I dunno, I always thought it was one of his made-up stow-reees, simply for purposes of illustration. I wasn't under the impression it was a real group.
Although, with the rise of the fringe religious groups in the '60s and '70s, it didn't seem completely implausible.
Any "innies" want to comment on this?
(I know you were waiting for that. And I hate to make people wait. )
[16:28:21 <|aric|> We abhor the teachings of the Church of the Navelites who believe that Adam and Eve had belly buttons because of the belief that God made them fully human and full humans have belly buttons.
This is one of the first questions that I intend to ask the Lord when I get to Heaven. My first question, believe it or not, will be, "Did Adam and Eve have a belly button?" I don’t know why, but that has bothered me for years. There was a church in California that actually split over that question. One group said, "Yes, they did because they would not be complete without a belly button." The other group said, "No, they didn’t because they were never born. That is where the umbilical corn connects before birth." They actually split the church over that argument. One group went across town and started a new church. I saw the article in the paper. I couldn’t believe it. The name of the church was, "The Church of the Navelites." Only in California!
I don't know if it is an urban legend or not, but if it is it wasn't Vic's invention. I have heard a couple of people over the years who have had no connection whatsoever with TWI who had heard about these alleged Navelites.
I don't know if it is an urban legend or not, but if it is it wasn't Vic's invention. I have heard a couple of people over the years who have had no connection whatsoever with TWI who had heard about these alleged Navelites.
Part of the definition of an urban legend is a story that always happens to someone else, no one claims to have seen it, or experienced it, or seen documentation. It's always "I talked to soemone who..." or 'I know someone who..." - never first person.
I don’t know whether or not this is a true story, but it was told to me as true! It seems there was a church that decided to have a mural painted in their nursery area. Now when you are thinking about Biblical scenes for church nurseries, everyone is going to naturally gravitate to one of two stories: Adam and Eve in the garden or Noah loading the ark. This is because both of these stories can be depicted with lots of colors and lots of animals. This particular church decided upon Adam and Eve. An artist was hired and she painted a beautiful scene with lush tropical plants, colorful and whimsical animals of every sort and Adam and Eve discretely covered right there in the middle of the garden. There was only one problem. Adam and Eve’s tummies were showing in the picture. Some people objected – not because of the bare midriffs, but because the artist placed a little dot – a belly button – on Adam and on Eve. These people argued that Adam and Eve would not have had belly buttons – they were created out of dust. They wouldn’t have had umbilical cords. Others in the church argued back – who cares? And anyway, if Adam and Eve were human just like we are, they would have had belly buttons. Neither side could let it go and it turned into a real church fight. Some people announced that if the belly buttons were not painted out – they would leave the church. Others announced that if the belly buttons were painted out – they would leave the church. Both sides became progressively abusive toward one another. The issue of the belly buttons became the sole issue in the church. Finally one group made good on their promise and left the church en masse to form another church.
I've seen enough folks who were unable to say "it doesn't matter" to think that this story is quite probable, in fact.
An urban legend is always believable on some level. IMHO this story was floating a round even before PFAL, and Wierwille latched onto it for teaching purposes.
An urban legend is always believable on some level. IMHO this story was floating a round even before PFAL, and Wierwille latched onto it for teaching purposes.
Exactly.
One thing that's sort of odd, though, is that I don't see this particular legend listed on snopes or other urband legend debunking sites. It's floating around enough that I'd have thought it would have been listed already.
When I was in Fargo, North Dakota on my interim year, my Tenth Corps sistah and I met an old woman who told us that she was from Ohio and that she had been a member of the Ist Church Of The Navelites. My sistah and I were amazed, and told her that we had heard of that church in a Bible class. The woman was very adamant about the fact that Adam had to have had a naval. She talked of the major dissension and how people had been so hurt over it but that God made Adam and Eve just the way we are made today.
After we left her, we marveled at it because both of us had actually wondered whether or not VPW used that as a teaching tool kind of an anecdote that didn't necessarily have to be true simply to make a point. But there it sat, just like a duck. So, there is that info, for whatever it is worth...
When I was in Fargo, North Dakota on my interim year, my Tenth Corps sistah and I met an old woman who told us that she was from Ohio and that she had been a member of the Ist Church Of The Navelites. My sistah and I were amazed, and told her that we had heard of that church in a Bible class. The woman was very adamant about the fact that Adam had to have had a naval. She talked of the major dissension and how people had been so hurt over it but that God made Adam and Eve just the way we are made today.
Get out!
She said this?
And she was serious and everything-she wasn't messing with you??
I always wanted to know if Adam had nipples. A doctor told me that during early development in the womb a fetus could go either way, male or female, and that is why we both have nipples. That means Adam could have been a female? But I found this - http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_093.html
Over the years I have probably worked on 30 or 40 stained glass windows that had Adam in them, during the initial stages I always bring it up to the priest/pastor/committee to see if it is an issue or not, so far I have never met anyone in any denomination to who it is an issue or for the most part even thought of it before, in fact most look at me like I have 10 heads for even bringing it up
A year or so before I got in TWI I found a book in my mom's house. Can't remember the name of the book but it was like that newspaper column "News of the Weird". Nothing in there about Navelites, but there was one story about a town called Zion, Illinois, which was basically run by a religious sect. These people supposedly believed that the earth was flat and the sun was 30 miles from the earth and that you could get arrested for swearing on Sunday and that as recently as 1948 the Illinois Highway Patrol would actually warn motorists about this town. I've never heard anything about this town outside of that book.
OK, that said, I think it's possible that VPW heard of the Navelites from a similar source and didn't care if it was true or not just because it made such a nice example of the point he was trying to make. But anything's possible.
As far as Adam and Eve having navels or not, it makes more sense to me that they DID.
This thread reminds me of how many posters hung their hats on the supposed weather research done to “prove” that no snow fell on that fateful day in October 1942. Lifted Up came on board and quietly testified to seeing TWO such heavy and extremely local rogue snow storms. Few paid any attention.
This thread also reminds me of how some posters here were looking for more dirt on VPW (a full time pre-occupation for some) and started cranking up a rumor machine that he was racist and hated Blacks.
Then HCW came in and very forcefully trounced it to pieces with his firsthand experiences with Dr and how he didn’t have a shred of that in him. The rumor machine building quietly stopped and they went off looking for dirt in some other places. After HCW is long gone from here, I wonder how many others will try and reinvent that same racism rumor.
HCW also did great service in reporting how he and Mrs. Wierwille looked at India photos that substantiated Dr’s PFAL accounts of the healing at the train station. Many posters seeking dirt and lies were disappointed.
And some posters here think that they are objective researchers! I gotta laugh.
***
For the record, here’s how Dr put the navel incident in the PFAL book on page 125:
“An example of people trying to stand approved of God is a sadly ridiculous commentary on so-called Christians. Many years ago when I was doing research in the archives of the University of Chicago Divinity School, I came across a clipping from a newspaper on a denomination which had two factions. The cause of the rift was the question whether or not God origi¬nally had created Adam and Eve with or without navels. Incredible! One group said that Adam and Eve did not have navels while the other faction believed that God had given both Adam and Eve navels. The one group built a new church just across the street from the old one and called their new denomination the First Church of the Navelites. Christians bring disapproval to themselves when they become side- tracked on such irrelevant matters.”
So the only fact to research here is whether that newspaper clipping ever existed, not the actual group or church. Still, there’s testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels, as Dr accurately reported. That’s the point Dr was making.
You know, for a moment, I thought you were actually
going to add to a discussion without your OWN agenda.
I don't know where my optimism springs from...
This thread reminds me of how many posters hung their hats on the supposed weather research done to “prove” that no snow fell on that fateful day in October 1942. Lifted Up came on board and quietly testified to seeing TWO such heavy and extremely local rogue snow storms. Few paid any attention.
[And what HE mentioned had NOTHING to do with what we were
discussing. And we discussed THAT. We did "pay attention."
We discussed it and determined the comments were inapplicable.]
This thread also reminds me of how some posters here were looking for more dirt on VPW (a full time pre-occupation for some) and started cranking up a rumor machine that he was racist and hated Blacks.
[Actually, he himself mentioned having difficulties in that dept.
Not that I'm saying "vpw was racist", but-based purely on his OWN
words, such discussions do not lack merit.]
Then HCW came in and very forcefully trounced it to pieces with his firsthand experiences with Dr and how he didn’t have a shred of that in him. The rumor machine building quietly stopped and they went off looking for dirt in some other places. After HCW is long gone from here, I wonder how many others will try and reinvent that same racism rumor.
["Very forcefully trounced it to pieces"?
What-he used an earthmover or something?
I've noticed that you accept HCW's accounts when they
serve you, and IGNORE them the minute they don't...]
HCW also did great service in reporting how he and Mrs. Wierwille looked at India photos that substantiated Dr’s PFAL accounts of the healing at the train station. Many posters seeking dirt and lies were disappointed.
[Ok, since you insist on bringing that up again,
here's how THAT discussion went.
HCW says he saw pictures of vpw in India.
HCW says he saw crowds around a train.
HCW says he saw a guy.
HCW says he was told "this is the guy vpw healed"
and "this crowd was here specifically to meet with vpw."
He then accepted that this was EXACTLY what those single still images
meant.
However, they are not "proof".
A picture of a guy is not proof vpw healed this man-or HURT this man.
A picture of a crowd is not proof they were there to celebrate vpw.
I used to joke of travelling to Mexico every May 5th, so that the
locals of one community that deeply respected me could honour me
with a parade every year.
Those paying attention easily got the joke-
they were ALREADY celebrating, and I just thought it was all about
me.
When I brought up that single still pics don't tell a whole story
(as opposed to seeing film footage of vpw praying and an arm
suddenly healing), HCW loudly and vociferously objected.
I left the discussion-not because I disagreed-but because he wasn't
listening, and I saw no benefit in remaining in a screaming match.
I've mentioned that since, and HCW and I have had a number of
discussions-quite civil-since then. You, of course, continue to
rewrite that one to your satisfaction.
Over a year later, long after all involved parties have moved on.
Old news. ]
And some posters here think that they are objective researchers! I gotta laugh.
[And we've proven it. You however, claim to be the sole voice
of truth and fact here. It's fascinating and sad. ]
***
For the record, here’s how Dr put the navel incident in the PFAL book on page 125:
[Ok, this was worth adding to the discussion.
You couldn't JUST start down here, without tossing in innuendo, though...]
“An example of people trying to stand approved of God is a sadly ridiculous commentary on so-called Christians. Many years ago when I was doing research in the archives of the University of Chicago Divinity School, I came across a clipping from a newspaper on a denomination which had two factions. The cause of the rift was the question whether or not God origi¬nally had created Adam and Eve with or without navels. Incredible! One group said that Adam and Eve did not have navels while the other faction believed that God had given both Adam and Eve navels. The one group built a new church just across the street from the old one and called their new denomination the First Church of the Navelites. Christians bring disapproval to themselves when they become side- tracked on such irrelevant matters.”
So the only fact to research here is whether that newspaper clipping ever existed, not the actual group or church. Still, there’s testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels, as Dr accurately reported. That’s the point Dr was making.
[Actually, "the point Dr was making" was the one he said he was making.
That was how "sadly ridiculous" some "so-called Christians" can get in
their attempts to "stand approved of God". He said the clipping showed
a trivial topic that produced factionalism so great the church split over it.
He claimed there was a clipping, and the clipping
indicated the existence of such a group.
So, proof the group existed would vindicate him,
as would the actual clipping.
What does the testimony on this thread show?
A) One pastor saying "I'm passing along this story without knowing if it's
true or not."
B) One old lady said "I was in this group."
(I asked Johnny to follow up on his post.)
C) One poster saying "I've seen articles that lacked merit before and were
unchecked. Maybe it was just like them."
(Well, maybe it WAS. That means such a clipping MAY have
existed.)
Which post, then, was
"testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels"?
Please be specific. There's only a few posts to choose from.]
WW, your bias is showing.
["As Dr accurately reported".
You came to this discussion already certain there was such a clipping.
So far, no one's produced it nor seen it, and supposedly the discussion
has proved it existed, and "Dr accurately reported."
See, that's what anybody ELSE calls a "bias."
I came into this discussion saying
"I can't find any proof of this group existing anywhere online.
There's no church in existence now using that title.
There's no website using that name-or the word 'Navelite'-
anywhere I can find.
The only thing I CAN find is a few people saying they read such a
church was started-and they can't agree on what state it happened in."
I then asked outright
"Have any of you seen proof of this church?"
I also allowed for the other possibility
"Or is this an urban legend, either passed along or originated
by a homileticist..."
Since you're a stranger to discussions of urban legends,
I'll direct you to some reading material on the subject.
I doubt Wierwille made it up. Original thoughts weren't exactly his forte.
It's a gag he heard or read somewhere, and whether he read it in an actual newspaper clipping, a homiletic joke book, or an old piece of literature, it falls square into the category of teaching devices. It doesn't need to be true: it only needs to illustrate a point.
The snowstorm LIE, though, was something else entirely. That was a LIE. See, there, he LIED about something. It was an UNTRUTH, see, and that's what makes it different. See, he tried to pass it off as not only true, but as evidence of his extraordinary calling, even though it was a LIE, just like the other snowstorm he LIED about.
story about a town called Zion, Illinois, which was basically run by a religious sect. These people supposedly believed that the earth was flat and the sun was 30 miles from the earth and that you could get arrested for swearing on Sunday and that as recently as 1948 the Illinois Highway Patrol would actually warn motorists about this town. I've never heard anything about this town outside of that book.
On New Year's Day 1900, John Alexander Dowie announced to the church he had established in 1896, the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church, that he planned to build a utopian city on a tract of land at the extreme northeastern edge of Illinois.
When Zion City was incorporated in 1902, 5,000 inhabitants joined the Christian utopia. Zion City was to be communitarian and theocratic, a place of Christian cooperation, racial harmony, and strict fundamentalist morals. Dowie desired that Zion City be free of crime and vice. Dowie instituted the “Zion City Lease,” which forbade gambling, theaters, and circuses, as well as the manufacture and sale of alcohol and tobacco. In addition, the lease banned pork, dancing, swearing, spitting, politicians, doctors, oysters, and tan-colored shoes. Whistling on Sunday was punishable by jail time. The ban against medical doctors reflected Dowie's belief in “divine healing.” Many of the original settlers in Zion City, primarily of Dutch, German, and Irish origin, had been attracted to the community because of Dowie's reputation as a “faith healer.”
The snowstorm LIE, though, was something else entirely. That was a LIE. See, there, he LIED about something. It was an UNTRUTH, see, and that's what makes it different. See, he tried to pass it off as not only true, but as evidence of his extraordinary calling, even though it was a LIE, just like the other snowstorm he LIED about
RAf even though you and I have some radically different viewpoints on several things--I always admire your ability to get to the crux of a matter and state it so succinctly :)
They even had newpaper articles written about them.
They heard of this 'upstart' young preacher using them as an example in this little Bible class he clipped from Leonard.
They found out where he was and took that Bible class.
They all spoke in tongues and joined the new church that the young preacher was forming.
They disbanded their church and joined his.
So now there's no group and no record of them... except for the lady that Jonny Lingo ran into in Fargo... who probably didn't want to join up with a cult.
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Kevlar2000
I dunno, I always thought it was one of his made-up stow-reees, simply for purposes of illustration. I wasn't under the impression it was a real group.
Although, with the rise of the fringe religious groups in the '60s and '70s, it didn't seem completely implausible.
Any "innies" want to comment on this?
(I know you were waiting for that. And I hate to make people wait.
)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
urban legend for sure
:lol:
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moony3424
I found this:
Reference
And this:Another One
Yet another one
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topoftheworld
Shhhh....don't tell the Weirwillites!
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Tom Strange
I'd go with the "figure of speech" angle WW...
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Bogey76
I don't know if it is an urban legend or not, but if it is it wasn't Vic's invention. I have heard a couple of people over the years who have had no connection whatsoever with TWI who had heard about these alleged Navelites.
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Oakspear
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WordWolf
moony,
I found the second and third, but not the first.
Of course, I'm VERY curious how you found the first. :)
In other news,
none of that says anything we didn't already say.
(Not to say it shouldn't be posted at least once,
just that it wasn't new to the discussion.)
====
The first quote is a guy making fun of beliefs and heretics.
There's no guarantee he's picked a real group to mock.
In fact, given the fictions people usually mock
(like radical Muslims decrying the blood libel,
and Jack Chick decrying the satanic rpgs,
and vpw and lcm attacking pagan gods in the RCC),
my SUSPICION is that this supports the idea it's
imaginary.
======
The second quote is about "a church in Ohio in the 50's."
Frankly, I think vpw is DIRECTLY to blame for this one.
Who else was going around in the ealy 70s in Ohio claiming
there was a church some time ago that did exactly that?
Then again, maybe they drew from a common source
as vpw, as if they both read the same issue of
Weekly World News or something.
==========
The third quote illustrates my point.
It's started in Ohio-no, wait, it started in California.
(California's more believable as a source of
weird fringe-groups.)
I've noticed nobody NAMES this paper, and it's
impossible to follow up on, as written.
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markomalley
This one sounds actually a bit feasible:
From the First Baptist Church of Pendleton, SC
I've seen enough folks who were unable to say "it doesn't matter" to think that this story is quite probable, in fact.
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Oakspear
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markomalley
Exactly.
One thing that's sort of odd, though, is that I don't see this particular legend listed on snopes or other urband legend debunking sites. It's floating around enough that I'd have thought it would have been listed already.
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WordWolf
Feel free to submit it.
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J0nny Ling0
When I was in Fargo, North Dakota on my interim year, my Tenth Corps sistah and I met an old woman who told us that she was from Ohio and that she had been a member of the Ist Church Of The Navelites. My sistah and I were amazed, and told her that we had heard of that church in a Bible class. The woman was very adamant about the fact that Adam had to have had a naval. She talked of the major dissension and how people had been so hurt over it but that God made Adam and Eve just the way we are made today.
After we left her, we marveled at it because both of us had actually wondered whether or not VPW used that as a teaching tool kind of an anecdote that didn't necessarily have to be true simply to make a point. But there it sat, just like a duck. So, there is that info, for whatever it is worth...
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WordWolf
Get out!
She said this?
And she was serious and everything-she wasn't messing with you??
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OnionEater
I always wanted to know if Adam had nipples. A doctor told me that during early development in the womb a fetus could go either way, male or female, and that is why we both have nipples. That means Adam could have been a female? But I found this - http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_093.html
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mstar1
Over the years I have probably worked on 30 or 40 stained glass windows that had Adam in them, during the initial stages I always bring it up to the priest/pastor/committee to see if it is an issue or not, so far I have never met anyone in any denomination to who it is an issue or for the most part even thought of it before, in fact most look at me like I have 10 heads for even bringing it up
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johniam
A year or so before I got in TWI I found a book in my mom's house. Can't remember the name of the book but it was like that newspaper column "News of the Weird". Nothing in there about Navelites, but there was one story about a town called Zion, Illinois, which was basically run by a religious sect. These people supposedly believed that the earth was flat and the sun was 30 miles from the earth and that you could get arrested for swearing on Sunday and that as recently as 1948 the Illinois Highway Patrol would actually warn motorists about this town. I've never heard anything about this town outside of that book.
OK, that said, I think it's possible that VPW heard of the Navelites from a similar source and didn't care if it was true or not just because it made such a nice example of the point he was trying to make. But anything's possible.
As far as Adam and Eve having navels or not, it makes more sense to me that they DID.
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Out There
If they did have Navels were they innies or outies?
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Mike
This thread reminds me of how many posters hung their hats on the supposed weather research done to “prove” that no snow fell on that fateful day in October 1942. Lifted Up came on board and quietly testified to seeing TWO such heavy and extremely local rogue snow storms. Few paid any attention.
This thread also reminds me of how some posters here were looking for more dirt on VPW (a full time pre-occupation for some) and started cranking up a rumor machine that he was racist and hated Blacks.
Then HCW came in and very forcefully trounced it to pieces with his firsthand experiences with Dr and how he didn’t have a shred of that in him. The rumor machine building quietly stopped and they went off looking for dirt in some other places. After HCW is long gone from here, I wonder how many others will try and reinvent that same racism rumor.
HCW also did great service in reporting how he and Mrs. Wierwille looked at India photos that substantiated Dr’s PFAL accounts of the healing at the train station. Many posters seeking dirt and lies were disappointed.
And some posters here think that they are objective researchers! I gotta laugh.
***
For the record, here’s how Dr put the navel incident in the PFAL book on page 125:
“An example of people trying to stand approved of God is a sadly ridiculous commentary on so-called Christians. Many years ago when I was doing research in the archives of the University of Chicago Divinity School, I came across a clipping from a newspaper on a denomination which had two factions. The cause of the rift was the question whether or not God origi¬nally had created Adam and Eve with or without navels. Incredible! One group said that Adam and Eve did not have navels while the other faction believed that God had given both Adam and Eve navels. The one group built a new church just across the street from the old one and called their new denomination the First Church of the Navelites. Christians bring disapproval to themselves when they become side- tracked on such irrelevant matters.”
So the only fact to research here is whether that newspaper clipping ever existed, not the actual group or church. Still, there’s testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels, as Dr accurately reported. That’s the point Dr was making.
WW, your bias is showing.
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WordWolf
You know, for a moment, I thought you were actually
going to add to a discussion without your OWN agenda.
I don't know where my optimism springs from...
[And what HE mentioned had NOTHING to do with what we were
discussing. And we discussed THAT. We did "pay attention."
We discussed it and determined the comments were inapplicable.]
[Actually, he himself mentioned having difficulties in that dept.Not that I'm saying "vpw was racist", but-based purely on his OWN
words, such discussions do not lack merit.]
["Very forcefully trounced it to pieces"?
What-he used an earthmover or something?
I've noticed that you accept HCW's accounts when they
serve you, and IGNORE them the minute they don't...]
[Ok, since you insist on bringing that up again,here's how THAT discussion went.
HCW says he saw pictures of vpw in India.
HCW says he saw crowds around a train.
HCW says he saw a guy.
HCW says he was told "this is the guy vpw healed"
and "this crowd was here specifically to meet with vpw."
He then accepted that this was EXACTLY what those single still images
meant.
However, they are not "proof".
A picture of a guy is not proof vpw healed this man-or HURT this man.
A picture of a crowd is not proof they were there to celebrate vpw.
I used to joke of travelling to Mexico every May 5th, so that the
locals of one community that deeply respected me could honour me
with a parade every year.
Those paying attention easily got the joke-
they were ALREADY celebrating, and I just thought it was all about
me.
When I brought up that single still pics don't tell a whole story
(as opposed to seeing film footage of vpw praying and an arm
suddenly healing), HCW loudly and vociferously objected.
I left the discussion-not because I disagreed-but because he wasn't
listening, and I saw no benefit in remaining in a screaming match.
I've mentioned that since, and HCW and I have had a number of
discussions-quite civil-since then. You, of course, continue to
rewrite that one to your satisfaction.
Over a year later, long after all involved parties have moved on.
Old news. ]
[And we've proven it. You however, claim to be the sole voice
of truth and fact here. It's fascinating and sad. ]
***
[Ok, this was worth adding to the discussion.You couldn't JUST start down here, without tossing in innuendo, though...]
[Actually, "the point Dr was making" was the one he said he was making.
That was how "sadly ridiculous" some "so-called Christians" can get in
their attempts to "stand approved of God". He said the clipping showed
a trivial topic that produced factionalism so great the church split over it.
He claimed there was a clipping, and the clipping
indicated the existence of such a group.
So, proof the group existed would vindicate him,
as would the actual clipping.
What does the testimony on this thread show?
A) One pastor saying "I'm passing along this story without knowing if it's
true or not."
B) One old lady said "I was in this group."
(I asked Johnny to follow up on his post.)
C) One poster saying "I've seen articles that lacked merit before and were
unchecked. Maybe it was just like them."
(Well, maybe it WAS. That means such a clipping MAY have
existed.)
Which post, then, was
"testimony on this thread that people actually do seriously think this way about navels"?
Please be specific. There's only a few posts to choose from.]
["As Dr accurately reported".
You came to this discussion already certain there was such a clipping.
So far, no one's produced it nor seen it, and supposedly the discussion
has proved it existed, and "Dr accurately reported."
See, that's what anybody ELSE calls a "bias."
I came into this discussion saying
"I can't find any proof of this group existing anywhere online.
There's no church in existence now using that title.
There's no website using that name-or the word 'Navelite'-
anywhere I can find.
The only thing I CAN find is a few people saying they read such a
church was started-and they can't agree on what state it happened in."
I then asked outright
"Have any of you seen proof of this church?"
I also allowed for the other possibility
"Or is this an urban legend, either passed along or originated
by a homileticist..."
Since you're a stranger to discussions of urban legends,
I'll direct you to some reading material on the subject.
http://www.snopes.com/info/ul-def.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend
My bias?
Let's see.
Before I even involved anyone else,
FIRST I checked if I could find the existence of such a church.
If I found it, I wouldn't have ASKED, I would have
announced I found it, as a matter of public interest.
Having found no proof of its existence,
rather than jump to a conclusion,
Opened discussion on the subject.
I asked if anyone could corroborate his story.
Therefore,
first, I checked if I could corroborate his story.
Second, I checked if anyone ELSE could.
You, on the other hand, automatically assumed it was
corroborated.
Then you claimed I was "biased."
Most people would find that mildly ironic.]
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Raf
I doubt Wierwille made it up. Original thoughts weren't exactly his forte.
It's a gag he heard or read somewhere, and whether he read it in an actual newspaper clipping, a homiletic joke book, or an old piece of literature, it falls square into the category of teaching devices. It doesn't need to be true: it only needs to illustrate a point.
The snowstorm LIE, though, was something else entirely. That was a LIE. See, there, he LIED about something. It was an UNTRUTH, see, and that's what makes it different. See, he tried to pass it off as not only true, but as evidence of his extraordinary calling, even though it was a LIE, just like the other snowstorm he LIED about.
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moony3424
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templelady
RAf even though you and I have some radically different viewpoints on several things--I always admire your ability to get to the crux of a matter and state it so succinctly :)
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Tom Strange
You see WW... it's like this...
There really was a church of the Navalites.
They even had newpaper articles written about them.
They heard of this 'upstart' young preacher using them as an example in this little Bible class he clipped from Leonard.
They found out where he was and took that Bible class.
They all spoke in tongues and joined the new church that the young preacher was forming.
They disbanded their church and joined his.
So now there's no group and no record of them... except for the lady that Jonny Lingo ran into in Fargo... who probably didn't want to join up with a cult.
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