us willing to give our lives for the mog and to preserve the word.
I guess the paralell I am seeing is that these guys all taught scripture convincingly as ministers....they then used those sciptures to manipulate people into doing horrible things....
As wafers, we feel loathing towards these othere false prophets that harmed folks in God`s name....but when it comes to OUR ministry, we want to excuse our leaders as simply men who started out good but went bad.
Like I said, it makes a difference in what is required of me.
Even for vpw to be CONSIDERED a false prophet......is very telling.
Obviously.....vpw was SO FAR from blameless that he was outside the framework of an overseer, a bishop in the church [ I Timothy 3 ]. And, if the proper safeguards would have been in place.....church board members would have ousted his butt long before he damaged others with his perversions.
Heck, even the devil himself spoke truth....out of context....when it suited him.
Rascal, to answer your questions on page one, I liken it to the proverb of the wheat and the tares.
In this world, humans walk with people who are, well, "Tares." Tares are people who commit evil, hinder God's people, etc. His disciples said, let's get rid of them now. Christ said, don't worry, at the end times they will be weeded out.
that's why at the end, the tribulation and wrath are two different things. The wrath is the cleansing of earth and mankind of the tares who have been with us and worked for the wrong god. Many great "religious" leaders will be among them.
God does not ask us to forget what has been done or has happened to us. Forgiveness is for our benefit - not the other person's. When we walk in anger we walk in darkness. Forgiveness lifts the burden of our anger and allows us to walk in light.
I have always been disgusted with and condemn VP's actions, and it is our duty to let others know about the founder of the TWI cult, but let God judge him.
Mr. Doop, there is a great deal written about false prophets - woe unto them who lead God's people out of the way of truth and into the paths of the world. Who claim to speak for and about God, yet through subtlety, with God's Words, lead them away.
That's why I ask today, where are our pastors, churches, et al. leading their flocks today?
On an aside, I was reading some articles on the "Jesus Movement" of the 60s, early '70s - did you know Lonnie Frisbee? I find it interesting he too met with VP, yet did not go along with him, and the churches he helped start have grown and are still flourishing to this day (the Vineyard, and I forget the other one's name).
Now, you have left us hanging - you dreamed a dream and saw a vision...
Mr. Doop, please do finish. I know you went through a lot with him and would be very interested in hearing more.
We share scriptures, thoughts, studies and ask questions here. It's not "twig", but it does help in a lot of ways. There are those who do study on their own, others have been turned off of the Bible and some are just taking a break. :)--> All are welcome to post and share and all contribute something to the discussion.
For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.
And, in vee pee & craig's own words: the value of the counterfit is increased by its likeness to the original.
"deceivers and devil spirits will give you just enough truth to suck you in and then they hit you with the lies and they'll get away with the biggest lies they can"
They were telling us what they were doing. We just didn't listen.
Thankyou Sunesis, that makes all the sense in the world...I am still mad enough that I don`t feel quite ready to forgive them even yet.
Looking at it from your pov, is a little different however than some sanctimonious buffoon pointing their finger in my face saying I have to do it because they are my brothers ....we all sin and God requires it of me....(SCUSE ME??? I don`t remember EVER deliberatly hurting someone in God`s name for personal gain....I`ll thank you folks NOT to place me in the same catagory with these criminals .. tyvm)
Your scenario, I can consider. Let God sort the tares out...
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skyrider
To be fair.....pfal had some GOOD stuff in it....BUT whole subjects, definitions and concepts were lifted from other spiritual men. If I were to quantify it....I'd say that about 75% of pfal was fairly good stuff. But things like "the law of believing" interjected very destructive concepts into students. And, the absent-christ concept was one of the worst of the indoctrinations.
By the way, I was born again as a teenager prior to my involvement with twi. Romans 10:9,10 was NOT something that twi had exclusive rights to.
:)-->
IMO the corps program waxed worse and worse.....fashioning itself and embodied with IDOLATRY. Via manipulation, my eyes were systematically afixxed to "ministry leadership" and AWAY FROM MY SAVIOR, MY LORD. When veepee visited our campus, you'd swear that he was going to be riding on a white stallion.
I thank God everyday that He guided my steps back to His love and truth and way.
The fruit of twi is the OUTWARD MANIFESTATION of the quality of the tree, the way tree. Need I say more??
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Allan
Thats what I don't understand about some things said by some of you.. sometimes !!
Who said he had a 'healing ministry' either ?!
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Ham
Advanced class. Explanation about why da class was so detailed about 1. Discerning of Spirits.
and 2. Healing.
That's my best recollection of it- and its pretty darn close I think.
"The Way (inc.) is a healing ministry"
Who's stinking ministry was it? Who founded it?
Ah, the "little" things he said, and just left the conclusion up to our little imaginations..
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Ham
He did, INDIRECTLY, and by implication.
Really. He claimed the ministry he founded was, among other things, a healing ministry.
Might as well have said, "I have a healing ministry".
But no- not that bold, I guess..
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Ham
I guess that way, if he had to "bury" a few mistakes, he could squirm out of it. "I NEVER told you that I could.."
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GeorgeStGeorge
That's not ever how I took it. It says in 2 Cor. 4 that "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."
There are TWO things to glean from this verse: 1.) that the power IS OF GOD; and 2.) that WE HAVE IT.
Perhaps the renewed mind is NOT the key to power; but it's not idolatrous to say that it's the believer who utilizes the power.
George
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johniam
Same old same old double standard: if VP is praised, then it's "NO NO NO, it wasn't VP, it was GOD!!!" But if VP is condemned, somehow it wasn't the devil, it was VP.
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Ham
I dunno. Seems any self-serving, hell bound glory hound seems to beg for this kind of attention..
Why can't both statements be equally true?
With a lot of thought, I can't think of a whole heck of a lot that deserves praise..
Here we are discussing a thieving, lying, adulterous, scumbag- really bothers me how well the upper ups hid this crap for years.. and loy, he made vic look like a piker.. not as subtly, perhaps.
But to say "da devil made him do it" really whitewashes a lot of the issue, in my opinion. Releases the old poop from a lot of accountability. He CHOSE to do so.
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Oakspear
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Belle
He just wasn't the man he knew to be
That sounds like a personal problem to me. Not a devil problem.
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WhiteDove
Hey what am I chopped liver? LOL...
Quote to Rascal from Whitedove:from one extream thread
______________________________________________
By the way here is another to add to Galations ITimothy 3:1ff... Qualifications for a leader.
_______________________________________________
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rascal
Lol DOve, not at all....sorry bout my short term memory :-)
What bothers me John and Allan is why we would consider vp any different from Jim Jones, David koresch, the false prophets, the pharacees in the scriptures?
They all taught scripture...people believed them to be holy men of God......people were inspired and feel they were led to God through their ministries...
I am honestly asking ..... what sets vp apart from these other people who have hurt, stolen and destroyed in God`s name?
What makes vp`s sins any less contemptible than these people?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think it's fair to say that Veepee was full of something other than God...
False prophet? Maybe you're giving him too much credit...flim flam man is more like it. I'm not sure that he had enough impact to even register on the "spritual scale"...the guy was self absorbed by his own ego and vices, anything he taught that WAS right, was because the people whose books he copied may have been right on some things...Wierwille might as well have been selling that hair spray for bald spots, for all the good he did...he was all flash and all talk...he was a freakin' salesman...anything that came out of his mouth should be likened to the noise that my dishwasher makes.
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sky4it
Rascal:
I really dont think that VP was as wacked as David Koresh or Jim Jones. VP, I do think, had some sense of equity and stability.
I also dont think Rascal you can define your Christianity in terms of wether the ministry was right or not. (Its a hell hole to say God cant use stuff like this for good in your life)
Did some not receive any good from it? Doubtless they didnt, but I really believe > God honors sincere intentions, aka honors people like Rascal.
You know their are a lot of wacked orgs that started out right (in the heart),,, and people went wacko.
Do I think VP was a false (whatever, teacher, apostle etc) ? I think this Rascal, alot of people said he plagerized others writings. Still some of the content of the plagerized stuff wasnt necessarily bad. The way got off bad when VP isolated himself, and made proclamations of teachings which others couldnt obtain. He did it to control people. This was evil of him. Take the good rascal and toss the evil.
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jimdoop
Beloved
My heart and life go strongly out to you.
I have just read through your thread( i think thats what you call it)On a false Prophet. Why don't a number of you go to the Word and see what it has to say about the subject,and then we don't have to guess. You all do know how to reasearch.... YES?
This Question is very complex. I have spent alot of thought on it. One night I spent the whole night, continplanting on Vick and everything I had been through with him. I tossed and turned all night, until, I finally driffted off for awaile. I maybe sleep for 2 hours at the most and all night long i just kept talking to the father, about who was Victor Whierwille? Suddenlty, I awoke from my rest, and I was breathing hard, like i Had just run a mile or 2 out on old wierwille road. I will never forget what happen. I had never sat up in bed more quickly, and I said to Judy. I was trying to catch my breathing, as I shoock her and I bluddered out of my mouth
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rascal
What Jim ? ... WHAT did you say to judy???
Agreed, I think the answeres are in the scriptures...So far I have not found anything that excludes vpw from the false prophet catagory....and belle has posted quite a few that would describe the actions of vp as those of the false prophet/wolf in sheep`s skin persuasion.
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rascal
How so Sky4it?
In WHAT way was he not as wacked?
I mean yeah he was better at hiding his sexual predation.....Koresch didn`t hide the fact that he s;ept with all of the women....
Jones ordered all of his folks dead...but then again weren`t we waiting for some gov`t take over...many of us willing to give our lives for the mog and to preserve the word.
I guess the paralell I am seeing is that these guys all taught scripture convincingly as ministers....they then used those sciptures to manipulate people into doing horrible things....
As wafers, we feel loathing towards these othere false prophets that harmed folks in God`s name....but when it comes to OUR ministry, we want to excuse our leaders as simply men who started out good but went bad.
Like I said, it makes a difference in what is required of me.
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rascal
Could be you are right Groucho.... I guess tied up in my question are issues about how I feel about God.
It probably doesn`t make much difference flim flam man or false prophet....
It makes a difference in what my responsibilities are as a Christian.
If vp and lcm are simply brothers who have stumbled, my responsibilities OUGHT to be forgive them and even pray for lcm...pray for twi....shiver
If they were false prophets...my responsibility is entirely different....
I don`t then feel honor bound to love or forgive.
I don`t know if this makes any sense.
It makes a difference in whether or not we are vindictive back biting, tale bearers, or watchman identifying and warning the unwarey of evil.
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skyrider
Rascal,
I think I understand where you are coming from.
Even for vpw to be CONSIDERED a false prophet......is very telling.
Obviously.....vpw was SO FAR from blameless that he was outside the framework of an overseer, a bishop in the church [ I Timothy 3 ]. And, if the proper safeguards would have been in place.....church board members would have ousted his butt long before he damaged others with his perversions.
Heck, even the devil himself spoke truth....out of context....when it suited him.
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Sunesis
Rascal, to answer your questions on page one, I liken it to the proverb of the wheat and the tares.
In this world, humans walk with people who are, well, "Tares." Tares are people who commit evil, hinder God's people, etc. His disciples said, let's get rid of them now. Christ said, don't worry, at the end times they will be weeded out.
that's why at the end, the tribulation and wrath are two different things. The wrath is the cleansing of earth and mankind of the tares who have been with us and worked for the wrong god. Many great "religious" leaders will be among them.
God does not ask us to forget what has been done or has happened to us. Forgiveness is for our benefit - not the other person's. When we walk in anger we walk in darkness. Forgiveness lifts the burden of our anger and allows us to walk in light.
I have always been disgusted with and condemn VP's actions, and it is our duty to let others know about the founder of the TWI cult, but let God judge him.
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Sunesis
Mr. Doop, there is a great deal written about false prophets - woe unto them who lead God's people out of the way of truth and into the paths of the world. Who claim to speak for and about God, yet through subtlety, with God's Words, lead them away.
That's why I ask today, where are our pastors, churches, et al. leading their flocks today?
On an aside, I was reading some articles on the "Jesus Movement" of the 60s, early '70s - did you know Lonnie Frisbee? I find it interesting he too met with VP, yet did not go along with him, and the churches he helped start have grown and are still flourishing to this day (the Vineyard, and I forget the other one's name).
Now, you have left us hanging - you dreamed a dream and saw a vision...
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Belle
Mr. Doop, please do finish. I know you went through a lot with him and would be very interested in hearing more.
We share scriptures, thoughts, studies and ask questions here. It's not "twig", but it does help in a lot of ways. There are those who do study on their own, others have been turned off of the Bible and some are just taking a break.
:)--> All are welcome to post and share and all contribute something to the discussion.
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Belle
Matt 24:24
And, in vee pee & craig's own words: the value of the counterfit is increased by its likeness to the original.
"deceivers and devil spirits will give you just enough truth to suck you in and then they hit you with the lies and they'll get away with the biggest lies they can"
They were telling us what they were doing. We just didn't listen.
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rascal
Thankyou Sunesis, that makes all the sense in the world...I am still mad enough that I don`t feel quite ready to forgive them even yet.
Looking at it from your pov, is a little different however than some sanctimonious buffoon pointing their finger in my face saying I have to do it because they are my brothers ....we all sin and God requires it of me....(SCUSE ME??? I don`t remember EVER deliberatly hurting someone in God`s name for personal gain....I`ll thank you folks NOT to place me in the same catagory with these criminals .. tyvm)
Your scenario, I can consider. Let God sort the tares out...
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