Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe
Richard Byrum

Christian Fellowship and Research (CFNR)

Recommended Posts

I have some of John's books and received their teaching CD's for a while, likewise materials from S&TF, and CFFM plus music CD's from all 3 groups. Just plagarized Wierwille with new kinks in them, and the music isn't up to Way Productions of the 70's standards, much les CCM from the 1990's onward or classical hymnody :smilie_kool_aid:

Thanks for answering my nosy question. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never understood what Mary Ann Daly saw in him. She could have been a concert pianist. Rochelle their daughter seems nice but clueless as President of CF & R

I'm sure VP guided them to marry, simply because they were Corps grads...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I guess that one is a hard one to explain. "My father passed away and left me an inheritance. What was the inheritance? A cult. How thoughtful."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's see... Rochelle took over Hendrick's group, Tonia took over Shroyer's CFF, and Rosie took over VP's TWI.

Will all the splinters end up being run by women? If so, will they plagiarize less?

VPW said, "Women never tell the truth" (he wasn't kidding; see The Way Living in Love, p.199)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as counseling, I never saw any evidence of training in counseling. Some people were more versed in Scripture, more in tune with the teachings of Jesus, and more humble than others. If indeed one came into TWI with counseling training, it was quickly obviated by a need to convince that person that s/he didn't know squat compared to the teachings of TWI.

When we lived in the south, we knew a lovely, smart woman who was working on her master's in psychology, got a Ph.D. in child psychology and was a brilliant, loving concerned person. She went into the WC, married a WC grad, and the last I knew she was working on The Way Magazine. What a stinking waste of talent and education! I haven't heard from her or about her for decades but I hope and pray she's out of that mess and helping adolescent kids somewhere.

Counseling: Your ADHD son doesn't need medications. He needs frequent, prolonged, painful beatings until he learns to submit or die. Even had one (spouse corps) WC grad advise me we should end his life if he didn't straighten up.

JohnIam, thank God you are with people who love and understand.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Counseling: Your ADHD son doesn't need medications. He needs frequent, prolonged, painful beatings until he learns to submit or die. Even had one (spouse corps) WC grad advise me we should end his life if he didn't straighten up.

wg, i can't even......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The closest thing I ever saw to actual training in counseling was to recommend

Jay Adams' book, "Competent to Counsel."

It seemed to recommend against formal training in counseling, and its approach

was called "nouthetic". According to the book, it meant confronting people having

incidents and getting them to stop faking it.

I'm sure that would be of use with SOME people, but with others, that would be

horribly bad. All those with chemical imbalances don't need to be confronted,

they need a miraculous healing or chemicals to balance coupled with some

actual counseling.

Hmm...that must be where vpw got his idea, when that guy in the middle of a

meeting became incoherent and so on. vpw CONFRONTED HIM on it- when it was

obviously not INTENDED but something BIOLOGICAL to anyone with an ounce of

skill in Biology, medicine, or Psychology- and sent the guy home. A WEEK later,

he arrived home. We never heard of the ordeal he went through, suffering from

an obvious, acute incident of an undiagnosed psychiatric problem.

Was it a critical dietary deficiency? Chemical imbalance in the brain? A stroke?

Could he have dropped dead on the bus? Why did it take a whole week of bus to

bus before he got home? vpw never gave him a second thought, either- he told

lcm to stop worrying.

vpw set the standard for not caring, for incompetent preparation and for

confrontational "counseling."

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting.. this is more callous than the treatment of Chinese workers..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

One can argue the relevance.. suicide rate of population of workers vs. suicide rate in the whole stinking country.. etc., etc.

but the Chinese cared enough to put up a few nets in the stairwells so one could not jump to their death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The closest thing I ever saw to actual training in counseling was to recommend

Jay Adams' book, "Competent to Counsel."

It seemed to recommend against formal training in counseling, and its approach

was called "nouthetic". According to the book, it meant confronting people having

incidents and getting them to stop faking it.

I'm sure that would be of use with SOME people, but with others, that would be

horribly bad. All those with chemical imbalances don't need to be confronted,

they need a miraculous healing or chemicals to balance coupled with some

actual counseling.

Hmm...that must be where vpw got his idea, when that guy in the middle of a

meeting became incoherent and so on. vpw CONFRONTED HIM on it- when it was

obviously not INTENDED but something BIOLOGICAL to anyone with an ounce of

skill in Biology, medicine, or Psychology- and sent the guy home. A WEEK later,

he arrived home. We never heard of the ordeal he went through, suffering from

an obvious, acute incident of an undiagnosed psychiatric problem.

Was it a critical dietary deficiency? Chemical imbalance in the brain? A stroke?

Could he have dropped dead on the bus? Why did it take a whole week of bus to

bus before he got home? vpw never gave him a second thought, either- he told

lcm to stop worrying.

vpw set the standard for not caring, for incompetent preparation and for

confrontational "counseling."

a very personal and subjective interpretation of this event..

I think they guy witnessed some moggish nonsense.. wouldn't take the bribe, and ended up after being slipped a Micky.. and woke up three or four states away ..

but I could be very wrong. It's just an impression.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This MIGHT explain why herr Vicster wasn't exactly concerned.. just saying. Certainly not verifiable.. but the impression of this is still stays in my head..

why else would someone perfectly arranged and logical, would suddenly babble incoherently.. asides the effect of having a stroke, or some such..

It's just a thought.. a persistent impression. Take it as you wish..

If you don't mind me saying.. I'll say more, only if you wish.

Edited by Ham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Hmm...that must be where vpw got his idea, when that guy in the middle of a

meeting became incoherent and so on. vpw CONFRONTED HIM on it- when it was

obviously not INTENDED but something BIOLOGICAL to anyone with an ounce of

skill in Biology, medicine, or Psychology- and sent the guy home. A WEEK later,

he arrived home. We never heard of the ordeal he went through, suffering from

an obvious, acute incident of an undiagnosed psychiatric problem.

Was it a critical dietary deficiency? Chemical imbalance in the brain? A stroke?

Could he have dropped dead on the bus? Why did it take a whole week of bus to

bus before he got home? vpw never gave him a second thought, either- he told

lcm to stop worrying.

I don't recall where that thread is about the guy on the bus. I remember reading it, but there's too many unfilled blanks to be conclusive about VPs handling of it.

First of all, if it took a week for the guy to get to his destination, then he must have eaten SOMETHING. He must have been coherent enough to buy and eat food regularly, otherwise another passenger would have noticed him and informed the bus driver and authorities would have been called.

Secondly, a bus ticket is more flexible than an airline ticket because there are many stops. If I would, say, buy a bus ticket from St. Louis to Los Angeles, I could go to Denver and decide to interrupt the trip by staying in Denver for a few days and then continue the trip to LA later. I've done that before with different cities. How do we know that guy didn't do something like that? Maybe he just didn't want to be on a bus 24/7 for the whole trip and took a day or 2 off just to clear his head.

I want to address the whole counselling/devil spirits thing: Most devil spirit footage in scripture is in the gospels. We assume that when Jesus cast them out, then they must have actually been there. Sometimes he counselled people (the man crying in the tombs) and other times he did not. His disciples had similar success, though no details are given. TWI was able to portray themself as more like the 1st century church in many things, but not this.

The people I currently fellowship with are acutely aware that just because someone has a chemical imbalance doesn't mean they're possessed. Regarding my children's autism, yes it is possible something like that could be caused by a devil spirit, OR it could be like being born without a limb. Even John Hendricks used to say that some things like that are "the way the genetic cookie crumbles". There was a pitcher for the California Angels named Jim Abbott who was born without a hand. He would have his glove held against his chest by the arm that had no hand, then, after pitching the ball, would quickly transfer the glove to his pitching hand, field the ball (if necessary), and switch hands again and throw the ball to 1st base, or wherever needed. He could do this fast enough to succeed at the major league level. One year he won 18 games AND he once pitched a no hitter. There was no devil spirit that directly caused him to be born with one hand missing, he just had to work harder to accomodate the handicap. I tend to think the same for my sons.

My elder son is now 22. He got an attendance diploma from HS in 2010 when he was 19. We withheld his regular diploma so he could still receive services from the school system. He spent the last 2 years going to a work site as he had for half days in HS. His jobs included mostly kitchen work, but also factory work. His organizational skills are very good. At one factory he worked in the shipping dept. where he put products and labels on skids which were to be shipped out. His HS supervisor said once they were making pizzas and he thought (did not speak) that he would need more sauce soon. Not even a minute later, my son, without any prompting, brought the sauce to him. He was just that focussed on not only his work, but the team overall. My wife and I did not teach him that; he does that on his own initiative. He now works at the rehab center at Barnes Jewish Hospital complex. He works in the kitchen, the linens dept., and some other department. I am very proud of him. Yeah. Devil spirits. Right. TWI just doesn't get this. Their credibility is like unto Barney Fife in these matters. Sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Hmm...that must be where vpw got his idea, when that guy in the middle of a

meeting became incoherent and so on. vpw CONFRONTED HIM on it- when it was

obviously not INTENDED but something BIOLOGICAL to anyone with an ounce of

skill in Biology, medicine, or Psychology- and sent the guy home. A WEEK later,

he arrived home. We never heard of the ordeal he went through, suffering from

an obvious, acute incident of an undiagnosed psychiatric problem.

Was it a critical dietary deficiency? Chemical imbalance in the brain? A stroke?

Could he have dropped dead on the bus? Why did it take a whole week of bus to

bus before he got home? vpw never gave him a second thought, either- he told

lcm to stop worrying.

I don't recall where that thread is about the guy on the bus. I remember reading it, but there's too many unfilled blanks to be conclusive about VPs handling of it.

We'll never have enough to be CONCLUSIVE, but we know a lot about what happened.

lcm HIMSELF gave the account, when he was applauding vpw and lauding him to the

skies in "vp and me."

We had the account in the thread "vp and me in wonderland."

""Dr and LCM always fought for people to stay in the Corps.

There was an incident of a guy in the Corps who all of a sudden went

"gooney-bird". He started to babble and not make sense. LCM worked hard

with the guy to help him but he was incoherent. Dr, when he met him,

confronted him by asking- 'Son, how come you're letting your mind get

all scrambled?' The guy answered unintelligibly and Dr told him that it would

be best for him just to pack his bags and go home. The guy understood

that. He left.

LCM spent many hours and many long distance phone calls trying to make

sure the guy had gotten home from his bus ride home safely. Not being

able to verify his location, he was concerned. Dr told him to move on.

There's nothing you can do, he'll show up at home soon enough. A week

later the guy did show up at home."

Mind you,

lcm had a BA in Psychology, and SHOULD have been able to give

some USEFUL description here, but he did not.

lcm ATTEMPTED to do SOMETHING with the guy.

vpw-whose only background in Psychology was POSSIBLY Jay Adams' book

"Competent to Counsel" (recommended to the corps and advocating

CONFRONTING people)- CONFONTED a man with an obvious physical problem.

He needed a medical evaluation. He could have had a stroke, a critical

vitamin deficiency, or any of a number of other things.

vpw's answer? "Pack your bags and go home."

lcm-like any normal person- worried that he'd get home safely.

After all, it was a frighteningly CALLOUS and USELESS thing to take

him, get NO medical help, NO medical EVALUATION, then dump him on a

series of buses to get home EVENTUALLY.

First of all, if it took a week for the guy to get to his destination, then he must have eaten SOMETHING. He must have been coherent enough to buy and eat food regularly, otherwise another passenger would have noticed him and informed the bus driver and authorities would have been called.

Secondly, a bus ticket is more flexible than an airline ticket because there are many stops. If I would, say, buy a bus ticket from St. Louis to Los Angeles, I could go to Denver and decide to interrupt the trip by staying in Denver for a few days and then continue the trip to LA later. I've done that before with different cities. How do we know that guy didn't do something like that? Maybe he just didn't want to be on a bus 24/7 for the whole trip and took a day or 2 off just to clear his head.

But we have no way of knowing anything but that he got home, days later.

We don't know the authorities WEREN'T called.

We don't know another passenger didn't take pity on him and talk him through

stops for food and rest for a day or something.

We know he was able to pack, more or less. We don't know what the problem was or

if he was going to drop dead on the bus. (There was no medical evaluation.

Even a school has a nurse on hand to do an evaluation and determine if a hospital

is needed. A paramedic would have been something. But there was no preparation

at the "facility" of any kind.)

We know he was incoherent. We do not know why or if it was a symptom of something

more dangerous. vpw just kicked him off-grounds and said to forget about him.

This was a pretty standard policy with twi. One ex-WOW said they had a horrible

incident on the field, and was traumatized. They were put on a bus and told to

go home. They took several days to get home as well because they were traumatized

and didn't have the clarity of mind to get home safely. They got lost at an early

stop and had a SECOND traumatic experience in trying to get home while being

mentally incapable.

So,

MAYBE the guy was suddenly and mysteriously all better and made a tour of his

rip home.

MAYBE the guy collapsed on a bus and local help was gotten for him.

Either outcome is possible because he was put on a bus right after an acute

psychiatric incident with no medical evaluation.

Any place would be legally liable for placing someone in danger like that.

They had a fiduciary responsibility toward the students in their program.

But vpw saw all the responsibility go ONE WAY-FROM the students.

He never saw all the things HE OWED them-which is why he never offered them.

I want to address the whole counselling/devil spirits thing: Most devil spirit footage in scripture is in the gospels. We assume that when Jesus cast them out, then they must have actually been there. Sometimes he counselled people (the man crying in the tombs) and other times he did not. His disciples had similar success, though no details are given. TWI was able to portray themself as more like the 1st century church in many things, but not this.

The people I currently fellowship with are acutely aware that just because someone has a chemical imbalance doesn't mean they're possessed. Regarding my children's autism, yes it is possible something like that could be caused by a devil spirit, OR it could be like being born without a limb. Even John Hendricks used to say that some things like that are "the way the genetic cookie crumbles". There was a pitcher for the California Angels named Jim Abbott who was born without a hand. He would have his glove held against his chest by the arm that had no hand, then, after pitching the ball, would quickly transfer the glove to his pitching hand, field the ball (if necessary), and switch hands again and throw the ball to 1st base, or wherever needed. He could do this fast enough to succeed at the major league level. One year he won 18 games AND he once pitched a no hitter. There was no devil spirit that directly caused him to be born with one hand missing, he just had to work harder to accomodate the handicap. I tend to think the same for my sons.

My elder son is now 22. He got an attendance diploma from HS in 2010 when he was 19. We withheld his regular diploma so he could still receive services from the school system. He spent the last 2 years going to a work site as he had for half days in HS. His jobs included mostly kitchen work, but also factory work. His organizational skills are very good. At one factory he worked in the shipping dept. where he put products and labels on skids which were to be shipped out. His HS supervisor said once they were making pizzas and he thought (did not speak) that he would need more sauce soon. Not even a minute later, my son, without any prompting, brought the sauce to him. He was just that focussed on not only his work, but the team overall. My wife and I did not teach him that; he does that on his own initiative. He now works at the rehab center at Barnes Jewish Hospital complex. He works in the kitchen, the linens dept., and some other department. I am very proud of him. Yeah. Devil spirits. Right. TWI just doesn't get this. Their credibility is like unto Barney Fife in these matters. Sad.

I believe devils can cause problems, but that doesn't mean medical attention is

dismissed. Some people believe devils can exploit existing medical conditions and

in that case, getting proper medical care would thwart them.

But in twi, it was simple-and LAZY and UNEDUCATED- to blame the supernatural for

every intangible problem. This added the convenience of giving them the excuse

of not offering tangible solutions.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Secondly, a bus ticket is more flexible than an airline ticket because there are many stops. If I would, say, buy a bus ticket from St. Louis to Los Angeles, I could go to Denver and decide to interrupt the trip by staying in Denver for a few days and then continue the trip to LA later. I've done that before with different cities. How do we know that guy didn't do something like that? Maybe he just didn't want to be on a bus 24/7 for the whole trip and took a day or 2 off just to clear his head.

I know when it was myself that left TWI HQ for good (I kicked myself out after talking with the head honchos to give my 2 cents), I drifted around for 2 weeks visiting friends and family around the country, since I knew I wouldn't get a vacation like that anytime soon and I needed to rest and relax before jumping back into life. And I was correct, since the day I arrived to my final resting place, I had a pretty good job offer. And life has been rolling along ever since... Wish I could take a good long vacation again, but alas wife/kids.. It's just getting more busy by the day..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

I believe devils can cause problems, but that doesn't mean medical attention is

dismissed. Some people believe devils can exploit existing medical conditions and

in that case, getting proper medical care would thwart them.

I totally agree with this. I'll be interested in seeing what the psych history is for this guy in CT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/15/2006 at 0:07 AM, doojable said:

My good friend is a member of that fellowship. I know that John did not adhere strictly to all that DR Weirwille taught. He reworked things and greatly encouraged people to go to the Word and figure things out on their own. My friend has been a member of that fellowship for at least 11 years and I believe that the fellowship is sweet.

Bottom line - take things slow and be ready to speak up if you dont' get or trust something. I don't see anything wrong with getting involved with any group as long as you are willing to not turn your brain off.

Doo, good post!!  If he wants to fellowship with this group of people, fine.  But, I pray that he uses his brain, and Common Sense not to get sucked into a cult. Or something similar to one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2012 at 4:43 PM, waysider said:

I just love these posts from people who weren't there but are SURE they know what happened.

How refreshing. :rolleyes:

Way, I was in TWI, for ten years, and didn't know all the S--t that went down!!  In the Twigs I attended, life in Way World was great; no one told me Jack until I left!!  :asdf:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/3/2012 at 6:06 PM, modcat5 said:

Welcome to Greasespot, LoveOneAnother. Your right to express your views is welcome here. There will be responses. There will be challenges. But we hope you stick around and enjoy the menu.

Joining any Internet forum involves some growth as you learn the ropes of how this place works and the rest of us learn the ropes of how you work. We hope and trust it will be a constructive experience for everyone.

Enjoy.

Or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/4/2012 at 11:16 AM, chockfull said:

Someone talking badly about autistic kids makes it even worse in my book.

You are 100% correct that TWI never had the capacity to handle this kind of thing. Actually I could broaden that and say that TWI never had the capacity or training of HFC's to handle ANYTHING out of the ordinary like this. And neither did the Way Corps training. So as a result, with the emphasis on conformity and obedience, the weak in leadership attack that which doesn't conform. And act worse than an unbeliever.

Even the world has a clue in these categories, and provides special needs attention in schools. It may not be perfect, but it's better than TWI.

I feel sorry you had to go through that johniam and family.

Chock, no one should have to go through that Bulls--t anywhere!!  I used to attend a Methodist Church, and some of the members were Mentally Handicapped in various ways; they were treated the same as everyone else.  I think all of us have some sort of disability in some way; thus all of us should be treated like God's Kids!!  I don't care what your problem/disability is; all of us want to be treated with respect, and dignity!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/4/2012 at 0:02 PM, waysider said:

The Way dispensed "counseling" as freely as some dispense trick-or-treat candy on Halloween. What training did they offer their leaders that would qualify them to provide this service? If anyone had credentials, it would have to be because they brought them with them when they entered the organization. It's not likely many leaders got credentials from an outside source during their involvement, as The Way frowned heavily on that sort of thing. Wierwille set the stage for denigrating secular therapies and treatments early in the foundational class on Power For Abundant Living, when he belittled the value of "world wisdom".

Way, you are so right honey; TWI was not qualified in any way to give counseling, or advice!!  Rarely did I seek advice from anyone from TWI. I believe very strongly that if you need professional help, get it. I am a Disabled Veteran, and I receive excellent Professional help from the DCVAMC.  I do what I can, and than God does His part.  God and I do well together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2012 at 1:13 AM, johnj said:

You can find an article that provides a good overview of CRF on www.abouttheway.org Click on "Splinter groups" on the home page, then click on the link to the Hendricks article

Like VPW, CRF teaches the “law of giving and receiving.” This and other spiritual “laws,” work for anyone who practices them, regardless of their religion (or atheism), morality (or immorality). The law of giving asserts that anyone who gives will receive back. Immutable “laws” that work for any human being are rooted in the New Thought movement of a century ago, not the Bible. This is related to teachings on prosperity.

This is all very convenient for both TWI and CRF because... they get the money...

many people noticed over the years that both VP and JH really, really liked it.

Every church I have ever been a part of produced financial reports monthly for all the officers (usually 6-10 people). They also published year to date reports which were given to everyone who attended voters meetings, which were held anywhere from 2 to 12 times a year. Everyone was invited to voters meetings, including people who weren't members of the church. Furthermore, offerings were counted and deposited by at least two, unrelated people. None of these were the treasurer, who wrote the checks. By separating the income and the outgo sides of finances, it helps prevent people skimming money for selfish purposes. TWI and CRF do not follow these honest practices. WHY NOT?

John, JH ran my AC in July of 1985, in Rome City.  You are right; JH was very concerned about money; I have no idea why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2012 at 10:18 AM, skyrider said:

Seems like many of wierwille's former "leaders" now have a psalm....a doctrine....and their OWN class.

Just like wierwille, tweak another's work and research a bit......and then, open the doors for business.

How many guys have "taken their marbles" and moved to another game across the street? :rolleyes:

Sky, I would not attend any fellowship modeled after PFAL!!!  Not me!!  If others want to, good for them. I think JH might have been more interested in money, than he was in God.  Just my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2012 at 10:16 PM, OperaBuff said:

i want POWER which i will use FOR giving myself an ABUNDANT LIVING. oh, and i want lots of free sex on the side. amen. hey, look at it snow!

OB, and I want it now, and I want it for free!!!!  What a Snow Job!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2012 at 10:16 PM, OperaBuff said:

i want POWER which i will use FOR giving myself an ABUNDANT LIVING. oh, and i want lots of free sex on the side. amen. hey, look at it snow!

OB, if you hear someone laughing, it will be me!!  Great post!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2012 at 0:43 AM, Thomas Loy Bumgarner said:

I never understood what Mary Ann Daly saw in him. She could have been a concert pianist. Rochelle their daughter seems nice but clueless as President of CF & R

Thomas, perhaps she is. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...